Something about the new Ascian lore

Emet- Selch was fighting for his world, where our characters were fighting for our own. His words and condemnation of the fleeting existences he sees before him are not without some bias—-he is seeing his own world warped and twisted into something that in his eyes will suffer forever, never reaching the height of his people...

And to him, Ascians are made throuh being like him uplifting other shards of the souls of his former people into the original article. But unlike other Ascians he has fashioned together, we take that final step into becoming his equal in spite of his actions, representing a conclusion never would have considered seeing again.

In the end, he wanted his people back. His people, who were so...advanced they had their own fragilities with the first war, the first calamity, the first primal. Perhaps it was too much for someone to admit that, for all of the advancements of his society, summoning beings such as Zodiark and Hydaelyn was the moment their feats of creation magic had grown out of their control. It wouldn’t surprise me if said creation magic may have been the cause of the carnage that put their world in jeopardy, much like how in our world people still debate over man’s involvement in global warming.

If the theory that say the 14th member is the original holder of the soul of the WoL.
It could make sense that they have a similar persona.

And the conflict between the him/her and the other members of the Amarautine Council could be mirrored with the conflict between the WoL and some of his greatest ennemies that were manipulate by the Ascians.

The 13 members wanted Zodiark to be the supreme power able to resolve all their problem with his supreme might.
Gaius wanted to be the supreme leader able to resolve all Eorzea problems with his might and Ultima Arma, and it's mostly the same for Thordan VII being the supreme deity. Zenos is the only exception, probably because he is independant from the influences of the Ascian.

The irony is that to defeat the might of Gaius, Thordan VII... or Zodiark, it take the supreme might of the WoL... or Hydaelyn.
The difference is that the WoL inspire hope, along with their companions (everything about the WoL becoming a legend with unyielding spirit), where the others wanted to inspire fear.

If the Terminus is due (totally or partially) to the misuse of Creation Magic, fighting it back and giving hope to the others by doing it could have been a viable solution (where Amarautine people's where mostly apathetic in face of the Terminus).

Not entirely related to the main topic, but food for thought nonetheless:

They keep saying they gave existence to the will of the star - the will of their world - and that became Zodiark. But have they even thought that manifesting the will of a sick, dying star would most likely bring about a being that represents that state of life?

Zodiark is darkness, and for a while I thought he might not be the bad guy we all are led to believe. But the more I know about him, the more I notice the Ascians are only sided with it because they're tempered, as everything Terminus (meaning in this use "from the End of something in space and/or time") in Amaurot screamed "Zodiark" to me. That's what I believe they summoned, in the end: something attuned to the end of the world, willing to stop it in demand of greater and greater sacrifices. It's like appeasing a bloodthristy deity with gradual death, rather than the entire world at once.

My point is, in the end, did Zodiark really "save" the world from dying or was it all just his doing from the very first, halted for his own amusement? We can't really ask that the Ascians, considering they're eternally enthralled to it's will and their response will most likely be influenced by that.

It could be possible.
But during the last Dungeon, the voice who is not Emet-Selch talk about the "hubris" of Ancient People that mostly caused the Terminus. I don't see it being only caused by Zodiark or any other being.

honestly im seeing a lot of flashbacks to ffvii in SHB the end of the amaurotines reminds me a lot of the end of the ancients in gaia (ffvii worlds name). the ancients in ffvii ended up dieing off when jenova ended up crash landing on gaia in the form of a metor. the impact caused the world to scream in pain and the hatred exuding off of jenova cause the world to scream in fear. which caused the ancients to go insane. there are also a lot of things the ancients share with the amuarotines the ancients were able to use magic to make plants grow and bring life to others the amaurotines could use magic to create life. both of them also had a strong enough connection to the planet that they could hear the planets pain. which in the end lead to a calamity of their people in the ancients case because they were driven by the world to attack jenova which killed them off. and in the amaurotines case because the screams of the world drove them to fear which caused there magic to go berserk.

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Originally Posted by Elexander

My point is, in the end, did Zodiark really "save" the world from dying or was it all just his doing from the very first, halted for his own amusement? We can't really ask that the Ascians, considering they're eternally enthralled to it's will and their response will most likely be influenced by that.

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This would only work if Zodiark (As the will of the star) existed before Emet-Selch claimed they created him. What you are doing in the dungeon were steps leading up to Zodiark's creation, so they couldn't have been started by him because he didn't exist yet. From my understanding, Zodiark did exactly what they hoped. He was created, and stopped the Calamity. Now it's possible that there was a true will of the star before Zodiark (Terminus, maybe?) that was causing the Calamity, but there's nothing showing that is the case.

To put my thoughts into words, I think there's some pretty significant irony that a race that was so powerful and perfect, as Emet-Selch perpetually described it as, was still unable to forestall their own calamity, indeed may have even brought it upon themselves through misuse of their own creation magic. They sealed their own fates by trying to use that very magic to solve the problem, continuing their insistence to rely on it as they ended up creating two elder primals, which lead to a dramatic loss of life, a division among their people, and ultimately the Great Sundering that divided the world and the majority of its population into the several smaller shards we are familiar with in the present and their inhabitants. For all their bureaucracy and pragmatism, the people of Amaurot couldn't prevent all this from happening. Emet-Selch may have looked down upon the current people of the Source and shards, thinking them lesser, unworthy, and not even true life forms, yet it was the failure of his own people, and their own inherent flaws, that lead to the circumstances at hand.

Tragic though the Ascians' history may be, they cannot simply deny their own shortcomings that brought such tragedy upon them and expect that the people who came as a result of that will simply accept that they are truly inferior. When it comes down to it, it won't end up a matter of who's "right" and who's "wrong". It will become a matter of survival of the fittest who will inherit the future of the star. That said, I still can't condone the Ascians for what they've done to restore their world and people, but I can at least understand what drove them to such lengths.

I wonder if Zodiark as a concept or creation existed prior to the Calamity and that they used this as a basis for the Primal Zodiark?

Not sure where Akademia Anyder fits in the Amaurotine timeline, but it looks like the statues there were before things were getting out of hand.

https://i.imgur.com/dm5p2uul.jpg

On a side note, I saw a staff that vaguely looked Ramuh's. There's also Zodiark's "halo" in that area/ museum.

The thing that gets me is the Ascian image when the WoD/WoL combines with Ardbert. Maybe I'm alone in wondering about Hythlodaeus's involvement with this. He was the only being other than the Wod/WoL that could even see Ardbert. Not even Emet-Selch is ever implied to have noticed this. Now, granted, even he believes that he is a slip-up in Emet-Selch's recreation. When you fully recover from the light, Emet-Selch sees multiple people. He sees yourself, Ardbert, and another unnamed, robed figure. I can't help but wonder about the involvement of Hythlodaeus with the warrior of light.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Hydaelyn being willing to completely snuff the Ascians from the pages of history by refusing to reveal their motives and what happened to them is what seals the deal for me. She simply cannot be trusted. She's a Primal. A false deity. A parasite to be cut out so that the reins of history can be firmly placed into the hands of man for better or for worse.

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There is something fiercely ironic about using Vayne's quote here because in 12 itself, Vayne and Cid would have never had a chance in hell of putting history in mans hands without the help of Venat. One of those very gods who didnt agree with the others and worked against them to help mortals.

Which sounds quite similar to Hydaelyn's actions giving rise to worlds and mortals who fight against the Ascians.

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Originally Posted by myahele

I wonder if Zodiark as a concept or creation existed prior to the Calamity and that they used this as a basis for the Primal Zodiark?

Not sure where Akademia Anyder fits in the Amaurotine timeline, but it looks like the statues there were before things were getting out of hand.

https://i.imgur.com/dm5p2uul.jpg

On a side note, I saw a staff that vaguely looked Ramuh's. There's also Zodiark's "halo" in that area/ museum.

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From the dialogue in this dungeon and journals you find, it seems they are aware of the Calamity approaching but did not figure out what was the source of the Calamity thus they had already turned to using Summoning Zodiark as a solution since they are running out of time and no other solution has been found.

The final boss was basically the "testing" phase of the Summoning Magic that would later summon Zodiark.

Rather interesting how much this Optional Dungeon is related to the MSQ being the early stages of their Summoning Zodiark plans.

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Originally Posted by Sakei

The thing that gets me is the Ascian image when the WoD/WoL combines with Ardbert. Maybe I'm alone in wondering about Hythlodaeus's involvement with this. He was the only being other than the Wod/WoL that could even see Ardbert. Not even Emet-Selch is ever implied to have noticed this. Now, granted, even he believes that he is a slip-up in Emet-Selch's recreation. When you fully recover from the light, Emet-Selch sees multiple people. He sees yourself, Ardbert, and another unnamed, robed figure. I can't help but wonder about the involvement of Hythlodaeus with the warrior of light.

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I think that was just him seeing our old form. With Ardbert we gained another part of the original complete soul and maybe in that short time Emet was then able to see who we were once. (And its hinted that we were friends with him) He does not want to believe that thus he throws away the possibility that we are his old friend and fights us. But maybe after all was done he realized the truth thus why he says the words to us. I dont think that Hythlodaeus had anything to do with it. I just think that NPC was there to point out that we are a special soul, that Ardbert is part of our soul and that we might even be the 14th member.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I think that was just him seeing our old form. With Ardbert we gained another part of the original complete soul and maybe in that short time Emet was then able to see who we were once. (And its hinted that we were friends with him) He does not want to believe that thus he throws away the possibility that we are his old friend and fights us. But maybe after all was done he realized the truth thus why he says the words to us. I dont think that Hythlodaeus had anything to do with it. I just think that NPC was there to point out that we are a special soul, that Ardbert is part of our soul and that we might even be the 14th member.

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I agree with all of this! It might also be notable to point out that Emet-Selch doesn't consider sundered people to be human. So he feels absolutely no guilt in killing them. But if you were a real person, especially one that he was implied to know and be friends with, suddenly he's actually killing someone. It's implied he saw a shade of the original Amaroutine soul due to the soul combination, which horrified him. However, for a man hardened by so much hardship and loneliness, he was able to push down those feelings and keep fighting.

That being said, I think ti's probably fair to say our character is more of a reincarnation of some Amaroutine (presumably the 14th counsel member due to conservation of detail.) As far as we understand our characters still have their own will and personality.

On some level I couldn't help but wonder how the Ancients of Amaurot would feel about the state of the Star today. Most of the phantoms you interact with seem interested (almost obsessed) with new creations and such. Diversity. Their only real hang-up was anything that might be dangerous or, ultimately, detrimental. With all that in mind, if the Ancients could see the Reflections and the Source and the myriad different cultures and architectures and lifeforms, I can't help but think they'd be ecstatic.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Which in my mind puts the plan to restore the world by sacrificing more Ancients to Zoidark and the plant to free the Ancient souls sacrificed to Zodiark by sacrificing more future souls to Zodiark in a very different light. All primals need aether. All primals want aether. The goal of people who have been tempered is to keep their primal supplied with aether.

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That is the case with current primals...but isn't it suggested that this is a result of the relative lack of aether from the summoners of the shards/source when engaging in what turns out to be creation magic? The Ancients seem to have been capable of creating entities fully, with more powerful ones requiring more aether to complete...

But the constant need to feed on aether that we see in our primals seems to be a result of what is essentially an incomplete "concept" that is brought into creation. We don't have the innate aether needed to summon a creation the way they could (otherwise even their robes would be sucking aether from the land), and as such the creation (primal) is simply trying to complete the process using the aether it can find elsewhere...which is something the Ascians know and count on as part of their plans.

Zodiark and Hydaelyn also don't seem to be described as needing to continue to feed, but rather to need energy for specific purposes - summoning, fixing the world, etc.

So while it is entirely possible that Zodiark wouldn't return the souls in exchange for an equivalent amount of aether and simply enjoy the new meal, I'm not sure we can say that either work the same way as our primals, seeing as how the current use of the creation magics that are now known as primal summoning have some very specific shortcomings compared to the techniques employed by the Ancients.

I think to fully understand how Zodiark and Hydaelyn act and behave, we need to consider by whom and in which situation they were created.

We need to keep in mind, that primals are and do, what they were summoned for. Ramuh wanted to protect the forest, because he was summoned in the belief, that he is the warden of it. Leviathan wanted to cause floodwaves and sink ships, because that was it, what the sahagin thought he would (and should) do.

The monsters we fought in Aumarot were not an invasion of aliens or a long forgotten threat that somehow broke free. They were the manifastion of the Aumarotans fears, despairs and hopelessness, they experienced when their world was about to die.
Probably the same emotions they summoned Zodiark with. Zodiark was summoned by the council as the will of the planet, to stop an apocalypse. This alone already did cost half of the civilisations lifeforce. He needed another fourth of it to heal the planets wounds. Zodiarks only purpose was to redo the world into her state, before the apokalypse. He was summoned to be an allmighty god, leading an eternal civilisation of immortals.


There were some hints in the sidequests and dialogues with the Aumarotans, that a few of them had the idea, that an endless recreation of something that's already considered as perfect, will only lead to repeatness and stagnation, instead of giving birth to new and creative things. I think that it was this Idea, that gave some of them (possibly including the leaved 14th member of the council) the will to summon Hydaelyn.
That's why I think Hydaelyn isn't evil. She just can't. She wasn't summoned to do anything evil. While Zodiark was summoned by fear and despair, Hydaelyn was summoned by hope. She wasn't summoned to be a goddess or a leader. She was summoned to give the world, the people, the "imperfect" a chance to evolve, to eventually, even surpass the "perfect", maybe even surpass herself someday. Something Zodiark never would have allowed to happen.

Indeed, the way Emet-Selch phrased it, Zodiark's actions were all in response to requests made by the Ancients. Even tempered, it was the summoners who directed Zodiark's major actions and sacrificed to Him to enable them. Beyond the needed sacrifices of lives/aether to accomplish His tasks, all we know Zodiark asked of the Ancients in return is their loyalty in ensuring His rule. Primals in general are not duplicitous, in fact they tend to be rather direct in trying to carry out the purpose for which they were created (Alexander trying to engineer his own destruction is the only example I can think of which might strain this paradigm). As conceptual entities, this actually makes a lot of sense.

I would be very disappointed if the story goes straight out "Zodiark 100% bad." I prefer the concept of an entity that will sincerely save the world and grant wishes, but at STEEP sacrifice.

Also, Zodiark likely expended much of the sacrificed aether in restoring the planet. Even with a favorable concept matchup of "weakens Zodiark" and probably the support of all non-Amaroutine people pre-sundering, I don't think Hydaelyn would have been able to successfully oppose Zodiark if He had 75% of the Amaroutine population's aether and She had a fraction of 25%.

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

I think to fully understand how Zodiark and Hydaelyn act and behave, we need to consider by whom and in which situation they were created.

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That's why I think Hydaelyn isn't evil. She just can't. She wasn't summoned to do anything evil. While Zodiark was summoned by fear and despair, Hydaelyn was summoned by hope. She wasn't summoned to be a goddess or a leader. She was summoned to give the world, the people, the "imperfect" a chance to evolve, to eventually, even surpass the "perfect", maybe even surpass herself someday. Something Zodiark never would have allowed to happen.

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A good point, though I think Zodiark, too, was summoned in part by hope. He WAS, in many ways, the hope of the Amaroutine people.

Rather, I think the core conceptual difference is something closer to this:

Zodiark: We will survive and prevail, by ANY means necessary.

Hydaelyn: We should treasure tomorrow over today or yesterday, even if this means stepping down or fading away.

This plays into the overall themes of Shadowbringers very well. Not sacrificing what we have now (Ryne) for what we once had (Minfillia). Letting the world move forward, rather than trying to keep it the way it is (Vauthry) or going back to the past (the Ascians). That there's a difference between giving up and letting go.

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

That's why I think Hydaelyn isn't evil. She just can't. She wasn't summoned to do anything evil.

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But she is, splitting (more like destroying since they lose everything that made their existence like appearance, memories, etc) every life forms (except for 3) into 14 isn't doing good.
People are quick to tell that the Ascians are killing billions with each Rejoining, Hydaelyn was the very first to do it with the Shattering. (No the first and second sacrifices to Zodiark don't count as killing since the people gave their lives willingly)

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

That being said, I think ti's probably fair to say our character is more of a reincarnation of some Amaroutine (presumably the 14th counsel member due to conservation of detail.) As far as we understand our characters still have their own will and personality.

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Oh of course we still have our own will and personality. We are not truly the 14th member right now and maybe we wont ever be it. (Wrote it a bit bad there sry) But I do find it interesting that if we are the reincarnation of that person that we still hold fast to the same principles. Seemingly the 14th left because they did not agree with the plan, maybe just like us they might have even had one that did not need sacrifice. Maybe it would have united the people and give them hope thus stoping the creation of these monsters out of their fear. The 14th also might have had their hands in creating Hydaelyn but even if they did not, he/she might have been an inspiration for those that did.

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Originally Posted by Tharne

But she is, splitting (more like destroying since they lose everything that made their existence like appearance, memories, etc) every life forms (except for 3) into 14 isn't doing good.
People are quick to tell that the Ascians are killing billions with each Rejoining, Hydaelyn was the very first to do it with the Shattering. (No the first and second sacrifices to Zodiark don't count as killing since the people gave their lives willingly)

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But as the quests told us, she was summoned with that power. Why would people summon someone with that, if it was not intended to be that way? Maybe they knew that they cant defeat Zodiark like that thus let Hydealyn split him up. And maybe those ancients ones saw that they have created the worst of the calamity thanks to their use of creation magic, a magic that can take on another form just by being not 100% concentrated when doing it..And they knew that this might happen again and at the same time did not want future people to suffer for this. Thus they saw the decrease of the power as the only way to stop all of this. (And would have succeeded if three Ascians did not somehow escape all of that) We do not know if Hydaelyn shattering the world truly killed everyone. How would life even start again if that was the case?

The problem I have with Emet-Selche's logic is that he seems to think that if they got everyone back they would not just cause a repeat of the calamity that caused them to sacrifice to summon Zodiark. He also kept going on about how he did not want the tragedy of their people to repeat.

Based on what little is said on their creation magic they basically made something out of nothing whenever they used it. They warped the very rules of reality and messed with the foundation of the laws that govern it. That is going to cause lasting damage to reality and while reality can mend itself to some degree when millions or maybe billions of people are doing this constantly every single day all those fractures and breaks are going to build up. To the point where all it would take is a big enough hit and everything falls apart. Leading to the kind of calamity we saw shown to us.

If this was realized, and this was identified as the true cause of the calamity after Zodiark was summoned to mass repair reality... then the summoning of Hydaelyn would be to prevent the tragedy from being repeated. Better that no one have access to the power to warp reality and cause it to come crashing down then it is to endlessly repeat the tragedy. As once everyone was brought back that were offered to Zodiark they would get right back to using their creation magic constantly. Perhaps even to find new ways to get Zodiark the aether he desires.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

But as the quests told us, she was summoned with that power. Why would people summon someone with that, if it was not intended to be that way? Maybe they knew that they cant defeat Zodiark like that thus let Hydealyn split him up. And maybe those ancients ones saw that they have created the worst of the calamity thanks to their use of creation magic, a magic that can take on another form just by being not 100% concentrated when doing it..And they knew that this might happen again and at the same time did not want future people to suffer for this. Thus they saw the decrease of the power as the only way to stop all of this. (And would have succeeded if three Ascians did not somehow escape all of that) We do not know if Hydaelyn shattering the world truly killed everyone. How would life even start again if that was the case?

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Zodiark being created with the power to create is somehow evil when he does the thing he's suppose to do BUT Hydaelyn being created with the power to fracture is somehow good when she does the thing she's suppose to do. Okay...
If I take you and fracture you into 14 with every one of those being only a fraction of the Original you, you're not you anymore hence you died.
You can't say that fracturing people into 14 isn't killing and then say that rejoining those people is. That's completely a double standard.

It was a bit unclear if Emet Selch and Ascians actually knew the cause of their calamity or not. Creation magic going into a vicious cycle seems to be PART of it, but I felt like they never quite got to admitting that maybe they started it to begin with.

Which leads to the fear that it could happen again, and the justification that only their civilization had the moral fiber to sacrifice what is needed to stop it.

Deeply flawed, obviously, on many levels, among them the Ascians perpetrating their tragedy unto 8 other worlds thus far, bonus change for the calamities on the Source and the near thing on the First.

In the end, it's likely a combination of hubris, grief, sunk cost fallacy, and maybe tempering.

"Good" and "evil" are probably the wrong terms to describe Zodiark and Hydaelyn, because they are too relative.

Like I said, I think that Zodiark was created with the purpose of bringing the world into its old state and, as an allmighty ruler, keep it like this forever.
So that was what he started to do. Ruling and stagnating the world. And probably the best way of doing so, was by tempering the people. This is totally fine, if you are on the "everything should for ever be as it was!" fraction. But for people who thought different and then just got tempered, this doesn't sound very nice.

Hydaelyn probably could temper us all and rule over the world too, but she doesn't, because it's not her purpose she was summoned with. She wasn't summoned to be a ruling goddess, because swaping one allmighty god that rules you, with another one, didn't make sense. She was summoned to "free" the world from Zodiarks reign and give people the chance of going their own paths again.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Rather, I think the core conceptual difference is something closer to this:

Zodiark: We will survive and prevail, by ANY means necessary.

Hydaelyn: We should treasure tomorrow over today or yesterday, even if this means stepping down or fading away.

This plays into the overall themes of Shadowbringers very well. Not sacrificing what we have now (Ryne) for what we once had (Minfillia). Letting the world move forward, rather than trying to keep it the way it is (Vauthry) or going back to the past (the Ascians). That there's a difference between giving up and letting go.

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Good point, I didn't even recognize that. ^^"

All in all, Hydaelyn vs. Zodiark, us vs. the Ascians, is less "good" vs "evil". It's more like "one way" vs. "another other way". "Looking forward" vs. "Looking backwards"

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Oh of course we still have our own will and personality. We are not truly the 14th member right now and maybe we wont ever be it. (Wrote it a bit bad there sry) But I do find it interesting that if we are the reincarnation of that person that we still hold fast to the same principles. Seemingly the 14th left because they did not agree with the plan, maybe just like us they might have even had one that did not need sacrifice. Maybe it would have united the people and give them hope thus stoping the creation of these monsters out of their fear. The 14th also might have had their hands in creating Hydaelyn but even if they did not, he/she might have been an inspiration for those that did.

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I think this is pretty clear if you take in account what Seto and the one Aumarotan said. Seto stated, that our and Adberts souls are very much alike. Yet we are different persons, due to it's not the soul alone that defines one person. It's their memories, their experiences and their feelings that do. The soul is just something like a core, everything else is build around. And the one Aumarotan stated, that our souls are clearly the shards of one person he used to know.
So our and Arberts (and probably the souls of a lot of heroes over the shards and ages) are part of the souls of one Aumarotan, probably the 14th council member Emet-Selch saw in us for a brief Moment.

I think this is are also the reasons a lot of people (me included) started to feel for the Ascians, especially for Emet-Selch, especially in his last moment when he asks us to at least "remember that they were here" to "look at those who walked before" and that in a world where things would've turned out different, we could've been friends. Because probably...we were...

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

The problem I have with Emet-Selche's logic is that he seems to think that if they got everyone back they would not just cause a repeat of the calamity that caused them to sacrifice to summon Zodiark. He also kept going on about how he did not want the tragedy of their people to repeat.

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Also seemingly he only wants those back that sacrificed themselves to Zodiark but even more people lived on the planet at that time..or what about the ancient ones that survived it all, or even those that died with the calamity? Is SE trying to tell us that at the end only those 13 Ascian remained and those that summoned Hydaelyn? Because if that is the case then the solution with Zodiark was really bad anyway..if that is not the case why are those other Ancient ones not as important as those that sacrificed themselves? Because seemingly even if all had their whole soul back after all the rejoining (and I wonder if its even possible to fully awake Zodiark without the 13th shard or if its even possible to have a complete soul again) they would be sacrificed too to get the other ones back..so does he only care about his direct friends and family and not really their race itself?

And I fully agree with your point. What will stop them from doing the same thing again? Does Zodiark restrict them in that? But would the rest of the Ancient ones even want to live in a place that has such restrictions? Would they be fine with the destruction the Ascians had done? I mean there already were those that summoned Hydealyn..why does he believe that everything would be great and happy again...heck maybe thanks to all the calamities they need to cause to do the rejoining, the planet could be death too..and thus they would again need to sacrifice people to heal it..

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Originally Posted by Tharne

Zodiark being created with the power to create is somehow evil when he does the thing he's suppose to do BUT Hydaelyn being created with the power to fracture is somehow good when she does the thing she's suppose to do. Okay...
If I take you and fracture you into 14 with every one of those being only a fraction of the Original you, you're not you anymore hence you died.
You can't say that fracturing people into 14 isn't killing and then say that rejoining those people is. That's completely a double standard.

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Yes because endlessly being able to create something is not that good. We are told that just a slight moment of loss of concentration can lead to drastic changes in their creation. Heck Emet himself somehow gave one Amaurotine a sense of self. The creatures that spawned around them were created out of their fear. They heared a sound coming from the earth and then began to panic. How big is the chance that something like that would happen again? At least some of the remaining Amaurotines tought that it would be better to create a being that will split everything thus making it weaker than continuing with this needless sacrifice. We simply dont know if fracturing people kills them but we do know that rejoining does. Until we have the information that both is deathly we can only speculate on it.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

They heared a sound coming from the earth and then began to panic. How big is the chance that something like that would happen again? At least some of the remaining Amaurotines tought that it would be better to create a being that will split everything thus making it weaker than continuing with this needless sacrifice. We simply dont know if fracturing people kills them but we do know that rejoining does. Until we have the information that both is deathly we can only speculate on it.

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It was said that the sound was "distorting all living things within earshot and also wrested control of their creation magicks". They weren't in control anymore. The chance of something like that happening again ? We can't really know for sure since we don't even know what was the source of this sound, but wasn't it stopped by the summoning of Zodiark ? Then he probably acts as a fail safe against that, even then they probably would have try to take measure to avoid such a thing to happen again.
I don't see any needless sacrifice with what they were going to do.
Emet explains that if Hydaelyn strikes you, it creates a clone in appearance but everything else is halved, are you still you then ? No, you are not, the Real Original You is no more, I equate that to killing yes.

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Originally Posted by Tharne

It was said that the sound was "distorting all living things within earshot and also wrested control of their creation magicks". They weren't in control anymore. The chance of something like that happening again ? We can't really know for sure since we don't even know what was the source of this sound, but wasn't it stopped by the summoning of Zodiark ? Then he probably acts as a fail safe against that, even then they probably would have try to take measure to avoid such a thing to happen again.
I don't see any needless sacrifice with what they were going to do.
Emet explains that if Hydaelyn strikes you, it creates a clone in appearance but everything else is halved, are you still you then ? No, you are not, the Real Original You is no more, I equate that to killing yes.

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Except there was nothing to stop the original cause of the calamity from happening again. The very foundations of reality was breaking down, and that is not a natural occurrence unless something was damaging reality all this time. Which there was only one possible cause in that regard: The very creation magics they relied on and constantly used every day of their life by potentially billions of people.

Which would mean that while Zodiark used the vast amounts of creation magic he was summoned with to repair reality, if they continued to have him use creation magic on that scale then the calamity would repeat itself in short order. Faster with all the people brought back using their creation magic all the time as they tried to rebuild their lives. Leading to them again having to sacrifice half their population to repair the reality they were actively accidentally destroying ad creating a cycle of sacrifice until their souls were so degraded that it makes Hydaelyn splitting everyone the far more merciful and future granting method.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Except there was nothing to stop the original cause of the calamity from happening again. The very foundations of reality was breaking down, and that is not a natural occurrence unless something was damaging reality all this time. Which there was only one possible cause in that regard: The very creation magics they relied on and constantly used every day of their life by potentially billions of people.

Which would mean that while Zodiark used the vast amounts of creation magic he was summoned with to repair reality, if they continued to have him use creation magic on that scale then the calamity would repeat itself in short order. Faster with all the people brought back using their creation magic all the time as they tried to rebuild their lives. Leading to them again having to sacrifice half their population to repair the reality they were actively accidentally destroying ad creating a cycle of sacrifice until their souls were so degraded that it makes Hydaelyn splitting everyone the far more merciful and future granting method.

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That's a complete speculation on a lot of people's part that their use of creation magic caused the sound. We have no proof of that.

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Originally Posted by Tharne

That's a complete speculation on a lot of people's part that their use of creation magic caused the sound. We have no proof of that.

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Aside from the fact that when they are using their creation magic even the slightest lapse in concentration leads to a completely different result. If they were trying to use their creation magic to solve an issue caused by someone else's mistake in concentration then what should have been a fix for what should of been a playful toy for children becomes a monstrosity that inspires fear leading to the creation magic of those trying to contain it creating more monsters as the fear breaks their concentration and their fear is manifested instead of the containment they intended.

Its very easy for a cascade effect to be started with such easy to use unchecked unlimited creation capabilities. If the creation magic itself is also damaging reality due to how it works then the cascading problem becomes worse. Not to mention that rumormongering causing fear could lead to what should of been a isolated problem in some far off city state becoming real right outside your door from errant thoughts cropping up during the regular use of creation magic.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Aside from the fact that when they are using their creation magic even the slightest lapse in concentration leads to a completely different result. If they were trying to use their creation magic to solve an issue caused by someone else's mistake in concentration then what should have been a fix for what should of been a playful toy for children becomes a monstrosity that inspires fear leading to the creation magic of those trying to contain it creating more monsters as the fear breaks their concentration and their fear is manifested instead of the containment they intended.

Its very easy for a cascade effect to be started with such easy to use unchecked unlimited creation capabilities. If the creation magic itself is also damaging reality due to how it works then the cascading problem becomes worse. Not to mention that rumormongering causing fear could lead to what should of been a isolated problem in some far off city state becoming real right outside your door from errant thoughts cropping up during the regular use of creation magic.

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They are born with the ability to use creation magick, they chose when to create something, you don't lose control of your legs all of a sudden and I'm pretty sure they had experience with children learning to use those powers and weird stuff happening from time to time, it's not like they're new at this.
And also if they are born with it, what kind of a sick joke is it if they can't use something natural to them ? 'Sorry fam, you're breathing to much, I have decided to cause a Calamity.' - The Planet. (Y'shtola even said that because they have a huge amount of aether their creation magick doesn't affect the aether from the land)
The Sound was affecting creatures already alive and transforming them, that's not their creation magick's doing, and it wrested control of their abitily to use their magick, they weren't in command anymore.

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Originally Posted by Tharne

They are born with the ability to use creation magick, they chose when to create something, you don't lose control of your legs all of a sudden and I'm pretty sure they had experience with children learning to use those powers and weird stuff happening from time to time, it's not like they're new at this.
And also if they are born with it, what kind of a sick joke is it if they can't use something natural to them ? 'Sorry fam, you're breathing to much, I have decided to cause a Calamity.' - The Planet. (Y'shtola even said that because they have a huge amount of aether their creation magick doesn't affect the aether from the land)
The Sound was affecting creatures already alive and transforming them, that's not their creation magick's doing, and it wrested control of their abitily to use their magick, they weren't in command anymore.

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During the sidequest about their views on nonconformity, the one you're first sent to talk to mentions that even the slightest distraction during the creation process can alter the results. They were creating robes, they noticed a group of children running by, and as a result they got a bunch of child-sized robes that they had to desynthesize. If an attempt at a large-scale concept went wrong and created a cacophony from underground, any ongoing creation within the entire city could be radically altered by fear, and that fear could spread like a pandemic.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

During the sidequest about their views on nonconformity, the one you're first sent to talk to mentions that even the slightest distraction during the creation process can alter the results. They were creating robes, they noticed a group of children running by, and as a result they got a bunch of child-sized robes that they had to desynthesize. If an attempt at a large-scale concept went wrong and created a cacophony from underground, any ongoing creation within the entire city could be radically altered by fear, and that fear could spread like a pandemic.

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Their magick is creation not alteration that's why that dude can't just change the clothes he just failed to create the way he saw it. The living creatures were also affected and being distorted. Their magic can't do that, ergo it was something else.

You all just seemed to want to pin the blame on them for I don't know what reason. ("The Ascians are the bad guys, of course the downfall of their civilization was of their own doing.")

The only wrong people I see in this story are the one that decided to summon Hydaelyn.
(And no, I don't think we are one of them. We are the 14th, but the same way we didn't want to summon Zodiark, we probably didn't want to summon Hydaelyn.)

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Originally Posted by Tharne

Their magick is creation not alteration that's why that dude can't just change the clothes he just failed to create the way he saw it. The living creatures were also affected and being distorted. Their magic can't do that, ergo it was something else.

You all just seemed to want to pin the blame on them for I don't know what reason. ("The Ascians are the bad guys, of course the downfall of their civilization was of their own doing.")

The only wrong people I see in this story are the one that decided to summon Hydaelyn.
(And no, I don't think we are one of them. We are the 14th, but the same way we didn't want to summon Zodiark, we probably didn't want to summon Hydaelyn.)

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But the same sidequest also had the clerk transmute a living creature into a crystal which we were then supposed to use creation magic on to create a robe. Between that, all the other information in the city, and the fact that the last area of the dungeon is named something to the effect of "but in the end, it was our sins that doomed us", yes I'm willing to say that the Ancients(not just those that would survive the Sundering and become Ascians) caused it.

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Originally Posted by Tharne

Their magick is creation not alteration that's why that dude can't just change the clothes he just failed to create the way he saw it. The living creatures were also affected and being distorted. Their magic can't do that, ergo it was something else.

You all just seemed to want to pin the blame on them for I don't know what reason. ("The Ascians are the bad guys, of course the downfall of their civilization was of their own doing.")

The only wrong people I see in this story are the one that decided to summon Hydaelyn.
(And no, I don't think we are one of them. We are the 14th, but the same way we didn't want to summon Zodiark, we probably didn't want to summon Hydaelyn.)

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They did have alteration as part of their abilities, was part of the very same quest as the one you were told that even the slightest distractions or errant thought alters the results. In case you forgot we literally put a living creature in a bag and handed it to the guy who was to give us the robe concept who promptly turned it into a crystal with the robes concept included for you to make your robes.

Which outright debunks your assertion they did not have alteration.

The Ascians are the bad guys because they are going against the very wishes of their own people who wanted to keep moving forward instead of stagnating and sticking to the past. This point of view was actively shown in side quests. The very same kind of people who probably summoned Hydaelyn because others wanted to use Zodiark to shackle everyone to being obedient tempered drones of Zodiark and to the past, instead of trying to look to the future in a post calamity world.

Really quick. I just wanted to say thank you for the well thought out and detailed posts in this thread. These are the kinds of in-depth discussions I love to participate it. Way better than what's over on Reddit.

Back on-topic. Based on my own experience completing the MSQ two things became apparent to me: 1) the Warrior of Light is an Ancient, likely the 14th member of the Convocation, was likely female and was someone very important to Emet-Selch and Amaurot society in general. And 2) Hydaelyn, along with Zodiark, has to go.

If Zodiark is ever dealt with permanently, then hard on the heels of his ultimate death must her death come as well. It will be very interesting to see how this all plays out over the years. To say the least.

Sorry. But It has been mentioned that the gender changes based in the one you choose. So if you are male, so is the reference to said Ancient and aame with female

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Sorry. But It has been mentioned that the gender changes based in the one you choose. So if you are male, so is the reference to said Ancient and aame with female

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Ah, did not know that. Haven't played through as a male character yet. That'll be my next playthrough.

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Originally Posted by Tharne

It was said that the sound was "distorting all living things within earshot and also wrested control of their creation magicks". They weren't in control anymore. The chance of something like that happening again ? We can't really know for sure since we don't even know what was the source of this sound, but wasn't it stopped by the summoning of Zodiark ? Then he probably acts as a fail safe against that, even then they probably would have try to take measure to avoid such a thing to happen again.
I don't see any needless sacrifice with what they were going to do.
Emet explains that if Hydaelyn strikes you, it creates a clone in appearance but everything else is halved, are you still you then ? No, you are not, the Real Original You is no more, I equate that to killing yes.

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But if these really powerful beings lost their control thanks to that sound and then got overrun by their fears which created even more monsters then (as TankHunter points out) how would they make sure that this wont happen again? Maybe it was a sign for some that this magic was better not left unchecked.

I do believe that the ability to split things apart in their essence was given to her through the summoners, because its those that mold the primal. And seemingly those that did summon her to protect the future of the new life did this with great consideration and probably believed that this was the only way to save the new life.

The thing is that people might have lost their memories when they were split (because as Seto said, its actions and your memories that define who we are) and one could see it as death but if they had not done it, these people would have truly been death and part of Zodiark too. This way they at least have the chance to start new again and create new memories too. Its not the optimal solution but at least one that had a future left.

Of course one could say that Zodiark is also not truly evil in the moral sense since he also was just created but his actions or how he does things (which might be the fault of his summoners) are not good. Thus he needs to be asleep or put down if awake. Hydealyn on the other side has not shown any of such side effects right now and is seemingly quite fine to leave our lifes to us if no Ascians are there to mess things up. So her actions are good, at least to us.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

During the sidequest about their views on nonconformity, the one you're first sent to talk to mentions that even the slightest distraction during the creation process can alter the results. They were creating robes, they noticed a group of children running by, and as a result they got a bunch of child-sized robes that they had to desynthesize. If an attempt at a large-scale concept went wrong and created a cacophony from underground, any ongoing creation within the entire city could be radically altered by fear, and that fear could spread like a pandemic.

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And in the same quest the NPC even states that she was going to create a white lion and just an eagle flying by was enough to break that concentration and created something quite new. Heck even Emet seems to have somehow given that one shade his own mind without wanting too and that shade says it could have simply happend with Emet thinking stuff like: He would see through this. Its seemingl so easy to lose controll of it. And as the quest with the robe also taught us, its seemingly not that surprising to have people with different mastery of this. We have those at the highest seats, who are the wisest and best in their deparment, so it would not be surprising that some could be worse at that and seemingly let things spiral out of control.

We do blame them for it because the story gives us hints that they are part of the reason for their own downfall. Its 100% a fact that it was made at least worse thanks to their fears. Its also quite shown that Amaurot sat on their butts until it was on their own doorstep. This is just shown to tell us that no this race was far from perfect and that Emet has no rights to look down on us. We would have not been if they had not messed up in at least some parts. And Hydealyn would not have needed to be summoned if they had accepted the sacrifice of their people and moved on...it only became a direct problem when they wanted to sacrifice the future and its people to try to bring back the past. Not sure how that would make them right, because the future generation was still ancient ones with complete souls. So they were ready to kill their own kin to get others back.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Really quick. I just wanted to say thank you for the well thought out and detailed posts in this thread. These are the kinds of in-depth discussions I love to participate it. Way better than what's over on Reddit.

Back on-topic. Based on my own experience completing the MSQ two things became apparent to me: 1) the Warrior of Light is an Ancient, likely the 14th member of the Convocation, was likely female and was someone very important to Emet-Selch and Amaurot society in general. And 2) Hydaelyn, along with Zodiark, has to go.

If Zodiark is ever dealt with permanently, then hard on the heels of his ultimate death must her death come as well. It will be very interesting to see how this all plays out over the years. To say the least.

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It is also a possibility that both will be killed but I honestly dont believe that she HAS to die. We do learn that they are not existing at the same time thus the death of one should probably not mess anything up because Zodiark was quite fine when alone. Of course one could argue (and maybe that will be the reason) that she is a primal and thus needs to die but the only reason why we even kill them is because they take massive amount of aether from the world. Hydealyn has been "living" for such a long time but the only true damage to the planet is done thanks to the Ascians. If she does need constant aether like the normal primals do then shouldnt the source be death by now? I also doubt that the ones that summoned her would do the same mistake and let her need souls as food to continue on. Other than sending out WoLs to fight against Ascians at the times of calamities, she seemingly does not interact with the mortals that much. Why would we then need to kill her?

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Originally Posted by Tharne

Their magick is creation not alteration that's why that dude can't just change the clothes he just failed to create the way he saw it. The living creatures were also affected and being distorted. Their magic can't do that, ergo it was something else.

You all just seemed to want to pin the blame on them for I don't know what reason. ("The Ascians are the bad guys, of course the downfall of their civilization was of their own doing.")

The only wrong people I see in this story are the one that decided to summon Hydaelyn.
(And no, I don't think we are one of them. We are the 14th, but the same way we didn't want to summon Zodiark, we probably didn't want to summon Hydaelyn.)

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Emet-selch also mentions that they were creating their own destruction, though. As things started to get really bad, and is portrayed in the final dungeon, he mentions that their fears started to create the monstrosities he was attacking us with. Their own fears led to more monsters being created. Hydaelyn being summoned is really the only way to stop the followers of Zodiark. They sacrificed half their numbers, then half more, then wanted to sacrifice more in order to return some that had been sacrificed before. They were already gone. At what point do you start to let go of the past? Hydaelyn was the only option to prevent a possibly never-ending wave of death.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I think that was just him seeing our old form. With Ardbert we gained another part of the original complete soul and maybe in that short time Emet was then able to see who we were once. (And its hinted that we were friends with him) He does not want to believe that thus he throws away the possibility that we are his old friend and fights us. But maybe after all was done he realized the truth thus why he says the words to us. I dont think that Hythlodaeus had anything to do with it. I just think that NPC was there to point out that we are a special soul, that Ardbert is part of our soul and that we might even be the 14th member.

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I take the encounter to mean the opposite. Emet-Selch was friends with Hythlodaeus. He mentions this at the start of the conversation. I don't believe that Emet-Selch was friends with the WoL/WoD. I think he finally recognizes who we really are only after joining with Ardbert. I am thinking that the Hythlodaeus shade could recognize the warrior of light/Darkness even though it was only faintly because he was good friends with the WoL/WoD. He does say goodbye addressing you as his new, old friend. I think that Hythlodaeus was a mutual friend of Emet-Selch and the WoL/WoD. He had a stray thought in his creation magic remembering his old friend that had more of the real Hythlodaeus shine through than Emet-Selch ever intended.

Hydaelyn’s sole purpose in summoning was to counter Zodiark and be a check on His power. If Zodiark were to completely perish, putting aside any ill effects that would happen from His demise, Hydaelyn would have no further purpose to Her continued presence.