war out tanking pld?

I tried to make sense of that jumble, but it looks like there's just some dogs you can't teach new tricks. Paladin away my friend.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

1) they no longer have "a ton" more hp, as if that actually helps the tank over vit/def

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I stopped reading here.

Its not about learning new tricks, It about knowing your role and learning wich job best suits it under diffrent situations. If you feel you can do better, then by all means, I put out my Info, your welcome to put out yours, but again, dont judge people you cant even prove yourself par with. I respect everyones claims enough to challange them lagitamitly. These are lagit parses and pictures. Nothing to decode here, you simply cant beat it? if thats the case then dont come at me like I am incapable of learning how to tank well, when Its quiet obvious I can, and not only can I tank well, but I likely do better then you on WAR. If I am wrong , prove it. This argument as gone on for some time now. I think its time to put up or shut up.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

I stopped reading here.

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ofcourse you did, becuase your a fake and when truth is put out, you rather stay in denile.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

ofcourse you did, becuase your a fake and when truth is put out, you rather stay in denile.

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Or it's because you're still hung up on DEF being more useful than higher HP when testing here shows that defense IS mostly worthless and the correlation between Damage Taken and Defense isn't even affected by Vitality.

It ain't denial of the truth if you're not actually speaking facts.

realy? Between the two of us, I am the only one posting proof. Untill you prove it, in wich you cant, you just full of hot air. Prove it then I will take your claims seriously otherwise your simply a troll

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

realy? Between the two of us, I am the only one posting proof. Untill you prove it, in wich you cant, you just full of hot air. Prove it then I will take your claims seriously otherwise your simply a troll

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Ok, you clearly missed the link, so I went back and made it's font bigger for you to see and click this time.

Also, an interesting bit from the charts:

http://i.imgur.com/BbzGO.png

This shows that at a certain point, added Defense and Vitality is COMPLETELY useless.

no I didnt, I saw no parses, simply charts in wich DEF added was not only minimal but tests weren't backed by hard evidence ( parse, video, something) . Simply put its the same thing everyone else is experiancing , add a little def and see if it helped.... I have added over 100 def to my gear through materia and HQ stats , thats not to include the addtional vit I have gained aswell. I know for a fact, that the damage I take in less deff on a mongrel is MUCH higher then with my def gear on. I know because I have tested it over and over again in Natalan while PLing people. your link means nothing.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

no I didnt, I saw no parses, simply charts in wich DEF added was not only minimal but tests weren't backed by hard evidence ( parse, video, something) . Simply put its the same thing everyone else is experiancing , add a little def and see if it helped.... I have added over 100 def to my gear through materia and HQ stats , thats not to include the addtional vit I have gained aswell. I know for a fact, that the damage I take in less deff on a mongrel is MUCH higher then with my def gear on. I know because I have tested it over and over again in Natalan while PLing people. your link means nothing.

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If you're going to simply toss aside data from a reputable source with a history of accurate testings in more than just defense, simply because it isn't done in a parser, then I have nothing more to say to you as you're clearly blind and ignorant.

Good day sir.

good, say somthing when you can prove the words coming outa your mouth are true. Till then please stop litering these forums in wich the Devs use to adjust the game, with falicies and Lies. Fact : DEF reduces damage delt, and the higher it is the less damage you will take. only damage that is not included in this statment is magical, in wich case Stone Skin, a WHM/CNJ protect, rampart, BLM/THM's Sanguine Rite, piety and magical resist can help with that.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

good, say somthing when you can prove the words coming outa your mouth are true. Till then please stop litering these forums in wich the Devs use to adjust the game, with falicies and Lies. Fact : DEF reduces damage delt, and the higher it is the less damage you will take. only damage that is not included in this statment is magical, in wich case Stone Skin, a WHM/CNJ protect, rampart, BLM/THM's Sanguine Rite, piety and magical resist can help with that.

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Sweet jeezus, you aren't even comprehending the argument.

Nobody, not even me, has said that defense doesn't do what it's supposed to do. We are saying that what it does is useless because the difference in the damage you take with the amount of defense required to do it can easily be made up for, and surpassed, by higher HP.

Fact: It's easier to put 40HP into an armor piece than it is to increase your defense enough to reduce the damage you take by 40. And guess what? HP applies to magic damage too! Holy balls! Can you imagine?

Bloodthirst IV increases your max HP by 55 points.
Bloodwall IV increases your DEF by +16.

According to the testing, you know what +16 gets you? Not -55 physical damage taken. Even if you double, triple or quad meld a pair of Sentinel's Gauntlets with +DEF materia, they aren't going to beat out a pair of Sentinel's Gauntlets with a double, triple or quad meld of +HP materia of the same calibur.

Yes. Defense reduces the physical damage you take the higher the value is (until you reach a certain point.) That does not nullify my argument that HP is better and stacking HP will perform better than trying to stack DEF to get a similar result.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

This simply isn't true at the moment.

You're right, WAR can't generate hate like a PLD, but it generates it in it's own way which is equally effective. And in many cases where you're fighting a single target, PLD can do the job.

But with the large amount of HP WAR has over PLD alone makes it more preferred because a PLD's greater defense doesn't make up for the HP gap.

Now, PLD has better survivability, which is great for things like Ifrit and Moogle, but when it comes to dungeons where efficiency is more valued, WAR is going to do better.

As you say, tanking is about holding hate. WAR can hold that hate from the rest of the party. And deal damage. And heal itself to an extent. It may require a little more mage attention, but at the moment, WAR can tank just as well as PLD and contribute more to the battle. (In dungeons.)

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wrong again , and you are being hipocritical to your other statement. Hate generation on the two jobs are COMPLETLY diffrent. WAR generates hate off of damage dealing moves combined with hate multipliers. Most of these moves require TP to start the combos and acuracy to land them. to sum this up into a tight little package , WAR generates hate best on mobs that have low resist to physical damage / low evasion / and generally lower LVLs. Anytime this is not the case PLD will easly pull hate off the WAR. PLD only requires little tp, and the combos they do are only two part and the abilties they do to start the combos have high accuarcy rate reducing the need for PLD to need TP , in wich case is not an issue when the mob deliver 250 tp by doing 500 damage. But thats not to mention their capabilities to do AOE party buffs/heals in wich case mind ( a natural pld stat) increases the hate it generates , not damage. Other moves like "spirts within" off a combo get a larger enmity boost the more % of your HP you have when the combo is used. Again, dosent require PLD to hit hard. All signs point to : PLD = endgame tank WAR = easy mob / speed run tank

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Sweet jeezus, you aren't even comprehending the argument.

Nobody, not even me, has said that defense doesn't do what it's supposed to do. We are saying that what it does is useless because the difference in the damage you take with the amount of defense required to do it can easily be made up for, and surpassed, by higher HP.

Fact: It's easier to put 40HP into an armor piece than it is to increase your defense enough to reduce the damage you take by 40. And guess what? HP applies to magic damage too! Holy balls! Can you imagine?

Bloodthirst IV increases your max HP by 55 points.
Bloodwall IV increases your DEF by +16.

According to the testing, you know what +16 gets you? Not -55 physical damage taken. Even if you double, triple or quad meld a pair of Sentinel's Gauntlets with +DEF materia, they aren't going to beat out a pair of Sentinel's Gauntlets with a double, triple or quad meld of +HP materia of the same calibur.

Yes. Defense reduces the physical damage you take the higher the value is (until you reach a certain point.) That does not nullify my argument that HP is better and stacking HP will perform better than trying to stack DEF to get a similar result.

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No, what nullifies your Argument is the fact that me taking even 10 less damage then you , over a corse of a fight = more HP then you have melded to your armor. Hense taking less damage in turn save your more HP then you can add to gear. Wich explains why the value of DEF per materia is much less greater then that of the HP per materia. Soo if 16 def = -10 damage then 100 def will equal 100 less damage per hit wich even further devalues that HP materia you are soo intent on.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

wrong again , and you are being hipocritical to your other statement. Hate generation on the two jobs are COMPLETLY diffrent. WAR generates hate off of damage dealing moves combined with hate multipliers. Most of these moves require TP to start the combos and acuracy to land them. to sum this up into a tight little package , WAR generates hate best on mobs that have low resist to physical damage / low evasion / and generally lower LVLs. Anytime this is not the case PLD will easly pull hate off the WAR. PLD only requires little tp, and the combos they do are only two part and the abilties they do to start the combos have high accuarcy rate reducing the need for PLD to need TP , in wich case is not an issue when the mob deliver 250 tp by doing 500 damage. But thats not to mention their capabilities to do AOE party buffs/heals in wich case mind ( a natural pld stat) increases the hate it generates , not damage. Other moves like "spirts within" off a combo get a larger enmity boost the more % of your HP you have when the combo is used. Again, dosent require PLD to hit hard. All signs point to : PLD = endgame tank WAR = easy mob / speed run tank

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I agree that PLD is very capable. I'm not going to dispute that fact. And in most cases you are fighting a single target, PLD WILL win out simply because WAR's strengths are completely lost on a single target.

The only question I have is, unless I'm reading your post wrong, where does it say that the enmity from Spirit's Within is greater when your HP is higher? As far as I know, the only effect your HP has on Spirit's Within is damage.

And yes, damage translates into enmity, but I'm unaware of HP and enmity being linked for that combo.

its in the patch notes when they gave us emnity with the combo.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

No, what nullifies your Argument is the fact that me taking even 10 less damage then you , over a corse of a fight = more HP then you have melded to your armor. Hense taking less damage in turn save your more HP then you can add to gear. Wich explains why the value of DEF per materia is much less greater then that of the HP per materia. Soo if 16 def = -10 damage then 100 def will equal 100 less damage per hit wich even further devalues that HP materia you are soo intent on.

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Currently, what fight in the entire game lasts long enough where physical damage reduction outlasts higher HP? And according to Kanican's testing, it takes roughly 30 DEF to reduce physical damage taken by roughly five. (I didn't do the exact math, so I won't claim an exact correlation.)

Also quoted from the testing: "Another notable feature if we look at the table of data is that there appears to be a cap on the amount of defense one can stack before no gains are seen. In the table, defense works up to the point where the damage range becomes 35-42 (38.5 predicted average). "

Which means at that point, any further increase in defense nets you no gains. I'm unaware of an HP cap at the moment. (Though I've never tried to quad-meld every item I own with tier IV HP materia.)

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

its in the patch notes when they gave us emnity with the combo.

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It says that enmity is now the combo bonus. I'll go back and look, but I don't recall anything about the enmity varying with your HP.

All I'm getting from the patch notes for Spirit's Within is:

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- Recast time reduced from 120 to 60 seconds.
- Revised effect:
Delivers a high-accuracy melee attack at close range. Increased damage with greater current HP.
Combo Action: Phalanx
Combo Bonus: Increased enmity.

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Nothing about HP affecting the enmity.

again your refering to a chart that has nothing to counter the solid evidance I posted. His (un proven) results over my parses that have the raw data staring you in the face? Maybe his stuff is dated but like I have said before, show me SOLID data and I will aknowledge your argument. What you brought to the table is simple theory that is still unsuported. I can disprove that entire link with one FRAPS of PLing.... I mean why is this even up for debate? the evidance is In your face anytime you do anything battle related in the game, the higher your DEF the less damage you take and if the rate was 30 def for 5 damage then mages and archers would have a MUCH easier time taking damage. Like I said, I came with solid evidance. Show some respect and do the same, or dont judge my findings.

Because of the reduced recast time from 2 minutes to 60 seconds they reduced the efectivness of flat blade to fast blade to be influenced by mind, and when they introduced the combo it was stated that the % of your HP bar at the time the combo was used would effect the Enmity it generated. Maybe it was in dev notes, none the less it was there and I read it. But you did find the patch notes it would only be right of me to find the letter stating what I have said. be a minute tho

>< ok , I miss read or just forgot the details but its one in the same, as you said, damage = enmity , and as the patch notes say, the higher you HP is the more damage it will do , sooo in turn the higher your hp the more enmity it will deliver. Roundabout but its still the same outcome.

Spirits Within - Recast time reduced from 120 to 60 seconds.
- Revised effect:
Delivers a high-accuracy melee attack at close range. Increased damage with greater current HP.
Combo Action: Phalanx
Combo Bonus: Increased enmity.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

>< ok , I miss read or just forgot the details but its one in the same, as you said, damage = enmity , and as the patch notes say, the higher you HP is the more damage it will do , sooo in turn the higher your hp the more enmity it will deliver. Roundabout but its still the same outcome.

Spirits Within - Recast time reduced from 120 to 60 seconds.
- Revised effect:
Delivers a high-accuracy melee attack at close range. Increased damage with greater current HP.
Combo Action: Phalanx
Combo Bonus: Increased enmity.

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Whew. I woulda been pissed if I had missed something that huge. Thankfully we don't lose enmity with lower HP. (Not from the 'Increases Enmity' effect anyways.)

anyways... bed time now. As far as DEF over HP, would explain why alot of PLDs who stack HP are going with war now, their old HP gear for GLA isnt cutting the mustard because its build isnt compatable with PLD. Soo they go with the easiest tank to play and QQ that PLD is broke simply because they can not figure it out. To each their own. But stating falicies as facts on a website in wich a large player base come to get viable information and in wich our development team utilizes to determan wich jobs/stat/abilties ect ect to invest time into repairing, is simply wrong. and people should have done their own SOLID testing before posting theories devloped by another (probably biast) player that posted no parses , videos or anything of the sort to back his/her findings as facts.

Another PLD supporter, another person who's not playing 1.21 content. Trend or coincidence?

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Another PLD supporter, another person who's not playing 1.21 content. Trend or coincidence?

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how do you mean? and even if what you say did mean anything, how dose that make what i have posted incorrect? Another WAR supporter , and even more lack of evidance, Trend or coincidence?

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

how do you mean? and even if what you say did mean anything, how dose that make what i have posted incorrect? Another WAR supporter , and even more lack of evidance, Trend or coincidence?

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What "evidance" [sic] are you looking for? Logs of two completely different people tanking months old content like you provided, without even a DD comparison? I could give you multiple Ifrit MRD tank parses from 1.19 where the tank's damage taken per second varies between less than 60 and greater than 90 (both MRD). I could even post parses of the same exact person where the damage taken per second varies by 15-20 DPS between fights, AND the higher damage taken fight is beaten faster. In fact, higher damage taken per second on the tank usually correlated to Ifrit using more abilities on the tank which freed the melee DDs to deal more damage.

But no, how about instead I direct you here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Burn-Strategy

WAR tank, 1 WHM, massive DPS. Since PLD is "better" and we all just "suck at PLD" and "take the easy way out with WAR", surely you can do better than this.

lols soo your best response to me posting parses of a PLD "TANK" taking far less damage then a WAR "TANK" is to show how a MRD "TANK" can do more damage? Maybe you should see the video of thm "TANKING" ifrit. that would be like be proving that I can out dd a whm on a "whose a better healer" forum. your not ignorant, your just dumb... Tanks survive big hits and keep hate, that is their main concern, if you can do this realy well and do damage then more power to you, fact is WAR can not take damage well and dose not take damage well enless you severly gimp there DPS abilities and dress them like a tank. big dummy

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

Tanks survive big hits and keep hate, that is their main concern, if you can do this realy well and do damage then more power to you

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correct

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fact is WAR can not take damage well and dose not take damage well enless you severly gimp there DPS abilities and dress them like a tank. big dummy

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incorrect

Try doing the content first.

P.S.: I'm still waiting for you to one-up Kaeko's Mistress video using PLD tank.

The link Alerith provided a few pages ago is true, most stats in this game do give low returns and there is a point defense falls off greatly, beyond that point the only thing that will do anything for defense is -damage taken JA's like Hallowed Ground, Vengeance, and Sentinel or Blocking/Parrying. That's not saying that you shouldn't be prepared to have more defense available because of level differences between the player and a higher level mobs causes the falloff point to change.

only reason def falls off for most is because they fail to focus back on vit, increasing vit improves the amount of damage deflected by def as well as your HP

I have no parses yet to post , till i get them sent to me , this is what i found when testing def on 58 mobs (sphene doblyns)


WAR ifrit's axe
cobalt gear: 644def 96 dmg 282vit (291 avg dmg taken) 3664 hp

AF gear : 586def 292vit (334 avg dmg taken) 3688 hp

058def 96/58=1.66 dmg per def added


PLD no shield
cobalt gear: 656def 292vit (286 avg dmg taken) 3167 hp

AF gear: 604def 278vit (312 avg dmg taken) 2937 hp

PLD with shield
cobalt gear: 695def 292vit (262 avg dmg taken) 3167 hp

cobalt gear: 695def 315vit (248 avg dmg taken) 3190 hp (with a vit+ cobalt winglet.)

tests were done with no jewlry added. I do recomend def materia melded over vit simply because you can add 36 vit on hq rings alone, then you can add vit to legs and the sword , wich leaves only two spots in wich to add def. I recomend to keep the ratio 1 vit for every 2 def. dmg deflected overtime is a MUCH higher payoff over HP materia added. That being said, anytime you anticipate a quick and fairly painless fight, WAR is a better option simply for its ability to add to the dps, but if damage taken or keeping the tank alive for any duration past a 5 minute fight, I would go with a PLD tank as the safest route.

When I was talking about falloff point I was meaning like in the 800-1000 defense range where the defense:mob attack ratio falls off due to the limited capacity a player has to actually stack VIT to support the higher defense.

That floor isn't all that hard to reach on either jobs due to the little differences in gear and abilities available to WAR and PLD. For instance my stats on WAR and PLD with a tanking setup w/o buffs or food.

WAR Ifrits Axe:
673 Def, 310 VIT, 3673 HP

PLD Ifrits Blade w/o Shield:
682 Def, 320 VIT, 3164 HP

PLD Ifrits Blade:
698 Def, 320 VIT, 3164 HP

PLD VIT+ Sword:
698 Def, 344 VIT, 3188 HP

The only real difference between the two jobs comes down to the +Def Sheild and the WAR's higher base hp (WAR can get a +VIT axe). The tradeoff is WAR gets the bonus damage from VIT where PLD doesn't, the only bad part about that is the damage bonus on WAR from the extra VIT is going to be much more noticeable than what little (if any) damage is reduced with extra defense from the shield on PLD once that high falloff point is reached.

Since WAR can reach that high falloff point easily and still enjoy the -%damage taken from both Sentinel and Vengeance, extra HP buffer, on top of high DPS and good (free) self healing capacity it gives little incentive to bring a PLD for most things outside of kiting multiple mobs. Unfortunately that is something were going to have to deal with unless they boost PLD's DPS, change the way defense works and give PLD a boost, or allow us a secondary -% damage taken tool like WAR has, hell I dunno maybe allow us to parry with a shield and allow us to mitigate an extra hit every now and again with Foresight.

did you say 800 def is easy to acomplish? well , good luck with that, as far as vit giving a bigger damage boost to WAR, I beilive its only tp moves in wich it receives the damage boost and attack/str stats are more benificial in that case, soo by adding vit to war you actually gimping its DPS, as far as self heals on WAR, again that is based off of damage delt. Fact is WAR cant do realy good dps without gimping its def and vise versa. I think alot of people are trying to make war more then what it is, I however am going off the stats that actually exist. As far as there being a drop off point for def, I honestly couldnt confirm or deny any claims simply because I havent reached 800 def before buffs or food, I can tell you tho anytime my DEF gose up past 800 due to food or buffs I do see a noticable differance in damage taken. Alot of what people put out on these forums seem to sound more like wishfull thinking vs actual fact.

Its called diminishing returns...

Example:

600 Def 300VIT (take 400 Dmg)
650 Def 300VIT (take 300 Dmg)
700 Def 300VIT (take 250 Dmg)
750 Def 300VIT (take 200 Dmg)
800 Def 300VIT (take 175 Dmg)
850 Def 300VIT (take 160 Dmg)
900 Def 300VIT (take 150 Dmg)
950-1000 Def 300VIT (take 145 Dmg)

I don't know if you've ever hit that point but it starts really falling off after you get over that hill, with various factors like D-level affecting how much benefit or loss defense/VIT actually helps you. But in any case it doesn't dispute the fact WAR gets comparable defensive abilities and better DPS on top of PLD (even IF they are dropping attack in favor for defensive capabilities). The damage difference between the weapons alone separates the jobs considerably DPS wise, and that gap DOES NOT exist between WAR and PLD defensively.

The game is easy enough that you don't need to sacrifice anything, just go all out dps. Defensive stats might mean more when there is content hard enough to warrant it, but right now there isn't.

Also I'm not sure if the stat caps and diminishing returns are the same anymore since the patch. It's really not worth doing extensive parses until the devs settle down and figure out exactly what they want them to be.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

did you say 800 def is easy to acomplish?

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I'm not trying to strike up another argument, but in what way is getting 800 DEF difficult? I understand you said buffs and food in your previous post, but those aren't difficult to obtain as just Protect and Knight Bread is enough to push 800 so I'm not quite comprehending where the difficulty comes in.

You can easily break 900 with additional buffs as well.

bring abilities or trait that make PLD get reduced damage taken from all kind of attacks when engaged by single enemy....

They need to do 3 things for me to even touch my pld

1: War does not need gla sub, its just to good the job can do everything almost, giove it lnc sub or something. I think war can hold hate just fine w/o the gla tools. War should have been holding hate with dmg and some of its war skills.

2: Give gla an trait that reduces all dmg by 30% and fix fkin black rate s shield are just paper weights.

3: For the love of god fix the fucking Dlvl so higher lvl wont mobs make your equip seem like shit.

800 def WITHOUT buffs or food is not easy at all to get, Im sitting at 758 def WITHOUT buffs or food and thats with triple def melds on shield and chest . 39 on shield and 36 on chest. all HQ cobalt cept for the chest peice. sorry for any misunderstandings.