Shadowbringers Monk is grueling and torturous in Dungeons - A regression to 2.0 monk

I need to say this again there are lots of wrong Info being spread about anatman. It does max stacks from 0 in combat and it does max time to 16 if u have 4 stacks already. Note all this is in combat. I have been using this skill a lot and i do like it and it works well. SSS on the other hand should be ogcd.

Well good it works from 0, still it shouldn't be a 78 skill. Should be 30 or at most 50 as it's tied to a big part of Mnk combat sustain. SSS should either be oGCD, or have better incentive to use it. Like Guaranteed crit and makes the next attack, regardless of what it is crit. Then change TK to do potency damage based off stacks. Like, used at 1 stack? 100 potency 2 200 ect. This would allow combos again of decent timing.

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Originally Posted by silverdragontyr

Well good it works from 0, still it shouldn't be a 78 skill. Should be 30 or at most 50 as it's tied to a big part of Mnk combat sustain. SSS should either be oGCD, or have better incentive to use it. Like Guaranteed crit and makes the next attack, regardless of what it is crit. Then change TK to do potency damage based off stacks. Like, used at 1 stack? 100 potency 2 200 ect. This would allow combos again of decent timing.

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SSS is meant to be used during any instance where mechanics move you away from the boss for a few secs. Unfortnately being on gcd makes it clunky as you cant just hit it, do mechanic then head back to boss. What would be cool is make it so that if used the next shoulder tackle crits, or gets a buff of some sort allowing for some synergy. I dunno. I do not think things are that bad but it could be better. Giving us a way to regain stacks of gl faster would be cool. Even some way to freeze stacks while running. A simple buff to TK making anatman work while moving would do wonders in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Takiwaki

I need to say this again there are lots of wrong Info being spread about anatman. It does max stacks from 0 in combat and it does max time to 16 if u have 4 stacks already. Note all this is in combat. I have been using this skill a lot and i do like it and it works well. SSS on the other hand should be ogcd.

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You're half right. It does grant stacks form 0 while in combat, however if you're already at max stacks it does not refresh the gl timer to 16.

Also just a heads up, Enlightenment does no damage at maximum range.

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

You're half right. It does grant stacks form 0 while in combat, however if you're already at max stacks it does not refresh the gl timer to 16.

Also just a heads up, Enlightenment does no damage at maximum range.

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Are you sure? I swear i used it a good few times at max stacks during down time and it set it to 16 while freezing stacks.

EDIT: not my video. 5:20 mark. Clearly shows full stacks being refreshed to 16 with anatman during transition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVq0yF_0aHg&t=260s

Its stupid that this is even something we have to figure out lol.

The problem with SSS simply refreshing GL is due to server delay and just how some bosses are timed, it usually cuts it very close to maintaining GL through time if you can make it all, forcing players to focus on trying to get close to rush boss to refresh stacks distracting from avoiding AoE or reading boss. That said, this is where Anatman is supposed to be used, but then argues if we have and are supposed to use Anatman in these situations, then whats the point of having SSS refresh stacks? It's nice but redundant of an ability that could use different effects instead of having three abilities that all kind of serve the same purpose at 80 albeit with different uses. (PB,Anat,SSS)

It ignored core issue that GL timer is too low if they're going to have monster vanish for so long. It doesn't fit that current fight design. Personally I say go making Mnk high risk high reward. Make them want to stay in the fight. Make GL have an unreachable cap of stacks. Something like 50-100 with each stack increasing 1-2%. The longer a Mnk pushes it, the stronger they become. Then have TK potency based off GL stacks, so it becomes this gamble of how far can you push it before boss vanishes to maximize your TK burst.

Glad to see it's not just me. I was loving the Monk in SB and was leveling it and having fun at 64.

Came back to him for Shadowbringers and can't stand the class. Plays like crap and greased lighting still takes too long to build and drops too fast.

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Originally Posted by silverdragontyr

The problem with SSS simply refreshing GL is due to server delay and just how some bosses are timed, it usually cuts it very close to maintaining GL through time if you can make it all, forcing players to focus on trying to get close to rush boss to refresh stacks distracting from avoiding AoE or reading boss. That said, this is where Anatman is supposed to be used, but then argues if we have and are supposed to use Anatman in these situations, then whats the point of having SSS refresh stacks? It's nice but redundant of an ability that could use different effects instead of having three abilities that all kind of serve the same purpose at 80 albeit with different uses. (PB,Anat,SSS)

It ignored core issue that GL timer is too low if they're going to have monster vanish for so long. It doesn't fit that current fight design. Personally I say go making Mnk high risk high reward. Make them want to stay in the fight. Make GL have an unreachable cap of stacks. Something like 50-100 with each stack increasing 1-2%. The longer a Mnk pushes it, the stronger they become. Then have TK potency based off GL stacks, so it becomes this gamble of how far can you push it before boss vanishes to maximize your TK burst.

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SSS is supposed to be used during mechanics where you have to run away from the boss and you lose a couple gcds of dps. for example having to move to drop an aoe somewhere quickly etc. You do not have to use it but its a dps increase using it if you are gonna lose a couple gcds due to mechanics. Even if you are not gonna lose stacks, its meant to make up for the loss of dps from moving away from the boss for 4secs. Even so I wish it was ogcd, so I can just pop it everytime i move away from the boss.

Anatman is for phase transitions. It builds stacks from 0 so you can TK freely before those long transitons where you dont have to be moving.

Imagine caring about how fun dungeons are in 2019

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Originally Posted by Moenblyss

Imagine caring about how fun dungeons are in 2019

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if the game isnt fun in the content that people spend most of their intitial time in....


well, ill just say i think that type of game would slowly bleed out.


i think their goal would essentially need to be, general combat is fun (satisfying and thrilling), and high end combat is challenging/engaging

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Originally Posted by Moenblyss

Imagine caring about how fun dungeons are in 2019

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Imagine caring about story mode dungeons and having a job that struggles to maintain it's stacks creating the most abysmal leveling experience.

Whilst I'm indifferent to dungeons in general, no job should feel like a slog when playing current story dungeons this late on, which monk currently does and can be very off putting for newer players. The monk playerbase is already small, dungeons being antagonistic towards monk's kit an unfun leveling experience and more likely for players to just drop the job.

The sad fact of the matter is that GL's design and the whole identity of the class revolving around it restricts the class from any evolution it can possibly get. Every other class got something that added onto their rotation or made it a lot cleaner, but MNK stayed exactly the same and got two niche skills that have minimal use and add zero evolution to the class. I was never okay with having to spend a dreadfully long CD that when optimized does better doing other things (spamming leaden fist now) or spend 30 seconds manually reramping to get my stacks back if a fight (or a slow tank) demanded that I dropped them. MNK didn't have to change drastically either, I was 100% content with pressing the same 6 buttons for my rotation ad infinitum, that's basically how every class in the game works anyways, but it feels awful to get nothing new while everyone else gets at the very least something. I'd much prefer that they changed GL to not be so punishing, and be a timer like every other timer in the game but I'll even take a 30 second greased lightning timer at this point.

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Originally Posted by MasyMasy

The sad fact of the matter is that GL's design and the whole identity of the class revolving around it restricts the class from any evolution it can possibly get. Every other class got something that added onto their rotation or made it a lot cleaner, but MNK stayed exactly the same and got two niche skills that have minimal use and add zero evolution to the class. I was never okay with having to spend a dreadfully long CD that when optimized does better doing other things (spamming leaden fist now) or spend 30 seconds manually reramping to get my stacks back if a fight (or a slow tank) demanded that I dropped them. MNK didn't have to change drastically either, I was 100% content with pressing the same 6 buttons for my rotation ad infinitum, that's basically how every class in the game works anyways, but it feels awful to get nothing new while everyone else gets at the very least something. I'd much prefer that they changed GL to not be so punishing, and be a timer like every other timer in the game but I'll even take a 30 second greased lightning timer at this point.

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So then what willmake MNK different from any other class? Gl design actually doesnt prohibit evolution, a lack of imagination, vision and teamworks does restrict the evolution from the class. Kind of what you are doing. Either way personal perspective aside, there are some good proposition regarding MNK soem more feasible than others and most of them mesh well with GL design and MNK core identity.

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Originally Posted by Moenblyss

Imagine caring about how fun dungeons are in 2019

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Imagine going through pages of forum posts and resurrecting a 3 week old dead thread to make a snarky comment.

Let me ask you a fair question since you had some time to do some reading, it seems.

Do you think that anything that is written here directly related to Savage raiders or players at a high level is going to get much visibility/traction on this forum? Or do you think perhaps my original post was written the way it is in order to cater to a general audience?

But, sure, I'll humour you.

Imagine having to install a server tick overlay on your ACT to have the ability to properly execute the standard 5.0 monk opener.

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Originally Posted by reyre

So then what willmake MNK different from any other class? Gl design actually doesnt prohibit evolution, a lack of imagination, vision and teamworks does restrict the evolution from the class. Kind of what you are doing. Either way personal perspective aside, there are some good proposition regarding MNK soem more feasible than others and most of them mesh well with GL design and MNK core identity.

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Monk's core identity before they shifted into GL being the most important thing ever used to be fast hitting potency lacking attacks. It wasn't until recently that they shifted the focus away from this. GL used to feel like a thing that just felt natural going with the class, but in shadowbringers it feels like the whole identity, since we got three whole traits and skills dedicated to it.

Things I'd like to see assuming we have to keep the stacking buff:

A one button GL stack, Like anatman, but doesn't need a server tick.
A rework of the Chakra system, remove the RNG on RNG needed for accumulating chakra, increase the pace, and lower TFC's potency to be reasonable in exchange for machine gunning them out
Complete rework of tornado kick, every 30s at max GL grants a tornado kick.
Change to SSS, OGCD, higher damage, adds a stack.
Riddle of Earth, one button save.
PB back to 60s
Removal of fist stances
Bring back howling fist and steel peak

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Originally Posted by MasyMasy

Monk's core identity before they shifted into GL being the most important thing ever used to be fast hitting potency lacking attacks. It wasn't until recently that they shifted the focus away from this. GL used to feel like a thing that just felt natural going with the class, but in shadowbringers it feels like the whole identity, since we got three whole traits and skills dedicated to it.

Things I'd like to see assuming we have to keep the stacking buff:

A one button GL stack, Like anatman, but doesn't need a server tick.
A rework of the Chakra system, remove the RNG on RNG needed for accumulating chakra, increase the pace, and lower TFC's potency to be reasonable in exchange for machine gunning them out
Complete rework of tornado kick, every 30s at max GL grants a tornado kick.
Change to SSS, OGCD, higher damage, adds a stack.
Riddle of Earth, one button save.
PB back to 60s
Removal of fist stances
Bring back howling fist and steel peak

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I do agree with most of the changes everyone is proposing and they are needed, however i do have a question, Monk core identity was to hit fast, not strong, that is true but how did we hit fast? i mean by what means? wasnt it always by building up and maintaining GL? now you say that in ShB MNK is dedicated to GL unlike before when it was dedicated to GL, and your argument for this is because in ShB MNK has more traits and skills dedicated to GL, but is this true? I mean we got Anat and SSS as skills and a weird GL4 one, but if i look before in ARR 2 of 3 MNK traits and skills were Literally GL and PB, then in HW Mnk got nothing GL related (TK doesnt count), in SB MNK got RoE, RoW (after a while) and more spammable PB. I mean if i were to look at this data objectvely MNk has always have a very clear focus on Gl, and its not recent, with the exception of HW, MNK has always been GL prime, or maybe im not looking at this properly?

So by "they shifted into GL being the most important thing..." you mean like it always has?

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Originally Posted by Rockette

I don't understand it. We finally got our armor crush, / 20 second huton refresh, enochian button, blood of the dragon refresh. Then they took it away and left in the part everyone universally hated. I understand they didn't want Tornado kick rotation to be a thing so why not fix tornado kick into a skill that doesn't directly contrast with the rest of Monk's Greased Lightning based kit.

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I still don't think of it as a contrast so much as a coolly synergetic way to make a cooldown. I miss being able to viably using TK mid-combat. I'd have much preferred that they simply:

1. Fix SkS as a stat.
2. Fix Tornado Kick's potency bug so it's now tightly competitive rather than obligatory.
3. Increase FoW's Movement Speed bonus to 15%, that of Rogues, and have it add 5% Attack Speed. No GL4 added; Steel Peak and Howling Fist retained instead.
4. Change Riddle of Wind into a 30-second CD that repeats your last hit at 50% damage or duration. Quick-cross-DoT, quick-burst, quick-GL.
5. Remove aspected Tackles or make something decent out of them, such as Earth Tackle knocking you back 10 yalms if the enemy cannot be moved, Wind Tackle unlocking a second charge-stun at no potency (RoW, but only for mobility/utility), and Flame Tackle including an AoE component.

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Originally Posted by reyre

I do agree with most of the changes everyone is proposing and they are needed, however i do have a question, Monk core identity was to hit fast, not strong, that is true but how did we hit fast? i mean by what means? wasnt it always by building up and maintaining GL? now you say that in ShB MNK is dedicated to GL unlike before when it was dedicated to GL, and your argument for this is because in ShB MNK has more traits and skills dedicated to GL, but is this true? I mean we got Anat and SSS as skills and a weird GL4 one, but if i look before in ARR 2 of 3 MNK traits and skills were Literally GL and PB, then in HW Mnk got nothing GL related (TK doesnt count), in SB MNK got RoE, RoW (after a while) and more spammable PB. I mean if i were to look at this data objectvely MNk has always have a very clear focus on Gl, and its not recent, with the exception of HW, MNK has always been GL prime, or maybe im not looking at this properly?

So by "they shifted into GL being the most important thing..." you mean like it always has?

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monk wasn't really fast not strong, they have the same speed up ninja has, until huton. Samurai also has one. Monk was about building up power/speed. Not the fastest burst, but once it gets going, pretty decent. It was always a problematic design though.

So right now, between MNK, NIN and SAM, assuming you dig the playstyle, which is the safest bet for the future?

If you want straight damage? Sam easily. It will be the most damage for the lowest maintenance/effort, and the identity of the class has stayed mostly solid.

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

So right now, between MNK, NIN and SAM, assuming you dig the playstyle, which is the safest bet for the future?

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You really don't want to think about the jobs like this. You should play what you find fun, not what is considered meta, or does the best damage etc. All 3 play differently and you should explore them all to see which appeals to you most.

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Originally Posted by Irisdina_Wiloh

You really don't want to think about the jobs like this. You should play what you find fun, not what is considered meta, or does the best damage etc. All 3 play differently and you should explore them all to see which appeals to you most.

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When is that not a part of "assuming you dig the playstyle"?

@Niyuki
Due to community preconceptions, usually NIN will be considered the most valuable (as its rDPS tends to be treated as damn near sacred even when its total contribution can be outperformed by other jobs), but keep in mind that NIN is probably now some five times or so as difficult as MNK or especially SAM.

SAM is currently undertuned, but this may soon be remedied. If you've little faith in SAM being fixed before near the end of xpac, as in SB, then I'd suggest MNK if you don't want as much difficulty. Otherwise, they should be relatively even choices.

That is assuming, of course, that you dig the playstyle of each. Also, keep in mind MNK will eventually demand server-tick manipulation for optimal openers, more significantly than SAM's, if you choose to play that at a high level.

Leveling my MNK, currently 67. It's getting shelved as soon as it hits 70. Never disliked a class so much before. It feels like the class plays counterproductive with itself. Losing GL feels so awful, like, why don't you just break both my arms with you at it?! >:(

Also, TK eating up GL is....kinda dumb?

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Originally Posted by battleshadow66

Leveling my MNK, currently 67. It's getting shelved as soon as it hits 70. Never disliked a class so much before. It feels like the class plays counterproductive with itself. Losing GL feels so awful, like, why don't you just break both my arms with you at it?! >:(

Also, TK eating up GL is....kinda dumb?

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Monk more or less plays identically to how it played in A Realm Reborn/Heavensward, unfortunately with all of the quality of life that other jobs have gotten in terms of trademark buff upkeep, how their rotations have changed and how they're rewarded for good play, Monk remaining unchanged is really a detriment to the job and not something praiseworthy.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Monk more or less plays identically to how it played in A Realm Reborn/Heavensward, unfortunately with all of the quality of life that other jobs have gotten in terms of trademark buff upkeep, how their rotations have changed and how they're rewarded for good play, Monk remaining unchanged is really a detriment to the job and not something praiseworthy.

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I'd argue that MNK plays much worse in its current state than it ever did in ARR/HW; at least we had a coherent skill set that just all flowed well together back then. I'd gladly trade everything that MNK has gotten from SB+ShB just to have old HW rotation back as it's all felt like a devolution rather than an evolution for the job.