SE needs to do more to help bad players

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Originally Posted by CazzT

Considering how little DPS Healers are actually able to contribute, if this is what is causing the mobs to take forever to die, you have bigger issues than a Healer not DPSing.

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In the case of WHM that statment is false. They can put out quite a bit of damage especially in large group pulls. Also considering the stun on Holy you are preventing damage on the group for the duration, there is no reason for a WHM to not holy at least once on large pulls. If the tank is dying before the first Holy goes off, there's a mitigation issue.

You're assuming people would use a "Mechanics test zone".

I'm pretty sure we all know that "bad" players are players who don't actually care about being "good" or being effective and efficient. They just want to play how they want, everyone else in the party be damned. Then they complain about something being to difficult if they can't clear it because, either:

A. Its solo content and they can't get carried through it.

or

B. People don't want to carry them through it.

Because they should be able to click whatever buttons they want because they pay a sub so the game should cater to their laziness.

There are some that want to get better, but I wouldn't even consider them "bad" players, overall. They may be bad in terms of mechanics and/or damage but at least they are trying and willing to learn and grow.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

Just like moving out of stuff that doesn't one shot you isn't a requirement as a DPS, but as a healer I am almost certain you appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

No it isn't. The role is to deal damage. That's it. As long as the healer can keep you alive, you can keep doing damage even if you're taking damage.

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This is an example of what I am talking about. "I'm going to play poorly because even though I should be a team player the only thing that matters is me and what I want to do. The game has mechanics I should do or that let me do better and improve my gameplay but I don't care."

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by CazzT

I can't take anything else you say seriously when you're classifying this as a "major offense". And I'm not going to waste my limited number of daily posts to explain what I've already explained in numerous other threads. I will make the statement once and let people REEEEE about it to their hearts' content.

DPS is not a requirement of Healers.

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It's not a requirement but if you refuse to deal damage EVER as a healer then you are, imo, a bad player because you are using less of your kit and being less effective than you could be.

If you don't DPS but want to learn that is a different story. But straight refusing to help kill the enemies and stating it is not your "role" to deal damage just shows, to me, that you are not very good.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

I'm pretty sure we all know that "bad" players are players who don't actually care about being "good" or being effective and efficient. They just want to play how they want, everyone else in the party be damned.

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This may be true of some people, but I think it's a rather uncharitable and inaccurate interpretation generally. I strongly suspect that a lot of these players are simply new to MMORPGs and are coming from more traditional single-player RPGs and the like. Those games are generally a gigantic pass/fail system where you either win or you don't. You might be shown damage numbers for your abilities, but you typically won't have anything like DPS reported. There probably isn't much of anything in the game to help theorycraft stats or ability choices. The games themselves generally aren't terribly difficult and may very well have multiple difficulties. This means that you can kind of just do what you want and play your way, but it also means you probably have little to no idea how much of a difference it makes to play one way versus another. After all, the only feedback the game gives you is if the boss dies or not. FFXIV and other MMORPGs borrow enough from those older games that they at least superficially resemble them, so players probably bring their same basic approach with them into the game, where they're going to stick with it until they have their eyes opened.

While I would love to see an expansion to the Hall of Novices there's really no point unless actually doing the content was mandatory. Which, to be fair, I do think should be the case before Sastasha or if someone job skips a role for the first time. However even if it was made mandatory bad players will still persist and still demand concessions. At a certain point in this game people aren't playing poorly due to inexperience but instead just plain old apathy and with the knowledge they'll be carried anyways. Nothing will change the people who think they're owed the chance to be carried through everything because 'we don't pay their sub'. At least nothing that wouldn't cause a huge outcry.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

This may be true of some people, but I think it's a rather uncharitable and inaccurate interpretation generally. I strongly suspect that a lot of these players are simply new to MMORPGs and are coming from more traditional single-player RPGs and the like. Those games are generally a gigantic pass/fail system where you either win or you don't. You might be shown damage numbers for your abilities, but you typically won't have anything like DPS reported. There probably isn't much of anything in the game to help theorycraft stats or ability choices. The games themselves generally aren't terribly difficult and may very well have multiple difficulties. This means that you can kind of just do what you want and play your way, but it also means you probably have little to no idea how much of a difference it makes to play one way versus another. After all, the only feedback the game gives you is if the boss dies or not. FFXIV and other MMORPGs borrow enough from those older games that they at least superficially resemble them, so players probably bring their same basic approach with them into the game, where they're going to stick with it until they have their eyes opened.

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Oh yeah. I mention that in my post. Players who are actively attempting to get better and adjust and learn from their mistakes are, imo, not bad players. Being new has never been an excuse in my eyes as to playing extremely poorly. We all started this game with varying amounts of knowledge, but of no actual experience playing FFXIV and many of us have improved. If a player is new, and you mention they should do something or x is better than y and they straight ignore it or argue with you then they are a bad player, if they respond and/or ask questions and want to learn the game then they are a good player.

Some people may say they are bad, but if you suggest to them something or give them tips and the response and improve then they are not a "bad" player.

This is all my opinion btw.

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Originally Posted by Nims

FFXIV has the largest population of absolutely awful players and is the only MMO that I know of ( I could be wrong feel free to correct me) that doesn't openly allow parsers, people to correct each other for better gameplay, and or simply removing people without like a 2 hour cool down.

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Someone has never played LFR in WoW...
Or a world boss in Guild Wars 2...

The only MMO I have seen with good players is ESO. I am still trying to figure out why... but my theory is that they aren’t good... but that the mechanics of pre-max level boss fights and open world trash foghts just don’t differ much. Which means that if I ever hit max level there, I might find the same things as anywhere else.

All this said, I am no pro either.

What makes good players is a static that doesn’t give up after only 372 wipes... And I am not really exaggerating there.

Modern players lack wipe tolerance.

Extremely high wipe tolerance without “abandoning these scrubs” is the ONLY way to build up skill.

You want better players? Find the worst 7 other people you can, and stick it out with them all the time, run after run after run of slamming into walls and falling off ledges.

One day you will find out you and they are good.

Constant practice with each other is the only solution. No dev can short cut that for you. Start tolerating “bads” or you and they will never improve together.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

You do not need parsers in order to see who fails core mechanics.
SE will never ban anyone if he constructively criticizes another player and offers solutions, nor will they ban you if you kick players.

While I do think a "training hall" would be nice, WoW did attempt such a thing at one time and it didn't make much of a difference.

Why? Because 90% of the bad players are not interested in learning/improving. They just want to mash buttons and kill stuff / get rewards. Present them with a challenge and they will simply abandon the endeavor.

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The Proving Grounds in WoW were a good idea that should have been carried forward more than they were. They were not required to do anything BUT if you signed up for a PuG it would display your Proving Grounds rating (Gold, Silver, Bronze or nothing). That meant the best way to get yourself into a position where you could do harder content was to complete Proving Grounds at a Gold level.

They also provided Proving Grounds Endless where you would just keep going as long as you could. It rewarded a title but IIRC nothing higher than Gold was shown when signing up for a PuG so there was no social push to do Endless.

SE could implement a Proving Ground type thing. Hall of the Novice is similar, albeit much less difficult.

I say this as a garbage player, too.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

Someone has never played LFR in WoW...
Or a world boss in Guild Wars 2...

The only MMO I have seen with good players is ESO. I am still trying to figure out why... but my theory is that they aren’t good... but that the mechanics of pre-max level boss fights and open world trash foghts just don’t differ much. Which means that if I ever hit max level there, I might find the same things as anywhere else.

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The Elder Scrolls Online is an odd beast. The base dungeons tend to be very easy and merciful because of the huge diversity of builds the game allows people to have. Harder dungeons start to bring out the lack of positional awareness some players might have, or lack of rotation or gear sets that make no sense. Falkreath Hold, for example, is brutal and WILL start testing your patience if you go in with a bad group... Or a group of vampires. I went in with all vampires once, that was a...treat...

I agree with you, but the job role quest IS weeding out people who can't figure out mechanics. I know someone that can't finish the MSQ cause they can't figure out the mechanics of the physical dps role quest chain, so they are eveling up everything to 80 to see if something will help xD

or in some instances or raids you tell them to watch the videos, or at least read the guides that are available, but too many say they want to go in sight unseen. And for most players, that might be alright, but for the ones you refer to, its a really bad idea.

One thing I would have appreciated as I leveled different classes is if the job trainers actually... you know, trained you. Most of the time when you learn a new move at the end of a quest it feels kind of thrown in there with little to no explanation of how the action worked or when you should use it. Sure, that's what the tool tips are for, but when I first started playing the game I didn't know the value of actions, I mainly looked at how high the raw potency was. I had to learn from other people (who didn't explain to me in the kindest of ways mind you) how important DoTs and AoEs are.
I know all this stuff now and I'm glad for it, but I would have loved to have more of an in-game explanation of things. As far as I know DNC's first quest has the closest thing to an actual tutorial for its job.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

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I've done both and while I agree there's some complete shitters there, they aren't as bad and in such a large number as here.

The people you're talking about aren't the same group of people that OP and I (or atleast just me) are talking about. I'm talking about people like an AST I came across last expansion that was trying to do savage and had the nerve to ask "What's lightspeed?" How do you make it to end game and try to raid and not ever read your tooltips?? He got absolutely flamed and rightfully so but we could only do so because we were in discord. Guess who reads tooltips and reads guides now?

I agree that people here have next to zero wipe tolerance but practicing and wanting to get better =/= bad player.

Edit: Also no one has to tolerate bads, there's this weird middle ground between garbage players and really good players; average normal players. You can always play with them and you guys can always practice and improve together.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

Oh yeah. I mention that in my post. Players who are actively attempting to get better and adjust and learn from their mistakes are, imo, not bad players. Being new has never been an excuse in my eyes as to playing extremely poorly. We all started this game with varying amounts of knowledge, but of no actual experience playing FFXIV and many of us have improved. If a player is new, and you mention they should do something or x is better than y and they straight ignore it or argue with you then they are a bad player, if they respond and/or ask questions and want to learn the game then they are a good player.

Some people may say they are bad, but if you suggest to them something or give them tips and the response and improve then they are not a "bad" player.

This is all my opinion btw.

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I don't think simply telling someone that they're doing something wrong constitutes "opening their eyes" though. The players I am talking about may very well reject advice. The issue is that from their perspective, which doesn't include an understanding of how much this stuff matters, someone giving unsolicited advice–advice that often seems rather minor at that–simply makes you look intrusive and overly concerned. This view is reinforced by the plethora of stories of harassment from rampaging elitists or w/e that I'm sure we're all familiar with by now. Until they encounter something that causes them to have that epiphany that this stuff really does make a very noticeable difference, they may very well just ignore or rebuff advice for roughly the same reason most people don't use raid food and potions in dungeons: it's seen as unnecessary and doesn't enhance their fun, even if strictly speaking it's better. I think basically writing them off as hopeless is probably the worst way to handle such a player. Instead, a bit of patience and understanding, as well as giving them some room to breathe and kind of explore the game, will probably go a long way.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

So it's not your responsibility to avoid damage that you can avoid? In that case, it's not the Healer's responsibility to fix your mistake. Heal yourself.

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That statement is completely inane. You're the one trying to make the case that Healers don't need to dps because their job is to heal. So by your own logic, and by the very name of the role, it's the Healer's job to heal, not the other player's.

If you, as someone who doesn't see dps as a requirement for Healers, also tell a dps to "heal yourself", how do you even justify the existence of the Healer role?

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Originally Posted by Machka

That statement is completely inane. You're the one trying to make the case that Healers don't need to dps because their job is to heal. So by your own logic, and by the very name of the role, it's the Healer's job to heal, not the other player's.

If you, as someone who doesn't see dps as a requirement for Healers, also tell a dps to "heal yourself", how do you even justify the existence of the Healer role?

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You must be Gumby, stretching like that.
I'm not making a case for Healers to not DPS. Only someone looking for a fight would say this.
My reply was to someone who literally said that it's not the responsibility of DPS to avoid damage. If they're not going to do the bare minimum for their role, they can eat the floor.

And it's not a matter of whether I believe it's a requirement for Healers to DPS. It 100% is not a requirement. It is preferred. There is a difference. But you're eager for a fight and therefore you twist my words.

I don't have to justify not healing someone who refuses to do even the barest minimum required of literally everyone. Anyone who plays a Healer will tell you there comes a point where you let the DPS eat floor if they refuse to even try to avoid damage.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

Considering how little DPS Healers are actually able to contribute, if this is what is causing the mobs to take forever to die, you have bigger issues than a Healer not DPSing.

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You haven't been playing with very good healers. Granted overall healer dps is a bit down relative to everyone else in this expansion it is certainly not insignificant. Especially on trash pulls.

Back to the original topic though, I think many players don't realized how bad they are. They are hitting buttons, mobs are dying, how are they to know that in fact they are doing horrible dps and are being carried by the others? The game could at least tell the player how they are doing as other mentioned. It is beyond bewildering to me this game has enrage mechanics yet provide nothing that would help a team hitting enrage how to actually succeed.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

You must be Gumby, stretching like that.
I'm not making a case for Healers to not DPS. Only someone looking for a fight would say this.
My reply was to someone who literally said that it's not the responsibility of DPS to avoid damage. If they're not going to do the bare minimum for their role, they can eat the floor.

And it's not a matter of whether I believe it's a requirement for Healers to DPS. It 100% is not a requirement. It is preferred. There is a difference. But you're eager for a fight and therefore you twist my words.

I don't have to justify not healing someone who refuses to do even the barest minimum required of literally everyone. Anyone who plays a Healer will tell you there comes a point where you let the DPS eat floor if they refuse to even try to avoid damage.

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Exactly this, Heal can do DPS if needed but i only see bashing on them here once again, people pushign the Healer DPS subject because it fits there view, yet both Tanks and DD's get ingored of there responsiblity to avoid damage so Healers could DPS at all, healers are far more limited now as before in such on top. And i dare to say that most people who complain about Healers not DPSing not even look why they don't, since the new addon i expereince heavy mana problems in most of the instances, i simply can't Damage often due eather run out of mana or i know i will need my mana for some Wipe pase etc. Most who complain about Healer DPS probably not even see that a Healer is out of mana.

Yes there ate bad healers ot say but so do exist bad tanks and dps, but for god sake we focus on healing still, dps is fine if able to but we also have to take responsiblity of those who also refuse to avoid damage, if someone not does his job also i refuse to do mine, simple as it is, learning the hard way, if you not avoid damage you die and i not waste mana on dps because some DD thinks healer will fix his mistakes. Everyone is to blame then, not just healers.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

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I mean you literally said a healer dps is not a requirement but dps avoiding damage is a requirement. Based off what you said and how it was worded in I believe your second or third post, that guy is right.

It's not a 100% requirement for dps to dodge mechanics, it's preferred. If they take damage the healer heals them. If they die, that's what you have a rez skill for.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

Personally I think they’ve done quite enough to help casual or bad players, lol

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There's literally nothing else you can do.
You can put text on the screen (Steps did this and lo and behold that got nerfed)
to tell you what to do and people still failed it.
Got folks at level 80 and classes maxed, playing since 1.0 days STILL not stacking, still
not turning from the eye mechs, still not moving from AoE's.
Can't help people who can't help themselves and need to stop having their hands held for so long.

The only solution is for the community to kick more carries. The mindset needs to change at the upper end from "maybe they're just stupid/can't read" to "they've had long enough to learn" when someone hasn't learned to AOE by 70+.

Exile people that refuse to learn, and they'll quit, drop to trusts, or just not participate in higher level content after enough kicks. Either way is positive for the rest of us.

Another one of these?

https://thoroedge.files.wordpress.co...-gif.gif?w=604

Oh no bad players!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__oqV_kUSrw...nover+fist.jpg

Hangings to good for em!
Burnin to good for em!
They should be torn into itty bitty pieces..

AND BURIED ALIVE!

This is why you simply join a company of like minded players. If someone is not up to your skill level, changing the game isn't going to suddenly boost their skill level. I mean, they aren't bad really, they just lack certain skill sets to complete said needs. Prime example, ran The Ghimlyt Dark, healer kept dying non stop on last boss. I was patient, far more patient then DPS as they left one by one, to explain each mechanic, posting in chat when said mechanics were about to happen.

The healer still kept dying. Consistently. Changing the game would not fix that I am afraid. We finally beat it, by myself as the Tank and a lone DPS living to the final phase as others died, resulting finally in a victory. I do understand the frustration some experience though, since keep in mind, The Ghimlyt Dark has a 90 minute dungeon timer, and we beat it with 17 minutes left.

First off it is not SE's job to make ppl GIT GOOD. That is up to them. If they refuse to improve and are just horribly underperforming they should be excluded from content simple as that. Sounds toxic but it is not really.

To comment on a few things.

Whms hits for 6000-7500 on mobs for a non-direct hit/non-crit during a pull per holy. and around 13500-15000 per noncrit/dh hit on glare. That is actually quite alot of dmg. It is not dps lvl dmg at all but it is still not something small. If it makes ups 15-25% of the overall aoe dmg well that is how much faster you clear the dungeon. Same thing on bosses if you are only doing 5-8% of the total dmg on a long boss fight yea it is a smaller % amount, but that is still millions of dmg that was dealt that would not of been otherwise in that time frame.

As for aoe or not to aoe it is a simple calculation. Is the overall dmg from aoe (Dmg potency from Aoe X number of mobs) higher then single target. If the aoe is say 120 x 3 = 360 potency per attack is higher then the single target of 300... then aoe is more dmg. I see alot of blms and rdms aoe 2 mobs for example that is a massive dps loss overall, I also see the same amount single target large pulls to see "Big Numbers" but this is a massive dps loss as well.

In general alot of ppl do not take the time to truly learn their class, would not surprise me if less then 33% of the playerbase spends time on a practice dummy at all when getting a job leveled. I have outdmged numerous dps on whm in dungeons. Again you cannot help people who do not take time to learn themselves. It is like taking a test without studying before hand... on an easy test yea you can pass with a 70-75, but are you doing good... nope. Now take the final without studying... you get a 40-50 and fail. Can you clear dungeons playing extremely sub optimally yep easily maby with some issues on bosses... can you clear harder content playing sub optimally... nope not at all.

People getting hit by the same mechanics over and over after multiple attempts, that is 1 of 3 things.

1) The persons net or computer is utter garbage. IN that case they need to upgrade their stuff or try WtF, Pingzapper, or something like that if there is not better internet where they live.

2) They are just really bad and do not care (You cannot fix this).

To note if they are new to a fight I would expect them to make mistakes on mechanics.

3) They are a newer player and used a skip potion.... I personally expect ppl to know the basics of fights in FFXIV post lvl 50. Aka what does this AoE style marker mean (Do not stand in the shinny, Spread, Groupup, line aoe), Kill adds during dps checks, do not stand on shinny things on the ground (unless meteor markers). If you are new I would mention you are new to the game and if you could have mechanics explain. 19/20 groups will take a sec on each boss to explain what to do. Community is actually good about this on FFXIV. All in all If you are a brand new player and lvl skip.... DO THE TUTORIALS AND ASK QUESTIONS!!!!!!! Do not constantly kill your group.

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

This is why you simply join a company of like minded players. If someone is not up to your skill level, changing the game isn't going to suddenly boost their skill level. I mean, they aren't bad really, they just lack certain skill sets to complete said needs. Prime example, ran The Ghimlyt Dark, healer kept dying non stop on last boss. I was patient, far more patient then DPS as they left one by one, to explain each mechanic, posting in chat when said mechanics were about to happen.

The healer still kept dying. Consistently. Changing the game would not fix that I am afraid. We finally beat it, by myself as the Tank and a lone DPS living to the final phase as others died, resulting finally in a victory. I do understand the frustration some experience though, since keep in mind, The Ghimlyt Dark has a 90 minute dungeon timer, and we beat it with 17 minutes left.

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Alternatively you could've kicked the healer a long time ago and not left them with the impression they're fine as a healer. After all, they got the clear.

By the time they reach that dungeon they should know how to push buttons, or at least push buttons well enough to not make a fool of themselves like that. There's just no excuse.

It might feel "nice" to keep people around like that, but the best thing you can do in this situation for them is to kick them.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Alternatively you could've kicked the healer a long time ago and not left them with the impression they're fine as a healer. After all, they got the clear.

By the time they reach that dungeon they should know how to push buttons. There's just no excuse.

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I never have, nor ever will kick people trying to do MSQ dungeons. If I'm carrying them through it, so be it. Gunbreaker has high sustain and with movement can ignore or heal through many tank buster mechanics.

The other DPS were dying as well, so not like the healer was the only one at fault. Though it looks complicated, you can avoid 99% of the damage on that fight minus the group wide AoE's, AoE's that I simply healed the surviving DPS player through until final phase.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Alternatively you could've kicked the healer a long time ago and not left them with the impression they're fine as a healer. After all, they got the clear.

By the time they reach that dungeon they should know how to push buttons. There's just no excuse.

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Ya know, I just wanted to say that I use to think this mindset was horrible, and I still feel bad for kicking players who don't know what they are doing at endgame content - but the more I got into the endgame content, the more I started to think like this..

I've seen people not AOEing in level +50,+60, and +70 content, people dying to the most basic mechanics in farm parties. Healers doing 0 DPS in farm parties.. not even current farm parties.. unsynced HW EXs.

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

I never have, nor ever will kick people trying to do MSQ dungeons. If I'm carrying them through it, so be it. Gunbreaker has high sustain and with movement can ignore or heal through many tank buster mechanics.

The other DPS were dying as well, so not like the healer was the only one at fault. Though it looks complicated, you can avoid 99% of the damage on that fight minus the group wide AoE's, AoE's that I simply healed the surviving DPS player through until final phase.

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You need to learn to kick then, because you're not doing anyone favors by keeping them around. Not them, not yourself, not anyone that groups with them in the future. While those are MSQ dungeons, they've had 70 levels to learn to not be THAT bad.

That's not to say they need to be good; you need to learn to set a minimum threshold of what you'll tolerate. You're hurting them by getting them the clear on that dungeon.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

You need to learn to kick then, because you're not doing anyone favors by keeping them around. While those are MSQ dungeons, they've had 70 levels to learn to not be THAT bad.

That's not to say they need to be good, you need to learn to set a minimum threshold of what you'll tolerate. You're hurting them by helping them progress that deep into 70.

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Honestly I feel anyone leveling an Astrologian is suffering already ;)

They were a casual no company player. Simply wanting to see the story. I see no harm in it. My jimmies were not rustled helping them see said content.

Now, if it's a raid? Yes, I kick without mercy. When raiding in involved, I'm a dirty, cruel, heartless bish.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

Because it is a CHOICE to do that content, not a MUST.

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It was a must in order to be able to queue for heroic 5man dungeons in WoW.
Blizzard got plenty of FLAK for that too.

Maybe I’ve just set the bar low but I find that most of my parties aren’t that bad. DPS generally do what’s expected from them, though I’ll admit it’s very rare to find a DPS that will make an effort to use their full kit, particularly utility skills (even simple stuff like Minne / Samba / Tactician). I don’t generally find myself in dungeons with DPS that are refusing to AoE either; in general I find that DPS are fine at DPS, but rarely do anything above and beyond that.
In terms of tanks it’s hard to say because I mostly play Scholar. Since I’m both a healer and a Scholar, it’s pretty easy to cover for weaker tanks. So I’ve never really found myself in a situation where the tank is so bad that I don’t feel like I can compensate it, thought this is largely due to how powerful Scholar’s healing kit is.
Healers, I find, are always the most mixed bag. Mostly I’ll see healers playing at a standard/normal skill level, using healing GCD supplemented with oGCD rather and throwing damage in opportunistically rather than focusing on maximised uptime. But I’ll often see just as many healers that use Medica II / Succor / Aspected Helios then just stand around waiting for something to happen. Honestly, I’d rather have this guy than the Pure DPS Healer that rarely appears. I get that they want to do damage, but when four other players are dead (including the main tank) and I’m out of MP from raising them, I’d appreciate if they helped out lol (regardless of whether it was the dps’s fault).

One thing I can say is that PS4 players really need a straightforward means of measuring our performance. Currently people on PS4 are reliant on PC players to be able to see their own DPS, and we have no easy way of seeing just how the party we were in performed. I could be paired with a top tier player and a jump potion sprout, but unless someone else provides me with the information I really have no idea what the actual difference between them is (besides what I can see them doing). The developers have made DPS the most valuable thing in the game by design, but apart from getting a general sense from Stone, Sky, Sea, PS4 players have no real way to measure it

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. A bad player will forever be bad as long if they don't care about improving. If they do care then it's likely they will ask others or people online for help. There's honestly not much the developers can do.

Or you could teach them

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Originally Posted by Ardox

Or you could teach them

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This. No tutorial can teach as well as an active player. If they will not take advice then kick them.

Teach, then kick. Easiest and most effective solution. Just make sure you don't do any little quips, or whatever before you kick. Simply outline the encounter, give tips, and then see if they take it. If they don't. Kick without a word. Don't threaten to kick. Don't say something dumb like 'do x or get kicked'. Simply say something like 'to finish this we need x mechanic to be dealt with' or 'to avoid dying to that, try this'.

Good players will take the advice and hints, Better players will ask. Bad players will continue to fail over and over. Reason for this is they want to be carried. They're either ignorant and don't care, or more than likely they know what they need to do and cannot be bothered.

We have trusts. There's no better tutorial than those. And yet people still can't get pass those. Those players probably just simply can't be helped. That's an instance of players either 'getting it' or 'not getting it'.

The only way to 'help' those players is forcing them out of more content, aka, have another release version of Steps of Faith to force players to learn bare minimum or show them the door.

Also, any healer that claims that they don't need to dps needs to look at the conjurer quest line with the npc going 'But I just want to heal, why do I have to do anything else?'

"2) They are just really bad and do not care...." (Bolding added.)

As one of the people who fails mechanics regularly, I just wanted to address this assumption that I see being made throughout this thread.

Background: 19 years of MMO gaming, from EQ to EQ2 to Rift to GW2 to SW:TOR to TESO to here. No, I never played WoW.

So I have a bit of experience in gaming. One might suspect (rightly) that it's even something I enjoy - perhaps even care about? But, here's the thing - skill levels just differ. I didn't manage to live through an Omega 3 w/ that fricking 'larboard/starboard' mechanic until almost the end of the 4.x cycle. I had watched videos. I had people call out over Discord. Didn't matter - my reaction times simply _are not_ fast enough to handle the 'if you see yellow ground it's already too late' timings that SE seems to favor on current cycle mechanics (I remember going off the edge on Titan all the time during ARR; now I could sleep & still dodge that because they've clearly changed how long the warning is up before the effect triggers).

I try to limit my 'fail drain' on groups by not running too many times repeatedly - I realize that people may get frustrated when I drop after 3-4 attempts, but I think it's probably best for everyone as the group gets another person who's almost certainly more competent (also I often seem to 'get' mechanics better if I STOP beating myself against them for a few days before trying again). After 9 runs at TitaX this weekend, I've managed to make it to the add phase without dying... um... well, I'll let you know when that happens. I've at least made it into the forest phase w/o a death a couple of times, & for me that's progress.

I think the game itself does a decent job of distilling the skill levels through the system of varied difficulties. I've never entered a Savage & probably never will, so the content certainly exists for the hard-core gamers who don't want to get stuck w/ the low-skill people like me. It would be nice if we could continue to share the regular and (on occasion) extreme trails & such, though, without the assumptions that everyone who isn't 'as good' is just lazy or AFKing (as I was once accused of after a 3rd death to an AoE in Dun Scaith; I wish I'd thought of the proper retort at the time - 'Sir or Madam, you severely underestimate my capacity for ineptitude!').

I really don't think it's on the company or creator of the game to make sure you get better while playing. Their are so many variable involved in a player's skill level, it's hard to even begin to break down how to help "bad" players improve.

I think a player has to want to improve first of all. Some people just don't care enough to become a great player.

Hell, depending on when you do a dungeon with me would determine what you thought about my skill. I take the game seriously enough to practice rotations and try to improve skill level. But sometimes I get a bit overwhelmed by all that's going on on-screen, and I miss a button or make a mistake at an inopportune time. Sometimes I smoke weed before I play, and that really ruins my reaction time, but I try to not do dungeons on those days...

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Originally Posted by CazzT

You must be Gumby, stretching like that.
I'm not making a case for Healers to not DPS. Only someone looking for a fight would say this.
My reply was to someone who literally said that it's not the responsibility of DPS to avoid damage. If they're not going to do the bare minimum for their role, they can eat the floor.

And it's not a matter of whether I believe it's a requirement for Healers to DPS. It 100% is not a requirement. It is preferred. There is a difference. But you're eager for a fight and therefore you twist my words.

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I never said you were making a case for Healers to not dps. You're twisting my words. I am pointing out that your previous statement either contradicts the reasoning you were using in your statements prior to that one, or turns your overall argument into one saying that healers aren't actually responsible for anything.

You have been making the case that dps is not one of the requirements, that is to say responsibilities, of the Healer role. Yet in the comment of yours that I initially responded to, you take the stance that it's not the healer's responsibility to heal someone who takes avoidable damage, and that the person who took avoidable damage should just heal themselves. If a Healer should not be expected to be responsible for dps (as you've been saying) because it's not a requirement of the Healer role, then a non-healer should not be expected to be responsible for healing themselves either because that's not a requirement of non-healer roles. To tell a non-healer to heal themselves is equivalent to telling a non-dps (like a healer) to do dps. That is, to do something that is not a requirement of their role.

So in telling someone "heal yourself", you are undermining the reasoning of your previous statements. It makes even less sense when you consider the fact that every healer has dps tools, but not every dps has self-healing tools.

I know your reply was to someone who said it's not the responsibility for DPS to avoid damage. However, that person was saying that in response to what YOU had previously said, while applying YOUR reasoning about healer dps to dodging non-lethal damage. In essence, they're saying that if it's not required for Healers to dps b/c other people should be able to make up for it, then by that same logic it's not required for other people do avoid non-lethal damage because Healers should be able to make up for it.

You can make accusations and make assumptions about other people all you like, but the fact that your first post in this thread was you talking about expecting people to "REEEEE" over what you said make it pretty clear you're the one that came here for a fight. Any eagerness to fight you see in this discussion is coming from you, bud.

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Originally Posted by Machka

I never said you were making a case for Healers to not dps. You're twisting my words.

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You literally did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Machka

That statement is completely inane. You're the one trying to make the case that Healers don't need to dps because their job is to heal.

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I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your post.

This responses in this thread seem insanely condescending. Just because you post here basically saying over and over, that if the devs gave us more tools to learn mechanics that people wouldn't be able to learn anything more using said tools. You ppl complain that people are bad, and when someone suggests to add tools to learn the fights, you completely and with NO proof, say people aren't capable to learn in anyway with additional help. Just get over your selves seriously... But coming from these forums this kinda thing comes as no surprise here.

All i want them to do is to implement a giant half screen report with "USE YOUR AOE YOU DUNKY" written in it and being it shown to everyone who is not using their aoes when fighting multiple enemies at once. Only that and it will be golden.

I had too many dps, that were doing much less dps than me on my tank because they couldnt even care to use their skills properly, it is getting super annoying. Clearing dungeon with them takes longer than with trust npcs... I would rather have 2 additional healers in my team than 2 single targeting dps.

XD SE sells some lving potions what did you expect?

You can add millions of tuto or what you want but most of people won't read this or that cause they just don't care of others and play for themselves. Skills have already some descriptions, we have some tutorials, some mentors, people in FCs, videos on internet etc but it takes some efforts and most of those people are just lazy as hell.

You can try to teach them some fight mechanics, in most of cases you will get a "don't tell me how to play" or "fuck u" or your advices will be just ignored even if it's useful and you will still see dps who won't avoid aoes or won't use their LB, tanks who won't turn mobs from the party members or just keep hate on 1 mob but pull packs, healers who won't dps a bit even if all the party is full HP etc etc.

There are exceptions of course but it's really rare.

If it doesn't come from the player itself, it's not SE who will change this behaviour XD so just ignore those bad players, leave the party where they are, deal with it, BL them do what you want but don't ask to SE to change them it's not their job.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

You literally did.

I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your post.

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I literally did not, and the evidence is right in front of you in your own post. You are twisting my words. I never said you were making a case for Healers not to dps. I said you have been trying to make the case that Healers don't need to dps.

In your first post in this thread, you said the following:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CazzT

DPS is not a requirement of Healers.

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Is that doesn't mean the exact same thing as "Healers don't need to dps" then I'm not sure what to say.