Eden Savage Coffers

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Originally Posted by JWag12787

That being said, you can also keep running until you get loot drops as well, and aren't limited to once a week like the regular ones are, so your odds of getting loot increase substantially from that alone.

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You can’t do that with Savage. Once you clear, that’s your clear and your loot drops for the week until they lift the restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Shamsiel

for people that keep saying: Pages, books or whatever you call me.

You need those... not only for the gear but for the items like the twine to upgrade the currency gear.
Books are also 100% drop so for me, doesnt count at all, you need a good chunk of them for only 1 item.

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I mean, they could have just kept the Coil system—Coil didn’t drop pages, so if your gear didn’t drop that week, you were SOL and had to keep waiting with no other way to get the gear you need. At least with the pages, you can save up for the drops you’d need. Yes, you could also need them for the upgrade pieces...but those have always been “everyone can Need”. So, if you win it, you win it. If you don’t, you don’t. The upgrade pieces are still, more or less, on the old system.

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Originally Posted by Shamsiel

Let's clear something about the dead coffers you would get at the end of the progress.

First: Those were not dead to begin with,anyone could get them and I doubt that at the end of the run none wanted that piece for a second job.

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Not necessarily—it was quite possible with the old system for dead gear to drop multiple times (and hit the floor multiple times) if a static had zero use for it for people’s mains or secondaries.

During Alphascape, the Omega Gloves of Aiming dropped five weeks in a row for my static. Those gloves weren’t BiS for myself (BRD) or for the MCH we originally had. They hit the floor each time they dropped because no one aside from us secondaried or played physical ranged. We also had a similar issue with the Omega Shoes of Healing, which, if I recall, also weren’t BiS, and I was the only one with a healer secondary—so they started hitting the floor as well. Oh, and the DRG Spear dropped like 4 times. Only one of the players in my old static played DRG—I rolled on it eventually because why not; but I don’t play melee that often, so it’s gone unused.

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Third: the rng was on the items, not on the rolls that players would apply making it all less painful to see when lose all 3 items because your roll suck, and to be fair... This isn't extreme, you can't simply rejoin and get something.

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How it is less painful to see casting gear drop each week when your static doesn’t run a caster/have anyone that plays caster, but you’ve been waiting for your Aiming body to drop for 8 weeks now (this was the case for me in Alphascape with O12S—lots of Casting bodies...no Aiming ones)? Sure, maybe people would roll on it, but it was also likely they’d just let it hit the floor if they weren’t going to use it (which is what started happening with those body pieces that kept dropping for my group).

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Forth: I have all the accessories for my main job but I can drop everything over and over and keep the coffers in my inventory so one day maybe I will change class, while for week people that want to gear up don't have a single 470 item.

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I mean, if you don’t need the accessory coffers, and if you aren’t planning on using them for alt jobs, why are you rolling on them? Why not pass so someone else who may actually need the items get them? I fail to see the point of this...point. Unless you’re specifically putting it in there as a “other people could do this” kind of thing.

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Fifth: Is it really fair for 1 person to drop everything, just because got luck? Clearing in pf is already hard by itself, adding this to the roulette each time you finish a run, ain't fun i tell you.

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I feel like you’d be singing a different tune if you were to luckily win everything each week. RNG isn’t a fair system; Luck isn’t fair. You can have crappy rolls one week... and then the next week suddenly roll 90+ on everything and walk off with it all.


I can’t think of any way to “improve” the coffers—adding in “[Accessory] Coffer of Aiming” would more or less be like the old system—and I haven’t seen you suggest any yourself. The only suggestion I’ve seen is awarding an extra page to those who don’t win a coffer, which I think would be fine.

I got on to check forums to complain about the exact same thing. I am 4 weeks in to clearing floors 1-3 and only piece I have is a necklace from week 1. Meanwhile in a group today, one person walked away with 3 drops from one floor. And on floor 3, someone walked away with Legs AND Feet drop. You have got to be 100000% kidding me that loot isn't locked 1 per floor. This is totally asinine and seems common sense. How is it fair this guy can walk out with that much loot in a PUG? "RNG isnt fair" "It could benefit you" OK GREAT points people. No I don't care if it ever benefits me. I'm not going to be happy going into week 5 THE SAME I WAS ON WEEK 0 then suddenly RNGesus hits me with a few drops and I'm suddenly much stronger. No. It should be steady, even if slow steady progression.

The point about statics? Correct you already benefit in a static as being able to choose loot distribution. In top tier statics, that loot is all going to DPS. Let's DRG as an example.. is it really/really fair that a static give ALL loot drops to a DRG, or a MNK first? So how many weeks in a row does the healer/tank have to pass for that DRG/MNK to go god mode? That's still terrible. So yes, a 1 per floor restriction would still create a completely linear static progression except more players would benefit versus 1 getting all the loot.

It is SUPER clear that this loot box system is the superior long term system and possible tweaks from there. However it is also SUPER clear that from JUMP it should have been locked to 1 piece per floor. It benefits both PUGs and statics(enforcing fair distribution while keeping linear progression).

*Yes I am salty about not having ANY gear on week 4.
*No I will NOT feel better about this AT ALL even if suddenly I get a bunch of drops in week 5. Please change the system immediately and I'd be happy to start where I am in week 5 with a locked system.
*Lower cost of book purchases by 1-2. Accs should be 3, other armors should be 4-5. Legs should be 6. It's already gated behind the completion of the upper tier.
*If anyone has a way to ensure Devs see this so they know the problem is out there. The loot box thing is great but it needs to be 1 per floor.

Add a new round robin option that can be enabled as a loot rule that enforces the 1 piece per person rule and keep the default the same as now. It keeps the flexibility and allows an option where people can make/join groups with the system they prefer.

Is it fair to funnel? Depends who you ask and if people agree to it. If you can kill the boss earlier due to funneling that is a net gain down the line vs. missing all the loot and books from that boss for however many weeks it takes to kill it otherwise. In that case it's a group benefit. You just join the group with the loot rules you want in the end.

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Originally Posted by Shamsiel

Let's clear something about the dead coffers you would get at the end of the progress.

First: Those were not dead to begin with,anyone could get them and I doubt that at the end of the run none wanted that piece for a second job.

Second: when the item dropped, you couldn't get a second piece of that gear and was because of the unique mechanic of the items, you have one? Can't drop another.

Third: the rng was on the items, not on the rolls that players would apply making it all less painful to see when lose all 3 items because your roll suck, and to be fair... This isn't extreme, you can't simply rejoin and get something.

Forth: I have all the accessories for my main job but I can drop everything over and over and keep the coffers in my inventory so one day maybe I will change class, while for week people that want to gear up don't have a single 470 item.

Fifth: Is it really fair for 1 person to drop everything, just because got luck? Clearing in pf is already hard by itself, adding this to the roulette each time you finish a run, ain't fun i tell you.

If you are not complaining it's probably because
A you dropped stuff
B you are in a static
C you don't care at all

And about statics, my irl job doesn't allow me to have a precise time line for static requirements so I can't join one even if I could.

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To adress your points in order:

1) I'm not sure what you mean with "dead coffers" but from the context I'm assuming you're refering to how with the old system loot for jobs not present could drop? If my guess is wrong, please correct me! If I'm right though... I've seen way to many runs where loot dropped to the floor because no one was playing monk as a second job. Or everyone who did play a tank already had that belt. Or even the person who only just got their healer to max level already had one of those rings.

2) Yes, of that one specific item - you could still roll on every other ring, glove, necklace etc. You could only greed, true, but depending on your set-up that would mean rolling against 6 other people still - lets say you have only one melee in the group and this person already got the gear in question. Now everyone else has a 1/7 to roll on that piece of gear. Assuming they even want it.

3) The RNG was actually in both - tanks and healers would always have to roll against each other, dps most often aswell. Granted, your chances were better, but you could still walk away with nothing week after week after week... because you either didnt get drops that were useful to you OR you were outrolled.
I'd rather see useful drops go to someone else than seeing no useful drops for the group at all.

4) If you're concerned about other people not getting their gear: Dont roll on it. Simple as that. No one is making you need on those items.

5) Luck isnt fair, yes. One person getting everything is also highly unlikely - can happen, grats to them, though!

And personally I'm not complaining because...
...I care more about the fun I'm having with those fights than with getting the gear.
...I know that my BiS-gear involves not only Savage-drops, so I know I can relax about them a bit more (aka: I'm not blindly following this idea that raidgear = best gear and instead look around and at my options).
...I am actually in a static - which means that I, as a tank, will most likely not see any gear or see my gear last. But I'm okay with that because again, its more about the fun than my ilvl.
...I rather see someone getting gear thats useful to them than seeing loot that no one wants for the sixth week in a row.

I guess I just have things in regards to those raids that are a lot more important to me than getting those drops. For example having fun with the content itself - I understand that "fun" for some people means getting the highste ilvl, which is fair.
The loot-system will never be "fair" because you'll always roll against other people in some way. Or you'll be at an advantge and be able to just take the gear that dropped for your job out of luck.
The current system at least makes sure that no useless gear drops anymore, which is an improvement. They also need to limit our progress somehow, so they cant just replace the exchange-tokesn with straight out coffers, for example.
The current system allows you to participate in the content and provides you with both an equal chance of winning those items aswell as a safety net should you really have some rotten luck.

Not a bad idea to have 2 different options for loot.

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Originally Posted by Jaelommiss

I would propose that coffers remain and players who do not win anything be awarded a second book. This would mitigate the impact of bad rolls in PF. It would also help tanks and healers in statics that funnel gear towards dps.

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I can get behind this idea.

Actual system
First item: 8/8 rolls
Second item: 8/8 rolls
Third item: 8/8 rolls
Forth item: 8/8 rolls


System of loot with box locked after first:
First item: 8/8
Second item: 7/8
Third item: 6/8
Forth item: 5/8
At the end of the day, 4 players have 1 item for sure
Instead of rnjesus given 3 items to 1 player and 1 to another. Or even all 4 for what matters..

Why in normal the loot system is better that savage one?
You are locked with 1 drop each floor on normal mode that give your 450 and not locked on savage where it gives you 470?
Shouldnt be the other way around, so you can gear multiple jobs at 450 and progress with 1 or 2 for the 470?

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Originally Posted by Shamsiel

Why in normal the loot system is better that savage one?
You are locked with 1 drop each floor on normal mode that give your 450 and not locked on savage where it gives you 470?
Shouldnt be the other way around, so you can gear multiple jobs at 450 and progress with 1 or 2 for the 470?

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It's because you can run normal mode again and again until you get your desired loot, once you clear a Savage fight, loot or not, you cannot receive any loot again until reset.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

It's because you can run normal mode again and again until you get your desired loot, once you clear a Savage fight, loot or not, you cannot receive any loot again until reset.

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Fair enough.

have to remember here - we have like 6 months to run the raid series until the next tier arrives. gear people up too soon and they leave the game quicker.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

have to remember here - we have like 6 months to run the raid series until the next tier arrives. gear people up too soon and they leave the game quicker.

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Yes and in a matter of weeks all the statics will have fully geared classes while pugs will have 1 or 2 items.

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Originally Posted by Shamsiel

Yes and in a matter of weeks all the statics will have fully geared classes while pugs will have 1 or 2 items.

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You mean participating in content with an organised, fixed group have logistic advantage ?! Unbelievable !!

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Originally Posted by Nariel

You mean participating in content with an organised, fixed group have logistic advantage ?! Unbelievable !!

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Except they already had an advantage by being able to group with players of a similar skill level who are available to raid at the same time. New loot system adds to it for no reason. (Maybe only BLM and MNK should get buffs next patch?)

It's not just statics that benefit. The archaic loot system (having to clear floors in order every week, reduced coffers if a number of weekly clears are present) is in place to discourage loot selling, but the current system makes it easier than ever to do.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

have to remember here - we have like 6 months to run the raid series until the next tier arrives. gear people up too soon and they leave the game quicker.

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New system does just that. If you had the gil/money, you could be i470 in a week.

Never thought about it but selling runs actually its even easier now, the drops is 100 fixed and all for the buyer... In one or 2 weeks you can have potentially the gear for 2 classes and 4 475 weapons...

Loot sells don't really matter though. Most people wiling to buy a clear won't ever touch Savage on their own. And who really cares if they maybe do an Expert Roulette? As for the loot drops themselves. They could restrict it so one person cannot obtain more than one thing ala Normal mode. Of course, that only changes your odds to a 1/7. Ultimately, RNG is going to RNG. I think the best alternative is making pages easier to obtain. Maybe add a token system where if you get zero coffers, you get a token instead and collecting 3-4 gives you an additional page. That or make things cost less.

this new system is great for statics, but people who have to deal with PF hell not so much. We already have to go through RNG on finding a good group to even clear content, but also we have to deal with crazy rng on even getting loot if we are lucky enough not to get a group full of downies.

I just feel this loot system needs reworked, and also that savage needs stricter requirements to stop bads from joining.

From my forever in a static perspective, this system is really good, perhaps even too good. With alts on hand you can gear up your DPS very rapidly.

For pugs, it has one very significant flaw. People can continue to roll on an equal footing for a 'piece' that they already have. There's nothing stopping me from rolling on slots I already have with the full intention of just dropping it on my retainer. Discouraging that sort of thing is kind of tricky though. Limiting people to one drop per turn per week will cause all sorts of issues with statics. Preventing people from rolling Need on a piece if they already have a 470 item or above equipped in that slot wouldn't be a good approach either. The only sensible option I can think of would be a check to see if the player has that piece from that coffer for their current job before they are allowed to roll Need. I highly suspect that'd be horridly clunky to implement though.

Honestly even in a static the new system sucks because if you static is actually optimizing... tanks and healers have to wait weeks to lot anything so the dps get everything and make the raid fights easier. Is it better for progression 100% yes, but still would rather have it the other way.

Overall I just think the new system is bad. We already have tokens that was more then enough.

I would never pug in the new system... everyone lots need for everything everytime... that is just garbage.

in a static that distributes loot to dps - it helps makes fights go faster because higher dps - faster clear. although tanks/healers are worried then because clear too fast and then group breaks up faster meaning they're boned. short of just giving us personal loot most people here are worried because this way does not allow them to be as selfish as they can be.

I got only 2 chest depite clearing e4s in week2... my friend who only clear e2s have better gear than me XD

Perhaps it would be good if each drop in savage randomly tagged the coffers for role (tank/healer/melee/ranged/caster) priority. The coffers would drop as normal and would give stuff out based on your current job when opened, but not everyone could roll need on every coffer.

It could even possibly check to see if you already had the item that you would get from the coffer in your armory chest and prevent you from rolling need then as well.

To recap:
For pugs: its bad from any point of view due to the fact that everyone can roll on everything and nothing stops them to do so, being now the "unique" description of an item completely useless, even if they have already 1-2 or x number of coffers at their disposal. Forcing the hand of a pug player on using the books to actual drops instead of upgrade for currency gear. in worst case scenario, your will have to exchange your entire set because of poor rng, you may be good at clearing fights, but if your rolls are bad, you are bad from a dps/healing/tanking pov. Also for you its impossible to attempt gearing a second job because you are using all the tokens for your main class.

For statics: if you are a healer or a tank, or even a support dps like dancer, you will get your loot last, because the static requires more dps instead of making a progressive upgrade for all roles. Making Dps stronger at a faster rate, having tank and healer sacrifice both savage progress and upgrade in stats for other contents like dungeons and solo stuff. Statics can afford to gear up multiple job, as they progress they drop everything from coffers and use books for other items such as currency item.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

in a static that distributes loot to dps - it helps makes fights go faster because higher dps - faster clear. although tanks/healers are worried then because clear too fast and then group breaks up faster meaning they're boned. short of just giving us personal loot most people here are worried because this way does not allow them to be as selfish as they can be.

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SE can't factor poor player decisions/bad leadership.

It's not ideal for PF/DF sure, I'm certain they know this by now. However, static wise it trumps doing it for weeks only to have to use books to gear up for decades. It's a nice change for statics. Honestly, they'll need to change it up at some point for pugs. But that's difficult to instantly fix.

At this point i prefer no loot at all just books, adjust the needed book rate... a world without rng...

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Originally Posted by Miminming

At this point i prefer no loot at all just books, adjust the needed book rate... a world without rng...

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They need to reduce belts to cost 4 pages, they have the exact same stat spread as an accessory with the only difference being some minor defence. Has bugged me since Alexander.

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Originally Posted by JWag12787

As Yoshi P mentioned in the live letter, yes, you can get none. But you can also be lucky and get it all.


That being said, you can also keep running until you get loot drops as well,.

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No, you cannot. Coffers get removed if 4 or more people have already cleared the floor. Or is it 5?

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Originally Posted by Conando

No, you cannot. Coffers get removed if 4 or more people have already cleared the floor. Or is it 5?

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Coffers do get removed, but if you've already cleared then you won't see anything, not even reduced coffers or a page.

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Originally Posted by Shamsiel

For statics: if you are a healer or a tank, or even a support dps like dancer, you will get your loot last, because the static requires more dps instead of making a progressive upgrade for all roles. Making Dps stronger at a faster rate, having tank and healer sacrifice both savage progress and upgrade in stats for other contents like dungeons and solo stuff. Statics can afford to gear up multiple job, as they progress they drop everything from coffers and use books for other items such as currency item.

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Depends on your static's rule. On my static, we decide it by bis priority, and /random on who will get the loot first. So everybody has a chance of being the first to get their loot, healer, tank, dps, same chance.

Make it drop full pieces. If no one can use it, make it so you can then exchange the piece for 1 token or whatever if you win the greed roll. Dropping tokens is a bs concept in itself, not only bc of the "everyone rolls need on everything" issue, but because it just doesn't feel rewarding to collect coupons which a vendor exchanges for the most epic gear in the known universe... somehow. That's not how the skinner box works ^^

How is there no obvious solution?

The obvious solution is to only award one item per floor per week.
You could roll on all three coffers that drop from E1S, but if you win one of them, you're automatically locked out of the other two.

That could be done easily by communicating, its a well know loot rule in jpn as 取抜, take and leave, people need one by one and after someone get something they leave then the other need the next item piece...

I dont think forcing this rule will be any good, since itll be suck when a static want to coordinate tbe loot to one person(for whatever the reason)

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Originally Posted by Miminming

That could be done easily by communicating, its a well know loot rule in jpn as 取抜, take and leave, people need one by one and after someone get something they leave then the other need the next item piece...

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I'm afraid this would never work in the west. We only care about ourselves.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

Honestly even in a static the new system sucks because if you static is actually optimizing... tanks and healers have to wait weeks to lot anything so the dps get everything and make the raid fights easier. Is it better for progression 100% yes, but still would rather have it the other way.

Overall I just think the new system is bad. We already have tokens that was more then enough.

I would never pug in the new system... everyone lots need for everything everytime... that is just garbage.

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That is a static decision though. Not every group will enforce the same rules. While I would insist DPS are fronted loaded until we clear, plenty of other groups wouldn't care.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

How is there no obvious solution?

The obvious solution is to only award one item per floor per week.
You could roll on all three coffers that drop from E1S, but if you win one of them, you're automatically locked out of the other two.

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This causes problems for statics though, especially when you're gearing alts. If the head piece and legs are BiS for one job and no one else. You're essentially forced to give someone a piece they will ultimately throw away in a week or two.

On average you have better odds of getting something overall, it just FEELS worse because you know you could have potentially had anything. I'll take it over seeing endless scouting and casting which I don't play

If you can really win multiple coffers from a single instance in one lockout that does seem like a big oversight.

yea you cant win every item in normal mode, so why can u win every item in savage? surely it is an error

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Except they already had an advantage by being able to group with players of a similar skill level who are available to raid at the same time. New loot system adds to it for no reason. (Maybe only BLM and MNK should get buffs next patch?)

It's not just statics that benefit. The archaic loot system (having to clear floors in order every week, reduced coffers if a number of weekly clears are present) is in place to discourage loot selling, but the current system makes it easier than ever to do.


New system does just that. If you had the gil/money, you could be i470 in a week.

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Its the god damn goal to begin with, playing with player having the same mindset, skill level and agreeing in a loot distribution beforehand is how a good group work, working together is the main point of being in a group. Actualy, nothing prevent you to doing so too if you want, looking for player to play with is MMORPG 101.

And this system is the most fair possible, no matter how you want to put it.

Every player participating in the fight have exactly the same luck of getting a loot. No matter their jobs, their skill, their DpS, their BiS or even the jobs they want to gear.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

If you can really win multiple coffers from a single instance in one lockout that does seem like a big oversight.

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You can, indeed. Arthars won all three coffers from E1S last week on his alt. My concern is limiting to only one person per week impacts statics, especially if said restriction also includes the upgrade items. If they made it so you could only Need one item per week, and once you won something, you only add the option to Greed. That might be a solution. Lets say you roll Need on everything but won the Ring. Your other two rolls immediately become "Greed" rolls or you're forced to roll on them a second time with Greed/Pass your only options.

This lets statics filter loot as they please but also lets pugs have better chances at obtaining something.

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Originally Posted by Neri

Depends on your static's rule. On my static, we decide it by bis priority, and /random on who will get the loot first. So everybody has a chance of being the first to get their loot, healer, tank, dps, same chance.

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of course there are exceptions to what i said, some statics will seek a balance in the loot system but for the majority of them they will look at the raw value of the dps output and where to max it out.

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Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

Make it drop full pieces. If no one can use it, make it so you can then exchange the piece for 1 token or whatever if you win the greed roll. Dropping tokens is a bs concept in itself, not only bc of the "everyone rolls need on everything" issue, but because it just doesn't feel rewarding to collect coupons which a vendor exchanges for the most epic gear in the known universe... somehow. That's not how the skinner box works ^^

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there is no need of such drastic change, just put it that i or anyone else in the party can drop only 1 piece and give better odds to the entire party for each piece after the first
going from 12% on the first to to 14% on second piece, to 16% on third up to 20% chances on the last piece... making so that the odds arent always 12% of getting one item.