why are people so resistant to constructive criticism about the game?

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Originally Posted by Cetek14

Because FFXIV has the most toxic community, and it's getting taken over by role players who don't even leave limsa lominsa. Already most of the playerbase leaves after 2 weeks after new patch, because there is no longer that much of new content as in HW or SB.

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Now HERE are some big opinions (thought up as facts) with just a dollop of bias.

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Originally Posted by linayar

What if, in order to serve roast beef, they have to change or outright remove another entry in the menu that other people like? Does it make sense then for people to tell you that you can get roast beef at another restaurant while still enjoying the 98% that you like?

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I think the answer to both you and Shougun would be, in this hypothetical:

McD's tries it out, sees how well it sells, compares the numbers to other menu items and cuts an under performer, or an area where it feels it has enough options.
This means 1 less semi-seasonal hamburger instead of 2, but means we now get roast beef, maybe fried chicken. If these sell well, they stay on the menu.
If it bombs, well, maybe next time try a new kind of Fried Chicken or Pizza.

Boils down to the amount of money coming in. (In FFXIV terms, playtime "expended" and subs retained). They obviously want the customers happy, but at the end of the day it is a business and businesses need cash.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

haha I can totally see that concern, I was actually glass half full on that side of it- thinking that perhaps they don't want to spend loads of resources reworking things when they are taking all their lessons and preparing a new modern extremely silky smooth mmo. Like why 'fix' housing with loads of resources if they're going to be making a new mmo soon? Taking all their best work to sell the new mmo (or big dalamud expansion). Of course I could be wrong, but I think we're looking at the same glass lol.

Also no worries hiding my walls of text, thanks for putting it into the hide thing though. Sometimes I get concerned when people pinch something out and then argue about something I covered already later in the post. "I didn't say what you said I said, quote the whole thing!" XD.

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I always appreciate your posts and how positively you get things across, even when it's regarding an issue with the game (housing comes to mind). And I'll try to borrow a tiny bit of your optimism regarding any future SE MMO. If something IS in the works, I can see why they may not want to put a lot of effort into XIV right now (and we have been getting less overall..), and maybe it'll knock our socks off.

SE has enabled them. They have regularly banned players for "constructive criticism", and I mean that literally. Not someone saying it with an insult attached, "hey idiot do this.." So those "toxic casuals" assume their way is the right way, and if you dare say anything it's an immediate report to the GMs much of the time.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I think the answer to both you and Shougun would be, in this hypothetical:

McD's tries it out, sees how well it sells, compares the numbers to other menu items and cuts an under performer, or an area where it feels it has enough options.
This means 1 less semi-seasonal hamburger instead of 2, but means we now get roast beef, maybe fried chicken. If these sell well, they stay on the menu.
If it bombs, well, maybe next time try a new kind of Fried Chicken or Pizza.

Boils down to the amount of money coming in. (In FFXIV terms, playtime "expended" and subs retained). They obviously want the customers happy, but at the end of the day it is a business and businesses need cash.

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Of course, but you're speaking from the company's perspective. This thread is about why other customers might be resistant to "constructive" criticisms.

Limsa Lominsa is now the RP Hotspot? Idk, maybe my informations are outdated but last time i checked the roleplay community used housing areas etc. to roleplay or roleplay in groups far away from other players because, seriously, PvE players annoy roleplayers with their stuff as much as roleplayers annoy PvE players. xD And Limsa Lominsa is the worst spot to roleplay since it's the PvE hub and no serious roleplayer i know considers doing roleplay there.

Also, most criticism against the game especially from "outsiders" aren't constructive. Outsiders tend to see the community as this giant big blob made out of everyone in the game but seriously just cause like 100 players defend the game like their life depends on it doesn't mean they speak for the whole hundreds of thousands of players. Sorry if you all had your own little bad experience with a toxic fella but that's what it is, your own little experience which weights more cause it's your own. But the truth is...your own little experience doesn't matter when you look at the big picture, cause most players are peaceful and just play their game.

In all my years of playtime i never thought the community itself is toxic, i saw some really mean and kinda evil players but at the end...they are just few compared to the rest. So if you see so much toxic stuff everywhere you should start to ask yourself if you aren't the problem here.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

My biggest criticism is for people who want to rush through the story. I get it, your goal is to get to endgame.

But you're literally trying to rush through YEARS of content in a week / month.

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I found a lot of people who have an attitude like this come from WoW. In that game the real meat is in the end-game, whereas in FFXIV you unlock more and more content as you lvl up instead of the lvling experience simply being something you slog through until you finally can do other content (bear in mind I quit WoW at the end of WoD, perhaps this has since changed). I personally did not have trouble adjusting to FFXIV's game design, but I met some people who have and needed to have it explained to them that FFXIV doesn't chiefly focus on end-game unlike some other mmorpgs.

I will add that I wasn't a stranger to the FF series when I started this game, so this could be why I didn't have difficulty adjusting to the idea of a story driven mmo with content that gradually unlocks as you play. A lot of the single player FF games are like this so I wasn't entirely inexperienced with it. I just didn't experience it in a mmo setting before.

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Originally Posted by linayar

For me, that realization made me not as invested in the story. When I started FFXIV in early 2017, I didn't have a problem taking my time playing through ARR and HW and doing quests. But I've never been able to level via quests in WoW from 1-120. I would either go the dungeon route as soon as I unlock the level 15 dungeons or use a boost. Of course, part of that is also due to the branching nature of WoW's quests compared to the mostly linear MSQ, but a lot had to do with the fact that none of it really matters. You can enter a raid without knowing why you're there in the first place.

I always want a fresh start for FFXIV where you start at a later date and part of the MSQ (mostly because I want them to expand the job choice availability for new characters, ideally to all, present and future jobs). But as you've pointed out, there is some value to having that much story content. Of course, we now have NG+. But I think MSQ (and story quests in general) should remain a requirement to unlock contents.

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Yeah I think with NG+ even if you started later you could enjoy the other stuff on your own time which adds a really nice benefit to it.

Like trying to keep it short but I had the thought that some of the trailers could be intro concepts for your character- like you might have that snow capped mountain and an avalanche throws you off causing some memory issues. The game will quickly teach you markers and give you into later combat faster (more abilities), like you might be walking down a path when Ultima's claw shatters through reality and beam line attacks you (teaching players to move out of the way, in a slow motion like setting), then the whole world crumbles and you get voiced combat as some of the MSQ is played while you learn combat. Starting in a small unknown ishgard hamlet, optionally teaching you crafts, helping a person take their wares to the city (where you get help yourself), after some tightly made content (meant to keep strong pace and be smooth) you'll be at the gates of Ishgard where Aymeric can help guide you some over tea, and you'll get a series of quests that'll direct you to other content of the game (like visiting the golden saucer- these quests not being mandatory though and can be picked up again, just there to help send you off to other parts of the game in a friendly / logical way).

Or you might have one relating to Ascians, this one being quite a bit later... maybe too late, but you could have issues when being pulled through the void to the first and Emet personally guides you through, as you visit wild and incomplete worlds (like fragments of reality, MSQ being shown through your aether and the aether of everything else colliding together, again teaching you some key parts of the story, combat, and then leaving you with a few optional quests that'll guide you to the next location). Tweak some of the MSQ dialog after that and it'd be actually pretty neat I think.

Also another thing to add because of NG+ these alternate starts are really just extra quests for any other players, even if you don't need to start later you could just take your main character through that content. So SE can put some extra bonus in them too, ideally some item to match the theme of the start. That and if you do this you might be able to offer jobs or races in a way you couldn't normally, like starting the game as the new job "start 6.0 as a Chemist!" (or whatever job), or a race that might not have fit without a disguise in previous parts of the game (and when you have NG+ on and in the history it could apply a disguise to your character, like the Ishgard Garlean girl uses with that circlet lol).

I think there are many points in the story that'll make sense without 325 hours of back story, like I don't need to know about ARR white auracite to get what it does in ShB becaues it was both explained and self explanatory lol. The amount of depth will improve if you did 325, and paid attention (which not everyone will do at all times, I've had a few late night sleepy 2.0 era MSQ moments where I was like "what did I do last night....? lol yolo"), but with NG+ I also think players who are interested enough can do those to get greater depth at their own decision. Especially if for example they kept some big rewards behind the NG+ if you skipped it through the accelerated start (like getting free fantasia in ARR, or some of the mounts).

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Originally Posted by linayar

What if, in order to serve roast beef, they have to change or outright remove another entry in the menu that other people like? Does it make sense then for people to tell you that you can get roast beef at another restaurant while still enjoying the 98% that you like?

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That is entirely possible, but I tend to believe we are not the ones that should be SE's 'final' content planners to that scale. Like before ultimate people would be saying how it'll steal resources away and no way- but now we have it because SE decided to do that anyways. ('final' used just to note that I think people can say what they think would or wouldn't fit best but not saying something can or cannot happen and they should go else where if they want it- like what happened with SMN pre-demi / trance). SE can decide for themselves if you should go elsewhere lol.

So yes you're right it could be a thing, where the game has to do a 180 in order to compensate a desire, but I don't think many examples require that.

Like if someone wants more open world content, or another ways more personal instanced content, currently the game caters to both and there might be a shift in balance at each expansion, but neither should be telling the other to go elsewhere if they wanted more or less of something that the game clearly wants to cater to.

Yes, I think you made a real possible example, but also no I don't think players should be playing the accountant / content gate keeper :p. Like I see fairly often people with very fixed ideas of what lore can or can't do, with zero room for maneuvering, but then a month later SE proves them wrong, SMN can't do that, beast tribes can't have this, etc, etc, then SE is like 'but wait they can!". lol.

Personally think it's better we say what we wish, why we wish it, and perhaps if you've the thoughts the how as well, while not threatening SE of course. And if you legitimately hate the game then sure.. of course you should probably go play another game, but I've seen and both been personally told to play other games because a bit sour feeling about a single piece content out of a huge pile, or if a bias to a certain type that could or does already exist without a complete reconstruction of the identity of the game.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I always appreciate your posts and how positively you get things across, even when it's regarding an issue with the game (housing comes to mind). And I'll try to borrow a tiny bit of your optimism regarding any future SE MMO. If something IS in the works, I can see why they may not want to put a lot of effort into XIV right now (and we have been getting less overall..), and maybe it'll knock our socks off.

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. . . <3

https://media1.giphy.com/media/13Uqp5IGFpmDle/giphy.gif

I you, I regularly enjoy your posts. :)

Although on the optimism part I might need your help when it comes to blue mage lol. I get a bit sour and dramatic there, self admittedly.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I've not run across another MMO that forces 100% of the MSQ on you if you want to do relevant content. Even SE's only other MMO, XI, didn't do that.

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FFXI was heavily gated with the story. Sure you had access to the zones, but certain things and fights were locked behind the Nations Story/zilart missions/CoP/WoG/. One example Airpass unless you paid 400k (which at launch was a ridiculous amount) but free if you completed Rank 4 missions. As there were not any teleport crystals in place. You had the WHM taxi express which cost money provided you had the appropriate Tele crystal. CoP was also gated with the story to access the fights like Sea which was relevant back in the day. I will say this, FFXI at the start was not very friendly and very party heavy centric along with the story. However, as time moved on they definitely improved access to content for an 18 year old game and its definitely ridiculously easy to get everything done now with RoV.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Maybe I'm weird but to me "go somewhere else" just comes off as incredibly condescending and rude and almost never used in a way that feels justified. Like "I don't mean to be rude but" is almost always going to have something rude follow it.

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If you dont like the forums, maybe you should go to another place.



Ok terrible jokes aside, the issue I tend to see when this gets brought up is core aspects vs optimization aspects.

A basic way to say this is if someone came in and said "You know what, the game should be an FPS cause FPS are better than MMOs." That literally is a core aspect of FFXIV gameplay and style - to be a quest driven MMO and not an FPS. The suggestion doesnt fit and isnt 'constructive' in any way. At that point, the only answer really is "Maybe playing something else is better for you."

This doesnt mean that there arent aspects from other games that wouldnt work or improve FFXIV.

For example, the transmog format of WoW I think is broadly superior to how the glamour dresser here works and what I think would be cool is once you acquire a piece of gear, it gets added to a listing you can access at any time. This is an optimization aspect where you take an element from another similar game and apply aspects of it to this one to improve it's format without undermining its core purpose or intent. In this case specifically, it's making glamour more accessible so you can better customize your character without having to worry about inventory space.

Where people get hung up and stumble is when they make suggestions that are counter to a core aspect of the game. A specific example of this is WoW vs FFXIV in terms of MSQ and story. FFXIV is first and foremost a 'final fantasy' title and will be heavily story and narrative driven. The game is, as a result, designed around MSQ. This isnt like WoW, where youre more a spectator in events that unfold. Whether you directly participate or not, the story will progress without you. In FFXIV, you are the hero, in WoW you are a hero. This leads to differences in how the game is set up and gameplay aspects and of course it comes with pros and cons to each format. Those format differences may not be your speed, and maybe another MMO might be more suited for you in that regards. In this case, suggesting that we should scrap a core aspect of what is key to FFXIV in favor of making it more like WoW is gonna receive push back.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

SE has enabled them. They have regularly banned players for "constructive criticism", and I mean that literally. Not someone saying it with an insult attached, "hey idiot do this.." So those "toxic casuals" assume their way is the right way, and if you dare say anything it's an immediate report to the GMs much of the time.

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Rules will always be easy to abuse. Its not that SE is enabling anything, just that mods are efficient with dealing what is handed to them. They could be changed, and redone. But pettiness will always find a way.

I don't consider a lot of what some people discuss as "constructive criticism" on places like Reddit, more like "have a fit and if someone disagrees pile on them". There are things in this game I don't get and I'll gladly address my concerns.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

If you dont like the forums, maybe you should go to another place.



Ok terrible jokes aside, the issue I tend to see when this gets brought up is core aspects vs optimization aspects.

A basic way to say this is if someone came in and said "You know what, the game should be an FPS cause FPS are better than MMOs." That literally is a core aspect of FFXIV gameplay and style - to be a quest driven MMO and not an FPS. The suggestion doesnt fit and isnt 'constructive' in any way. At that point, the only answer really is "Maybe playing something else is better for you."

This doesnt mean that there arent aspects from other games that wouldnt work or improve FFXIV.

For example, the transmog format of WoW I think is broadly superior to how the glamour dresser here works and what I think would be cool is once you acquire a piece of gear, it gets added to a listing you can access at any time. This is an optimization aspect where you take an element from another similar game and apply aspects of it to this one to improve it's format without undermining its core purpose or intent. In this case specifically, it's making glamour more accessible so you can better customize your character without having to worry about inventory space.

Where people get hung up and stumble is when they make suggestions that are counter to a core aspect of the game. A specific example of this is WoW vs FFXIV in terms of MSQ and story. FFXIV is first and foremost a 'final fantasy' title and will be heavily story and narrative driven. The game is, as a result, designed around MSQ. This isnt like WoW, where youre more a spectator in events that unfold. Whether you directly participate or not, the story will progress without you. In FFXIV, you are the hero, in WoW you are a hero. This leads to differences in how the game is set up and gameplay aspects and of course it comes with pros and cons to each format. Those format differences may not be your speed, and maybe another MMO might be more suited for you in that regards. In this case, suggesting that we should scrap a core aspect of what is key to FFXIV in favor of making it more like WoW is gonna receive push back.

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Lol, you had me so hard. So evil just like all lalafe--- ;). (+1 xD)

Also I agree. If you're suggesting FFXIV should be a real time strategy game just like Starcraft 2... well thal's spherical halls you just want 100% different game lol.

Although I would argue that I think some people think they're defending a core aspect when they're not, so I still think if the purpose is constructive conversations, on both side, then "go somewhere else" should be worded exceptionally carefully or not at all.

Now if don't care to be constructive, and think "they suck so I'm going to suck too" well shoot go for it lol. But I don't give out applause for being rude because someone else was non-optimally communicating. Of course I've done that, but I wouldn't applause myself in such a situation :p (not saying I can't be immature, but I don't think it's a quality trait).

So like lets carry on your last point, and lets test if we're seeing eye to eye. I agree that FF is a story driven game, and in comparison to WoW it lives by it's story lol. WoW has lore, which may shock people, but at least when I played a long time ago it was really.. really optional and like not in your face.

Anyway, the test- I agree if someone was like "remove the MSQ, remove the connection to the dungeons, just make it some sort of side thing" that would be reconstructing FFXIV, and I would still discourage "go somewhere else" but I could see it being used. Now what about to what I say, what to you say to that? I say that I think the story is important but it doesn't have to be important to everyone and that if someone wanted to accelerate their intro into the game because the story hasn't (or may never will) hook them but they will enjoy other parts of the game that it's fine if they choose to play that way. I'm not asking you to approve the idea of accelerated starts, just to be clear, I'm just curious if you even though I said to not change the importance of the story and allow players to get in faster/harder (for those who don't need/want the 200 hour 'previously' on intro) is warranting 'go play something else'. If someone accelerated start the worse thing is they might not understand the story to the level you did. Some people play just to eRP, some people just craft, raid, and of course yeah the story is important and shouldn't be destroyed but I'm curious how liberally you'd apply "go some where else" if someone wants to experience other parts of the game and 'not' damage your parts.

If you apply it the most extreme situations like changing FFXIV into an RTS, 100% RTS mind you (since LoV is sort of that, but obviously just side content), then okay, but I still think the wording should be avoided since SE can decide for extra diversity if they want (like LoV, and yes I know that's not a super popular content lol), but if you're like "touch my content slightly in a way that isn't pro-how I feel, then you need to GIT" then obviously I'm just going to say 'slopeeeh'. In my personal experience here I seldom see "go somewhere else" used constructively or in good faith, and even when I saw someone who I feel tends to be of good faith used it (to me) I saw that they missed many of my arguments in response (assuming I didn't like the game just because of a content bias)- so the conversation would have been significantly better without it. Why risk the quality of the conversation like that unless you just don't actually care for the quality of the conversation? If you're not 100% certain of your foundation and asserting someone else departs because of your understanding, and if you don't care then I guess I don't see why I would be persuaded to continue caring for it either, in so much as courtesy and good faith or even 'having it' with said person. Just to be clear not saying it should be banned or no one can say it cause I 'dun liky it' lol, but I feel it's going to 'usually' be a poor choice and damaging to the conversation to use.

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Originally Posted by Cetek14

Because FFXIV has the most toxic community, and it's getting taken over by role players who don't even leave limsa lominsa. Already most of the playerbase leaves after 2 weeks after new patch, because there is no longer that much of new content as in HW or SB.

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What game are you playing? Who are you hanging around? I'm serious. There's so many games I can name off the top of my head that have a worse community. Also, those RPers you so desperately seem to hate, along with the people who just like being in game, doing content, crafting and gathering, decorating, helping newbies run things or even help them become raiders themselves, all make this game run too.

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Originally Posted by Gula

Rules will always be easy to abuse. Its not that SE is enabling anything, just that mods are efficient with dealing what is handed to them. They could be changed, and redone. But pettiness will always find a way.

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SE chooses how heavily to enforce their rules - which by the way cover EVERYTHING. You CAN be banned for anything and everything in this game, according to the ToS. It is better to just stay silent in this game. People can't just take some constructive criticism, or simply ignore it, they have to report the player who gave the said criticism. They know the GMs will ban players for giving it. SE bans for nonsense, so these players think they are in the right, like I said, their way is the right way.

It doesn't help that the community itself coddles these players, even when no reporting is going on.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Snip Snaps

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The discussion would then have to start going into nuance about what is being asked and why certain changes should be entertained vs others.

So, in regards to MSQ, it is one thing to say "MSQ should be completely optional and bypassable, just like how WoW handles lore and story.", and another to say "We need to address and possibly streamline how MSQ operates at lower levels because 200+ quests to get to current content can be a bit daunting for new players" The difference is one suggestion and discussion point fundamentally understands that MSQ is a core aspect of the game, where the other suggestion treats it as filler and non essential.

What I think is that it becomes appropriate to say "Play another title" is when a core aspect is make or break for the player. If you want to completely uproot a core aspect of the game to better suit your personal preferences when you have other MMOs available to you and you wont compromise in any way, that pretty much is the end of the discussion and warrants the "Play something else" response. So if MSQ is a problem for you and you just want it to be optional and no amount of meeting in the middle will work for you, then yeah, play something else. I dont think that response is unreasonable at that point. The Play something else might get more play too if the initial critique is so lopsided that there doesn't even appear to be room for discussion. So if someone was to say "FFXIV MSQ sucks and most of FFXIV sucks. This sucks, that sucks. WoW does this better. WoW is the better MMO. FFXIV Should emulate WoW.", I wouldnt find it unreasonable for people to be blunt and say "Go play WoW then."


We can try this in reverse with the titles to demonstrate. If I was on the WoW forums and I demanded that no one should be able to move from one xpac to the next xpac until certain quests were done cause it breaks immersion cause thats how FFXIV works and I like FFXIV, should I expect people to say "Yeah that sounds good"? There is a strong probability that while I may get a small bit of support, the general response will be "This isnt FFXIV and thats not how WoW works." Which would be the correct answer. On the flip side, if I said "You know, I think the glamour plate system in FFXIV might work in WoW, so we can have multiple quick access transmogs." That might be a better discussion point that doesnt undermine WoW as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

The discussion would then have to start going into nuance about what is being asked and why certain changes should be entertained vs others.

So, in regards to MSQ, it is one thing to say "MSQ should be completely optional and bypassable, just like how WoW handles lore and story.", and another to say "We need to address and possibly streamline how MSQ operates at lower levels because 200+ quests to get to current content can be a bit daunting for new players" The difference is one suggestion and discussion point fundamentally understands that MSQ is a core aspect of the game, where the other suggestion treats it as filler and non essential.

What I think is that it becomes appropriate to say "Play another title" is when a core aspect is make or break for the player. If you want to completely uproot a core aspect of the game to better suit your personal preferences when you have other MMOs available to you and you wont compromise in any way, that pretty much is the end of the discussion and warrants the "Play something else" response. So if MSQ is a problem for you and you just want it to be optional and no amount of meeting in the middle will work for you, then yeah, play something else. I dont think that response is unreasonable at that point. The Play something else might get more play too if the initial critique is so lopsided that there doesn't even appear to be room for discussion. So if someone was to say "FFXIV MSQ sucks and most of FFXIV sucks. This sucks, that sucks. WoW does this better. WoW is the better MMO. FFXIV Should emulate WoW.", I wouldnt find it unreasonable for people to be blunt and say "Go play WoW then."


We can try this in reverse with the titles to demonstrate. If I was on the WoW forums and I demanded that no one should be able to move from one xpac to the next xpac until certain quests were done cause it breaks immersion cause thats how FFXIV works and I like FFXIV, should I expect people to say "Yeah that sounds good"? There is a strong probability that while I may get a small bit of support, the general response will be "This isnt FFXIV and thats not how WoW works." Which would be the correct answer. On the flip side, if I said "You know, I think the glamour plate system in FFXIV might work in WoW, so we can have multiple quick access transmogs." That might be a better discussion point that doesnt undermine WoW as a whole.

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I guess ultimately I think the story is a core design but isn't required to be core enjoyed by a player to enjoy the game. In the sense that if you allowed a player to bypass say ARR / HW and start in SB that there would be nothing wrong with that if 'that' is what the player wanted. So allowing people to optionally round a core if they want isn't worth telling them to go somewhere else so long as the core remains for those who wanted it.

Not for me to say otherwise if all you do in this game is stand in front of your house and chat that doesn't mean to me you played the game wrong even if it's hardly the core of the game.

Core design, to me, is different than the core of the game for each person. Core design one should be a bit careful shifting (careful meaning it can shift but.. be careful haha), but core to each person, if it doesn't require the design to change, then I don't care what it ends up looking like to each individual.

Might argue players don't know what they want and the devs need to teach them, which might be condescending, true, and false all at once lol- so maybe some cores need to be forced but given this is a themepark I tend to not care as much to force an experience (but if you told me there is value in forcing an experience, then I would say I'm listening and likely agree to some points- dark souls is dark souls because they didn't budge and make an easy mode slider in the beginning, it could be more casual friendly but the game would feel different then).

So I guess if you told someone to go somewhere else I would be annoyed :P. Although if you were like "bla bla bla actually has everything you're looking for, I think you'll really enjoy it" I might think you were attempting to be sincere but I think that line would be really thin, because in general I still think telling someone to go else where is just a great way to throw a boulder into the conversation. "I'm done with this, Hyaah!". Maybe some people deserve a boulder, but if you toss it at someone who didn't due to a misunderstanding- well that's a bit sad and unfortunate. Of course if they go with 'sucks sucks sucks, it all sucks' like in your example they're already throwing boulders at the start of the conversation so.. they already started the damage from the get go, but that's a very clear example and we'd just have to agree being disgruntled or disappointed isn't the same as 'sucks sucks sucks, fire the dev team' lol.

To avoid changing this thread into MSQ over what I've already done, sorry OP lol, I'll stop on the topic as Skivvy was being polite to do. Apologize for the minor derail, but I think we'll disagree. But at least it wasn't hateful disagreement haha.

+1 for polite response, but don't you ever tell my boco or me to garden somewhere else! ;)

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Originally Posted by Infindox

What game are you playing? Who are you hanging around? I'm serious. There's so many games I can name off the top of my head that have a worse community. Also, those RPers you so desperately seem to hate, along with the people who just like being in game, doing content, crafting and gathering, decorating, helping newbies run things or even help them become raiders themselves, all make this game run too.

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Same logic as cartoons only being for children no exceptions. Roleplayers are an easy target for being different and therefore people get a high off insults and being the big boy in town with 0 context.

So what if you pay a sub to run Savage and get an RP glam. Youre not a REAL player. So what if the animation industry has been tailored to adults throughout its history, its not real entertainment beyond what children watch.

Get me?

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Originally Posted by Cetek14

Because FFXIV has the most toxic community, and it's getting taken over by role players who don't even leave limsa lominsa. Already most of the playerbase leaves after 2 weeks after new patch, because there is no longer that much of new content as in HW or SB.

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I guess the fc full of rpers on jenova who have tons of ultimate raiders must not be a thing then.

Sorry, I guess I was just seeing things.


There are good and bad rpers just likely every other community of people in the game.

There are good and bad casual players, good and bad crafter/gatherers, mentors especially, etc.

This comment you made just shows extreme bias.

I admit to making fun of rpers a lot, but I don't actually think they are all bad. I'm just tired of seeing brothel adverts.

We all rp to a degree when playing these games after all.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

What game are you playing? Who are you hanging around? I'm serious. There's so many games I can name off the top of my head that have a worse community. Also, those RPers you so desperately seem to hate, along with the people who just like being in game, doing content, crafting and gathering, decorating, helping newbies run things or even help them become raiders themselves, all make this game run too.

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I think one of the best things people can do to ensure a more favorable in-game experience is to not spend a lot of time on the forums. Quite often people go to forums to complain, vent, share ridiculous experiences, fight with others (don't recommend this, but some people just don't know how to converse properly), air grievances, etc. That's all to be expected, but it can definitely skew your opinion of the playerbase and the game as a whole.

It's a bit like watching the news. The news quite often feels like it's 25 minutes of highlighting all the horrible stuff happening around the world, then you have 2 minutes for weather and one quick feel good story and you're done! If that's all you took in during your day, you'd start thinking the majority of people are awful and the world needs a reset button. There's a lot of good out there, but it's difficult to see when you're constantly bombarded with the bad.

So if you're new to the forums, escape now! Or at least try to not take this place too seriously. It's far too late for me at this point, but we may be able to save some of you! ;)

yOu dOnT pAy fOr mY sUb

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

SE chooses how heavily to enforce their rules - which by the way cover EVERYTHING. You CAN be banned for anything and everything in this game, according to the ToS. It is better to just stay silent in this game. People can't just take some constructive criticism, or simply ignore it, they have to report the player who gave the said criticism. They know the GMs will ban players for giving it. SE bans for nonsense, so these players think they are in the right, like I said, their way is the right way.

It doesn't help that the community itself coddles these players, even when no reporting is going on.

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People are arguing about criticism towards the game not towards the players.
I fully agree with you that the casual community for this game is a bad joke and I don't know how many times on Frontline I've had to read "I'm just coming for my exp" when someone tries to win.

But people are discussing the criticisms of the game that many times try to turn this game into another.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

People are arguing about criticism towards the game not towards the players.
I fully agree with you that the casual community for this game is a bad joke and I don't know how many times on Frontline I've had to read "I'm just coming for my exp" when someone tries to win.

But people are discussing the criticisms of the game that many times try to turn this game into another.

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Oh yeah, I missed that (I skim quite often). I've experienced this myself before when I created a thread criticizing ARR in the past. This community acts like this game is sacred, or perfect. "Go play something else" is like their favorite line. To them it's better to not touch or change anything. So I probably agree with the OP's sentiment (still haven't read it).

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Oh yeah, I missed that (I skim quite often). I've experienced this myself before when I created a thread criticizing ARR in the past. This community acts like this game is sacred, or perfect. "Go play something else" is like their favorite line. To them it's better to not touch or change anything. So I probably agree with the OP's sentiment (still haven't read it).

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Yeah, this is very much what I meant. I made this post mostly because I was thinking about how I'd see a lot of new players in the ffxiv discord talking about how they didn't enjoy arr due to the amount of fetch quest bloat in it, and a lot of people would respond with stuff like "well, the story is the point of the game; if you don't like it, then maybe this game isn't for you," and "dev resources are limited, so they can't change it" and so on. It just seems strange to me, because these new players obviously liked the game, they just had issues with certain parts of it, and in hindsight it was pretty valid criticism if the devs ended up deciding to clean up arr.

Like, I do understand that there are limited resources for the production of this game, and I don't want to get the content I specifically want at the cost of someone else's enjoyment. I just wish that when someone makes a comment or starts a discussion about what they'd personally like to see from the game, people could politely explain why it wouldn't work, or explain why they don't think it would be a good idea, instead of just automatically assuming that it's coming from a place of toxicity and disregarding it.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

People are arguing about criticism towards the game not towards the players.
I fully agree with you that the casual community for this game is a bad joke and I don't know how many times on Frontline I've had to read "I'm just coming for my exp" when someone tries to win.

But people are discussing the criticisms of the game that many times try to turn this game into another.

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Not trying to be a contrarian intentionally, but I feel that the majority of criticisms of the game are typically well-deserved and not just trying to make XIV another game, but this of course is going to be rather subjective.

I can only speak for myself, but at times it's really hard to NOT compare all the little flaws and questionable choices in-game when you've seen similar systems implemented in far superior ways in their competition.

I'd like to think that most of us who bother posting do so because we want to see the game really shine, not because we get some sort of thrill by bashing a game that we all pay to play.

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Originally Posted by Hanaya

Yeah, this is very much what I meant. I made this post mostly because I was thinking about how I'd see a lot of new players in the ffxiv discord talking about how they didn't enjoy arr due to the amount of fetch quest bloat in it, and a lot of people would respond with stuff like "well, the story is the point of the game; if you don't like it, then maybe this game isn't for you," and "dev resources are limited, so they can't change it" and so on. It just seems strange to me, because these new players obviously liked the game, they just had issues with certain parts of it, and in hindsight it was pretty valid criticism if the devs ended up deciding to clean up arr.

Like, I do understand that there are limited resources for the production of this game, and I don't want to get the content I specifically want at the cost of someone else's enjoyment. I just wish that when someone makes a comment or starts a discussion about what they'd personally like to see from the game, people could politely explain why it wouldn't work, or explain why they don't think it would be a good idea, instead of just automatically assuming that it's coming from a place of toxicity and disregarding it.

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Well SE did take some bloat out of ARR this last patch, which I think is fine. There was a lot of running around that didn't really need to be there anymore.

As for people saying go play another game - that's probably because within the last year or so there have been a LOT of new people come to the game (which is good) but there have been a fair amount of those new people that have also said (to paraphrase) "I don't like the story. I don't want to do it. It should all be optional and SE should change it and let me just do the stuff I want to do. They should make FFXIV like (insert random MMO name here)." And the story is a fundamental design of the game. And people who enjoy the fundamental game design are most likely tired of new people coming in and complaining about it and wanting the fundamental game design changed to be the same as the MMO they just left.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Not trying to be a contrarian intentionally, but I feel that the majority of criticisms of the game are typically well-deserved and not just trying to make XIV another game, but this of course is going to be rather subjective.

I can only speak for myself, but at times it's really hard to NOT compare all the little flaws and questionable choices in-game when you've seen similar systems implemented in far superior ways in their competition.

I'd like to think that most of us who bother posting do so because we want to see the game really shine, not because we get some sort of thrill by bashing a game that we all pay to play.

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This comment is what I mean. The game has a lot of problems stemming from having a fool in 1.0 but the talk that many have had here refers to this sort of thing.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5413464

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Originally Posted by Nayout

This comment is what I mean. The game has a lot of problems stemming from having a fool in 1.0 but the talk that many have had here refers to this sort of thing.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5413464

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I really, really wish I could remember what thread this was in, but awhile back I had read a couple of posts that had actually claimed ARR was built entirely independent of 1.0's coding. I've only seen it mentioned that one time, but at least one of the comments came from a more regular-poster here who generally has well-thought out posts, so it wasn't something I'd normally discredit right off the bat........................but that's all I can remember.

Super helpful, I know! BUT MAYBE someone with some insight will come along and be like "oh yes, here's the info!" or "nahhhh, that was proven to not be true". Maybe it was an April Fool's joke..who knows! :( I'd be really curious to find that thread again, but I wouldn't even know where to start my search.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I really, really wish I could remember what thread this was in, but awhile back I had read a couple of posts that had actually claimed ARR was built entirely independent of 1.0's coding. I've only seen it mentioned that one time, but at least one of the comments came from a more regular-poster here who generally has well-thought out posts, so it wasn't something I'd normally discredit right off the bat........................but that's all I can remember.

Super helpful, I know! BUT MAYBE someone with some insight will come along and be like "oh yes, here's the info!" or "nahhhh, that was proven to not be true". Maybe it was an April Fool's joke..who knows! :( I'd be really curious to find that thread again, but I wouldn't even know where to start my search.

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There was an interview a long time ago where they talk about how 2.0 was rebuilt "from the ground up" (I just search for 2.0 rebuild ground up and got a couple hits referencing the old lodestone which no longer exists so I can't link the direct source)

However, they had to make sure 1.0 character data was compatible, so I'm sure there was some messy translation layers in there, making doing certain things more difficult that would otherwise not be.


They pretty much can't do anything that would break that 10 compatibility layer, or legacy characters might have tons of issues., if I had to guess. This is likely where the "spaghetti code" reference comes from. Not the engine or coding of arr+ itself, but the layer that translates 1.x data to 2.x

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

There was an interview a long time ago where they talk about how 2.0 was rebuilt "from the ground up"

However, they had to make sure 1.0 character data was compatible, so I'm sure there was some messy translation layers in there, making doing certain things more difficult that would otherwise not be.


They pretty much can't do anything that would break that 1 0 compatibility layer, or legacy characters might have tons of issues., if I had to guess.

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Let me preface this by saying I have absolutely no coding/programming knowledge of any sort, and it will be evident in my next sentence. lol. But is what you're saying is that it would be possible to actually build ARR completely 'fresh' so to speak with new coding, but have to tweak things in a weird way to make it compatible with/transfer legacy characters properly?

The 1.0 coding gets blamed for many, many things by this community - but to my simple mind it doesn't seem like making legacy characters work in a new game, if that was their main hurdle, could have THAT far of a reach. But again, I know nothing in this field so I could be incredibly off-base here.


Just saw your edit, so if that's the case, I'm thinking there's a strong chance that's probably what the other thread had been talking about.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Let me preface this by saying I have absolutely no coding/programming knowledge of any sort, and it will be evident in my next sentence. lol. But is what you're saying is that it would be possible to actually build ARR completely 'fresh' so to speak with new coding, but have to tweak things in a weird way to make it compatible with/transfer legacy characters properly?

The 1.0 coding gets blamed for many, many things by this community - but to my simple mind it doesn't seem like making legacy characters work in a new game, if that was their main hurdle, could have THAT far of a reach. But again, I know nothing in this field so I could be incredibly off-base here.


Just saw your edit, so if that's the case, I'm thinking there's a strong chance that's probably what the other thread had been talking about.

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Its a lot like how bad the Mac client runs right? It's a translation of the windows client, and directx, into something Mac can run. And it's bad. Real bad. A Mac client built from the ground up would run way better.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Not trying to be a contrarian intentionally, but I feel that the majority of criticisms of the game are typically well-deserved and not just trying to make XIV another game, but this of course is going to be rather subjective.

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It's also worth noting that the most successful MMO, to date, is World of Warcraft. A game which took ideas from other MMO's and refined them. It's perfectly possible for FFXIV to do the same thing without losing its core identity.

Others have pretty much already covered it in that FF14 is a game that has a pretty firm presence at this point. Mature and constructive criticism should always be welcome (and goodness knows there are some elements where FF14 could stand to improve) but if your suggestions clearly go against the game as it has been established for years now then, for your own mental state, it would probably be best not to expect it to change too substantially at this point.

It do find it a little funny how players who play the game a lot and enjoy many aspects of the game are usually the ones called out as being too emotionally attached. Personally, I think that label much better fits players who only enjoy maybe 10% of the game and yet constantly expect and demand that the rest of the game be changed to fit what they want just so they can feel validated in spending more time playing it. Clearly if you were less connected at the hip you'd be okay with just enjoying the parts of the game you do enjoy while finding something else to do with the rest of your free time.

To be clear, being too emotionally attached to the game is not a good thing regardless but if you clearly don't even enjoy most of the content the game includes yet feel some need to play it anyway then perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to throw stones.

I'd say a fair amount of it is presentation. A large amount of things on here whether constructive criticism or not are written in a way that sounds like a 4 year old child crying because mom told them they werent allowed to have a piece of candy.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's also worth noting that the most successful MMO, to date, is World of Warcraft. A game which took ideas from other MMO's and refined them. It's perfectly possible for FFXIV to do the same thing without losing its core identity.

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There's a number of arguements that WoW is more of a display on how successful Blizzard's marketing department is rather than a display of their skill in making games. WoW was essentially just a bunch of stuff they copied from other MMO's then wrapped in a Warcraft box. As to whether or not WoW is the most successful MMO to date. That too is also debatable depending on how you value various criteria.

The other thing with ARR's coding issues is that it doesn't just suffer from "1.0 code" but the fact that 2.0 was assembled in a hurry, with shortcuts made that seemed like a good idea at the time but have restricted what they can do as the game gets bigger.

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Originally Posted by linayar

outright remove another entry in the menu

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The Big Mac can go. Such a weak-ass burger. Ain't even that big either.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's also worth noting that the most successful MMO, to date, is World of Warcraft. A game which took ideas from other MMO's and refined them. It's perfectly possible for FFXIV to do the same thing without losing its core identity.

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The problem with Wow is that it is too experimental, many systems are totally deleted or changed between expansions and many progression systems do not last more than 2 expansions causing many ideas to end up being complete garbage or end up being a genius.
Many Wow players have stayed in FFXIV because the equipment system is very similar to that of Wotlk / Cata with a system of points or medals to buy equipment, a system that I love and that I totally prefer the one created in Legion.

On the flip side, there are also people misconstruing unwanted advice / selfish criticism (critiquing parts of the game as inconvenience for them where in reality those parts are enjoyed by large amount of people as well) as "constructive criticism" or that disagreement with their opinion is immediately considered as "whining" or "refusal to accept constructive criticism"

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Originally Posted by Nayout

The problem with Wow is that it is too experimental, many systems are totally deleted or changed between expansions and many progression systems do not last more than 2 expansions causing many ideas to end up being complete garbage or end up being a genius.

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While I'm no fan of constantly swapped out 'borrowed power' systems (Artifact Weapons in Legion, Azerite gear in BfA, Conduits in Shadowlands), I'm not sure I can think of any that have had nearly the negative reception of, well, the majority of XIV's side-content? The most notorious of them all, the Garrisons, amounted to the same complaint people had about housing here, if a bit more intense: "Where'd all the people I used to see in cities and the open world go?"

That Azerite gear forced us to focus on a single spec (or pay gold fees to swap it around) isn't particularly different from the gear optimization issues in, say, leveling WAR vs. non-WAR tanks now in XIV. You want to play Outlaw Rogue optimally, former Subtlety Rogue? Pay up. You want that DHit back for optimal PLD play? Pay up. You want to be able to fully progress both tank and healer at the same time? Well, you're going to need a second character for that (or, in WoW's case, gold fees on a hybrid class, although there's truly no way around the weekly caps in XIV short of making a second character).