Reasonable buff to war

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

So to follow up on the previous post what buffs does WAR need?
1) Nascent flash buff. Give it 75% of total healing you do to yourself shared with your target instead of 50% and increase the time on it so you can fit one more GCD in it.
2) Remove the potency on vengeance and slightly buff other skills so you are basically 'moving' that potency so it doesn't feel bad when WAR isn't MTing.
3) WAR needs improvements to the flow of the job. The job feels like crap to play when IR is on cooldown while all other tank jobs outside of their "burst phases" still having things to manage and do. WAR does not besides trying to hold on fell cleaves for raid buffs or IC for raid buffs. WAR doesn't scale well with DRG and BRD buffs because of the DH/CRIT guarenteed so if you are running them WAR falls behind all other tanks.

(Personal request)
Rework the DH/CRIT identity of the job. I don't like it and it makes melding WAR akward when all other tanks meld in one way (Skill speed requirements is the exception) but WAR has to be melded differently. DH? You don't do that on WAR and right now DH is the best to meld in all other tanks until the end of this tier with BiS because there is so much crit on them. It makes swapping between tank jobs expensive for an unnessesary reason.

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So in TL : DR
Make tanks even more copy-paste to each other than they are right now, because of "balance" in literally one raid that will be meaningful in a 3-6 months time.

You just asking them to make war the same as other tanks, remove that, change this so it will play the same as X, oh wait have we just made all 4 tanks playing the same?
no thanks.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

So in TL : DR
Make tanks even more copy-paste to each other than they are right now, because of "balance" in literally one raid that will be meaningful in a 3-6 months time.

You just asking them to make war the same as other tanks, remove that, change this so it will play the same as X, oh wait have we just made all 4 tanks playing the same?
no thanks.

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Even in SB both DRK and PLD melded normally while WAR became an exception. Melding doesn't make all tanks the same. DRK became another WAR and I would perfer the removal of DH/CRIT to properly balance WAR giving them more skills to use.

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

I don't mind this at all. Giving WAR some more self heal is not really a big deal to me at all. Nascent only being a 10% damage reduction as well warrants some more healing for the target too.



I agree with this wholeheartedly. The entire point of so many of the ShB tank changes was to make all tanks equally (or near equally) viable at both the MT and OT roles. Vengeance is the only tank ability in the game that rewards the player with damage for being attacked. (TBN is close, but you can use it on other targets and it is only DPS neutral when it breaks, so I don't consider it here) It honestly feels like this ability just fell through the cracks and should have been changed along with everything else.



I do agree that it is pretty boring to play. The removal of stance dancing really took a lot of the complexity of the job away. I would be fine with adding some more oGCD skills, a DoT, or really anything else to add a bit more to the job. See below for my thoughts on secondary stats between classes.




I have to disagree with you on this point. I do like to see all the big numbers during my IR window and the only way to remove the different effect that secondary stats have on the job would be to rework this mechanic completely. It is a bummer that you can't reuse the same gear as the other tanks, but this is a small price to pay for maintaining class identity.

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Again, that's why I stated opinion and personal request. I just wonder that because of how WAR is right now, its also limiting the chances of them giving them new skills at all.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Again, that's why I stated opinion and personal request. I just wonder that because of how WAR is right now, its also limiting the chances of them giving them new skills at all.

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That's certainly a part of, but I wouldn't worry to much. WAR has been one of the developer's favorite children for a long time. I will not be surprised if it gets a lot of love in the next few months.

A simple way to fix melding issues would be to actually meld by jobs but not by gears like glamour works kinda

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

It doesn't mean that War need a potency buff, maybe it needs some changes, but potency wise is perfectly fine.

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So sayeth the 70 WAR yikes. Why should WAR deal more damage? Because it makes sense. Loladin has a shield. Its identity is mitigation. WAR has a GIANT BLOODY AXE. Its identity is caving in peoples skulls. Get that through THY thick skull. Now let's hear the reasoning you have for any other tank being the top DPS. Since you bloody well seem to have an firm unwavering opinion on this.

God jesus can we just rollback to HW jobs already. Simply make BRD not a bloody bowmage and all is well. The job design since SB has sucked so goddamn much catering towards dropkicks that QQ'd about Cleric Stance and swapping to Deliverance.

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Originally Posted by aleios_dvs

So sayeth the 70 WAR yikes. Why should WAR deal more damage? Because it makes sense. Loladin has a shield. Its identity is mitigation. WAR has a GIANT BLOODY AXE. Its identity is caving in peoples skulls. Get that through THY thick skull. Now let's hear the reasoning you have for any other tank being the top DPS. Since you bloody well seem to have an firm unwavering opinion on this.

God jesus can we just rollback to HW jobs already. Simply make BRD not a bloody bowmage and all is well. The job design since SB has sucked so goddamn much catering towards dropkicks that QQ'd about Cleric Stance and swapping to Deliverance.

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Paladins have a sword, shield AND magic that works with them.
This argument about having the biggest weapon around doesn't justify you being the biggest damage dealer.

It's just like D&D right now - Paladin dishes out the most, while the Barbarian literally is unkillable while enraged.

And the Warrior is the embodiment of that. They are simply too angry to die.

Onslaught:

• GNB loses 80 potency for using Rough Divide charges outside of No Mercy, and a further 105 or so for not using them during raid buffs atop that. (80-185)
• PLD loses 100 potency for using Intervene charges outside of Fight or Flight, and a further 110 or so for not using them during raid buffs atop that. (100-210)
• DRK loses ~55 potency for using Plunge charges outside of Trick Attack/Battle Litany/Chain Strategem/Battle Voice and nothing without raid (de)buffs. (0-55) I personally have little issue with this advantage as DRK is the OG gap-closer tank and its ShB iteration is built around this kind of flexibility.
• Onslaught does 5 potency per gauge while Fell Cleave does 590 but has the further cost of a GCD, for which Warrior averages 293.33 potency with a further 30 Beast Gauge gain (worth, then, around a further 180 potency or 60 ppgcd for a true total of 370.33 ppgcd), and advantage of 5 seconds trim from Infuriate, worth 8.3% of the bonus of Inner Chaos over ppgcd for ~46 potency. Fell Cleave thus deals about a nominal 300 bonus potency per gcd or an effective 265 bonus potency per 50 Beast Gauge, about a .3 potency per gauge advantage or about a 6% increase in efficiency... That's the second best efficiency for free use behind DRK, who uses it entirely for free. Increasing it to even 110 potency would already bring it faintly ahead of Fell Cleave. It just lacks for the double-dash functionality, since it would otherwise still go to waste as mobility, being plugged instead into Inner Release for a further free 67 potency per minute. If we could somehow make the second charge of Onslaught not be affected by IR, I could go for having a second charge, but that's about it.

Storm Eye duration:

• Frankly, the duration buff on Jinpu/Shifu was dull enough on SAM in the time it took to have any real reason or need for the buff (SkS devaluation, TG, longer Meikyo duration, and--more subtly--one's inability to trim Sen now that Hagakure is a trap) that it's quite turned me off to the idea. I'd honestly rather keep Storm's Eye duration about where it is. I'll gladly listen to other alternatives where they might find ways to decrease the initial ramp-up time necessary, however. Heck, you could trade out Onslaught potency outright for an Attack Speed increase on your next couple GCDs. At an average potency of, say, ~400 ppgcd, it'd only take a 12.5% Attack Speed buff to return Onslaught's potency value. That said, I doubt I'd like the impact that would have on the IR window, where, especially paired with raid buffs, such an advantage would be badly overpowered.

Vengeance:

• We're not really lacking for AoE damage, I thought? That's about the only place this would be significant. I'd argue WAR needs little if any potency buffs in single-target, either, and even if it did I'd sooner take the adjustment through other abilities.

Inner Chaos:

• Does the super nuke pairable with Nascent Flash for a nuke-heal really need a buff? I'd have to argue not...

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Paladins have a sword, shield AND magic that works with them.
This argument about having the biggest weapon around doesn't justify you being the biggest damage dealer.

It's just like D&D right now - Paladin dishes out the most, while the Barbarian literally is unkillable while enraged.

And the Warrior is the embodiment of that. They are simply too angry to die.

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I don't fully accept this counter argument. I think the identity of being a zerker certainly justifies it. Holy hell our goddamn eyes glow.
My justification in my eyes still stands. D&D does it? Magic that works with them? What does that even mean?

Too angry to die? Exactly. We're nutcases. Axe swinging skull crushing psychopaths. God even the sound design screams FUCKING KILL. Kinda shits all over the class identity when the piddly little peasant with this cricket bat of a sword does more damage.
It's a subjective thing to be sure. But goddamn son. I need me some numbers dammit. You don't see PLD and DRK players having skull goblets to drink the blood of their enemies from. Meanwhile the GNB is too busy trying to figure out if he should be stabbing or shooting someone.

Since we're going with analogies. A PLD is like a human from star trek. Uses brain. A WAR is like a Klingon. Uses KILL.
I think it would make sense for PLD to contain a wider damage mitigation toolset and the WAR having one based on KILL. Like how it was since forever. It's just the the poor PLD got screwed the hell over for so many expacs where it was pure suckage. Let's just like not do that again and we good.

I don't see what the actual problem with this is. But hey I'll be reasonable. Give me my goddamn skills back PLEASE. Give me deliverance back. Give me BB combo. Anything to make the rotation less like PLD was from 2.0-4.0. 1-2-3 boring me. The homogenization craze that SE seem to be on has made this expac sooooo incredibly boring.

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Originally Posted by aleios_dvs

So sayeth the 70 WAR yikes. Why should WAR deal more damage? Because it makes sense. Loladin has a shield. Its identity is mitigation. WAR has a GIANT BLOODY AXE. Its identity is caving in peoples skulls. Get that through THY thick skull. Now let's hear the reasoning you have for any other tank being the top DPS. Since you bloody well seem to have an firm unwavering opinion on this.

God jesus can we just rollback to HW jobs already. Simply make BRD not a bloody bowmage and all is well. The job design since SB has sucked so goddamn much catering towards dropkicks that QQ'd about Cleric Stance and swapping to Deliverance.

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Heavensward had by far the worst tank balance of any expansion in this game's history but of course, some people really are nostalgic for Warrior having both the best DPS, raid mitigation and personal mitigation in the game by a wide margin. Heavensward Warrior cannot come back ever because a job with the highest tank DPS by a huge margin, a 3 minute immunity, a 2 minute sentinel while all the other tanks have a 3 minute one, and a permanent -10% damage debuff attached to a combo is, fundamentally, impossible to balance.

I am not saying it should come back exactly as it was. What is this place? Cherry picking central? I want the old skill flow brought back into warrior. I don't care about the cooldowns. They're fine as they are now.

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Originally Posted by aleios_dvs

So sayeth the 70 WAR yikes. Why should WAR deal more damage? Because it makes sense. Loladin has a shield. Its identity is mitigation. WAR has a GIANT BLOODY AXE. Its identity is caving in peoples skulls. Get that through THY thick skull. Now let's hear the reasoning you have for any other tank being the top DPS. Since you bloody well seem to have an firm unwavering opinion on this.

God jesus can we just rollback to HW jobs already. Simply make BRD not a bloody bowmage and all is well. The job design since SB has sucked so goddamn much catering towards dropkicks that QQ'd about Cleric Stance and swapping to Deliverance.

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Okay.
1.) Shields were historically used for offense in tandem with whatever weapon was being wielded in the other hand - and very effectively so, I might add. Having a shield does not automatically mean someone does nothing but defend.
2.) Dark Knight uses a sword as big as - and sometimes bigger than - itself. It swings this weapon with enough to force to red mist any normal person that happened to get hit with it.
3.) Gunbreaker's weapon functions by using explosions to massively accelerate its swing speeds, superheat its blade, and even gain massively increased cutting power through edge vibration. The job also revolves heavily around finesse and skill despite having such a high impact weapon and excessively offensive fighting style.

Oh, and all three of these jobs make far more extensive use of aether than Warrior does.

Yes it does need potency buffs. Warrior does NO DAMAGE outside of inner release. thats 80s of you just being stupid. mediocre fell cleave is a joke. and that is all you do, other than maybe one upheaval every 30s. crit makes a massive difference to OTHER WARRIORS you are competing against (gear discrepency), the scaling is not nearly as high as you are making it out to be. it wont be a significant enough change nor is it a justification to not provide potency buffs.

if you cannot get your IR off and it needed to get off [example, the rdps is so high you cannot use it (good example is E1S adds)] you suffer a bigger loss than anyone who is not bursty. this is the issue putting all of warrior's damage in a tiny 10s window. not only that, with the existance of NF which provides ways to self heal, you do not do enough damage to compare to the other tanks as their dps is spread out. so if you miss a FC or a window for IC, you are punished brutally compared.

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Warrior doesn't need any DPS buff.

Extend Storm's Eye duration is ok, it could help.

I dont understand why ppl playing warrior feel bad if they are not Tank Top DPS...I dont see the point...Its like they think that Top DPS for Warrior is a must...when it doesn't make any sense. Maybe is because War used to be tank Top DPS in old expansions like Stormblood or Heavensward? i dont know.

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Warrior was only top tank dps in Stormblood. Warrior and Dark Knight were competitive in dps. only paladin stood no chance. it does make sense. Paladin offers a massive opportunity in rDPS gains with the toolkit for utility. warrior only has shake it off, which costs resources. However, this means Dark Knight needed a bit more as it too didnt have as much ultility.

storm's eye being bumped 40s is not just "ok", it would make a massive difference and will definitely be a dps gain. there are times you have to spam eye twice just to make sure it doesnt fall off before IR. No other tank needs to prepare a self-buff like eye before their burst phase. this often at times can just push back your burst due to boss jumps or mechanics and costs the warrior synergy with the party. this isn't just some "okay it could help", this is something that will help.

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Vengeance potency should be added to WAR's abilities. If it adds about 165-220 potency per two minutes, add some potency to eye and path to make up for that.

At 200 potency Onslaught does more DPS than a fell cleave. Fell cleave is a 590 potency move at 50 gauge and 3 onslaughts is 60 gauge at 600 potency. However, Fell cleave costs a GCD and onslaught does not. This puts Onslaught at a potency gain over fell cleave.

WAR really doesn't need potency buffs. Just QoL buffs. DRK needs potency buffs if anything.

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if you made onslaught do more damage, then it would be a dps loss if you did not use it. it being low makes the gapcloser essentially for free, which gives warrior far more mobility than the other tanks. buff upheaval and add more ogcds. warrior needs at least ONE MORE. if anything, that is what IC should have been.

warrior needs both. but it also needs potency nerfs (Fell Cleave and possibly Inner Chaos as well).

war needs animation buffs. Do not call it a new ability and not even provide it with a unique animation. they need to buff Holmgang by removing the bind to the enemy.

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Storm eye seems fine buff but that seems more like a quality of life change than a buff. Vengeance would just force WAR to be MT as it kinda already does with its damage tied to it, if you have a WAR OT you are losing damage. Inner chaos doesn't come up enough for this to be a signifcant buff to their numbers so it wouldn't be much of a change.
Making onslaught better would be nice, but how the job flows you don't onslaught unless you have to, during IR, or if you somehow need to dump beast gauge. Onslaught would need to be more of a DPS gain than Fell cleave for players to use it. Upheavel works because its a signicantly higher scaling with beast guage and damage vs fell cleave.

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you can just swap. you have provoke and shirk. simple solution.

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They are not going to buff damage of any of the tanks, just some deffensive stuff.
It is their statement from the live letter.

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SE says a lot of things. That doesn't mean they actually stay true to their word or follow what they say. Before the current expac came out, they acknowledged that warrior is the MT and that they wanted to make it so there were two MTs and two OTs, and look what happened? a new tank was a MISTAKE.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Oh, and all three of these jobs make far more extensive use of aether than Warrior does.

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Warrior literally raises dust storms around itself from emitted aether. That Warrior may use it less than the other tanks doesn't mean that Warrior would gain nothing of significance from their use of it. Nor should "use of aether" alone explain relatively poorer tank performance.

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Originally Posted by millktea

warrior only has shake it off, which costs resources.

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No, it doesn't. It will still do 12% target HP absorption (greater than Divine Veil on co-tank, about even on melee, and only a bit worse on everyone else, atop affecting self while Divine Veil will not and stackable with ToB and TBN for 57% HP absorption) on a 25% shorter CD and without a healing activation requirement even if you feed it no resources. You also can feed it only the last 1 to .5 seconds of said buffs if you wish as their remaining duration does not matter at all. A well-used Nascent Flash provides more restoration than Intervention does mitigation except vs. one-shot mechanics and self-heals in the bargain. Both of those WAR tools are technically superior to PLD's. WAR just lacks Passage of Arms; that's it. As does GNB and DRK, who instead offer every 90 seconds nearly the same strength against raid damage as Passage of Arms does every 2 minutes despite the latter requiring no movement or actions over its use.

PLD offers the least free combined HPS/APS to its co-tank over time and its one additional raid mitigation skill is painfully situational. Aurora + HoS, TBN, and NF all outperform Intervention (the worst on-demand cross-mitigation skill) and Cover (a skill which deals no mitigation yet costs an Intervention or Shelltron).

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Originally Posted by Lyth

When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

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Fair enough. However...

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Originally Posted by Lyth

WAR hasn't really changed that much since Stormblood. If you're finding it boring now, then it almost certainly was boring then, too.

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This... is badly erroneous or oversimplified, depending on how obtuse you intend to be. We might as well say that DRK without MP, lifesteal, Blood skills, or shadow aesthetics would still be just the same as when it had those things.

By all means, if you didn't enjoy the job before, don't feel compelled to give it even a fair shake now. But let's not call what was drastically changed for the less involved or entertaining for a significant number of players "unchanged".

When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

WAR hasn't really changed that much since Stormblood. If you're finding it boring now, then it almost certainly was boring then, too. The only difference is that it has gone from being boring and mandatory, to being boring and optional. And that, my friends, is a true quality of life improvement.

Divine Veil has a 90 second recast now.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Warrior literally raises dust storms around itself from emitted aether. That Warrior may use it less than the other tanks doesn't mean that Warrior would gain nothing of significance from their use of it. Nor should "use of aether" alone explain relatively poorer tank performance.

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My response was to a post about job identity, part of which is a job's lore and the nature of its abilities beyond just their numbers. Part of their reasoning for warriors deserving to be top DPS was that they carry a giant axe. If having a giant axe qualifies as a valid argument, then I would posit that pointing out the job's lack of aetherial manipulation as compared to the other tanks should be a permissible counterpoint. I am unsure as to why that poster believed their possession of a giant axe justified giving them higher DPS than the other tanks, however. Regardless, my response to them was largely tongue-in-cheek, as there is no valid justification for giving warriors higher damage than the other tanks with current design accounted for, particularly if we consider that GNB exists.

In any case, to reply to the rest of the thread: I do not feel that warriors are currently disadvantaged. They just aren't the dominating force they were before. The other tanks certainly deserve their chance to shine, and the excellent balance SE has struck between them at this point in the game has provided just such an opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

My response was to a post about job identity, part of which is a job's lore and the nature of its abilities beyond just their numbers. Part of their reasoning for warriors deserving to be top DPS was that they carry a giant axe. If having a giant axe qualifies as a valid argument, then I would posit that pointing out the job's lack of aetherial manipulation as compared to the other tanks should be a permissible counterpoint. I am unsure as to why that poster believed their possession of a giant axe justified giving them higher DPS than the other tanks, however. Regardless, my response to them was largely tongue-in-cheek, as there is no valid justification for giving warriors higher damage than the other tanks with current design accounted for, particularly if we consider that GNB exists.

In any case, to reply to the rest of the thread: I do not feel that warriors are currently disadvantaged. They just aren't the dominating force they were before. The other tanks certainly deserve their chance to shine, and the excellent balance SE has struck between them at this point in the game has provided just such an opportunity.

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Ahh, I see. Sorry I missed the (deserved) off-handedness of the response.

Personally, if there were other things at nearly the value of rDPS, I wouldn't mind seeing Warrior be the "skipped utility; more wham-wham" tank. But I also think it'd waste opportunities that'd be at least as interesting in the form of Warcry-type raid utilities or the like, as its own answer to the utility capacity of other tanks alongside its similarly equal damage.

Nonetheless, I agree that as things stand now, there is neither space nor reason for an intentionally "lead rDPS" tank, exactly. I'd also agree that number-wise, WAR's position is nearly fine. There are some parts of its internal balance and significant losses to its iconic capacities (e.g. lifesteal, which it specialized in prior to DRK) that I'd love to see patched, but that's a separate issue. I'd also personally prefer that GNB had just a bit more utility in place of a smidgen of its damage. Heck, I'd prefer that DRK's Living Shadow was a bit more responsive and Blood Weapon effectively lasted almost a half-second longer -- which might well be enough to push it up to PLD and GNB already, despite arguably having the most OT APS/HPS of the bunch (which might make it then be a tad too powerful, in which case I'd be fine with a 20% TBN, as that'd also be more future-proofed against future issues by which it'd be near impossible to pop in certain dungeons). But for the most part I'm pretty happy with tank balance this time around.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

WAR hasn't really changed that much since Stormblood. If you're finding it boring now, then it almost certainly was boring then, too. The only difference is that it has gone from being boring and mandatory, to being boring and optional. And that, my friends, is a true quality of life improvement.

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Except it isn't equality. Warrior is straight up inferior to the other three tanks, albeit only slightly. It has zero buff synergy due to guaranteed Direct Hi Crits, it has a weaker overall defensive kit than Paladin and flirts with being dead last in DPS. Add to that Onslaught abruptly became the worst gap closer (baring its range) and Storm's Eye, and it's hard to call Warrior being equal.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Except it isn't equality. Warrior is straight up inferior to the other three tanks, albeit only slightly.

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And that's fine.
Every job is viable enough to clear things, but certain jobs in roles make it work a bit better for progression, so some land on the bench.

Not everyone can be picked.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Snip

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No worries. I may not have made the intended sarcasm clear enough. A consequence of writing the post while exhausted, perhaps.

Anywho, I'm inclined to agree with you; both about WAR probably needing minor tweaks insofar as its internal balance and iconic abilities go and about DRK's God awful blood weapon window. The former could do with having a bit of its individuality restored, if nothing else. The good news is that WAR's stat scaling is usually quite good. There's no telling what their DPS will be compared to the other tanks as the expansion carries forward, but I'd wager it'll at least end up on par with PLD in terms of overall damage output. Poor balancing in the past allowed it to become godlike compared to the other tanks, but that probably (and rightfully) will not be the case this time. SE did a good job.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Not everyone can be picked.

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The difference between tanks is so minute this time around that what differences in performance they DO have should really only matter to people racing for world firsts. For everyone else, any tank is perfectly fine. They're all more than just "viable" this time. And what's more, the two tanks whose damage is on the slightly lower end compensate for it by having hilarious amounts of durability.

Normally I'd say being able to clear content isn't a hallmark of good tank design, but all of the tanks are so close to each-other in terms of offense and utility that it honestly is irrelevant. WAR has crazy good personal cooldowns and still has the best cheese skill in Holmgang considering its hilariously short cooldown, and DRK is basically unbreakable except he can put that shield on other people if he so chooses.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

And that's fine.
Every job is viable enough to clear things, but certain jobs in roles make it work a bit better for progression, so some land on the bench.

Not everyone can be picked.

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Why is it fine one tank has several clunky or downright unintuitive gameplay aspects while also doing the least damage? No one is saying Warrior has to be buffed back to meta status. They're simply pointing out flaws in its design. Saying that because it isn't laughably behind ala Ninja it shouldn't matter is just silly.

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

Normally I'd say being able to clear content isn't a hallmark of good tank design, but all of the tanks are so close to each-other in terms of offense and utility that it honestly is irrelevant. WAR has crazy good personal cooldowns and still has the best cheese skill in Holmgang considering its hilariously short cooldown, and DRK is basically unbreakable except he can put that shield on other people if he so chooses.

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Actually... Holmgang is nowhere near as valuable this tier. There are very few tank busters and auto attacks are a complete joke. Titan is the sole exception... and Holmgang is the only immunity that requires additional CDs because it won't last through all of Stonecrusher. So you need say, Thrill/Rampart and Holmgang.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Actually... Holmgang is nowhere near as valuable this tier. There are very few tank busters and auto attacks are a complete joke. Titan is the sole exception... and Holmgang is the only immunity that requires additional CDs because it won't last through all of Stonecrusher. So you need say, Thrill/Rampart and Holmgang.

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I guess that's a fair point, the fight setups don't really lend themselves to holmgang cheese the same way Halicarnasty did for instance. That being said, I stand my statement about tanks being close enough together where complaining about tank balance is kinda silly. WAR does need some serious QoL improvements though... for instance I'm not sure why onslaught still has a beast gauge cost since it makes it by fear the LEAST usable gap closer when it used to be the more spammable one between it and DRK; keeping its short CD but not allowing it to have charges like the other tanks would work well enough. And there is no reason nascent flash shouldn't be self-targetable considering it lasts for so little time that the nanosecond you lose targetswapping is a non-insignificant portion of its duration and the bonus it applies to other people is laughable.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

And that's fine.
Every job is viable enough to clear things, but certain jobs in roles make it work a bit better for progression, so some land on the bench.

Not everyone can be picked.

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There is a difference between being viable and feeling like crap to play, and WAR is probably the worst feeling tank to play. DRKs have their own problems with the fact they became "WAR" in a sense but WAR had a pretty big issue where it felt like crap to play even in SB when IR was on cooldown. There were optimization and tools at their disposal however requiring a WAR to have thought or situational awareness of fights. They had the best tank stance in the game with the ability to go into it with 0 penalties, their DPS stance required knowledge of when to fell cleave and when to hold it for the passive crit buff increase. With the changes in ShB they lost both of these tool pieces that gave them depth leading to a tank that takes away any thought and gives out the damage that makes sense to it. The problem is, many WAR mains feel like this was forced upon their job when they didn't want that.
There is a reason why WAR is the least played tank right now, by a fairly signifcant margin. There is a reason players don't bring WARs into most of the savage fights except for Leviathan mainly because its the one fight where DRK/WAR comp makes it very easy to deal with as tanks.
That doesn't mean we can't be irritated at this.

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

I guess that's a fair point, the fight setups don't really lend themselves to holmgang cheese the same way Halicarnasty did for instance. That being said, I stand my statement about tanks being close enough together where complaining about tank balance is kinda silly. WAR does need some serious QoL improvements though... for instance I'm not sure why onslaught still has a beast gauge cost since it makes it by fear the LEAST usable gap closer when it used to be the more spammable one between it and DRK; keeping its short CD but not allowing it to have charges like the other tanks would work well enough. And there is no reason nascent flash shouldn't be self-targetable considering it lasts for so little time that the nanosecond you lose targetswapping is a non-insignificant portion of its duration and the bonus it applies to other people is laughable.

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Ultimately, I agree. While I do think Warrior could use a very small potency buff, it's more QoL changes that should be the focal point. You've touched on two but another two I want to mention are Storm's Eye and Direct Hit/Crits. The former has become needlessly cumbersome now. It should either be increased to a 40 second duration or even 60 ala Darkside. I wouldn't be opposed to having it removed entirely because unlike old Delirium, it isn't fun or rewarding to use. You then have the DhC, which make Warrior the only tank who should never touch Direct Hit. Not only does that mean you need different melds but Warrior cannot interact with three of the most prolific buffs in the game: Battle Litany, Battle Voice and Chain Stratagem. Honestly? If they removed this aspect, it likely solves the narrow damage discrepancy Warrior has.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Wow you are completely insufferable reign your ego in son. You claimed it to be nearly linear which is blatantly untrue. Youve neither earned respect nor shown yourself to be worth any

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But, it is linear. A .05% expected damage increase from Critical Hit is takes ~16.5 Critical Hit stat, whether currently at 430 CH or over 2400 CH.
When the slope (stat count per interval of return) is equal at any point in the function... it's linear.
Critical Hit does never changes its stat-per-%damage (or, %damage-per-stat) as the total stat value increases. Critical Hit, itself, is therefore linear.

Its only non-linearity is its interaction with Direct Hit, which provides only faintly more multiplicity than either's interaction with Determination.

You should probably look these things up before calling someone else both a liar and egotist...

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Actually... Holmgang is nowhere near as valuable this tier. There are very few tank busters and auto attacks are a complete joke. Titan is the sole exception... and Holmgang is the only immunity that requires additional CDs because it won't last through all of Stonecrusher. So you need say, Thrill/Rampart and Holmgang.

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I holmgang spears of paradise twice in 1s, 2x Rip Currents in 3s, and first Stonecrusher and 2 megaliths for 4s. That's 7 times in 4 fights, compared to my PLD co-tank who uses it HG 5 times in the 4 fights. I could do 3x Holm in 3s but my PLD uses HG on the first so he can have it back for black smokers later. Holmgang has plenty of value, maybe not AS valuable as before, but it's also easier to use now so I'll consider it a wash. It still has recast advantage regardless of whether a particular fight utilizes it.

"Oh but I need to use another CD for Stonecrusher".. And? It's free damage increase to have Vengeance and IR up at the same time. You're complaining about a CD you'd be using anyways because it happens so early in the opener..

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You then have the DhC, which make Warrior the only tank who should never touch Direct Hit. Not only does that mean you need different melds but Warrior cannot interact with three of the most prolific buffs in the game: Battle Litany, Battle Voice and Chain Stratagem. Honestly? If they removed this aspect, it likely solves the narrow damage discrepancy Warrior has.

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I was initially under the impression that WAR didn't benefit from raid buffs as much as the other tanks, but having kept an eye on it for the last few weeks - indeed as a WAR I get more from the group than my PLD does. Maybe it's our particular comp (DRG/MNK/RDM/DNC), but I get around 10% more damage from raid buffs than my PLD does. Crazy, I know. I figure it's mostly Brotherhood tipping the scales since it lines up perfectly with IR. Our DNC was going BRD for the first few weeks of prog, but then switched to DNC because it seemed to be better for the group overall, so I don't really have a comparison for BV.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I holmgang spears of paradise twice in 1s, 2x Rip Currents in 3s, and first Stonecrusher and 2 megaliths for 4s. That's 7 times in 4 fights, compared to my PLD co-tank who uses it HG 5 times in the 4 fights. I could do 3x Holm in 3s but my PLD uses HG on the first so he can have it back for black smokers later. Holmgang has plenty of value, maybe not AS valuable as before, but it's also easier to use now so I'll consider it a wash. It still has recast advantage regardless of whether a particular fight utilizes it.

"Oh but I need to use another CD for Stonecrusher".. And? It's free damage increase to have Vengeance and IR up at the same time. You're complaining about a CD you'd be using anyways because it happens so early in the opener..

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And what are your other CDs doing? All three bosses barely do any auto attack damage. While that doesn't make Holmgang crap—nor did I imply it ever was—it does make it less impactful. What made Holmgang stand out is how many busters you could shrug off. That isn't to say it should have stayed that way. Frankly, it was too good in fights like O8S and O12S. But my point is you can't point to it and say how much of an advantage Warrior has now.

Not complaining. I'm pointing out Warrior is the only tank that requires a second CD when the others don't. While Vengeance lines up for the first Stonecrusher, it isn't always up for each one you take. And frankly, it's better used for the auto attacks in lieu of sitting on it afterwards.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I was initially under the impression that WAR didn't benefit from raid buffs as much as the other tanks, but having kept an eye on it for the last few weeks - indeed as a WAR I get more from the group than my PLD does. Maybe it's our particular comp (DRG/MNK/RDM/DNC), but I get around 10% more damage from raid buffs than my PLD does. Crazy, I know. I figure it's mostly Brotherhood tipping the scales since it lines up perfectly with IR. Our DNC was going BRD for the first few weeks of prog, but then switched to DNC because it seemed to be better for the group overall, so I don't really have a comparison for BV.

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Yes, it's your comp. PLD gets nothing from MNK and RDM during its Holy Spirit window. You also have the best WAR comp outside of NIN as they all increase flat damage compared to BRD or DRG.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I was initially under the impression that WAR didn't benefit from raid buffs as much as the other tanks, but having kept an eye on it for the last few weeks - indeed as a WAR I get more from the group than my PLD does. Maybe it's our particular comp (DRG/MNK/RDM/DNC), but I get around 10% more damage from raid buffs than my PLD does..

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It's 100% your comp. WAR benefits less from crit/dh raid buffs but more from flat damage ones, because of being so bursty. It's already been the case since 4.2 IR change and matters even more now with Inner Chaos. This causes the issue where WAR's pdps can vary greatly depending on comp - you'll do great damage with nin, mnk, rdm, dnc, ast, but do crap in comparison if you get drg, brd, sch, whm and 2 pure dps.

Brotherhood is a wars best friend. Straight damage buff on same timer as IR with enough time to land some chaos in it as well. When more than 40% of our damage can fit in brotherhood windows, yes, you get massive amounts or raid buff damage. Remove that mnk and you will fall flat on your face.

The large crit rate buffs just do basically jack. But brother/TA are massive. Its bot thay raid buffs dont help, its that we are very polarized to specific raid buffs in a time when se is conciously reducing the focus on specific team comp synergy, war has strong specific job synergy.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

And what are your other CDs doing? All three bosses barely do any auto attack damage. While that doesn't make Holmgang crap—nor did I imply it ever was—it does make it less impactful. What made Holmgang stand out is how many busters you could shrug off. That isn't to say it should have stayed that way. Frankly, it was too good in fights like O8S and O12S. But my point is you can't point to it and say how much of an advantage Warrior has now.

Not complaining. I'm pointing out Warrior is the only tank that requires a second CD when the others don't. While Vengeance lines up for the first Stonecrusher, it isn't always up for each one you take. And frankly, it's better used for the auto attacks in lieu of sitting on it afterwards.

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The other tanks can't get both of those Megaliths because they are exactly 4 mins apart. That frees up CDs to be used elsewhere for both tanks. I spread out my CDs in the opener and we swap at geocrush until Car mechanic, then they're back up for the 2nd stonecrushers which we split. Nothing is wasted in that regard. If it's really that big of a deal then have your other tank take the first hit and Voke to take the 2nd and 3rd hits with Holmgang. There ya go, no longer need 2 CDs for Stonecrusher.

Besides, the reason they changed Holmgang is because it had a significant advantage which contributed to the tank imbalance. So it's a little disingenuous to now say "look WAR doesn't have the advantage anymore".. Yea, that was the point.. But there remain a few spots where it can be advantageous, and we don't know what future fights are going to look like yet either.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Brotherhood is a wars best friend. Straight damage buff on same timer as IR with enough time to land some chaos in it as well. When more than 40% of our damage can fit in brotherhood windows, yes, you get massive amounts or raid buff damage. Remove that mnk and you will fall flat on your face.

The large crit rate buffs just do basically jack. But brother/TA are massive. Its bot thay raid buffs dont help, its that we are very polarized to specific raid buffs in a time when se is conciously reducing the focus on specific team comp synergy, war has strong specific job synergy.

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Yea it's mostly Brotherhood and Embolden. I get 50-60 more from those than the PLD, but he gets 30-40 more from Chain and Litany.

Dunno if its been said or not but id like to see the warrior have 2 circle AOEs for the combo, I imagine something like a lvl 60 trait that makes mythril tempest our first AOE and then steel cyclone animation is our follow up.(obviously they would have to be tuned for damage) I think its awkward to have to rotate mobs during my aoe combo potentially ruining dps positionals and making it harder to get value from nascent flash without also investing infuriates or inner release

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

The other tanks can't get both of those Megaliths because they are exactly 4 mins apart. That frees up CDs to be used elsewhere for both tanks. I spread out my CDs in the opener and we swap at geocrush until Car mechanic, then they're back up for the 2nd stonecrushers which we split. Nothing is wasted in that regard. If it's really that big of a deal then have your other tank take the first hit and Voke to take the 2nd and 3rd hits with Holmgang. There ya go, no longer need 2 CDs for Stonecrusher.

Besides, the reason they changed Holmgang is because it had a significant advantage which contributed to the tank imbalance. So it's a little disingenuous to now say "look WAR doesn't have the advantage anymore".. Yea, that was the point.. But there remain a few spots where it can be advantageous, and we don't know what future fights are going to look like yet either.



Yea it's mostly Brotherhood and Embolden. I get 50-60 more from those than the PLD, but he gets 30-40 more from Chain and Litany.

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Yeah this has been my experience. My raid static havent had a mnk for all if stirmblood and ran drg and sch forever. It was pretty depressing how dependant we are on 1 jobs raid buffs while everyone else just kinda yolos with any comp and is fine. I finally have a mnk now, but lost the ninja, but i just wish se would lay off the force crit mechanic so we can be as flexible with raid buffs as everyone else. Especially since job dependant synergies were expressly on the chopping block for shadowbringers but they forgot about war requiring mnk to be good.

Inner chaos and inner cyclone should have their old abilities tied to them. Inner Chaos with 20% dog reduction and heal, Inner Cyclone with the heal per hit. Vengeance gets a slight damage boost and duration is 15 seconds.
Tanks 30% dig reduction skills should all be 15 seconds,and they should do different things also. DRK, mana regen per hit, 200 mp. PLD path gauge regen per hit and GNB 10% shield.

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Originally Posted by ZaqueXIII

Dunno if its been said or not but id like to see the warrior have 2 circle AOEs for the combo, I imagine something like a lvl 60 trait that makes mythril tempest our first AOE and then steel cyclone animation is our follow up.(obviously they would have to be tuned for damage) I think its awkward to have to rotate mobs during my aoe combo potentially ruining dps positionals and making it harder to get value from nascent flash without also investing infuriates or inner release

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Yeah... moving around to get overpower to hit everything sucks. Would be okay if you only had to do it once, but mobs move around as things die or as you move to avoid aoe, and having to reposition them to overpower several times a fight is kinda annoying. Should just both be 360 aoe at this point.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Yeah this has been my experience. My raid static havent had a mnk for all if stirmblood and ran drg and sch forever. It was pretty depressing how dependant we are on 1 jobs raid buffs while everyone else just kinda yolos with any comp and is fine. I finally have a mnk now, but lost the ninja, but i just wish se would lay off the force crit mechanic so we can be as flexible with raid buffs as everyone else. Especially since job dependant synergies were expressly on the chopping block for shadowbringers but they forgot about war requiring mnk to be good.

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I don't disagree, I just try to see it from both sides. The auto CDH is a relief on one hand because then you aren't dependent on any comp, on the other hand it limits our gains from some buffs while making others more attractive. My main issue is that it feels like having the CDH feature limited growth we could've otherwise had in it's place.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I don't disagree, I just try to see it from both sides. The auto CDH is a relief on one hand because then you aren't dependent on any comp, on the other hand it limits our gains from some buffs while making others more attractive. My main issue is that it feels like having the CDH feature limited growth we could've otherwise had in it's place.

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I dont really see it as a benefit in anyway. It just polarizes the job. In an potluck comp, war either hits it big with a ninja and mnk, and astro, or looses out with drg, sch, dnc, etc crit buffs. Every other job just kinda is happy with anything. Its the old days of ranged NEEDING a drg to be good. Sure it averages out as some partues have drgs, some dont, but it is very polarized which is the very thing SE is trying to remove by their own admission.

Its just stupid. Also salty because they took the best iteration of war thay existed (4.1) with very rewarding gameplay and dumbed it down into the cleave machine. Then doubled down in ShB with inner chaos to even further reduce the benefit of crit buffs. I mean, wars opener is basically 20 seconds (8 gcds) of 100% crit/dh spam. You know when all those yummy crit buffs are applied? For 20 seconds of that 20 sec window. Maybe you will get a heavy swing in on the end. Whooo..... Its just so damn frustrating to see even more problems created by this terrible design decision still creeping around years after a frustrating rework all because xeno started a QQ train about 'feels bad to have no crits during zerk'. You know what feels bad? Getting no benefit from the majority of raid buffs.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

I dont really see it as a benefit in anyway. It just polarizes the job. In an potluck comp, war either hits it big with a ninja and mnk, and astro, or looses out with drg, sch, dnc, etc crit buffs. Every other job just kinda is happy with anything. Its the old days of ranged NEEDING a drg to be good. Sure it averages out as some partues have drgs, some dont, but it is very polarized which is the very thing SE is trying to remove by their own admission.

Its just stupid. Also salty because they took the best iteration of war thay existed (4.1) with very rewarding gameplay and dumbed it down into the cleave machine. Then doubled down in ShB with inner chaos to even further reduce the benefit of crit buffs. I mean, wars opener is basically 20 seconds (8 gcds) of 100% crit/dh spam. You know when all those yummy crit buffs are applied? For 20 seconds of that 20 sec window. Maybe you will get a heavy swing in on the end. Whooo..... Its just so damn frustrating to see even more problems created by this terrible design decision still creeping around years after a frustrating rework all because xeno started a QQ train about 'feels bad to have no crits during zerk'. You know what feels bad? Getting no benefit from the majority of raid buffs.

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I'm not a fan of inner chaos either. It effectively lengethens the crit/spam opening as you mentioned and in addition to making some raid buffs not benefit wars, it has other issues too.

I know this is a tangent, but because of in er chaos and the way it works, in pvp wars almost have no chance really to use their combo. This makes the self healing off path completely useless. And in situations where there are no party members near by for nascent flash, the war effectively has no self sustain.

Going from havibg godly self sustain in pvp to having the worst self sustain of any tank is terrible.

Not to mention that its not fun having a burst window when that "window" means practically "all the time."

I totally agree that crit spamming window mechanic was kinda cool, but man does it cause some problems in several different areas of the game....

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