Summoner: An action or a dot?

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Are you from phone ? cause i dont get the commanding part, especially when later you say youd think it would be neat for them to get power upeed by egis :P. Is commanding not demanding but autocorrected?

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lol, I will attack you with my auto catcucumber.


;)


(Yes, also why I reread it and be like o.. nice). That and the new Firefox update has honestly messed up a bunch of stuff. Sometimes it suggests code to me lol. (Like variable names on the screen).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

lol, I will attack you with my auto catcucumber.


;)


(Yes, also why I reread it and be like o.. nice). That and the new Firefox update has honestly messed up a bunch of stuff. Sometimes it suggests code to me lol. (Like variable names on the screen).

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Ye i also had firefox problems , like it wasnt saving up my logins so i had to re log in everytime ,as well as change my options cause it defaulted them. I swapped to opera and now i got 0 issues

My idea for Smn overhaul would be to take away the dots and turn egis into a trance with hard casting instead of "pet actions".

The reason why Smn is such a head ache for the devs to balance and work with is because the way it works is basically like a clunky Ranged DPS. It's busted because it has to do stupid high damage or else people wouldn't bother putting up with the pet AI and button mashing if it, ya know, actually did the amount of damage you would expect from a job with that level of mobility and utility.

Seems like they really want to focus on trances so go with that, turn egis into a default trance-state and toss out the pet AI system. Each of the 3 egis gives you 2 different hard cast spells with different effects (like FBT but hard casting).

Boom, frees them up to actually make a proper Dot Mage in the future and balance them around that instead of balancing "dot mage" around all the other stuff Smn has going on.

I feel like they plan on doing something with egis soonish because that is the only reason I can see that egi glamours have never gotten an update. Maybe they just haven't figured out how it will work yet.

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Originally Posted by spf1200

I feel like they plan on doing something with egis soonish because that is the only reason I can see that egi glamours have never gotten an update. Maybe they just haven't figured out how it will work yet.

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they have indeed said they had something planned out, older players tell not to expect anything cause theyve said that before. It remains to be seen

I'm really tired of Summoner being Bahamut-mmoner. Even Phoenix is just something tied to coil of bahamut.
Some people that play Summoner they're looking for variety, you know being able to summon Lakshmi, Sophia, or Bismark? It's about time.
Morever, the egis don't provide anything meaningful, being a dot pet is boring, the pet has no meaningful influence in the fight besides aoe pulls.
Frankly, egis are just useless no matter how pretty you make them out to be as a carbuncle.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Its cause ive played most of them games that i know is bull.
Summoner on ff3, summons had a white attack a black attack and an ultimate attack, had 3 jobs the evoker, the summoner and sage with sage being able to do every spell in the game including summoning
Summoner ff4 , Ridia had Bio and other black magic
Summoner ff5 , summoner had the ability to summmon a random summon at no cost, with the magic system giving you one spot to slot another jobs spell
Summoner ff6 , Every summon gave you magic to use and upped your skills
Summoner ff7, A summon is just a materia and does nothing more
Summoner ff8, Summons give you magic and abilities that boost your stats
Summoner ff10 , Yuna the high summoner was using healing spells and protection spells
Summoner ff13 , The summons attack with you for a period of time before performing a big attack

We go to ff14 and you people make it sound like its the first time a summoner was doing more than just put a summon out. Ill tell you what ff14 summoner is, its the job finally getting what it deserves , a magic system where it can be a standalone job that explains it can do more than just summon , hate it all you like but it is a summoner in every sense of the word. It summons stuff if you want to know why summoner is able to do more than just summons go read the lore, if you cant handle dots play another job.

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The big thing you're missing is that in all of those they were different categories of magic. Summoning Magic is just Summoning. That characters are hybrids doesn't mean that the concept of Summoner is, which is true in games where you get actual jobs and not characters.

I'm... not even sure what point you're trying to make with VII/VIII/VI, none of those are actual Summoners. Same goes for XIII.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

The big thing you're missing is that in all of those they were different categories of magic. Summoning Magic is just Summoning. That characters are hybrids doesn't mean that the concept of Summoner is, which is true in games where you get actual jobs and not characters.

I'm... not even sure what point you're trying to make with VII/VIII/VI, none of those are actual Summoners. Same goes for XIII.

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Yes ofc too hell with all the other summon systems, lets just pick and choose the ones we like. And from all these titles i said you know in how many summoner is a solo job? 1 ff5, you can make the arguement of ff3 as well but summoner gets upgraded to sage gaining once again black and white magic. This summoner isnt just a summoner either, SE went ahead and created a magic system in which summoning can fit without having to be a blm that being the arcanima magic system. It may not be your cup of tea but it is for many more others. Arcanima gave summoner the out he needed in order to be a standalone job, a magic system unique to him and only him. One that doesnt play in the fanciness aspect of summoner but instead the options aspect.

When I talk about action or a dot I'm talking about the summon/pet itself. I love the dot system of Summoner and Scholar. In my opinion this game could do with more dot jobs. My issue is that the summon itself (the egis) are boring as dot "pets" that stay at your side the entire fight. Then they go and make the job even more convoluted with the demi primal system with bahamut/phoenix. But once again I have to point out, this is about the summon and its function, Leave the summoner skills as they are. As stated in the full OP, should summons be dots or a 1 time big attack summon using your job gauge (as they were in past classic FFs, except for a few like X, XI, and XII).
Some made a really great point here, the version of Summoner that has its summon at its side is not actually summoning but instead they're just walking around with a pet. A summon is a temporary entity that's supposed to return to its point of origin, that's not what we see with XIV's Summoner.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Yes ofc too hell with all the other summon systems, lets just pick and choose the ones we like. And from all these titles i said you know in how many summoner is a solo job? 1 ff5, you can make the arguement of ff3 as well but summoner gets upgraded to sage gaining once again black and white magic. This summoner isnt just a summoner either, SE went ahead and created a magic system in which summoning can fit without having to be a blm that being the arcanima magic system. It may not be your cup of tea but it is for many more others. Arcanima gave summoner the out he needed in order to be a standalone job, a magic system unique to him and only him. One that doesnt play in the fanciness aspect of summoner but instead the options aspect.

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Er... Summoner is in a whole heck of a lot as a solo job other than III and V. XI, Tactics line, others as well. And the point is that there is still a clear delineation between Summoning Magic and anything else a Hybrid character uses. It's like using Rosa as an argument for White Mages being spliced with Rangers.

And my point has never been about how much fun it is or is not, it's that it isn't a proper Summoner. Trying to appeal to me with weak pathos rhetoric like that will get you nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

When I talk about action or a dot I'm talking about the summon/pet itself. I love the dot system of Summoner and Scholar. In my opinion this game could do with more dot jobs. My issue is that the summon itself (the egis) are boring as dot "pets" that stay at your side the entire fight. Then they go and make the job even more convoluted with the demi primal system with bahamut/phoenix. But once again I have to point out, this is about the summon and its function, Leave the summoner skills as they are. As stated in the full OP, should summons be dots or a 1 time big attack summon using your job gauge (as they were in past classic FFs, except for a few like X, XI, and XII).
Some made a really great point here, the version of Summoner that has its summon at its side is not actually summoning but instead they're just walking around with a pet. A summon is a temporary entity that's supposed to return to its point of origin, that's not what we see with XIV's Summoner.

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You can make a summon interesting and have it stay at your side believe it or not. Its just a hierarchy where egis are made from a part of your aether , and demis are made from aether you trance . If we had rouse then we could maybe get an upgrade where they transform into a more powerfull form, as of now the spells we can play around are assault 1 and 2 , devotion, enkindle and their auto. Ill agree on that they dont have a "summoning" like demi bahamut where you actively have to trance, something that is less than half of what it was after they butchered aetherflow out of us, it still hurt us gameplay wise btw. However one attack summons feel like going backwards , After 10 came out going back into old style summons just feels bad, and yes i will take egis over that any time, cause egis look like they will be upgraded.

I'll keep my Egi, thank you very much.

I've always loved the concept of summoning, but the way earlier iterations of the Job present it as more of a gimmicky Black Mage has always felt lackluster.
It wasn't until summoning became more interactive that It truly started to shine, so i feel going back one-hit-wonder summoning would be a disservice to not only the job but the concept a a whole.

Given the Jobs evolution towards interactivity I always thought that a pet class would be a nice fit for the Job in an MMO, so I'm pretty happy with the general idea and think it functions well enough as this game iteration of Summoner.
Its certainly not flawless, there's plenty of things they could do better; but it's far from broken enough to require a complete overhaul - which should always be a last resort anyway. Most issues are either fixable or unrelated to the Egi in the first place, and any complaints about the aesthetics will hopefully be adressed whenever Egi-Glam are rolled out (which they've recently confirmed they are still working on btw.)

I would also like to point out that the FF-Franchise as a whole didn't survive as long as it did by blindly clinging on to tradition; the games have never been afraid to change and evolve concepts, ideas and Jobs depending on the setting, medium and technology at the time, and if I'm reading this thread - heck even the entire Forum sometimes - I feel some people would do good remembering that.
Don't get me wrong; It's fine to not like the way this game handles Summoner (or any job for that matter), but asking the devs to change it completely when theres clearly plenty of people enjoying at least the basic idea is not.

I just harken back to the origin of summoning in rpgs and ask thee to harken back to what the purpose of summoning vs having a pet is all about. You guys would be more at home with Beastmaster than with Summoner, from how I'm analyzing your preferences.
I can instantly understand why they said they would make Beastmaster a limited job now, because we already have a pet job and some don't want to seem to let go of their pet ifrit, garuda, titan.

Thought there would be more support for one attack summons, interesting that there's not.

I mean, I think you could have Egis and still make a more proper Summoner. It doesn't have to be an either or kind of thing.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

Er... Summoner is in a whole heck of a lot as a solo job other than III and V. XI, Tactics line, others as well. And the point is that there is still a clear delineation between Summoning Magic and anything else a Hybrid character uses. It's like using Rosa as an argument for White Mages being spliced with Rangers.

And my point has never been about how much fun it is or is not, it's that it isn't a proper Summoner. Trying to appeal to me with weak pathos rhetoric like that will get you nowhere.

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You think that im trying to appeal to you? im trying to correct the misinformation of what is and isnt a summoner. You cant pick what matches your point of view and then discard the rest, and this is what you are doing , especially when out of all the game a total of 3 from the main series , arguably 2 had a pure summoner , 1 of which had a system akin to current egi system, and from non main series we have a total of 4 , arguably 2 since 3 of them are an actual series, unlike the main ones which each is distinct between them.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

You think that im trying to appeal to you? im trying to correct the misinformation of what is and isnt a summoner. You cant pick what matches your point of view and then discard the rest, and this is what you are doing , especially when out of all the game a total of 3 from the main series , arguably 2 had a pure summoner , 1 of which had a system akin to current egi system, and from non main series we have a total of 4 , arguably 2 since 3 of them are an actual series, unlike the main ones which each is distinct between them.

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The point isn't whether any particular character was a pure job. The point was "can we look at these jobs and say what they actually are". And... you can. You can look at III. You can look at IV. You can look at V and so on and so forth all the way to Dimensions and get a clear idea of what a Summoner is. Whether or not any individual character was a "pure" Summoner is moot, a lot of times characters aren't purely one job in games like that. Are we to look at Rosa and say "well all White Mages should be Rangers"? Are we to look at Kimahri and say "well all Dragoons should be Blue Mages"? No, because that's a ridiculous stance. And ultimately that's what you're putting forward. We don't have any pure "White Mage" characters, yet here in XIV we could manage that. They could have done the same with Summoner.

And you're distorting information and acting like it's meaningful. I'm not misrepresenting information nor am I lying, which is what misinformation would be in this case. I can back up my case with every single game. They make it abundantly clear what falls where.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

The point isn't whether any particular character was a pure job. The point was "can we look at these jobs and say what they actually are". And... you can. You can look at III. You can look at IV. You can look at V and so on and so forth all the way to Dimensions and get a clear idea of what a Summoner is. Whether or not any individual character was a "pure" Summoner is moot, a lot of times characters aren't purely one job in games like that. Are we to look at Rosa and say "well all White Mages should be Rangers"? Are we to look at Kimahri and say "well all Dragoons should be Blue Mages"? No, because that's a ridiculous stance. And ultimately that's what you're putting forward. We don't have any pure "White Mage" characters, yet here in XIV we could manage that. They could have done the same with Summoner.

And you're distorting information and acting like it's meaningful. I'm not misrepresenting information nor am I lying, which is what misinformation would be in this case. I can back up my case with every single game. They make it abundantly clear what falls where.

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Im not distorting it, i take all the things you discarded as meaningless , cause they didnt fit your point of view and tell you they do mean something.
When they introduce yuna as the grand summoner, ready to do her pilgrimage , do you think they also put small letters below her name saying "but she can also use white magic"? ,
Do you think Rydia someone from the pure blood summoner families , shouldnt be called such cause she knows black magic as well? ,
What about eiko with her summoner horn, you know the thing literally needed to talk to summons in that universe, should we also put some small letters on it saying "actually whm".
These are all characters that according to you are moot, and shouldnt be taken into account. In almost every game there is a summoning system ,some are more different than the other like in the case of ff8 and ff13, but even then you cant just say they are moot just cause there isnt a job there called summoner.
ill say it again , what they did in ff14 is simple , instead of giving it a sub system of black magic , or white magic they instead gave summoner its own rules of summoning , that he could apply to do more than summon.
You think that its something as irrational as saying blue mages should be dragoons. it isnt because we re not talking about something as farfetched as a melee fighter and a spell caster, we re talking about 2 mages who in many iterations have shared space and now they split them apart, should bio have gone to the blm since it was categorised as black magic? NO cause it doesnt suit him, it fits perfectly a job like summoner cause unlike black magic , summoning takes time to do in this game. Summoning something that most ff games have it reduced on a cast time is now an active thing.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

Stuff

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Ah what a delicious can of worms this has become.

Also I think the point your missing is that Summoning in general changes from game to game there is no end all beat all regarding what is right or wrong. The point is calling forth monsters (of eld) to fight for you. it in the similar fashion to how technically Pictomancer is a spoof on Beast Tamer, or how SCH and RDM are two sides of the same coin when you think about it. Each job just has a "defining" trait, that sets it apart from the rest, and for SMN that's summoning.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Im not distorting it, i take all the things you discarded as meaningless , cause they didnt fit your point of view and tell you they do mean something.
When they introduce yuna as the grand summoner, ready to do her pilgrimage , do you think they also put small letters below her name saying "but she can also use white magic"? ,
Do you think Rydia someone from the pure blood summoner families , shouldnt be called such cause she knows black magic as well? ,
What about eiko with her summoner horn, you know the thing literally needed to talk to summons in that universe, should we also put some small letters on it saying "actually whm".
These are all characters that according to you are moot, and shouldnt be taken into account. In almost every game there is a summoning system ,some are more different than the other like in the case of ff8 and ff13, but even then you cant just say they are moot just cause there isnt a job there called summoner.
ill say it again , what they did in ff14 is simple , instead of giving it a sub system of black magic , or white magic they instead gave summoner its own rules of summoning , that he could apply to do more than summon.
You think that its something as irrational as saying blue mages should be dragoons. it isnt because we re not talking about something as farfetched as a melee fighter and a spell caster, we re talking about 2 mages who in many iterations have shared space and now they split them apart, should bio have gone to the blm since it was categorised as black magic? NO cause it doesnt suit him, it fits perfectly a job like summoner cause unlike black magic , summoning takes time to do in this game. Summoning something that most ff games have it reduced on a cast time is now an active thing.

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They are all characters that are not just one job, yes. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. But let's shift this a bit.

Your argument is basically that, because no character is ever a pure Summoner, there shouldn't be a pure Summoner job in XIV. Yes or no?

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Ah what a delicious can of worms this has become.

Also I think the point your missing is that Summoning in general changes from game to game there is no end all beat all regarding what is right or wrong. The point is calling forth monsters (of eld) to fight for you. it in the similar fashion to how technically Pictomancer is a spoof on Beast Tamer, or how SCH and RDM are two sides of the same coin when you think about it. Each job just has a "defining" trait, that sets it apart from the rest, and for SMN that's summoning.

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My point has never been "we shouldn't have Egis", so you're misunderstanding the point. The point is they should have Summons and only that. I can point at that throughout the series and it's true.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Thought there would be more support for one attack summons, interesting that there's not.

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If you want to get technical, Summoners are in fact -summoning- all the time in FF14, its just not something huge and flashy is all outside of trances.

Also honestly, one and done attacks are boring imo. Trances & egis are much more exciting because there's a whole ton more interactivity with them than just pushing a button and watching a fancy animation. Which also quite frankly, wouldn't work in FF14 anyway. People already complain about certain Lb3's blocking AOEs from being visible due to how grandiose their animations are(Caster LB3, AST LB3), there's no way any form on 'grandiose one and done' animation would capture the same majesty as old FF summoning without causing the same issues, meaning their 'grand attacks' would basically be on the same level as Enkindle; a small, quick animation that would be a disservice in trying to emulate old FF SMN. (which also brings up the point that part of the fun of old SMN was seeing these ridiculous 30s+ animations, where in FF14 a pack could easily be dead before such an animation could finish.)

I also found infinitely more fun with FF10's & FF12's summons (and FF13's, to an extent) than any of the old FF's purely for the same reason; having them stick around and actually feel like they're fighting with the party is much more fun personally.

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

If you want to get technical, Summoners are in fact -summoning- all the time in FF14, its just not something huge and flashy is all outside of trances.

Also honestly, one and done attacks are boring imo. Trances & egis are much more exciting because there's a whole ton more interactivity with them than just pushing a button and watching a fancy animation. Which also quite frankly, wouldn't work in FF14 anyway. People already complain about certain Lb3's blocking AOEs from being visible due to how grandiose their animations are(Caster LB3, AST LB3), there's no way any form on 'grandiose one and done' animation would capture the same majesty as old FF summoning without causing the same issues, meaning their 'grand attacks' would basically be on the same level as Enkindle; a small, quick animation that would be a disservice in trying to emulate old FF SMN. (which also brings up the point that part of the fun of old SMN was seeing these ridiculous 30s+ animations, where in FF14 a pack could easily be dead before such an animation could finish.)

I also found infinitely more fun with FF10's & FF12's summons (and FF13's, to an extent) than any of the old FF's purely for the same reason; having them stick around and actually feel like they're fighting with the party is much more fun personally.

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The irony is that the pets that stick around like demi bahamut/phoenix block the view more than a 5 second 1 time attack by a Summoner would. No one is asking for the 1 time attack summon to go through a 20 seconds attack, Heaven on high had the right idea; quick 3 second attack that looks great then they disappear. Of course it would be balanced so they don't cover the screen like that, it would be a smaller version and would appear more naturally on the field.
What you're describing with FFX, XII, and XIII is Beastmaster. Next time they make a FF mmo I'd really like them to release both Summoner and Beastmaster at the same time so people understand the difference. Square enix seems to be cannibalizing Beastmaster with Summoner in every FF since X for no real reason, they should separate them.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

They are all characters that are not just one job, yes. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. But let's shift this a bit.

Your argument is basically that, because no character is ever a pure Summoner, there shouldn't be a pure Summoner job in XIV. Yes or no?



My point has never been "we shouldn't have Egis", so you're misunderstanding the point. The point is they should have Summons and only that. I can point at that throughout the series and it's true.

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Are you going to repeat the same pure summoner , pure summoner like a broken clock? Im saying 2 things.
1) You arbitrarily picked whats a summoner , you literally said its cause of the old games that summoner exists, and youre ignoring more than half of them, cause it doesnt fit your view.
2) FF14 summoner is a pure summoner. It removed the need for it to spec on the blm, or whm school of thought by giving it its own distinct skillset of magic. THIS is the upgrade the identity of the job needed, whether you like it or not.

You talked about how in ff3 and ffv and ff11 the summoners are pure cause they just summon, but even in those games you could and should still tie abilities and magic from other jobs. in ff 3 it was sage , in ffv any other job you wanted ,in ff11 guess what , you had subjobs that you needed to equip. Now that they gave it the spells that youd have to be on other jobs to get , now it isnt a summoner?

I think even if they changed nothing, some thematic reworking could do wonders for the Summoner fantasy, just dressing the egi's up a bit to look more akin to their true forms would help and then getting rid of Ruin and the dots and replacing them with themed abilities for each of the primal's, they can do the exact same thing but It'd just feel more Summoner'y if my attacks were coming from them more.
Using Garuda as an example: Ruin 3 is now Feather rain, same cast time, same damage only the spell comes from her not me. Ruin 2/4 Air slash/Twin gales, still instant, just comes from her. Obviously I'd like more changed but even if they did nothing gameplay wise and just this I think it would really change the feel to feel more like a Summoner and less a dot mage with pets.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Are you going to repeat the same pure summoner , pure summoner like a broken clock? Im saying 2 things.
1) You arbitrarily picked whats a summoner , you literally said its cause of the old games that summoner exists, and youre ignoring more than half of them, cause it doesnt fit your view.
2) FF14 summoner is a pure summoner. It removed the need for it to spec on the blm, or whm school of thought by giving it its own distinct skillset of magic. THIS is the upgrade the identity of the job needed, whether you like it or not.

You talked about how in ff3 and ffv and ff11 the summoners are pure cause they just summon, but even in those games you could and should still tie abilities and magic from other jobs. in ff 3 it was sage , in ffv any other job you wanted ,in ff11 guess what , you had subjobs that you needed to equip. Now that they gave it the spells that youd have to be on other jobs to get , now it isnt a summoner?

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So then, your argument is that... no jobs are pure jobs, but Summoner is the only one who has to suffer for it. :P Sheesh, at least pick a reliable stance. You're making a lot of nonsense up to try to justify this.

Here is the gist of it. Every one of your points made about Summoner apply literally to White Mage. By the logic you are using White Mage should not purely use White Magic, yet it does here. And no, Stone/Aero/Water are not qualifications for it being a hybrid job like Summoner is, there are precedents for White Mage having elements outside of Light in the past which clear that, nor is Geomancer specifically those elements. Cutting off your bad argument ahead of time. So then, we are left with why they could not do for Summoner what they did for White Mage. Which is... treat it like a proper job with its own identity instead of grafting on some bizarre alien one to it on top of Summoner. And you have yet to provide an adequate explanation for that.

Let's go through the history of the series though, since you seem intent on trying to act like you are remotely an expert on the matter. There are three broad categories as far as FFs go. Jobs, Characters, and Systems. Jobs use a Job system. This first shows up in FFI and most recently with FFXIV numerically speaking. There are a lot of variations. Characters is what it says on the box. Characters have a specific way they work, you can't majorly modify them, the big difference between this and Systems is how much of a blank slate the characters are. For instance VI straddles the line between the two, as the System it uses, magicite, is pretty important. Systems are ones where the characters are, mostly, the same. They may have minor stat differences, Limits, but usually they don't have anything beyond that. FFX is one where you could argue too that it straddles the line between System and Character, because although there is a system in place the characters starting points are defined.

In all Job System games, Summoner can be mixed and matched with another job outside of FFIII (there is possibly some other exception but I'll speak generally rather than worry about maybe some obscure instance). All jobs can be mixed and matched with other jobs, this is not something exclusive to Summoner. There isn't a "Summoners must be paired with other jobs, but White Mage gets to go home free". The one exception where you can not mix and match jobs is FFIII. In the NES version, Sages are superior to all magical options. Just as Ninjas are superior to all physical options. Sages outstat Magus and Devout, not just Summoner. It isn't a direct upgrade to Summoner any more than it is to Magus or Devout. The same argument you use against Summoner applies to the others as well. The most logical answer, especially in light of the DS remake, is that Sage is its own thing. Sages mix and match schools of magic, and is closer to an upgrade to Red Mage than it is to any of the other magic jobs.

In character based games, most characters use a mix of jobs. In FFIV, the first character based game, Cecil is a mix of Warrior and White Mage (while this is the first instance of Paladin, it was still in the process of getting defined). Edge is a Thief and a Ninja. Rosa is a White Mage and a Ranger. Rydia, whom you are trying to argue against, was a Black Mage and a Summoner. Only Kain, of the original final cast, is solely a Dragoon (though this later changes in the sequel that's a whole different can of worms). Although the side characters generally manage to be single job individuals, as they weren't the feature of the game it's hardly surprising they're... not underdeveloped per say, but certainly not as robust. In IX characters again have a mix of jobs. Steiner is a mix of Knight, Mystic Knight, Holy Knight, and Dark Knight. Amarant is a Ninja and a Monk. Eiko and Yuna, as you point out, are White Mage and Summoners. Note, again, neither of them are pure White Mages, yet White Mage is again fit to be its own thing. Zidane, Freya, Vivi, and Quistis instead get one job but expanded abilities for them (or in the case of Vivi/Quina a specific command that helps them do their thing). X is one of those ones where it's a split the difference kind of case, but as the original was specifically limited to how characters advanced and the bulk of the game was that way I'll count it here. In X, again you see characters doing rather unusual stuff. Of them the only one who really works like a pure job from previous games was Lulu, she's pretty clearly a Black Mage. Tidus is an unusual Fighter who uses Time Magic. Auron is a Samurai with Knight skills. Rikku is a Thief and a Chemist. Wakka is... arguably a Ranger, with some odd Black Magic. Kimahri is a Blue Mage/Dragoon with a flexible starting point, one could certainly make a case for him being something along the lines of a Red Mage for that. And yes, Yuna is a White Mage and a Summoner. Note again that White Mage isn't off on its own. XIII as far as numerical games go is the last one that one could argue is character based, as the characters each are unique even if they have access to all the roles, it's kind of a weird one but again I would count it. None of the characters really line up to jobs specifically though outside of weapon use so it's rather moot.

Which brings us to system based games. System games usually have a broad system that lets you develop characters in whatever ways you want. There really aren't dedicated jobs, if there were it would be under the job system category. In these games you generally still see some sort of system for Summoning, just like you see something for healing/buffing/debuffing/magic damage and so on. None of these games have a job really, the best you tend to see is some limits which maybe emulate the idea of a job, but that's about it. In VI (arguably a system-based game) there isn't really a dedicated Black/White Mage or the like, the magic system is divided entirely differently. That and magic is kind of... well, a big deal, so not exactly surprising. Not really much to say as it kind of operates in its own way.

What's the sum of all of this? That, again, the points you're levying go against most jobs depending on how you look at it. In a system game no job is represented. Summoner tends to come out ahead because it usually still gets something resembling a unique presence, but there still isn't a job system in place. In a job system game all jobs are treated the same. There isn't anything specifically saying "you must pair Summoner with something". You tend to pair jobs up in general and mix and match, because that's how it works, but that isn't specifically a Summoner issue. Which leaves character based games, which is really the only one that you have as anything resembling a saving grace. Except, again, most characters tend to be hybrids. It's not exactly uncommon for people to have a diverse array of talents. And, specifically, your point goes against White Mage just as much as Summoner. Yet of the two, Summoner is the only one clearly not working like it has in the past. White Mage fits the theme, certainly tweaked a bit to fit XIV specifically, but what happened to Summoner is entirely unrelated to that. In the end, Summoner is not in line with the series, and that's specifically the issue. Instead of trying to say it is you should just accept it isn't, because your defense of it is weak and lacking in data to support it. When you're trying to claim Sage, a job that clearly is doing its own thing, as an upgrade to Summoner alone and specifically, you're making a poor argument that doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

stuff

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Whm can stand alone cause of the scale difference he has compared to summoner.
Compare Holy to alexander
Tornado to garuda
Water to Leviathan
Raise to pheonix
Same goes for blm
compare meteor to bahamut
Death to odin
thunder to ramuh
ultima to ultimate summon ( eden , knights of the round , zodiark, etc)
Not only that summoner has summons that create effects that those jobs would kill to have.
image
tri-disaster or disintegration
Sonic dive
runaway train
triple double
vanish

I... have zero idea what you're trying to argue with that. Like... that different jobs do different things? Fun? That's really moot. It has nothing to do with the argument you made.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

I... have zero idea what you're trying to argue with that. Like... that different jobs do different things? Fun? That's really moot. It has nothing to do with the argument you made.

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Why do you make me explain shit twice =.=
ok let me take everything from the start.
In your opinion this summoner isnt a summoner in line with the rest of the summoners.
Your comparison point is the times summoner was a standalone job, ff3, 5, 11, tactics , you then take the character based games , remove everything that isnt a summon and keep that as the pure summoner experience.
I disagree on you on this , cause your rule in order to work must exclude more than half the games, i instead take the fact that most of them give you more spells and tell you that summoner does more than just summon. The ff14 summoner fits inside that definition , and it is a pure summoner cause they took the spells they d usually give him ,in order to give summoner a magic repertoire of his very own, effectively splitting summoner from blm and whm which had been tied many times in the past. such as ff6 ff 9 , ff 4 , ff 3 (yes ill keep putting in sage cause he uses summons) and ff10.
You go ahead and say the same definition works on whm as well and here i tell you why it works on summoner and not whm. Summoner plays a bigger role than whm or blm, blm having an exception in ff9. In almost every game summons are different. as in espers from ff6 arent the same thing as eidolons in ff9 , summoning is something that gets rewritten depending the story. whm on the other hand doesnt have this restriction.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Why do you make me explain shit twice =.=
ok let me take everything from the start.
In your opinion this summoner isnt a summoner in line with the rest of the summoners.
Your comparison point is the times summoner was a standalone job, ff3, 5, 11, tactics

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Er... my comparison point is the history of the job in general, yes. Because even in games it's a hybrid it still has a clear representation.

And the list is a bit larger than that. You want to cite IV, IX, and X. I can cite... III, V, XI, T, TA, TA2, Dimensions, RK, likely some others. And the ones in IV, IX, and X still are clearly hybrid characters, but they do have a clear Summon versus other job aspect.

Personally when it comes to Summoner I am in agreement with the spawn for 1 quick attack. The way the incorporated it for Yuna in Dissidia 012 for example. They only spawn briefly, swipe or attack then gone. Watching my brother level Summoner and realizing that you can't even do the quests for Titan or Garuda until you have actually defeated them story wise could remain incorporated into the future expansions where you still gain traits to buff your older primal skills but defeating new ones unlock the new primal attacks/skills once you hit the level.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

I think even if they changed nothing, some thematic reworking could do wonders fro the Summoner fantasy, just dressing the egi's up a bit to look more akin to their true forms would help and then getting rid of Ruin and the dots and replacing them with themed abilities for each of the primal's, they can do the exact same thing but It'd just feel more Summoner'y if my attacks were coming from them more.
Using Garuda as an example: Ruin 3 is now Feather rain, same cast time, same damage only the spell comes from her not me. Ruin 2/4 Air slash/Twin gales, still instant, just comes from her. Obviously I'd like more changed but even if they did nothing gameplay wise and just this I think it would really change the feel to feel more like a Summoner and less a dot mage with pets.

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I agree with you wholeheartedly. Plus if they still wanna stick to egis, like you said make them look like smaller versions of actual primals. We can summon Demi-primals now. 3 expansions in and we still have egis. I mean come on. We’re not warlocks from WoW we’re summoners. I wanna feel like a summoner. I love the job. Always have but in 6.0 I truly hope they give us some love. Yes we do good damage but I love good aesthetic too. 1-50 the job is just terrible to play. Have literally no good skills. No trances. Come SE give us what we want. Where is Shiva? Leviathan? Ramuh? 3 expansions in and we still got the same ones? Really?

Egi-glam...

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

Er... my comparison point is the history of the job in general, yes. Because even in games it's a hybrid it still has a clear representation.

And the list is a bit larger than that. You want to cite IV, IX, and X. I can cite... III, V, XI, T, TA, TA2, Dimensions, RK, likely some others. And the ones in IV, IX, and X still are clearly hybrid characters, but they do have a clear Summon versus other job aspect.

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Since people keep going i guess i should go ahead and correct this. Im not citing just 4, 9 and 10 , the reason i dont write all of them in every single post is cause ive already done it. It is safe to assume that im citing those as well. Also since you want to include the whole tactics line up of games , instead of taking all 3 as one world , i guess ill go ahead and put in the sequels as well.
My definition includes: FF3 , FF4, ff4 interlude, ff4 after years, FF6 , FF7, ff7 before crisis, ff7 crisis core , ff8. ff9 , ff10 , ff10-2, ff12, ff12 revenant wings , ff13 , ff14 , ff15 .
It is also a definition where the games youre citing can also fit comfortably because a a summoner does more than just summon includes the gameplay ff5 , ff11, ff T , ff TA and TA2 has. Heck in war of the lion you cant become a summoner unless you become a blm and time mage first and even then any spell you mastered you keep it.
And like i said before on the post that you ignored half of it even though i wrote w8 a bit for me to finish at the end, Summoner isnt something you can willy nilly put labels on, cause summons play a bigger role in the world and almost every time they are different.
In ff3 they are monsters
in ff4 the eidolons are creatures living in an alternate world called Feymarch
In ff5 some of them are dead creatures , like the pheonix who came out of a dragon or syldra
in ff6 Espers where humans and animals caught in the magic crossfire of the 3 gods
in ff7 summons are just monsters you call
in ff8 they are creatures of aether that can bond with a humans conscience and the more you use them the more you forget
in ff9 they are manifestations of the planets collective memories
in ff10 they are dreams of the fayth
in ff11 they are split to celestial avatars and terrestrial avatars , celestial ones are creatures sleeping in crystals while the later are creatures serving the goddess altana tasked to protect the mothercrystals
in FF12 they are creatures created by the gods that where then cast down , bound to the realm of the mist and then corrupted
in ff13 they are creatures sent to the l'cie when they are unwilling to finish their mission, if they beat them they will join them
in FF14 they are constructs made manifest from aether and peoples thoughts
in FF15 thay are split to astrals (gods) and messengers and you have to pass their test in order to be able to summon them
in tactics they are just monsters
in tactics advance there are distinction cause there are the totema the five crystal guardians each representing a different race
in tactics advance 2 back to being just monsters
in final fantasy type 0 they are war gods that are created by the dominion of rubrum with the power of the vermillion bird crystal. And most of them kill the user by draining its life force upon summoning.
in dissidia they are just crystals you break in the battlefield and then can equip them with a cap amount of summons.
This should show you that you cant simply have a summoner that just summons, cause summoning is a job created by the circumstances of the world surrounding it. This is why you cant just call that character hybrid and that character moot and this one doesnt matter because almost every summoner is distinctly different.
Imagine if yuna had to only summon , remember the sending? boom gone all those dead spirits are now monsters. What about ff15 who needs messengers or oracle all the gods are just coming down whenever i want them too, that is if i manage to get past their test, i wonder have they considered rock paper scissors. FF8 screw remembering stuff i can now stay there wondering with my imaginary friends , FF type 0 summon one then die. FF14 screw the lack of aether the world can die for all i care the biggest the better, and what are all those spells i learned along the way , i dont need them ill fight using carbuncle and the edge of my book.
Reducing all the complexity of their gameplay and lore that has being building for years to its the guy who simply summons a big thing and goes away , its literally insulting to the job.

Biggest issue I see is not how Summoner is now, but rather how will it be going forward in future expansions.

The next expansion rolls around, what will Summoner get? There has been a pretty good level of success and popularity with the Demi primal theme, so perhaps we'd get another, like a Demi-Alexander or something along those lines. Would they try to squish more of that into what seems to be an essay-long opener, or would it be a means of phasing out the starting phase with just you and the egi? The egi may have worth from a 1.0 tradition standpoint along with some nonsense about spaghetti code, but does the egi really have any mechanical purpose or is it just there, especially when more pet actions have been taken away from the pet itself and instead placing that increased burden into the actions of the caster?

It's not because of the here and now that I think egi pets will go the way of the dodo, but because of the job going forward. Call them "iconic" all you want, but that didn't stop the "iconic" sacrificial DPS that was Dark Knight in the Final Fantasy series becoming a tank in this game or the "iconic" armored tank that was Samurai becoming a DPS in this game. Just because something is "iconic" doesn't make it ideal for a game (amirite Blue Mage fans). How or when Summoner gets that overall, I have no idea, but I'm thoroughly convinced that the job will get that Machinist-level overhaul regardless of whatever spaghetti code or other excuse there is out there to keep the job sensible and appealing to players going forward.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Demi-Alexander or something along those lines.

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I know there is holy element, but I feel that Alexander is more tied to the element of time in FFXIV, and I don't know how that would work on the level of the job system. Even AST's usage of time is boring in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Biggest issue I see is not how Summoner is now, but rather how will it be going forward in future expansions.

The next expansion rolls around, what will Summoner get? There has been a pretty good level of success and popularity with the Demi primal theme, so perhaps we'd get another, like a Demi-Alexander or something along those lines. Would they try to squish more of that into what seems to be an essay-long opener, or would it be a means of phasing out the starting phase with just you and the egi? The egi may have worth from a 1.0 tradition standpoint along with some nonsense about spaghetti code, but does the egi really have any mechanical purpose or is it just there, especially when more pet actions have been taken away from the pet itself and instead placing that increased burden into the actions of the caster?

It's not because of the here and now that I think egi pets will go the way of the dodo, but because of the job going forward. Call them "iconic" all you want, but that didn't stop the "iconic" sacrificial DPS that was Dark Knight in the Final Fantasy series becoming a tank in this game or the "iconic" armored tank that was Samurai becoming a DPS in this game. Just because something is "iconic" doesn't make it ideal for a game (amirite Blue Mage fans). How or when Summoner gets that overall, I have no idea, but I'm thoroughly convinced that the job will get that Machinist-level overhaul regardless of whatever spaghetti code or other excuse there is out there to keep the job sensible and appealing to players going forward.

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Yes I have to agree with you. They can't just slap another demi to the already tiring and overly taxing Summoner rotation without trimming something else like the egis. At the same time I don't think they can get away with not adding something new; leaving us with Bahamut and Phoenix only and no new summon in 6.0 would really feel off, so they definitely will have to go through a Machinist style overhaul with Summoner. If it worked for Machinist and they didn't care about the backlash from those that liked the original Machinist then they shouldn't worry about the egi fans either, in my opinion. They should overhaul the job to fit within the other jobs in the game. Summoner as it stands is not clean like BLM, DNC, and even RDM are, it needs changes, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Yes I have to agree with you. They can't just slap another demi to the already tiring and overly taxing Summoner rotation without trimming something else like the egis. At the same time I don't think they can get away with not adding something new; leaving us with Bahamut and Phoenix only and no new summon in 6.0 would really feel off, so they definitely will have to go through a Machinist style overhaul with Summoner. If it worked for Machinist and they didn't care about the backlash from those that liked the original Machinist then they shouldn't worry about the egi fans either, in my opinion. They should overhaul the job to fit within the other jobs in the game. Summoner as it stands is not clean like BLM, DNC, and even RDM are, it needs changes, in my opinion.

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Its not the first time smn has been reworked. This version is itself a rework that was made after they reworked him, same thing happened during stormblood this is the 4th time this job has been reworked. As for the problem the demis have it isnt cause of the egis , nor cause of the dots, its cause they are chained together. The reason as to why they did that is cause like the egis if we were presented with a choice we would go to the most damaging one every time. As for why they didnt care about reworking mch , it was cause it wasnt popular. did it fix all their problems? no they still have latency issues. Summoner on the other hand go check some stats it still is one of the most popular jobs.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I know there is holy element, but I feel that Alexander is more tied to the element of time in FFXIV, and I don't know how that would work on the level of the job system. Even AST's usage of time is boring in my opinion.

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That was mostly a "for example" thing, just naming Alexander off the top of my head for it when it could easily be any major elder primal we've seen and have a similar set of conversion effects tacked on like with Demi-Phoenix. Could be a Demi-Alexander, a Demi-Shinryu, maybe even a Demi-Eden. All it needs is the appropriate Trance and Enkindle abilities along with some spell changes and BAM, new demi primal for the next expansion.

As for Astrologian's time usage, it's either been removed (speed cards, Time Dilation) or reworked out (Celestial Opposition no longer a stun/buff extender), which I do find curious. Reminds me of a recent interview with Yoshi-P that was brought up in another forum thread about reading up on Heavensward stuff for later.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Yes I have to agree with you. They can't just slap another demi to the already tiring and overly taxing Summoner rotation without trimming something else like the egis. At the same time I don't think they can get away with not adding something new; leaving us with Bahamut and Phoenix only and no new summon in 6.0 would really feel off, so they definitely will have to go through a Machinist style overhaul with Summoner. If it worked for Machinist and they didn't care about the backlash from those that liked the original Machinist then they shouldn't worry about the egi fans either, in my opinion. They should overhaul the job to fit within the other jobs in the game. Summoner as it stands is not clean like BLM, DNC, and even RDM are, it needs changes, in my opinion.

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To be fair, I'm pretty sure the tens of 4.x Machinist fans out there didn't mind the 5.0 overhaul either, and I think they were more comfortable with doing it to Machinist because it was the least played job among all players. Summoner will be tricky because of the bigger fanbase the job has, but I think it's more a case of necessity rather than popularity. I'd also argue that it'd allow for a simpler gateway to separate Summoner and Scholar too, but that's more a "wait and see" thing.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Snip.

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Er... none of that has anything to do with the job, that's a discussion more in line with Primals. And in all of the games with Summoner as a job they manage to do that, except XIV.

i like carbruncle to be base sunmmon for summoner and the Egi to be replace with high summon which could happen rgm so that we summon summon the conside with each summon

i also like SE to work on pet jobs and improve them meaning they need put more pets jobs

for summoner
base summon
Ruby Carbruncle=high summon demi-Ifrit
Sapphire Carbuncle= high summon Demi Garuda
topaz Carbuncle high summon Titan
Amezayt Carbruncle high summon Ramuh
diamond Carbruncle high summon Shiva

this why i suggest two new jobs Ranger with Hawk companion Medic with a dog aswell bst and dragonling companion. i would dragonling more open world quest companion but after the next expansion you level at your leasure my suggest with dragonling is more base his or her skill progress on Abrittures increase mind or int make it more magic base strength for dex more pyhsical or range

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

i like carbruncle to be base sunmmon for summoner and the Egi to be replace with high summon which could happen rgm so that we summon summon the conside with each summon

i also like SE to work on pet jobs and improve them meaning they need put more pets jobs

for summoner
base summon
Ruby Carbruncle=high summon demi-Ifrit
Sapphire Carbuncle= high summon Demi Garuda
topaz Carbuncle high summon Titan
Amezayt Carbruncle high summon Ramuh
diamond Carbruncle high summon Shiva

this why i suggest two new jobs Ranger with Hawk companion Medic with a dog aswell bst and dragonling companion. i would dragonling more open world quest companion but after the next expansion you level at your leasure my suggest with dragonling is more base his or her skill progress on Abrittures increase mind or int make it more magic base strength for dex more pyhsical or range

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Ok, this definitely hits 2 birds with one stone. It satisfies those who still love carbuncle/egis as a system, and also those who want the real primals to be usable. I also like how it uses the different gem versions of carbuncle to summon corresponding summons like diamond for shiva.
I gotta give it to you, your idea wins my heart.
But if it's purely up to me I'd just return to the 1 time attack system, but your idea is definitely very compelling.