Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

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Originally Posted by TyrTry

It's okay. I won't forget where the vote kick option is.

Team player right here.

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Vote kicking me for being disoriented? Some team player you are. ;)

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's a bad idea. Being rescued disorients me; I may forget where my AoE buttons are for however long it takes for the healer to die. ;)

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If the dungeon run takes too long, I might feel sleepy; I may forget where my heal buttons are for however long it takes for the tank to die. ;)

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Someone who's rude enough to do it in the first place isn't likely to stop when asked. They had the option to suggest big pulls at the start of the run, and instead opted to be obnoxious about it.

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Except it’s not rude to use rescue in the first place.
Heck, I WANT healers to rescue pull me, too often my sprint is on CD, and they can pull me to the next mobs faster, to get the dungeon done faster.

But they never do T^T

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's a bad idea. Being rescued disorients me; I may forget where my AoE buttons are for however long it takes for the healer to die. ;)

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Believe me, the message is much larger if you just leave, you don't have to suffer through abuse. Don't drop below yourself like this to get back at them.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

* Yes, I will pull you into a stack of mobs. IF these mobs have aggroed other players. I mean, what are you doing over there?
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In this case, I'm not sure how that would make me feel, however, you shouldn't have to use that skill in that manner in the first place. Run into the tank with the loose mob lol.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

Except it’s not rude to use rescue in the first place.
Heck, I WANT healers to rescue pull me, too often my sprint is on CD, and they can pull me to the next mobs faster, to get the dungeon done faster.

But they never do T^T

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How's the healer far ahead enough to Rescue pull for you in the first place? With 2 gap closers and sprint you should be way ahead of everyone else on a wall to wall. I thought you pulled big, bro?

Obviously we're playing a game now where you pretend Healers are being obnoxious to you "for your own good," so we'll clearly never agree. I guess in order to avoid being harassed by Rescue I'll have to start stating my position at the beginning of runs and reporting people who use it on me.

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

Believe me, the message is much larger if you just leave, you don't have to suffer through abuse. Don't drop below yourself like this to get back at them.

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Thing is I don't want to get the DPS killed; in a perfect situation I let the healer die, then pick up the adds, or let them reset, then clean up. I could easily do that on my Paladin but it's trickier with a Dark Knight.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

How's the healer far ahead enough to Rescue pull for you in the first place? With 2 gap closers and sprint you should be way ahead of everyone else on a wall to wall. I thought you pulled big, bro?

Obviously we're playing a game now where you pretend Healers are being obnoxious to you "for your own good," so we'll clearly never agree. I guess in order to avoid being harassed by Rescue I'll have to start stating my position at the beginning of runs and reporting people who use it on me.

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I mean AFTER you kill everything, and the wall/gate opens up. You know later dungeons gate you into only pulling certain amounts, right? I mean, you'd know that if you pulled big too.
I also have the bad habit of using sprint to avoid mob AoEs, back from my 360ping days, which I am trying to break, now that my ping is much lower.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I mean AFTER you kill everything, and the wall/gate opens up. You know later dungeons gate you into only pulling certain amounts, right? I mean, you'd know that if you pulled big too.
I also have the bad habit of using sprint to avoid mob AoEs, back from my 360ping days, which I am trying to break, now that my ping is much lower.

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Sprints not on that long of a CD and the healer should be popping his as well to keep up with you. Using it to dodge AoEs during the fight is just silly.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Sprints not on that long of a CD and the healer should be popping his as well to keep up with you. Using it to dodge AoEs during the fight is just silly.

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I already acknowledged that in my comment XD Do you read the entire content of comments, or just the first half?
And you know what? Healers can position themselves ahead of the tank before the last mob dies, and the gates open up, so a pull when that happens when sprint is not on CD is still faster.
This happens quite often, as I usually stop moving the mobs as soon as I grab them all and group them up, so casters don't have their spells interrupted from going out of range as much.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I already acknowledged that in my comment XD Do you read the entire content of comments, or just the first half?

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Just whatever benefits his argument.

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Originally Posted by TyrTry

Just whatever benefits his argument.

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I was just reiterating. Nothing about that back and forth was important to my actual point.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

Except it’s not rude to use rescue in the first place.

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↑ This 100%. Rescue is not an attempt at being rude or obnoxious. It's a show of confidence in the tank and party's abilities.

If your first response is to take it as a personal insult and try to grief the party by killing the healer, now that says a lot more about you than the Rescue says about them.

Honestly if the healer feels confidence in my abilities I'd rather they just say it outright in chat, rather than rescuing me out of nowhere. But I also tend to ask my healer what kind of pulling style they prefer right out the gate to prevent that from happening, so I would hope they wouldn't feel the need to rescue me into more mobs after they themselves have already established the pace.

Really my only issue with rescue is the fact that it's so subject to lag that using it to actually save people runs the risk of killing them instead. But there's really no way to fix that beyond teleporting the person you're rescuing to you, rather than quickly dragging them across the floor like how it currently works.

Maybe just be a normal tank, and pull big pack's? For healer's not Rescued you into mobs. Healers never Rescue me, because i always gather big pulls

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I was just reiterating. Nothing about that back and forth was important to my actual point.

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I dunno, your point is pretty much “In my opinion, rescue should be removed, because rescue pulling annoys me/hurts my feelings, I think it’s rude; and as a tank, I feel like I should be the only one that sets the pace”.

The rest of us were stating that in our opinion, rescue should NOT be removed, as rescue has a lot of good uses, and that rescue pulling is actually not rude, helps you do your tanking job, and makes dungeon runs a lot faster. Also, that the whole team decides the pace.
So talking about the usefulness of rescue pulling in experience-based scenarios is actually a pretty important to our points as a whole.
Unless that is, you only think your opinion is important, and you don’t really care about other people’s opinions on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Thing is I don't want to get the DPS killed; in a perfect situation I let the healer die, then pick up the adds, or let them reset, then clean up. I could easily do that on my Paladin but it's trickier with a Dark Knight.

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Letting an offending healer die over this is something I can't get on board with ^^;. It doesn't look good on you to do it. Just finish the pull, ask them not to do it or again, or find another tank. I could follow my own advice and say to not do it again but that invites confrontation which I'm not good at handling, people like fighting online.

Oh, forgot to give my thoughts on the skill itself. A skill is only as useful or as malicious as the player using it.

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

Believe me, the message is much larger if you just leave, you don't have to suffer through abuse. Don't drop below yourself like this to get back at them.


In this case, I'm not sure how that would make me feel, however, you shouldn't have to use that skill in that manner in the first place. Run into the tank with the loose mob lol.

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A rogue mob, sure. I'm thinking outside dungeons though. Particularly the three YOLO rooms in LoTA, which is a roulette duty that comes up very frequently.

Basically a group of mobs will gang up on a non tank player, and the tank in my group will be going HAM on the stationary mob with the most HP. The tank will most likely not like this, but I am literally saving him and myself a ton of GCDs by doing this, so long as he doesn't have nuts for brains and just rushes right back over to his previous target. This happens a lot in Copied Factory as well.

if a healer pulls you into mobs as a tank just tank the mobs to the best of your ability. If no wipe happens view it as a nudge that the group wants to go faster, if you wipe even though you tried your best tell them that large pulls simply will not workout with the current group.

Either they understand, or don't.

In my experience I have only ever seen it used on tanks to force more pulls which ends up usually making the tank pull less due to in party arguing. Or my friends trying to sabotage me in roulettes.

I know there are some great high tier strategies with blm and rescue in good statics.

This type of move with always be controversial, starting back with Death Knight in wow. No good ever comes of it.

There are only two points I use Rescue: dragging people to where I know they will be safe, or dragging people into my Asylum because I am not going to heal you while that is up (and if you run out of Asylum after being Rescue'd, then you've made your choice).

Okay there's a third, but that's only when I play with friends and I feel like messing with them.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I've been trying to think about how I should handle it if it ever happened to me again.

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You should hande it with passive-aggressiveness. Just grab all the mobs and stop using cooldowns.

in serious matter, i use it to help people IF they really need to. for example like incoming aoe and you need to run to edge corner of the arena and this one guy is waaay behind and quite obvious he didnt make it, thats my time for the "rescue" to shine.

and some time i use it to "rudely" tell someone to get closer to me because my heal cant reach him/her. for example a ranged class stay on the corner on boss fight and my aoe/direct heal cant reach him unless i run to him, i say in party chat to get closer but he dont care, so yeah i "rescue" him.

the rest i just use it for fun/prank. dungeon complete, one guy run to the exit portal, i "rescue" him =P

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Assuming that's not going to happen, I've been trying to think about how I should handle it if it ever happened to me again

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Simple: ask them to stop. If they don't: report them and try a votekick. If it fails, leave.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

The intention notwithstanding, the execution of that ability is horrible. It's a troll button.

I understand that healers get bored and want stuff to do, so changing the ability might be preferable to removing it. Just turn it into a long CD single target barrier healers can cast on the party. That maintains the general intention while removing the terribly thought out, OBVIOUSLY exploitable mechanic.

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Rescue is intended to safe people from certain death by pulling them to a safe spot and you couldn't make a barrier strong enough to survive one-shot mechanics without it getting exploited and leading to a whole lot of balancing issues.
Other uses include, but are not limited to:

• pulling stack marks into the group or pulling people into your stack mark
• pulling people into healer bubbles or heal range in general
• pulling people out of animation lock
• pulling people who lost control over their character to safety to prevent them killing themselves (like on Ruby Weapon gaze)

Someone stepped on your toes; deal with it like a grown adult but don't throw a fit on the forum for a skill to get removed. It has lots of uses and plenty of people regulary use it well.
Since you didn't explicitely state that the tank who got pulled was annoyed by it and spoke up, consider that it might have been a premade. It's pretty common for a tank/ healer premade to speed up pulls this way or with the healer pulling and dropping them off in the tank's aoe.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

In good groups rescue isn't necessary. In bad groups full of well intended people it's almost always used wrong, and causes more problems. It's a useless skill; if you see it used in a group it's almost always because the healer is bored, and while I'm sure it's fun for them it's not fun for the people they use it on. There's absolutely no reason for it to stay as it is.

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Escpecially good groups can make very good use of it and it's far from useless. Asking for a complete overhaul of a skill just because you can't use it advantageous or like it is just petty.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Assuming a healer can handle a wall to wall pull is a gambit. I've gone literally 15-20 seconds without receiving a single heal on a wall to wall; if I wasn't severely overgeared I'd be dead. Healer should state exactly what they can handle at the beginning of the run if they have specific expectations. Otherwise the tank sets the pace, period.

That's all beside the point, though. Rescue shouldn't exist as it does.

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Most important question: did you die?
If not, there is no issue. Healers adjust according to incoming damage. If they have an overgeared tank, tiny pulls or the tank has CD timing on point, they will naturally heal less.
Besides, Excod, Bene and ED encourage letting the tank drop.
And I repeat: if you didn't die, there wasn't a problem.
Had many PLD use clemency when they dropped below 50% so I didn't bother to heal too. They were already healed, why overheal?
But I bet many of them thought "I would have died had I not healed myself! Stupid, awful healer not even being able to handle small pulls!"
No, bud. No wouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

A rogue mob, sure. I'm thinking outside dungeons though. Particularly the three YOLO rooms in LoTA, which is a roulette duty that comes up very frequently.

Basically a group of mobs will gang up on a non tank player, and the tank in my group will be going HAM on the stationary mob with the most HP. The tank will most likely not like this, but I am literally saving him and myself a ton of GCDs by doing this, so long as he doesn't have nuts for brains and just rushes right back over to his previous target. This happens a lot in Copied Factory as well.

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Not a problem if I'm there, but I can imagine the chaos if adds are ignored there.

Troll-rescuing is why I stopped pugging healers, if possible. Being yanked around like a marionette, both as tank and dps, just because the healer is bored and probably a kid, is not my idea of a pleasant run.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

it really can't be used to troll.

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It does can be used for trolling. At the release of the skill, here on the forum, some players were complaining of Rescue already. And I've experienced it myself, Rescue used just to stop my cast and the healer laughing out of loud on the chatbox he failed his troll.

Only time I touch rescue is when I want to save some Nub from death or I am feeling friendly and want to help someone who's trying to avoid death.

Sure you can remove rescue in return please remove Clemency, Vercure, Nascent Flash, Bloodbath, Second Wind, Curing Waltz, Abyssal Drain, Aurora, Merciful Eyes, Life Surge, since they all do healing and as a healer only I should be healing tee hee.

Sound stupid to you?

That is what people who want rescue removed sound like, you allow the few people who do abuse it to justify taking away from everyone who doesn't, rescue has input lag that I feel needs tightning but as a skill it is very useful I have prevented many a death and wipes due to being able to rescue.

Bad apples will be bad apples, grow a pair and just vote kick if they refuse to stop doing something your uncomfortable with.

If it really was such a problem or useless ability it would have been Axed/reworked coming into ShB just like multiple role skills.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Sure you can remove rescue in return please remove Clemency, Vercure, Nascent Flash, Bloodbath, Second Wind, Curing Waltz, Abyssal Drain, Aurora, Merciful Eyes, Life Surge, since they all do healing and as a healer only I should be healing tee hee.

Sound stupid to you?

That is what people who want rescue removed sound like, you allow the few people who do abuse it to justify taking away from everyone who doesn't, rescue has input lag that I feel needs tightning but as a skill it is very useful I have prevented many a death and wipes due to being able to rescue.

Bad apples will be bad apples, grow a pair and just vote kick if they refuse to stop doing something your uncomfortable with.

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I like rescue and have saved and have been saved bunch of times with that ability thus don't want it removed, but this argument is stupid. All those other abilities you mention can't be used to troll or forcefully change people's position. As an ability, rescue is an outlier.

I've had instances where healers rescued me towards mob pulls and I appreciated it every time, since it was a clear sign that I can and should pull more, while otherwise uncertain.

I would be very annoyed if a healer ever did this without first using their words to ask me to pull more. It's a very simple thing, to try using communication before trying to control how I play by moving my character with no warning

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Assuming a healer can handle a wall to wall pull is a gambit. I've gone literally 15-20 seconds without receiving a single heal on a wall to wall; if I wasn't severely overgeared I'd be dead. Healer should state exactly what they can handle at the beginning of the run if they have specific expectations. Otherwise the tank sets the pace, period.

That's all beside the point, though. Rescue shouldn't exist as it does.

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You do realize the healer likely knows that and is purposely taking advantage of your higher ilvl, yes? I do this constantly with tanks because I have a bevy of abilities ready to shoot their HP back up in seconds. This doesn't include Benediction or Essential—both of which loss value if you don't allow the tank's HP to plummet.

And no, the tank does not set the pace. This mindset needs to die out. If you have an undergeared healer or DPS, their inability to heal or kill things as quickly means they've determined the pace. Regardless, tanks aren't special. You're simply one of four people wanting to get through the dungeon. If three other people want to go fast and you're refusing to pull more out of sheer stubbornness, you're being selfish. And putting your preference above the majority.

Dungeons are a complete joke nowadays, especially Expert. Unless people are severely undergeared, there isn't a single dungeon where a double pull will hurt you.

Honestly, why not take it as a challenge? The healer or DPS has given you free reign to push yourself. If you can't handle it, well, it's their fault for pulling more. But if you can, you now know you're capable of more than you thought. It's essentially a riskless gamble.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Thing is I don't want to get the DPS killed; in a perfect situation I let the healer die, then pick up the adds, or let them reset, then clean up. I could easily do that on my Paladin but it's trickier with a Dark Knight.

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Bluntly stated, if I were the DPS I would vote kick you for that stunt. All you've accomplished is making the dungeon take longer because you're being petty. Now if you asked the healer to stop and they kept doing it anyway, that's a different story. But to just revenge kill them as a sort of "lesson." Yeah, I'd rather wait for a new tank, personally.

I rescue people because I don't wanna eat the stack marker alone. If we're gonna wipe it's better to be a fast one than a slow one.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I like rescue and have saved and have been saved bunch of times with that ability thus don't want it removed, but this argument is stupid. All those other abilities you mention can't be used to troll or forcefully change people's position. As an ability, rescue is an outlier.

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Actually vercure/Clemency can be used to troll, spamming over and over for no reason out in the overworld on someone who asks you to stop. It's why I literally put sound stupid to you? as its own paragraph because it is absolutely stupid to stifle another job because actions of a few people.

Lets also face it there will be someone out there that does get offended if someone else heals any amount of damage should we ask for all those abilities to be removed for this for lack of a better phase 'special snowflake', NO. Same deal with rescue because some people troll should it be removed, NO.

As a Tank I will pull as many as I am comfortable with. If the healer wants me to pull more I will often comply. But if the healer just runs past and rescues me into the next pack, I will leave the dungeon.

If you want me to pull more just say so in chat. Using Rescue like a tug on a leash isn't exactly polite.

I'm not a dog to do your bidding for you, I'm a person.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You do realize the healer likely knows that and is purposely taking advantage of your higher ilvl, yes? I do this constantly with tanks because I have a bevy of abilities ready to shoot their HP back up in seconds. This doesn't include Benediction or Essential—both of which loss value if you don't allow the tank's HP to plummet.

And no, the tank does not set the pace. This mindset needs to die out. If you have an undergeared healer or DPS, their inability to heal or kill things as quickly means they've determined the pace. Regardless, tanks aren't special. You're simply one of four people wanting to get through the dungeon. If three other people want to go fast and you're refusing to pull more out of sheer stubbornness, you're being selfish. And putting your preference above the majority.

Dungeons are a complete joke nowadays, especially Expert. Unless people are severely undergeared, there isn't a single dungeon where a double pull will hurt you.

Honestly, why not take it as a challenge? The healer or DPS has given you free reign to push yourself. If you can't handle it, well, it's their fault for pulling more. But if you can, you now know you're capable of more than you thought. It's essentially a riskless gamble.



Bluntly stated, if I were the DPS I would vote kick you for that stunt. All you've accomplished is making the dungeon take longer because you're being petty. Now if you asked the healer to stop and they kept doing it anyway, that's a different story. But to just revenge kill them as a sort of "lesson." Yeah, I'd rather wait for a new tank, personally.

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In those situations where I'm waiting nearly half a minute for heals I usually end up having to keep my self alive with Clemency until the healer wakes up. If that had happened with my Dark Knight on a wall to wall pull I'd be dead no matter what my ilvl. There are PLENTY of healers out there who can't handle wall to wall pulls, so it's always a gambit.

Regardless, if they want me to pull big and they ASK in chat then no problem. Using rescue is absolutely disrespectful, dismissive and rude; so I'll always treat it as if I've just been insulted. If I feel like I can finish the pull without the healer I'll probably let him die, and if the group doesn't like that they're free to kick me. As a Paladin I could handle most pulls without the healer.

If use of Rescue is clearly an accident or well intended THEN I'll politely ask them to not touch me with Rescue again, and hopefully that would be the end of it.

Dont touch my rescue skill.
All healers don't use this as a troll.

I have used it several times in dungeons or raids (like Ancients on Behemoth) with zero issues.

I also don't get how anyone uses it accidentally, but must be how its placed on their bar. We dont need more skills removed.

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Originally Posted by Eldevern

It does can be used for trolling. At the release of the skill, here on the forum, some players were complaining of Rescue already. And I've experienced it myself, Rescue used just to stop my cast and the healer laughing out of loud on the chatbox he failed his troll.

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You have three to seven other players, and the ability is on a 120sec CD. If I was a troll, I would be saying this ability sucks to troll with.

It is not my intention to invalidate the experiences other players have had with the healers in their groups, but what I can tell you is that any healer who cares about getting a clear isn't going to recklessly use up what is quite honestly a true 'oh crap' button. What I will say is that your perspective needs to expand beyond around just you, because, "Stoopid healer messing up muh deeps!" isn't going to carry enough merit to warrant deleting this skill from the game.

I for one can say I have prevented both player KOs and full on wipes with this skill. I've also had a lot of botched attempts (most of which the player was dead anyway, and my hesitation to use rescue ultimately had them die when I could have saved them). This skill can literally define how aware a healer is of any particular encounter, and in prog parties it can be used to cheese some mechanics (something I don't condone, but understand).

In short, the benefit far outweighs whatever detrimental troll behaviour that is happening out there. Report healers who are misusing the ability. Even if you feel this futile, it still sends the message to the healer and everyone in the group.

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In short, the benefit far outweighs whatever detrimental troll behaviour that is happening out there. Report healers who are misusing the ability. Even if you feel this futile, it still sends the message to the healer and everyone in the group.

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Everyone's perspective is different. If you're a healer who uses the ability competently with good intentions then that's your purview; you only see what you do and not how Rescue is generally used by other healers.

I group with a variety of healers and from my perspective the bad FAR outweighs any perceived good. The ability is predominately either a tool for trolls, or used in ways that hurt more than help.

If you all don't want to change the ability mechanically then we should let people opt out of having it used on them. Add a toggle and leave it on by default, so people who don't want to be Rescued have to actively disable it.