Why are white mages allergic to regen?

Can't tell if title is bait or poor wording but I always want to slap a [some] in between those words because it's never all of a single group.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

My gosh, and here I was thinking I was the only one noticing this trend.
https://themoviejudge.files.wordpres...razy-pills.gif


My FC can vouch for my recent frustrated rantings of WHM cohealers who must've missed their Regen job quests. Ever since getting into the EX trials (on AST), most WHM cohealers I've come across treat their HoTs (especially Regen) like the plague and are more preoccupied spamming Glare while I'm sitting unnerved over in Noct stance wondering if they just expect me to exclusively keep the MT healthy so they can keep up their DPS rotation. :rolleyes:

This behavior really blew up with the recent release of Eden to the point where I openly questioned if slapping Regen on the MT became some sort of "overhealing" and WHM's new meta was spam Glare and then use Assize for raid-wide damage and throw out Afflatuses on a whim and everything else is their cohealer's problem. I mean I can deal with that, but damn, have some decency to throw Regen on the MT before you start abusing your Glare button. Maybe I really shouldn't be in Noct Stance unless I get double AST?

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The other day I got into Dun Scaith with a WHM as co healer and yeah I noticed that as well. The Medica II was not present most of the time and I had to cover all the raid damage with my Aspected Helios and Helios alone. It's so overwhelming especially when most of the teammates fail the mechanics there lmao

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Can we trade places?
Healers keep regening me as I'm pulling, and stealing my aggro.

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lol

Yeah, I had a WHM do this in a dungeon last week. I was trying to pull multiple groups like most healers seem to prefer, WHMs especially, but they had to make my job harder apparently. It made it somewhat difficult to maintain order since I had to keep pulling an enemy or 2 off of either the healer or a random dps. Though I guess that's better than not being healed at all like another WHM I encountered, also last week. They barely healed and barely did any dps. They were very skilled at taking AoEs to the face, however.

No reason to use Regen if I dont have to. I have better and more effective skills on my toolbar. Regen for me is only necessary if I need extra healing in tough or Long fights..like my first blind run of The Twinning.
Ill toss up a Medica 2 on occasions just to keep everyone healed while I focus MT, or try to add in some DPS.

Medica II/Helios spam is so annoying... So, I think I wouldn't mind them using Medica II more sparingly. xD When I played WHM (and AST), what I would do is Medica II if there was no regen/regen was about to run out (if it was needed) then pop a normal Medica for another burst heal to heal up the party quickly if I expect there to be more heavy incoming damage, like in a raid or trial, if HP went real low.

In regards to medica 2 I use it combined with plenary indulgence (confession). I sometimes cast it, but I prefer to use swiftcast + medica 2. I use swiftcast on medica 2 expecting the dps to not die to mechanics.

Late as I am to this thread...

Optimal WHM play involves minimizing GCD heals. Regen is a GCD heal, thus you want to minimize it.

Now in the past sometimes you had to GCD heal and regen was the first choice, but it's not anymore. Using a lily heal means you effectively trade a 300 potency nuke for a 225 potency one, so it's a DPS loss, but less severe. So regen is much further back in line on heal priorities.

Saying stuff like regen should be always kept up is just flat out wrong. At least from an optimization standpoint. And SE shortening the duration of regen also makes its upkeep more annoying, even if you think it's worth the DPS sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

I don't think "put regen on me when I'm fighting, not pulling" is "micromanaging."

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He's talking about timing the last tick so it doesn't bleed over into the next pull, bit easier now that the durations have been halved, but still.

Pretty sure I'm not alone in having troubles adjusting to the new Reduced Regen Durations and Increased Regen Potencies and Lucid Dreaming CD still.
Though my 80 healer is AST, so my choices are kindof poof... and usually Horoscope + Aspected Helios + Horoscope takes care of most AoEs in the raid atm. Even then, I think a good half of the regen is wasted.

This is a problem?
Regen is a GCD, but its total healing potency per use is so high that it makes up for this by not immediately requiring you to blow all your OGCD's.
And while it would be nice if it was enough to get through all fights on the OGCD's alone, the average player.... is not what I would call "mechanically competent".
That 45 second cooldown on tetra doesn't seem so short when every fifteen seconds someone is eating a mechanic and getting a weakness stack.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

Regen + Benison = Time to Holy. Seriously once the tank is done pulling (or sometimes appears to be then decides to move after two seconds for some reason) I throw those up and get to spamming my DPS.

Usually by the time the stuns wear off, the bubble pops, and the regen is over I have myself a lily to restore whatever hp might have been lost. Is it optimal, probably not, but nobody has ever asked me to stop so...*shrug*

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Also this.

I love Medica 2 simply because of the greater AoE range it has. Great for helping to ensure it actually hits everyone. A lot of people don't seem to realize this aspect about it.

The condensing of its regen effect has been great too; it can now be more frequently used without wasting potency from overwriting the regen effect.

It might be a little too good now if I'm being honest.
Medica 2 doesn't heal any more than before, but with it doing all its healing in half the time its power has effectively been doubled.
That is to say, if you cast Medica 2 again immediately at the 15 second mark, you're getting 1400 potency party wide healing in 30 seconds instead of 700, if for some reason you need that much.
The main drawback of Medica 2 has always been that it takes a long time to get the full benefits from it, now it's duration is short enough that it kind of makes Medica 1 redundant.

I'll use Regen when I need to use Regen. If you'll make it out fine without Regen and just need maybe a tetragrammaton or Benison I'll use that over having to roll my GCD on a Regen.
I'll also use Regen if I have to move or I'm out of reliable oGCDs.

It's not that most WHMs forget to use Regen. It's simply optimizing your healing.

While I completely understand *why* it's the case, and I totally do believe healers should DPS when they don't need to heal... I really wish the whole "Do as much DPS as possible" mentality would die. I know WHY it exists, I just wish it didn't. God forbid they make it so that the challenge in healing is to, y'know, keep people alive via *healing* while also managing mana efficiency. Making everyone a DPS is very meh imo. Even DNC is a little bit of a disappointment for me as I had expectations of being a little bit more of a support than a DPS, which would have been a nice change of pace, but no, it's just a DPS that passively boosts one person's damage and has a cooldown to boos everyone's damage. It's fun, but... it sure would be nice to have a more supportive role than everything is DPS for once...

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I'll use Regen when I need to use Regen. If you'll make it out fine without Regen and just need maybe a tetragrammaton or Benison I'll use that over having to roll my GCD on a Regen.
I'll also use Regen if I have to move or I'm out of reliable oGCDs.

It's not that most WHMs forget to use Regen. It's simply optimizing your healing.

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Pretty much this. I mostly use Regen when I have to move anyway.

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

While I completely understand *why* it's the case, and I totally do believe healers should DPS when they don't need to heal... I really wish the whole "Do as much DPS as possible" mentality would die. I know WHY it exists, I just wish it didn't. God forbid they make it so that the challenge in healing is to, y'know, keep people alive via *healing* while also managing mana efficiency. Making everyone a DPS is very meh imo. Even DNC is a little bit of a disappointment for me as I had expectations of being a little bit more of a support than a DPS, which would have been a nice change of pace, but no, it's just a DPS that passively boosts one person's damage and has a cooldown to boos everyone's damage. It's fun, but... it sure would be nice to have a more supportive role than everything is DPS for once...

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I have to admit, the fact that WHM is capable of putting out so much DPS, which makes the DPS healer mentality stronger than ever, kinda kills the fun in a way. I enjoyed DPSing in my free time with not much on the line, now it kinda feels like if I'm not hitting tank numbers I'm doing bad.

Honestly unless I'm in a dungeon with a tank doing big pulls it usually feels like a waste of a global CD. You can heal most stuff with just your stuff that is off the global CD and just DPS.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I have to admit, the fact that WHM is capable of putting out so much DPS, which makes the DPS healer mentality stronger than ever, kinda kills the fun in a way. I enjoyed DPSing in my free time with not much on the line, now it kinda feels like if I'm not hitting tank numbers I'm doing bad.

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I hear you. You should be feeling *good* when you're doing decent DPS while keeping everyone alive, not feel like it's just a mandatory expectation to do that and any less is being a bad healer.

Because when you optimize your healing, there's no reason to use Regen frequently.

Some people here either don't heal or tank or both.

Yikes at tanks still losing threat to Regen. Tank ranged skill does stupid amounts of threat, use it and cycle through targets while moving.

Regen has amazing efficiency but it's in a bad state due to how damage intake is. All damage is now burst that can be healed with oGCD skills, as a White Mage. If a White Mage needs to use a GCD to heal, a Regen won't save the target.

Pretty much the only times to use Regen now are prepull (Divine Benison should be used too) or when a stray DPS didn't group up for AoE healing. During wall to wall pulls, a mid fight GCD cast that isn't a Cure II should be a Holy. The combined ~7 seconds of stun is a ton of damage reduction in addition to the AoE damage it deals.

Regarding Medica vs Medica II the HoT might not even be utilized, so the extra 300 MP is wasted. Anyways, once the White Mage gets Rapture, the other 2 become obsolete.

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

I hear you. You should be feeling *good* when you're doing decent DPS while keeping everyone alive, not feel like it's just a mandatory expectation to do that and any less is being a bad healer.

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I have high hope when they announce 5.0 will make healer more healer. However, when 5.0 arrive, boss is still not doing high damage and healing down time is at peak, except for AST. Then it is also suppose to be a balance patch, instead they just turn them into clone and giving powerful oGCD heal to almost heal pushing this healer focus on healing idea further away then ever.
5.0 were meant to be the chosen one, it was suppose to bring back balance of healer not destroy it.
I am quite disappointed for the change, I am not against putting out as much dps as one can while keeping everyone safe, but the healer focus on healing turn out to be just a fantasy. They could tune oGCD heal into a “emergency buy you sometime skill”, and harder hitting trash/boss, yet, we got tune deeper into the glorified green dps

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Pretty much this. I mostly use Regen when I have to move anyway.

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Yeah, same here.
Regen is my go-to GCD for when I have to move. Positining for Holy spam, running towards the boss, avoiding telegraphs, readjusting my position to have everyone in heal range etc. But I'll not mindlessy keep it up.
It's a really good GCD until the mid 50s. But even without Tetra and Benison, Assize, Asylum and Bene alone make for a sizeable amount of oGCD healing which often lets you skip on the GCD for Regen.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Can we trade places?
Healers keep regening me as I'm pulling, and stealing my aggro.

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Tanks adjust.

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Some people here either don't heal or tank or both.

Yikes at tanks still losing threat to Regen. Tank ranged skill does stupid amounts of threat, use it and cycle through targets while moving.

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Given your critique about people not healing and tanking (which I gather to mean that you have done both) I would have thought you'd be more cognizant of this issue.

It's not really that they're "losing threat" to regen; they could make tank actions pull infinite enmity and the issue would still remain.

The "losing threat" is just healers drawing initial aggro on mobs when the tank tries to pull a fresh pack but either uses a single target action like Shield Lob to do it or they fail to hit all of the enemies with their AoE attack (which often happens specifically as a result of a healer pulling initial aggro with regen) and therefore a tank expecting the enemies to move toward him might move in a totally different direction and they end up missing some of them with their AoE. Tank AoEs are not very large and without good practice it is easy to miss some incoming enemies with them (lag can also be a factor too)

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Given your critique about people not healing and tanking (which I gather to mean that you have done both) I would have thought you'd be more cognizant of this issue.

It's not really that they're "losing threat" to regen; they could make tank actions pull infinite enmity and the issue would still remain.

The "losing threat" is just healers drawing initial aggro on mobs when the tank tries to pull a fresh pack but either uses a single target action like Shield Lob to do it or they fail to hit all of the enemies with their AoE attack (which often happens specifically as a result of a healer pulling initial aggro with regen, and therefore a tank expecting the enemies to move toward him might move in a totally different direction and avoid their AoE)

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That's not the healer's fault for using Regen, though. It's the healer's fault for not tailing the tank.

Unfortunately White mages have recently discovered that regen is in fact not restorative magic... It is actually time magic...

That is right, the accelerated healing is not because you are getting healed, it is because you are ageing faster.

I've legit seen a WHM drop dead because he cast Regen.
Might have been bad positioning, but is it worth the gamble?
I'd rather not take my chances with allergic shock cause of the Regen spell...

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That's not the healer's fault for using Regen, though. It's the healer's fault for not tailing the tank.

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I'm not trying to attribute "blame" here either way. I'm merely trying to clear up the "lost threat" aspect of it, which doesn't really paint an accurate picture of what's actually occurring when healers end up drawing initial aggro as a result of HoTs (specifically, tanks do not "lose threat" in these scenarios because they had zero threat built up to begin with)

The suggestion that the whole "pulling aggro with HoTs" issue should be resolved by the fact that tanks have much more enmity on their actions now actually suggests that there is a misunderstanding of what the issue was caused by in the first place. As I said, it would not matter if they made tank attacks pull infinite enmity, if the tank for whatever reason doesn't actually hit all of the enemies with their attack, which is the only reason that HoTs have ever pulled aggro in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I'm not trying to attribute "blame" here either way. I'm merely trying to clear up the "lost threat" aspect of it, which doesn't really paint an accurate picture of what's actually occurring when healers end up drawing initial aggro as a result of HoTs (specifically, tanks do not "lose threat" in these scenarios because they had zero threat built up to begin with)

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It doesn't sounded like you wanted to blame anyone, I just wanted to clear this up. Though the healer actually is to blame, just not for what some people think.
I think it's far better to teach people how to proporly use mid-pull Regen instead of silently being annoyed, macroing it off or telling WHm "you don't use Regen pre-pull, never, don't, just stop". If I have a healer doing this but handling it poorly, I simply tell them that while it's okay to do it, they need to stay really close to me in case some of the things you mentioned happened.
It's for their own safety and there is no reason to stand miles away from the tank.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

That's not the healer's fault for using Regen, though. It's the healer's fault for not tailing the tank.

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That isn't really the point. The point is that healers shouldn't be using Regen before the pull anyway. Often enough mobs are spread out enough that the tank isn't able to tag them all in a single hit, and this what *should* be a clean pull is now cleanup control. The issue is further compounded when the tank is intending to pull several packs. The more mobs that slip past the tank because Regen pulled enmity onto the healer before the tank could tag em, the higher the likelyhood of the healer just straight up dieing.

Now, sometimes, sure, the tank is squishy and is getting ahead of himself pulling more than he can handle and the healler needs to throw a heal on him to keep him alive. You can't help bad tanks like that. But typically they know what they're doing and can handle the light taps of the mobs as they run through and don't need a heal until they're done with the pull.

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It doesn't sounded like you wanted to blame anyone, I just wanted to clear this up. Though the healer actually is to blame, just not for what some people think.
I think it's far better to teach people how to proporly use mid-pull Regen instead of silently being annoyed, macroing it off or telling WHm "you don't use Regen pre-pull, never, don't, just stop". If I have a healer doing this but handling it poorly, I simply tell them that while it's okay to do it, they need to stay really close to me in case some of the things you mentioned happened.
It's for their own safety and there is no reason to stand miles away from the tank.

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Every tank has their own way of dealing with this.

Personally, I don't have the patience to try to say anything to any healer who does pre-pull regens because whenever I have in the past, not ONCE have they ever acknowledged it or made any adjustments to their behavior. I also don't care enough (or have the space on my tank crossbars) to make a "HoT removal" macro. Therefore, I just deal with it, and keep trying to pull as well as I can, and if the healer occasionally takes some knocks on a pull for it, well, thems the breaks.

Only if they complain about it (which is rare unless it somehow gets them killed, which for me only tends to happen in situations like Deep Dungeon where mobs on the higher floors can and will kill unprepared non-tanks on pull) will I bother saying something like "well, you kinda asked for it..."

Only need to slot dia, holy and glare. Everything else is optional.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Can we trade places?
Healers keep regening me as I'm pulling, and stealing my aggro.

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Tank Mages ftw.

In dungeons where I'm the only healer, I'll use Regen on most trash pulls simply because most tanks seem to think that they can pull everything and then not use a single cd and I'll just *magically* be able to keep them up (fun fact: usually I can't). If I don't keep Regen up between hard casting Cure II (because it takes 30s in combat before I get my first lily), then even with the assistance of Assize and Lucid Dreaming I end up nearly oom... and then the tank immediately pulls the boss even though I'm only at 50% mp. I'm good, but I'm not that good.

For raids (like Eden) where I have a co-healer to work with, I prefer to focus on AoE reactive healing and dealing damage. I'm not going to bother with single-target HoTs that barely have any effect when the damage going out is both raidwide and significantly higher than the damage restored. That's a wasted GCD that I could have spent maintaining the whole group. I'll still do spot casts of single target healing (Cure/Cure II if I have a second, Tetra/Solace if I don't), but you're more likely to see Medica II from me than Regen, unless I'm pre-healing a tank buster.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I'm not trying to attribute "blame" here either way. I'm merely trying to clear up the "lost threat" aspect of it, which doesn't really paint an accurate picture of what's actually occurring when healers end up drawing initial aggro as a result of HoTs (specifically, tanks do not "lose threat" in these scenarios because they had zero threat built up to begin with)

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Most mob packs are roughly 3-4 mobs. Every tank except Warrior can use 2 of their gap closer abilities and a ranged skill. At that point, the tank has 3 targets regardless of what the healer does. If necessary, provoke does provide threat now and the cooldown is extremely short.

Slowing down and ensuring you have threat on everything as a tank is more important than just blindly pulling and rushing to the next target. Also, I can't tell you how many times I've had tanks not wait for an Adloquium cast to finish before starting a big pull.

It use to be a problem prior to 5.0 when it might take more than 1 hit to regain threat. Now, it's just a minor inconvenience, the main annoyance I've run into is healers just idling until 40% or DPS not AoEing.

For me and like others stated:

In normal eden raids, there's really no need for medica 2 or regen, at least IMO.

Raid wide damage I can just Afflatus Rapture and/or assize to top the party back to full. The other healer can finish them off.
If hard raid wide damage, i can use Plenary Indulgence and do even more healing and go back to DPS.
If thats not enough i can just pop my wings, reduce the party damage and pop my instant heals.
Then if thats still not enough... i'll pop another afflatus rapture lol. We are being spoiled by our strong instant heals.

I may occasionaly pop a regen on someone.

I use regen in dungeons when:
- tank has pulled the last set of mobs (together with benison while still running then proceed to spam holy)
- and again after i had to heal with tenta followed by more holy
- pre boss pull (due to the enmity changes it's no issue anymore)
other than that regen isn't needed.

In normal raids/trials:
- pre pull and during mechanics where I have to move
-after a hard hitting tankbuster together with tenta or a lily spell
- medica 2 after a hard hitting aoe

In ex trials:
-pre pull and during mechanics where I have to move
-after a hard hitting tankbuster together with tenta or a lily spell
-during tree phase
- medica 2 after a hard hitting aoe

Savage raids I assume i will have regen on MT a majority of the time.

There is no need to constantly have regen up anymore. The outgoing damage, yet again, is barely a tickle (altho part of me was hoping the "healers will have to heal more now" people were right). Most of it can be healed with ogcd's.
Tanks just need to stop panicking the second they fall under 90% HP.

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

That isn't really the point. The point is that healers shouldn't be using Regen before the pull anyway. Often enough mobs are spread out enough that the tank isn't able to tag them all in a single hit, and this what *should* be a clean pull is now cleanup control. The issue is further compounded when the tank is intending to pull several packs. The more mobs that slip past the tank because Regen pulled enmity onto the healer before the tank could tag em, the higher the likelyhood of the healer just straight up dieing.

Now, sometimes, sure, the tank is squishy and is getting ahead of himself pulling more than he can handle and the healler needs to throw a heal on him to keep him alive. You can't help bad tanks like that. But typically they know what they're doing and can handle the light taps of the mobs as they run through and don't need a heal until they're done with the pull.

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Did you take the time to actually read what I wrote? But it doesn't sound like it.
Your gripe with pre/ mid pull Regen is, that mobs turn towards the healer and run away and you have to pick them back up, which annoying and needlessly time-consuming. So far, so good.
Now if the healer properly tails the tank there is literally no downside to Regen because the scenario you describe won't happen. The mobs run towards your direction anyway, because that's were both you and the healer are.
If you pull big, you don't just run straight through 3 packs without doing anything anyway, so whatever mob might target the healer gets picked back up right away. And since they're stacked nicely, you will have no trouble getting them all with one AoE.
It's no problem at all if the healer handles it accordingly. And that's what I was saying: if they do it, they need to handle it accordingly. If they don't tail the tank, it's their fault and they should be called out on it.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Did you take the time to actually read what I wrote? But it doesn't sound like it.
Your gripe with pre/ mid pull Regen is, that mobs turn towards the healer and run away and you have to pick them back up, which annoying and needlessly time-consuming. So far, so good.
Now if the healer properly tails the tank there is literally no downside to Regen because the scenario you describe won't happen. The mobs run towards your direction anyway, because that's were both you and the healer are.
If you pull big, you don't just run straight through 3 packs without doing anything anyway, so whatever mob might target the healer gets picked back up right away. And since they're stacked nicely, you will have no trouble getting them all with one AoE.
It's no problem at all if the healer handles it accordingly. And that's what I was saying: if they do it, they need to handle it accordingly. If they don't tail the tank, it's their fault and they should be called out on it.

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TBH I misread "tailing" as "telling", but either way it's still a needless risk to have regen on the tank before the pull. That is, of course, unless the tank is squishy, in which case you have way bigger things to worry about than whether the tank has a regen on him or not.

Honestly the reason is dps.

1 you have to burn lillys to use your big dmg attack and 2 regen makes you lose 1 cast of glare which is -15000 dmg.

If you constantly cast regen you are nuking your dps, and you do not need regen up constantly to be able to keep everyone alive.

Maximize dmg while keeping ppl alive = maximizing healing job.

Use it when movement is required, when there is a large party aoe and lilly/assize is not enough, and at tank busters. That is honestly all you need in the current content to keep everyone alive.

My main gripe about healers: not healing someone they just raised just for them to go back down from raid damage..... Something I had to learn going from SCH main to DNC, stand still till you get healed(2-3sec).... Idk how many times I see someone come up be low health for a good 5-8sec and then die from raid damage.