How come the msq keeps using big words?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But the Japanese also uses archaic forms? Does it just help to not understand what you're hearing so you can imagine what you please?

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It's the voice acting in English that kills me. It sounds like a high school play with their over pronounced old English accents. I got so sick of hearing words like MAYHAP when they could've used maybe or something more used.

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Originally Posted by monk-dps

It's the voice acting in English that kills me. It sounds like a high school play with their over pronounced old English accents. I got so sick of hearing words like MAYHAP when they could've used maybe or something more used.

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Are you fluent in Japanese?

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Funnily enough, while archaic, and still using many... big words so to say, Urianger is pretty easy to understand in Japanese. I think they went the extra mile with the english version to make him sound as convoluted as possible.

Actually the more I think about it, it isn't even that archaic in japanese, just overly polite, and sophisticated (?).

PS: to be fair both english and japanese are secondary languages to me.

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I guess the best way they could think of to directly translate that into English was to use things like thou/thee/thy/thine and all that?? Since English doesn’t have anything like polite forms versus casual forms the way Japanese does; and thou/thee/thy/thine were once used in English as pronouns. Though, ironically, they conveyed intimacy with the other party one was speaking to, as opposed to being used for politeness (which would imply social/personal distance between two speakers)—so, technically, they can be argued as casual forms. If one was to consider their actual use back in the day.

Funny enough, in Early Modern English, “ye” was the formal counterpart to “thou”. Now, it’s overwhelmingly casual in the few areas it’s still used it (it’s mostly colloquial now), and “thou” is seen as more formal due to its use in religious texts; but when the pronouns were actually in spoken English, it was the opposite.

Sorry. I nerded out a bit there.

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Originally Posted by monk-dps

I dunno. I rather they didmt use ole English all the time. It always takes me out of it. Which is why my audio is in Japanese.

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Trust me. They aren’t using Old English. You wouldn’t understand a lick of it if they were. I’d wager they’re going for Early Modern English, which is still largely intelligible to Modern English.

Here’s a sample of Old English:

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Originally Posted by “The Lord’s Prayer” in Old English

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum;
Si þin nama gehalgod
to becume þin rice
gewurþe ðin willa
on eorðan swa swa on heofonum.
urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg
and forgyf us ure gyltas
swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum
and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge
ac alys us of yfele soþlice

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And the Lord’s Prayer in Old, Middle, and Early Modern English, for comparison: https://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/mp3s/lords.html

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I guess the best way they could think of to directly translate that into English was to use things like thy/thee/thine/thou and all that?? Since English doesn’t have anything like polite forms versus casual forms the way Japanese does; and thy/thee/thine/thou was once used in English as pronouns. Though, ironically, they conveyed intimacy with the other party one was speaking to, as opposed to being used for politeness (which would imply social/personal distance between two speakers)—so, technically, they can be argued as casual forms. If one was to consider their actual use back in the day.

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"You" is also the plural form of "thou" - so you'll occasionally see Urianger using it if he's addressing more than one person at the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou

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Originally Posted by Iscah

"You" is also the plural form of "thou" - so you'll occasionally see Urianger using it if he's addressing more than one person at the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou

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Yeah, but “ye” is the singular formal counterpart. From all that I’ve read, “you” could be be interchangeable from formal to informal; but “thou” was always used as an informal pronoun in Early Modern English. Which was the irony I was pointing out—in their attempt to make Urianger sound so archaic and, I’m guessing, polite to match the way he speaks in Japanese, they fell into the trap of using old informal personal pronouns.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl...glish#Pronouns

Funny tidbit from the page you linked:

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Most modern writers have no experience using thou in daily speech; they are therefore vulnerable to confusion of the traditional verb forms. The most common mistake in artificially archaic modern writing is the use of the old third person singular ending -eth with thou, for example “thou thinketh”. The converse—the use of the second person singular ending -est for the third person—also occurs ("So sayest Thor!"―spoken by Thor). This usage often shows up in modern parody and pastiche in an attempt to make speech appear either archaic or formal. The forms thou and thee are often transposed.

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EDIT: I suppose if one really wanted to try and reach, they could argue that Urianger is being intimate and familiar with the Scions...but I don’t think that really flies; since it directly contradicts the way he speaks in Japanese (overly formal and polite). So I’d wager it was just localization falling into the trap I quoted above. It has its charm, but it’s still funny to think about how it’s technically not as formal as they likely hoped for it to seem.

However, it’s unlikely most English speakers would ever know that. I didn’t really learn about it until I took a History of the English Language course for my linguistics minor. I thought it was very funny—and now I can’t unsee it lol.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I guess the best way they could think of to directly translate that into English was to use things like thou/thee/thy/thine and all that?? Since English doesn’t have anything like polite forms versus casual forms the way Japanese does; and thou/thee/thy/thine were once used in English as pronouns. Though, ironically, they conveyed intimacy with the other party one was speaking to, as opposed to being used for politeness (which would imply social/personal distance between two speakers)—so, technically, they can be argued as casual forms. If one was to consider their actual use back in the day.

Funny enough, in Early Modern English, “ye” was the formal counterpart to “thou”. Now, it’s overwhelmingly casual in the few areas it’s still used it (it’s mostly colloquial now), and “thou” is seen as more formal due to its use in religious texts; but when the pronouns were actually in spoken English, it was the opposite.

Sorry. I nerded out a bit there.

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You nerd out all you need to. We all need to learn about our own language and others. And similar to what Iscah said, and what others have implied, a lot of the English terms used today were once the formal versions of words.

That's the main difference between the Japanese and English versions, the formality. In Japanese they still use a system of separation in their speech, Keigo, as some might know. But there are a lot of differences between the various types of Keigo. To understand it, in school you just learn a "basic" version, so that when you get a job, you can learn job specific Keigo. Think of it like job terminology, but for everyday speech.

With English on the other hand, most of the "formalities" were phased into regular speech, as a way of making everyone feel equal I guess. We could walk up and meet the Queen of England and talk very similar to how we'd speak to a random stranger. Well most of us, some of us have no manners, lol.

Plus on the subject of Urianger. His speech is more of an idiocracy than him trying to be polite. As someone said, either here or in another thread, his speech was a product of his upbringing.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

EDIT: I suppose if one really wanted to try and reach, they could argue that Urianger is being intimate and familiar with the Scions...but I don’t think that really flies; since it directly contradicts the way he speaks in Japanese (overly formal and polite). So I’d wager it was just localization falling into the trap I quoted above. It has its charm, but it’s still funny to think about how it’s technically not as formal as they likely hoped for it to seem.

However, it’s unlikely most English speakers would ever know that. I didn’t really learn about it until I took a History of the English Language course for my linguistics minor. I thought it was very funny—and now I can’t unsee it lol.

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Funny thing about Japanese. You could say the rudest things using Keigo, or the nicest things using informal speech. It's the trap of it's not what you say but how you say it. I'd have to see an example, or several to get an idea, but Urianger could still be showing a sense of familiarity while being overly formal and polite. Ultimately, that's all the various types of Japanese boils down to, the degree of seperation between you and the listener. I mean there is even a version of Japanese that is "neutral" when seperation doesn't matter, like in emergencies.

I'd really hate to see what some people think of Wuthering Heights and the Canterbury Tales....

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Originally Posted by Eloah

You nerd out all you need to. We all need to learn about our own language and others. And similar to what Iscah said, and what others have implied, a lot of the English terms used today were once the formal versions of words.

That's the main difference between the Japanese and English versions, the formality. In Japanese they still use a system of separation in their speech, Keigo, as some might know. But there are a lot of differences between the various types of Keigo. To understand it, in school you just learn a "basic" version, so that when you get a job, you can learn job specific Keigo. Think of it like job terminology, but for everyday speech.

With English on the other hand, most of the "formalities" were phased into regular speech, as a way of making everyone feel equal I guess. We could walk up and meet the Queen of England and talk very similar to how we'd speak to a random stranger. Well most of us, some of us have no manners, lol.

Plus on the subject of Urianger. His speech is more of an idiocracy than him trying to be polite. As someone said, either here or in another thread, his speech was a product of his upbringing.

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Speaking on keigo, that was one of the hardest things to learn in my Japanese study—and we just learned the most basic ways of using it; there are likely still a lot of nuances that only first-hand exposure would teach someone. Mostly because, once you started learning it, you then had to compartmentalize a separate verb conjugation for words (and, in some cases, new verbs entirely); and it was something a lot of people struggled with. However, it can really impress the Japanese if an English speaker even attempts to use keigo properly, so there is that.

You also had to understand how to properly use honorific forms and humble forms. Some verbs have their standard polite forms (desu/-masu forms), but also honorific forms for you to use with superiors (to say that they “honorably” or “respectfully” do something) and humble forms for you to use for yourself or your inner circle (to say that you “humbly” do something).

The formality in English has largely vanished—at least, with regards to differentiations of separate forms to linguistically distinguish distance between people. It is possible to word things in a more “formal” or “polite” way, but we don’t have separate words for “formal [pronoun]” or “formal [verb]” the way Japanese does.


As an aside, my History of the English Language class was probably one of my favorite classes I took. Learning about the evolution of my own language was far more fascinating than I thought it would be.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

You do not need to be an English major to understand the "big words". You just need to be normally literate and have at least some basic education - the vocabulary used is not that unusual. Oh, and one must not be a troll - I fear that is your problem.
Urianger speaks like he does because he has read far too many old books and picked up his speech patterns from those.

FYI, "puissant" means "powerful"

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I remember (native English speakers) complaining about Alisae saying "buoyant" when referring to Alphinaud's inability to swim. People just can't seem to use dictionaries anymore, and apparently missed out on context clues from 5th grade.

I admittedly don't know every single word that's used because of ye olde English but I think it should be normal to seek the knowledge instead of wallow in indolence and ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Gula

I remember (native English speakers) complaining about Alisae saying "buoyant" when referring to Alphinaud's inability to swim. People just can't seem to use dictionaries anymore, and apparently missed out on context clues from 5th grade.

I admittedly don't know every single word that's used because of ye olde English but I think it should be normal to seek the knowledge instead of wallow in indolence and ignorance.

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Using dictionaries is hard.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Using dictionaries is hard.

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It's such a big book though! And it's full of hard words!

Do you think Urianger and Jacke would be able to understand each other?

Anyway, I wish more troll threads were like this - it's not inherently offensive. A nice change from the "I brought this strawman to show-and-tell, please burn it so I can watch :)" variety.

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Originally Posted by Sated

Do you think Urianger and Jacke would be able to understand each other?

Anyway, I wish more troll threads were like this - it's not inherently offensive. A nice change from the "I brought this strawman to show-and-tell, please burn it so I can watch :)" variety.

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Urianger probably knows every language in the world and could decipher his Lominsan speak.
No one can understand Urianger except Y'shtola and anyone who plays a nerrrrd WoL.

Personally, I love the opportunity to expand my vocabulary. One of my friends occasionally throws out more obscure words, such as velutinous, and it’s always fun to google and find out what they mean. My work also throws out gems such as litigious and contemporaneously.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Are you fluent in Japanese?

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No. But it just flows better. Like it fits. But I see this as nothing but anime so the Japanese audio works for me. ARR turned me off the english audio. Mayhap.

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Originally Posted by BroFists

I'm not an english major so I don't know these big words. But omg can we all agree to chill with the big words. How come urianger and even the crystal Miqote use words like "puissant"? What does "by his most puissant hands" even mean lol? Do you want people to carry a dictionary when they do the msq? Because if you are you succeeded congrats looooool.

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Or, use this as an opportunity to LEARN NEW WORDS. Folks dont yell at authors for using a big word in a book that they dont know... NO, they either skip it or look it up or make an inference (guess) based on the content/context where the word was used.
You dont have to carry a dictionary. I'm sure you have a smartphone or a computer. Search engines are your friend.

PS> From a quick google search.
Puissant:
having great power or influence.

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Originally Posted by BroFists

I'm not an english major so I don't know these big words. But omg can we all agree to chill with the big words. How come urianger and even the crystal Miqote use words like "puissant"? What does "by his most puissant hands" even mean lol? Do you want people to carry a dictionary when they do the msq? Because if you are you succeeded congrats looooool.

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English isn't even my first language and I can understand it just fine. You talk like a twitter teenager in your post, it's really not that difficult. Learn some words if you can't understand it or at least try and grasp it from the context it is spoken in. See it as an opportunity to learn.

BroFists is sitting in his Chesterfield wing chair nearby a cozy fireplace in his library dating back to the 16th century, gently closing the lid of his MacBook. As the background lighting of the display slowly vanishes, you can make out a gentle smile on his face... As he puts the computer away, he leans back and tumbles his whiskey while you keep getting baited day for day. . . *cracking wood in the fireplace* *camera pans out*

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Funnily enough, while archaic, and still using many... big words so to say, Urianger is pretty easy to understand in Japanese. I think they went the extra mile with the english version to make him sound as convoluted as possible.

Actually the more I think about it, it isn't even that archaic in japanese, just overly polite, and sophisticated (?).

PS: to be fair both english and japanese are secondary languages to me.

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It distinctly reminded me of period pieces that attempt to remain accurate to the language of its time, i.e. from 200-600 years prior to modern Japanese. Admittedly, though, that style feels more similar to modern Japanese than 16th century English would feel to modern English, if only due to the number of words changed.

Perhaps English's Urianger, too, is less "archaic" as just having a larger available vocabulary and different words preferred for particular situations, but again, his style fits into what you'd expect of an educated person of some centuries ago in the same way as his Japanese version seems to, so I don't think they necessarily overly styled him so much as maybe that same imitation requires more changes in English.

Really Bro? Jenova's NN is not enough for you?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Perhaps English's Urianger, too, is less "archaic" as just having a larger available vocabulary and different words preferred for particular situations, but again, his style fits into what you'd expect of an educated person of some centuries ago in the same way as his Japanese version seems to, so I don't think they necessarily overly styled him so much as maybe that same imitation requires more changes in English.

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Good point. I'm not sure if he uses harder words than everyone else, or just more hard words per sentence - though I'd have to read the scripts with that question in mind. Add in the conjugated verbs and it's all too much for some people... although once you understand how they work, they can actually add to the clarity of the sentence, as does separating thou and you to indicate whether you're addressing one person or the group.

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Originally Posted by Gula

I remember (native English speakers) complaining about Alisae saying "buoyant" when referring to Alphinaud's inability to swim. People just can't seem to use dictionaries anymore, and apparently missed out on context clues from 5th grade.

I admittedly don't know every single word that's used because of ye olde English but I think it should be normal to seek the knowledge instead of wallow in indolence and ignorance.

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Seriously though. I see a word I don't know, I take maybe five seconds to Google it and move on. And half of that is opening the browser to do it, if it isn't already open.

No. Too hard. Must complain words big, much easier.

Remember, people, you have at your fingertips the greatest public repository of information in the history of humanity. It can, in fact, be used for more than memes and porn.

If someone's main language is not English then yes some of the words may seem odd - then again I have seen some non-native English speakers use correct words but words that most would consider archaic in today's world. The thing is I consider the use of complex words and grammar to be a bonus for such people as it broadens their horizons and introduces them to new words in this crazy language that quite often makes no sense whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

I still think Urianger is just putting on an act or trolling or something. That takes some genuine effort to maintain that speech pattern despite literally nobody else anywhere ever speaking in a similar manner. Worse, he explicitly knows the people around him often have some minor difficulty in deciphering what he's saying, and yet still insists on being as archaically verbose as possible.

Dude's been in Eorzea long enough to pick up on the fact that he should probably consider learning how to converse with the locals a bit more efficiently.

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Well, actually no.

Urianger is a researcher, seeking critical information about Primals. The other Scions are keenly interested in discerning facts from lore, and Urianger knows the importance of precise expression, leaving no room for ambiguity.

It would be foolish for any of them to discuss matters in layman’s terms (since misunderstanding leads to death), though I suppose Thancred’s manner reveals a touch of his criminal background.

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Originally Posted by Tohe-Spidhire

Well, actually no.

Urianger is a researcher, seeking critical information about Primals. The other Scions are keenly interested in discerning facts from lore, and Urianger knows the importance of precise expression, leaving no room for ambiguity.

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A lot of his more obscure pronouncements is quoting old prophecies and the like - most of which are extremely ambiguous.

Urianger's problem is that he spends far too much time with really old books, and not much time with other people.
Think of him as someone who spends most of his time studying 16th century literature (Shakespeare and contemporaries) in the original language, and only occasionally mingles with ordinary mortals. It would be practically impossible for someone like that to not have their language coloured by their reading material.

I think its refreshing. Not everything needs to be written at a 5th grade reading level.

It's sad how much colour and information people miss because they're not interested enough in learning to go and look things up. And this in an age when looking something up is as easy as pressing a button.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

It's sad how much colour and information people miss because they're not interested enough in learning to go and look things up. And this in an age when looking something up is as easy as pressing a button.

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More than that, if you consider the players that click-through without reading, and those that avoid “unnecessary” side-quest content.

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Originally Posted by monk-dps

It's the voice acting in English that kills me. It sounds like a high school play with their over pronounced old English accents. I got so sick of hearing words like MAYHAP when they could've used maybe or something more used.

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I personally like it when they use stuff like "mayhap" and "anyroad", I think it adds to the immersion

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Originally Posted by BroFists

I'm not an english major so I don't know these big words. But omg can we all agree to chill with the big words. How come urianger and even the crystal Miqote use words like "puissant"? What does "by his most puissant hands" even mean lol? Do you want people to carry a dictionary when they do the msq? Because if you are you succeeded congrats looooool.

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Big hands I know you're the one! XD

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I personally like it when they use stuff like "mayhap" and "anyroad", I think it adds to the immersion

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Yeah, I don't know if "anyroad" was ever in real use, but it's a nice touch of being slightly different to our English, while remaining clear in its meaning. They speak the same language but it took some different turns when evolving compound words.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Yeah, I don't know if "anyroad" was ever in real use, but it's a nice touch of being slightly different to our English, while remaining clear in its meaning. They speak the same language but it took some different turns when evolving compound words.

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Anyroad is still in use in fact. It's a regular daily expression where I live (Yorkshire in the UK) it means 'be that as it may' As in "anyroad I don't care what you say, I'm still going'. A variant is 'anyroadup'. And some folks around here also say mayhap (well, it's more like may'ap) or sometimes just 'happen'. As in "happen she'll come" instead of "maybe she'll come". So a lot of what may sound archaic to some is just local dialect to others. Broad Yorkshire, like Broad Geordie or broad Potteries, is practically a foreign language.

Prizes for accurate translation of "Cost kick a bow agin a woe an bost eet?" ...

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Originally Posted by Elladie

Anyroad is still in use in fact. It's a regular daily expression where I live (Yorkshire in the UK) it means 'be that as it may' As in "anyroad I don't care what you say, I'm still going'. A variant is 'anyroadup'. And some folks around here also say mayhap (well, it's more like may'ap) or sometimes just 'happen'. As in "happen she'll come" instead of "maybe she'll come". So a lot of what may sound archaic to some is just local dialect to others. Broad Yorkshire, like Broad Geordie or broad Potteries, is practically a foreign language.

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Ah, cool. I've never heard it used outside of the game, but it's clearly an equivalent to "anyway" with a similar construction and logical meaning, especially in context.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I personally like it when they use stuff like "mayhap" and "anyroad", I think it adds to the immersion

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I was debating with a friend about this as he asked why I hate it. I told him this cause you have the same thought he does. How does it help immersion? This isnt earth. So them using those terms should be more offputting cause it's not old English. Why are they using those terms? It's no better then them all of a sudden saying hip hop slang. Just speak normal like in other ff titles. Why do we need lame badly spoken high school play in out xiv? Who thought that was good? I dunno. I hate it. It's why I just go full anime and put it in Japanese.

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Originally Posted by BroFists

I'm not an english major so I don't know these big words. But omg can we all agree to chill with the big words. How come urianger and even the crystal Miqote use words like "puissant"? What does "by his most puissant hands" even mean lol? Do you want people to carry a dictionary when they do the msq? Because if you are you succeeded congrats looooool.

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I’m honestly impressed how often you get people to take the bait.

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Originally Posted by monk-dps

I was debating with a friend about this as he asked why I hate it. I told him this cause you have the same thought he does. How does it help immersion? This isnt earth. So them using those terms should be more offputting cause it's not old English. Why are they using those terms? It's no better then them all of a sudden saying hip hop slang. Just speak normal like in other ff titles. Why do we need lame badly spoken high school play in out xiv? Who thought that was good? I dunno. I hate it. It's why I just go full anime and put it in Japanese.

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By the logic of “this isn’t Earth”, you’re making it sound as if any Earth language would be inappropriate. “Mayhap” and “anyroad” aren’t Old English words. Old English, as I said to you before, is completely unrecognizable from any form of English you would understand. It’s so far derived from Modern English that English speakers have to be taught it like they do a foreign language.

“Mayhap” is actually from Middle English—the ME word “hap” means “chance” or “fortune”.

“Anyroad” is still in use today in some local dialects (as another poster pointed out above). It may sound strange to those not from the area that it’s used it—but that’s how dialects are. It would be the same if I used my Southeastern American dialect when I wrote posts.

The bad voice acting likely makes it seem like a “badly spoken high school play”—but if the VAs were better, it likely wouldn’t sound that bad. If you understood Japanese while holding your same opinion about the English, you’d likely feel the same way. It’s only because you don’t understand what’s being said in the Japanese audio that you don’t find it strange, in my opinion.

I think the jargon they use can be charming. It’s the bad voice-acting that’s so off-putting to me.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

By the logic of “this isn’t Earth”, you’re making it sound as if any Earth language would be inappropriate. “Mayhap” and “anyroad” aren’t Old English words. Old English, as I said to you before, is completely unrecognizable from any form of English you would understand. It’s so far derived from Modern English that English speakers have to be taught it like they do a foreign language.

“Mayhap” is actually from Middle English—the ME word “hap” means “chance” or “fortune”.

“Anyroad” is still in use today in some local dialects (as another poster pointed out above). It may sound strange to those not from the area that it’s used it—but that’s how dialects are. It would be the same if I used my Southeastern American dialect when I wrote posts.

The bad voice acting likely makes it seem like a “badly spoken high school play”—but if the VAs were better, it likely wouldn’t sound that bad. If you understood Japanese while holding your same opinion about the English, you’d likely feel the same way. It’s only because you don’t understand what’s being said in the Japanese audio that you don’t find it strange, in my opinion.

I think the jargon they use can be charming. It’s the bad voice-acting that’s so off-putting to me.

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I saw your replies, I'm just wording my own opinions badly. I'll admit that. And I'm willing to bet the japanese voice acting isnt badly directed. I cant help but feel how I feel when they use words like mayhap instead of maybe. Or the badly directed voice acting. But you might have a point as my real issue isnt the words but how the actors say those words.

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Originally Posted by spf1200

One again plz stop responding to troll threads.

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All of General Discussion is troll threads. I choose not to be affected by this fact and simply reply to those that interest me.
The style of localized English by Koji Fox and the team is to give it a unique personality, a characteristic feel. Using modern layman's terms would ruin the mystique.

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Originally Posted by monk-dps

I was debating with a friend about this as he asked why I hate it. I told him this cause you have the same thought he does. How does it help immersion? This isnt earth. So them using those terms should be more offputting cause it's not old English. Why are they using those terms? It's no better then them all of a sudden saying hip hop slang. Just speak normal like in other ff titles. Why do we need lame badly spoken high school play in out xiv? Who thought that was good? I dunno. I hate it. It's why I just go full anime and put it in Japanese.

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It's not Earth, so it shouldn't be able to represent any span of language save the most standard and contemporary vernacular, even when having characters whose language would almost certainly vary in some part from the regionally standard, contemporary, or most "common" register?

Also, other FF titles... have used strange, almost "hip hop" slang at times. That kind of variance has been one of its reoccurring charms.

...Maybe they should stop wearing any varied clothing as well?...