5.3 Preliminary Patch Note

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And why would this be a bad thing? People learn at different rates and aoe markers do nothing but make the game more accessible.

The whole "It was hard in my time / it was hard for me so it HAS to be hard for everyone else" is nothing more than gatekeeping and it needs to end.

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I've never seen anyone not get through it. There are more wipes to trash and the other two bosses.

Collectable Synthesis is going away completely. No more forgetting to turn it on when you start crafting collectables. All previous items that required it will no longer be a collectable.

All in all I am in favour of the Coincounter being changed. I 100% appreciate enemies not having telegraph markers, though it felt weird the first cyclops most players would fight would be the one with lethal attacks. A better change would have been to lower the damage and have vuln stacks, since it's still weird it's going to be doing more damage than basically any other cyclops in any dungeon, but hey I think we are better off now than we were before the patch.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

"Attacks by the Coincounter in Aurum Vale will now have action indicators."

Well, I be damned, telegraphs for mister multikill himself.

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The end of an era.

I've heard theories that the coincounter aoes will be like the cyclops aoes in AA, in other words they only appear at the last moment more to let you know how you messed uo the mechanic. Sorta like starboard/larboard on Omega

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

I've heard theories that the coincounter aoes will be like the cyclops aoes in AA, in other words they only appear at the last moment more to let you know how you messed uo the mechanic. Sorta like starboard/larboard on Omega

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That's not a bad idea, since it lets you know, "This move does this. Prepare in advance for next use."

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Originally Posted by MsQi

I've never seen anyone not get through it. There are more wipes to trash and the other two bosses.

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The Arum Vale experience:

START
Tank runs ahead, over pulls, wipe.
Tank is more careful, Healer gets yeeted by a toad, over pull and A. Desperate struggle or B. Wipe.
First boss (when you get to it) is a breeze.
Repeat the first two steps and in the case of Morbols, oops Bad Breath.

No one's wiping to Coin Counter unless the healer is literally not paying attention or asleep.

The Coincounter change is yet another sign that the designers are kind of hopeless...

There are many other bosses with invisible AoE, even at lower level (Chimera), and Coincounter isn't the most dangerous thing in Aurum Val. So the change feels kind of random.

But that's not even the most important. The problem is the (probable) reason for the change. If they were really worried about helping newbies, some unimportant change to some bosses solves nothing. What they'd really need to do is to work on a coherent progression through the whole game, instead of constantly dumbing down every "older" content.

I think coincounter is a good change.

Those attacks really only screwed over melee DPS, and a 360 instant kill that isn't telegraphed is just dumb. Any mechanic that gives you no opportunity to react without prior knowledge, and basically instant kills you is BS. It isn't some grand learning experience for new players; it's just an annoying unavoidable death to a mechanic they're not likely to see in any future content.

First off what the crap is with them giving us the ability to change movies just to take it away... it reminds me of the "Devi's Advocate"

"...I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, f*&kin' a$$ off! He's a tight-a$$! He's a SADIST!..."

And secondly I thought I read somewhere that the next stage of the the relic tool's were going to be released with this patch.. Did I miss that in the notes?

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Originally Posted by Eric_Riot

First off what the crap is with them giving us the ability to change movies just to take it away... it reminds me of the "Devi's Advocate"

"...I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, f*&kin' a$$ off! He's a tight-a$$! He's a SADIST!..."

And secondly I thought I read somewhere that the next stage of the the relic tool's were going to be released with this patch.. Did I miss that in the notes?

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Remember there is 5.3, 5.31, and 5.35 coming out. The relic is in 5.35

OooOooO I C. Ty

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I think coincounter is a good change.

Those attacks really only screwed over melee DPS, and a 360 instant kill that isn't telegraphed is just dumb. Any mechanic that gives you no opportunity to react without prior knowledge, and basically instant kills you is BS. It isn't some grand learning experience for new players; it's just an annoying unavoidable death to a mechanic they're not likely to see in any future content.

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it takes about 4 seconds to charge and its called 10,000 tonne swing for a reason. Of course its going to hurt and its going to kill and maim. But then again, you can still stun it to prevent it from happening. This I never got why tanks or melee never used their stuns for it. It wasn't that hard of a telegraph to pick up on. I killed me once and I learned ot haul butt when that moved charged or stun it.

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

it takes about 4 seconds to charge and its called 10,000 tonne swing for a reason. Of course its going to hurt and its going to kill and maim. But then again, you can still stun it to prevent it from happening. This I never got why tanks or melee never used their stuns for it. It wasn't that hard of a telegraph to pick up on. I killed me once and I learned ot haul butt when that moved charged or stun it.

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A lot of attacks that don't straight up kill you sound powerful, and nothing about it's name or cast time gives any impression that it's a 360 degree attack or that it's even avoidable.

Mechanics that just straight up murder you should at least have tells. If they want it to be a mechanic where you can only piece it together after the fact then they should reduce the damage.

That's one thing about this game that's always annoyed me; the "Youtube it first or you're going to die to some obtuse 1-hit kill mechanic that gives you no clue how to avoid it," approach to difficulty. Dying to BS annoys me, even if it rarely matters in the grand scheme of a runs success.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

"Attacks by the Coincounter in Aurum Vale will now have action indicators."

Well, I be damned, telegraphs for mister multikill himself.

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NOOO! I actually figured him out way back when, now all my casual hard work is...is...meh. Cool update. I still enjoy fighting him from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

Who is running AV for the enjoyment of Coincounter's iconic no indicator attacks anyway?

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*Raises both hands*

But I still agree with this change. Ground AOE indicators are pretty.

Really says a lot about this game current community.

Last-second AOEs for the Coincounter would be great. While I understand how to dodge the attacks, it's still not clear exactly how much ground they cover and how far you need to run to be sure you're safe.

They're a learning tool. Instead of having no idea what hit you or where you needed to go to dodge it, you see the ground marker and understand what it was, and can start to connect that with the attack names.

If I'm reading this correctly, the ARR NG+ is going to be pushed back to the next patch or so. Bit bummed about that as I did actually want to give the story a try, but I've waited this long...what's a bit longer? :P

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I think coincounter is a good change.

Those attacks really only screwed over melee DPS, and a 360 instant kill that isn't telegraphed is just dumb. Any mechanic that gives you no opportunity to react without prior knowledge, and basically instant kills you is BS. It isn't some grand learning experience for new players; it's just an annoying unavoidable death to a mechanic they're not likely to see in any future content.

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It's an early stage teacher and I'm guessing you haven't done Rathalos or any side content whatsoever. Also it's honestly stupid to make or go into content and just know what to expect all the time. Otherwise why do it? What is there to gain other than tomes? It's something to learn and adapt to. Otherwise just play a walking simulator.

Personally I'd like to see more bosses that require you to look at what they're doing to figure out what ability they're using. It's an important tool that helps immensely in tougher fights - and allowing more players to get used to such mechanics will allow them to be used more often in future content.

The Aurum Vale has legitimately been one of my favourite dungeons since the days of ARR. It's a real shame that it has been slowly gutted over time.

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Originally Posted by Gula

It's an early stage teacher and I'm guessing you haven't done Rathalos or any side content whatsoever. Also it's honestly stupid to make or go into content and just know what to expect all the time. Otherwise why do it? What is there to gain other than tomes? It's something to learn and adapt to. Otherwise just play a walking simulator.

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A mechanic that has no tells and kills you outright isn't a teacher; it's just an extremely lazy method of creating difficulty.

If you want to create a mechanic with no tells, that forces you to adjust after the fact, then it absolutely should NOT be a 1 hit kill. A mechanic giving you no opportunity to adjust and learn doesn't exist to teach; it exists to be a cheesy unavoidable death for new players.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

A mechanic that has no tells and kills you outright isn't a teacher; it's just an extremely lazy method of creating difficulty.

If you want to create a mechanic with no tells, that forces you to adjust after the fact, then it absolutely should NOT be a 1 hit kill. A mechanic giving you no opportunity to adjust and learn doesn't exist to teach; it exists to be a cheesy unavoidable death for new players.

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There aren't really any mechanics in the game that lack a tell. Even those without orange AoE indicators have a specific tell attached to them. Usually involving the enemy in question moving or standing a certain way. To say nothing of the fact that there's usually a cast bar.

Typically people learn through trial, error and memorisation.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There aren't really any mechanics in the game that lack a tell. Even those without orange AoE indicators have a specific tell attached to them. Usually involving the enemy in question moving or standing a certain way. To say nothing of the fact that there's usually a cast bar.

Typically people learn through trial, error and memorisation.

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If there's a visual tell, or something in it's name/castbar, that informs you coincounters attack will be a 360 degree avoidable AoE from his center then I stand corrected. Otherwise it's just a cheeseball unavoidable death with no tell as to what it is.

If the point of the attack is that you HAVE to be hit by it to learn what it does and adjust accordingly, then it PROBABLY shouldn't kill you in one hit.

I know this is a minor thing, but I’m really glad I get to increase the mouse cursor size. I lose it sometimes during big fights in dungeons and raids with all the effects going on.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I know this is a minor thing, but I’m really glad I get to increase the mouse cursor size. I lose it sometimes during big fights in dungeons and raids with all the effects going on.

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You're not alone. That was probably the unknown thing in the patch notes that made me the happiest.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

If there's a visual tell, or something in it's name/castbar, that informs you coincounters attack will be a 360 degree avoidable AoE from his center then I stand corrected. Otherwise it's just a cheeseball unavoidable death with no tell as to what it is.

If the point of the attack is that you HAVE to be hit by it to learn what it does and adjust accordingly, then it PROBABLY shouldn't kill you in one hit.

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Do you know what a tankbuster is? I would think so, since you have an 80 DRK. The person healing you does not need to be told what nearly killed you every time it happens, there is no AOE, and you, playing DRK, should know when to use TBN. By your argument, tankbusters fall into not having indication you're about to be hit with visuals.

Telegraphed attacks, especially one's with a big arm swipe like Hades', are learned and adapted into later content. They're the tank busters for the party.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And why would this be a bad thing? People learn at different rates and aoe markers do nothing but make the game more accessible.

The whole "It was hard in my time / it was hard for me so it HAS to be hard for everyone else" is nothing more than gatekeeping and it needs to end.

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No, just no. There has to be a limit and a point where you gotta improve...

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

If there's a visual tell, or something in it's name/castbar, that informs you coincounters attack will be a 360 degree avoidable AoE from his center then I stand corrected. Otherwise it's just a cheeseball unavoidable death with no tell as to what it is.

If the point of the attack is that you HAVE to be hit by it to learn what it does and adjust accordingly, then it PROBABLY shouldn't kill you in one hit.

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I mean without the harsh punishment it's at best annyoing, and at worst ignoreable.

You dont' lose much by dying. This isn't some crap game where you lose hours of progress in unrelated content if you die anywhere (deleveling). You simply just have to get up and try again and learn from your mistakes.
If you want to progress, pass the test and just don't get hit by the thing you know kills you.

If you couldn't learn by dying in one hit to an untelegraphed attack, no one would be able to clear extremes/savages.

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Originally Posted by Gula

Do you know what a tankbuster is? I would think so, since you have an 80 DRK. The person healing you does not need to be told what nearly killed you every time it happens, there is no AOE, and you, playing DRK, should know when to use TBN. By your argument, tankbusters fall into not having indication you're about to be hit with visuals.

Telegraphed attacks, especially one's with a big arm swipe like Hades', are learned and adapted into later content. They're the tank busters for the party.

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Tankbusters aren't 1 hit kills, and tanks have tons of "just in case" mitigation they can pop even if they don't know exactly what's coming.

Coincounter is actually 1 hit killing melee DPS with a move that has absolutely no tell as to what it is or what it will do. That's BS.

I'll repeat, if an attack is something you need to learn by actually being hit by it then it should NOT be a 1 hit kill. If an attack is going to be a 1 hit kill then it needs a telegraph.

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Originally Posted by Roda

I mean without the harsh punishment it's at best annyoing, and at worst ignoreable.

You dont' lose much by dying. This isn't some crap game where you lose hours of progress in unrelated content if you die anywhere (deleveling). You simply just have to get up and try again and learn from your mistakes.
If you want to progress, pass the test and just don't get hit by the thing you know kills you.

If you couldn't learn by dying in one hit to an untelegraphed attack, no one would be able to clear extremes/savages.

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Death means you can't adjust, and it being in easy content means the group probably won't wipe, so you won't even get a chance to retry and adjust. Pretending that's a learning environment is ridiculous; it's just the laziest possible way to add difficulty to a boss fight for new players.

I'm not saying it's broken and needed to be changed, but I'm still glad they did change it because the way it works is dumb.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Tankbusters aren't 1 hit kills, and tanks have tons of "just in case" mitigation they can pop even if they don't know exactly what's coming.

Coincounter is actually 1 hit killing melee DPS with a move that has absolutely no tell as to what it is or what it will do. That's BS.

I'll repeat, if an attack is something you need to learn by actually being hit by it then it should NOT be a 1 hit kill. If an attack is going to be a 1 hit kill then it needs a telegraph.

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Tank busters are most certainly 1hkos in content that matters. And no, they can't just pop mitigation whenever...


And frankly, if it doesn't kill you, or be followed by something that will, then you won't learn, because why avoid something that doesn't kill you.

This thread is the most attention AV has gotten in years, love to see it.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Also the search function for the orchestrion.

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This...I have wanted this for so long. I got so tired of combing my orchestrion list to see if I had something that I just rolled on any that dropped in case I didn't have them.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Tank busters are most certainly 1hkos in content that matters. And no, they can't just pop mitigation whenever...


And frankly, if it doesn't kill you, or be followed by something that will, then you won't learn.

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They can in 99% of content to gauge attacks they're not familiar with. If you're running Savage/Ultimate then researching the fights ahead of time is a given. We're talking about a level 40 something story dungeon. Coincounter isn't needed to prepare anyone for anything.

It's a dumb cheeseball mechanic designed to completely blindside new players, and that's it. I have no problem with it being gone. Pretending it was an important teaching tool is just hilariously stupid.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

They can in 99% of content to gauge attacks they're not familiar with. If you're running Savage/Ultimate then researching the fights ahead of time is a given. We're talking about a level 40 something story dungeon. Coincounter isn't needed to prepare anyone for anything.

It's a dumb cheeseball mechanic designed to completely blindside new players, and that's it.

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No one doing content fresh is doing research or preparing. They are learning as they go.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

They can in 99% of content to gauge attacks they're not familiar with. If you're running Savage/Ultimate then researching the fights ahead of time is a given. We're talking about a level 40 something story dungeon. Coincounter isn't needed to prepare anyone for anything.

It's a dumb cheeseball mechanic designed to completely blindside new players, and that's it.

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It's not even a story dungeon, it's completely optional. Thank God no one got hit by untelegraphed attacks ever again after this hard knock lesson in AV, right? That's all about to change now these new players can actually see what killed them.

This change wasn't sorely needed IMO but the amount of pearl clutching over this is so over the top.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

No one doing content fresh is doing research or preparing. They are learning as they go.

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I just want to make sure you understand, we're talking about a 40 something (optional) story dungeon, not an attempt to world first the latest Savage content.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I just want to make sure you understand, we're talking about a 40 something (optional) story dungeon, not an attempt to world first the latest Savage content.

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And? When I first started there was no guide. I was tanking. You get hit once and go "oh, I shouldn't stand there when he uses that"

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

And? When I first started there was no guide. I was tanking. You get hit once and go "oh, I shouldn't stand there when he uses that"

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I'm guessing a lot of you don't play games with well designed boss fights. Attacks are either telegraphed so you can react, or allow you to recover so you can adjust.

I'm not saying there's no way to figure out coincounter or that he's broken; I'm saying it's just extremely lazy, shoddy combat design to include an untelegraphed 1 hit kill. Hell, I'd say those kinds of mechanics are a shoddy way to draw out Savage content as well, but I'm guessing it's the best they can come up with. This game isn't exactly famous for it's well crafted gameplay.

Back in my day, mobs would only give you a simple line such as "The Mist Lizard readies Plague Breath" and you simply had to know what that meant and how to deal with it. No shiny markers of any sort. Kids these days have it easy!

While you're at it, get off my lawn.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I'm guessing a lot of you don't play games with well designed boss fights. Attacks are either telegraphed so you can react, or allow you to recover so you can adjust.

I'm not saying there's no way to figure out coincounter or that he's broken; I'm saying it's just extremely lazy, shoddy combat design to include an untelegraphed 1 hit kill. Hell, I'd say those kinds of mechanics are a shoddy way to draw out Savage content as well, but I'm guessing it's the best they can come up with. This game isn't exactly famous for it's well crafted gameplay.

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That depends on your definition I guess.


They aren't untelegraphed though. He has a cast bar and also raises his arm above his head and waves it around.

They all have telegraphs. Just because you don't understand them doesn't mean they don't exist.