Going to the same route as WoW. The game is TOO easy

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Originally Posted by Vidu

You're welcome to try, but you only have a chance if you're a FemRoe!

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See you atleast get it. Tho -DEATH- cause I'm a miqo jones. T.T

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

Well one it's mostly a joke... and two.. damn.... I always say hi in dungeons or make a joke or two. Not everything needs to be super serious business.... ouch. I mean we're in a video game.. not at a job.

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How I feel. We are playing an MMO, not a single player game. Conversations is needed to some extent. XD Even if it it's a simple things as a hello. It's common courtesy to at least greet someone, even if it isn't reciprocated.

eh? When was WoW not ever easy?

WoW been super easy from the very start not even a challenge, can't even compare that.
I ran over the content for years in WoW I get more of a challenge from FFXIV than I ever did in WoW

The only challenge I ever got in WoW was pvp

You know how else its the same? People who have never cleared ultimate are saying that the game is too easy.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

You're welcome to try, but you only have a chance if you're a FemRoe!

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To glomp on you Vidu, I would fantasia every toon I have!

On topic: I just had to do Castrum Flumis on two toons mine and and my GFs. There were three vote abandons and multiple attempts each try due to wipes. I can't even Imagine what she would be like on savage. I say there is plenty of challenge left!

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Originally Posted by Hitori

Also, community isn't the same as sub numbers. There might be more people playing than ever, but be honest, what community interaction do the MAJORITY of people have besides standing in their city of choice and waiting for their queue?

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All we can do is speak from our own experiences...so:

While you're right, most people idle in town or near their FC house, but I joined a community of raiders (casual to hardcore, everything in between) and when Savage is current, the crossworld linkshell is BUSTLING with organizing parties setting up progs, clears, farms, etc. Raiding may be for <5% of players but communities like ours exist for those that want it.

Dungeons and 24mans will never be more difficult than they are now, its sad but true. I realized why when I tried dragging my casual friends into Extreme/Savage: they don't want harder content. They think they do, but they really dont. they want to be ABLE to conquer "hard" content but they dont actually want to put any work into learning how to optimize their job, how to effectively play with others via communication (shocker), or studying up on how mechanics work. they really want to clear content in 1-3 attempts with w/e acceptable level of attention they have to offer at that time.

overall, I think the game is in a good spot for both hard/casual content.

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Originally Posted by Hitori

The challenge is gone and with it the community.

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The challenge is not gone, it's that you're actually skilled. Normal dungeons are rather boring outside of bosses for those of us who are skilled. EX trials and 8/24 man raids are what keep us going, those require some skill and coordination to pull off effectively. Do not measure the game based on dungeons which are made with a more casual playerbase in mind. Also, if you want communication, start up a conversation in the 24 mans and EX farm parties, you'll be surprised how many are talkative.

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

Well one it's mostly a joke... and two.. damn.... I always say hi in dungeons or make a joke or two. Not everything needs to be super serious business.... ouch. I mean we're in a video game.. not at a job.

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(I actually agree with that and I'll always say "Hello" at the start and "Thanks for the run" at the end - but thats not conversation, thats just common courtesy.)

A few things A: I'm not a WoW player, though I did play Vanilla and TBC, if people bothered to actually read the OP they would see that.

I'm sorry some people's feelings seem to be hurt via my opinions, but there are plenty of people who want more challenge in the day to day mechanics of the game. No one bothered to refute my point of sitting in the city and waiting in line for something to do.

Don't be mad, I'm not saying the game isn't fun, I am saying it could be MORE fun if there was MORE challenge.

Yes there is SOME challenge art the very tip of the game, but the other 90% requires little to no communication and thus builds little to no community.

I guess if this is your first MMO you wouldn't understand.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

You know how else its the same? People who have never cleared ultimate are saying taht the game is too easy.

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There is nothing newsworthy about hardcore raiders saying most of the game is easy. When casual players start saying the same it should raise an eyebrow.

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Originally Posted by Hitori

A few things A: I'm not a WoW player, though I did play Vanilla and TBC, if people bothered to actually read the OP they would see that.

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If you're not a WoW player, how can you claim that WoW is too easy now? Maybe you should change the thread's title? If you don't play WoW, then you have no way of knowing whether the game's current trajectory is the same as WoW's.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

There is nothing newsworthy about hardcore raiders saying most of the game is easy. When casual players start saying the same it should raise an eyebrow.

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'There is challenging content that not event 10% of the community has cleared. He should focus on that before saying the game is too easy.

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Originally Posted by Hitori

there are plenty of people who want more challenge in the day to day mechanics of the game. No one bothered to refute my point of sitting in the city and waiting in line for something to do.

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You entire point was predicated on classic hype. Come back three months after classic is out and we can talk about how many people want that.

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Originally Posted by Hitori

A few things A: I'm not a WoW player, though I did play Vanilla and TBC, if people bothered to actually read the OP they would see that.

I'm sorry some people's feelings seem to be hurt via my opinions, but there are plenty of people who want more challenge in the day to day mechanics of the game. No one bothered to refute my point of sitting in the city and waiting in line for something to do.

Don't be mad, I'm not saying the game isn't fun, I am saying it could be MORE fun if there was MORE challenge.

Yes there is SOME challenge art the very tip of the game, but the other 90% requires little to no communication and thus builds little to no community.

I guess if this is your first MMO you wouldn't understand.

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I'd relax on the insult D: As from what I've seen noone is hurt by your opinion.. Alot of people disagree with it... but thats not hurt. That's just a different side of the coin. The reason I asked if you did anything higher or read the dutyfinder thread was making normal dungeons harder wouldn't do anything. Rath is one of the hardest fights in the game that's not UwU and hardly anyone does it. I LOVE that fight, I love the fact you ONLY get 3 lives, but most of the people in this game don't and it's kindof dead content. Just like those harder dungeons you want will be dead cause noone REALLY wants harder content. I believe the peole that ASK for it don't really want hard content... they just want content to be gated from everyone else. And like it or not.. noone is going to take your request seriously unless you got both ultimate fights cleared, ALL of avs cleared on all characters and perform at the highest level. Thats just the way it is cause otherwise if all you done is the 24 man and you're asking for harder content..and haven't cleared what we have.. ye---ah. :C

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

If you're not a WoW player, how can you claim that WoW is too easy now? Maybe you should change the thread's title? If you don't play WoW, then you have no way of knowing whether the game's current trajectory is the same as WoW's.

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I am played WoW for years, the only thing that made wow hard was factions trying to murder you, if you were the right level and had gear nothing can beat you in WoW when you fight other players that was real challenge cause they would run get their alliance members to come back and fight you if you camped their soul.

depending on if you chose the right server one with pvp in it and easy mode pve

I thought about going back but I don't have a PC I used to but it fried and I am saving for a new one.

I heard about the going back to the past stuff they've been talking about so i am kinda interested.

I don't know...

With the Trusts System coming in ShB, I hope they utilize it to be able to make Dungeons/Normal Trials a little bit harder. Like, not Super-Elite-Savage-Ultimate-Mega-Heroic difficulty. But something that offers at least some resistance to being plowed through. With the backup that "Muh Story" people who managed to boot up the game seemingly by mere chance as opposed to actually knowing what the heck they were doing, would be still able to progress utilizing Trusts.

While also including more mid-core stuff for end-game.

I mean, ideally, I'd love for dungeons to feel more like dungeons, not mad dashes through a few loot boxes... Like, I'd rather run 1 epic hour long dungeon with appropriate rewards and some level of challenge other than "Mass pull and unga bunga" than spam out 6x 10 minute zerg fests where my brain is melting through pure tedium...

But alas, this won't happen, because Casuls and their "OMG I work 4 jobs with 10 hour shifts per day and am at the gym 40 hours every day so I only get 0.3s to play video games, why should I be excluded from content!" whining...

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Originally Posted by Hitori

A few things A: I'm not a WoW player, though I did play Vanilla and TBC, if people bothered to actually read the OP they would see that.

I'm sorry some people's feelings seem to be hurt via my opinions, but there are plenty of people who want more challenge in the day to day mechanics of the game. No one bothered to refute my point of sitting in the city and waiting in line for something to do.

Don't be mad, I'm not saying the game isn't fun, I am saying it could be MORE fun if there was MORE challenge.

Yes there is SOME challenge art the very tip of the game, but the other 90% requires little to no communication and thus builds little to no community.

I guess if this is your first MMO you wouldn't understand.

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OK so we are talking age. I played EQ when I was 20 yrs old. that was back in 99 it was a brand new game for reference and what got me hooked on MMOs since then I have played I don't even know how many cuse now I'm old. In ALL that time in my experience very seldom was there any communication with anyone other than guild mates and RL friends.

As to waiting in line. Well that's normal even back in the stone age of MMOs you had to wait. wait for someone to need your class wait for guild mates to come on line wait for help to finish your epic. MMOs are about waiting and grinding.

Reading the replies no one is mad or hurt they are expressing opinions that are counter to yours. I get the impression you felt your OP would be unpopular, Don't be shocked if it was.

As someone that's been playing WoW long enough to see it rise and fall, this is false. The Game isnt even close to approaching WoWs decline.

FFXIV has always had a issue with its difficulty curve. This isn't something recent not does it have anything to do with WoW refugees.

The general forums loves its hyperbole I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

'There is challenging content that not event 10% of the community has cleared. He should focus on that before saying the game is too easy.

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When he clears it and comes back saying the everyday content is tuned to be too easy, people will tell him "well of course, you are an ultimate raider and this content is for casuals". Lets not shut down the conversation by gatekeeping. Everyone who does dungeons should be able to give feedback on them.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

But alas, this won't happen, because Casuls and their "OMG I work 4 jobs with 10 hour shifts per day and am at the gym 40 hours every day so I only get 0.3s to play video games, why should I be excluded from content!" whining...

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I was gonna stay out of this since I personally don't care about Savage and Ultimate content, but this comment is utterly ridiculous. You act like people who have other priorities beyond playing a video game aren't allowed to enjoy what time they can dedicate to playing this one. If the game is too tedious for you because all of us 'Casuals' are making it boring then go somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Joven

I was gonna stay out of this since I personally don't care about Savage and Ultimate content, but this comment is utterly ridiculous. You act like people who have other priorities beyond playing a video game aren't allowed to enjoy what time they can dedicate to playing this one. If the game is too tedious for you because all of us 'Casuals' are making it boring then go somewhere else.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0BKh...pz7q/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Reeereee

You entire point was predicated on classic hype. Come back three months after classic is out and we can talk about how many people want that.

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If you don't think Classic is going to be huge success, you're not very aware.

While i dont think the game has level wow level of braindead, i agree its on the route to it. They are like 2 mechanics or so in the whole msq where you cant stand in it and be fine.
What some people here dont get is that dividing the playerbase in 323412 different groups and not providing a base difficulty at the bottom level is gonna bite a game in the ass in the long run.
Some people have a problem that FFXIV is essentially, suprise, a videogame. As in you shouldn't be able to see the "Game Over" screen, thats bad and elitist. Like elitist super mario games
It doesnt matter if the game has ultimate or savage. Thats the same with myhtic raiding with wow. Nobody cares about the extreme end of the spectrum and also dishonest to even argue that way, its not the point.

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Originally Posted by Joven

I was gonna stay out of this since I personally don't care about Savage and Ultimate content, but this comment is utterly ridiculous. You act like people who have other priorities beyond playing a video game aren't allowed to enjoy what time they can dedicate to playing this one. If the game is too tedious for you because all of us 'Casuals' are making it boring then go somewhere else.

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It also doesn't look like they've actually done the difficult content in the game lol.

Usually if you are going to preach "casuals ruining the game, harder content needed" you've at least done some of the difficult content that exists.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It also doesn't look like they've actually done the difficult content in the game lol.

Usually if you are going to preach "casuals ruining the game, harder content needed" you've at least done some of the difficult content that exists.

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thats a fallacy you actually pointed out yourself.
How is game good designed if you need to go out of your way to find challenge? Imagine playing a jrpg were you snoozing through 90% of the game and only the super bosses are in the vicinity of being a threat
Masterfull game design
its also a strawman, the thread doesnt say there is no challenging content in the game. Thats not the same thing as the base game feeling to easy.

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Originally Posted by Hitori

If you don't think Classic is going to be huge success, you're not very aware.

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Even bad MMOs like Wildstar generate large amounts of unrealistic hype before they're released. The hype for classic is no more realistic than the hype for SWTOR, only this time people should know better because it already released once in 2004.

Again, come back three months after it's released and we'll talk then.

Also Mr.Happy pointed out, that they could make the classes two button each and people would still find a way to f it up. There will always be the player skill variable

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Originally Posted by Hitori

A few things A: I'm not a WoW player, though I did play Vanilla and TBC, if people bothered to actually read the OP they would see that.

I'm sorry some people's feelings seem to be hurt via my opinions, but there are plenty of people who want more challenge in the day to day mechanics of the game. No one bothered to refute my point of sitting in the city and waiting in line for something to do.

Don't be mad, I'm not saying the game isn't fun, I am saying it could be MORE fun if there was MORE challenge.

Yes there is SOME challenge art the very tip of the game, but the other 90% requires little to no communication and thus builds little to no community.

I guess if this is your first MMO you wouldn't understand.

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I remember waiting a lot in Vanilla WoW and BC :/ I mean, I was 12 at the time, so my perception of time might not be the best, But I distinctly remember waiting 2 hours in Org once for someone to be running Scholo and needing a hunter :/ BC was alot of the same,nothing has really changed Imo, lol.

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Originally Posted by Joven

I was gonna stay out of this since I personally don't care about Savage and Ultimate content, but this comment is utterly ridiculous. You act like people who have other priorities beyond playing a video game aren't allowed to enjoy what time they can dedicate to playing this one. If the game is too tedious for you because all of us 'Casuals' are making it boring then go somewhere else.

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Umm...

Excuse me?

I'm talking about the people who complain that they can't spend time playing a video game, so demand that the game be changed to fit around their schedule.

The people who forget that most people have lives outside of playing games, people have jobs and families and other real life commitments and still find time to play a video game (In a genre that's literally about spending a lot of time playing a game - Not just the RPG genre but the MMO one too) and think that they're so special that the game MUST be reduced down to content that takes very little time to do because they can't manage their time enough to afford to invest time into leisure activities.

These are different to people who may simply be casual players, that maybe don't play every day of the week because they've actually managed their life around being able to actually play video games instead of crying until video games are catered around their own poor life management. Most casual players don't whine about how they don't have time to commit to gaming, they just enjoy themselves in content they can do in the time they have available.

It's the vocal ones that whine and moan about being "Excluded" from content and demand that things become easier and faster so they can complete it without putting in any time or effort (Which is a bizarre stance to take when attempting to play massive timesink games like MMORPG's) that are the ones I was denouncing.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It also doesn't look like they've actually done the difficult content in the game lol.

Usually if you are going to preach "casuals ruining the game, harder content needed" you've at least done some of the difficult content that exists.

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It also doesn't look like you read my post.

I'm not saying harder content is needed (As in, hardcore content, as in, Savage/Ultimate)

More that the baseline content that is done (I.e. Normal dungeons/trials) should be bumped up in difficulty - Given that Trusts will still let "Casuls" and bad players get through the content required for MSQ. Also again, I mentioned, not necessarily made to be "Hard" or "Difficult" but something that is a little bit more engaging.

In addition, to suggesting that Dungeons not be so small (Which has nothing to do with difficulty)

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

Well one it's mostly a joke... and two.. damn.... I always say hi in dungeons or make a joke or two. Not everything needs to be super serious business.... ouch. I mean we're in a video game.. not at a job.

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Even trusts are chill.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

Also Mr.Happy pointed out, that they could make the classes two button each and people would still find a way to f it up. There will always be the player skill variable

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Doesnt that mean the game would be "too hard" with only 2 buttons cause people f up their rotation by that logic and they need to simplfy it?
I dont get what some of your guys argue here, obviously skill level of every individual person on planet earth is different. However you still draw the line somewhere and thats the discussion, did you never play another videogame before?
Most of the most played videogames have quite the difficulty curve in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Hitori

.snip.

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Hi there. I didn't play WoW in the original classic, but I did play in BC, and Wrath, and Cata, and MoP, and a bit of WoD, and Legion, and even a bit of BFA (or, short version: I've played literally every expansion that game has to offer). The problem with the latest expansion has nothing to do with difficulty...RNGforAzeroth isn't any easier or harder than Legion was, and Legion was awesome. It's not really any easier or harder than MoP was, and MoP wasn't bad. it's slightly easier than Cata was, and Cata sucked. It's slightly easier than Wrath was, and Wrath was awesome. It's slightly easier than BC was, and BC wasn't bad. So, it's not a difficulty thing...more of a "everything is RNG" now thing...the only way it'd be worse is if it had an actual cash shop for your daily loot boxes. (For people who've only played FFXIV, the problem with WoW nowadays is that it's Eureka. [Yes, it's THAT bad.]).

Classic might be mildly successful, and I would be surprised to see it completely flop...because there's going to at least be a nostalgia effect for some people and others will want to see things they might have missed (such as 40m Naxx). However, I would be just as surprised to see it be a 'huge success.' If that was to be the case, the private servers that have been up for over a decade (and don't require a $15/mo sub to play) would have been far more active than they were when I visited them.

Now, as to your original complaint...this game isn't really easier or harder than WoW's been at any point, at least at the base level. (Note: while I say this as a player with very little Savage experience in FFXIV, I also say it as a player with extensive raid experience in WoW (in multiple expansions), ESO, and SWTOR.) Remember that in WoW people literally rely on applets (DBM, OmniCC, GTFO, WeakAuras, etc.) in order to play content above the base level...and content at the base level is about on par with FFXIV base level content (i.e. dungeons are about the same difficulty [although in WoW it's more focus on healing and FFXIV it's more focus on Healer DPS], 24m are about the same difficulty as LFR [up to and including that in many cases you could practically AFK through it], 8m normal raids are about on par with normal raids in WoW (i.e. not hard), and the challenge primarily exists in areas that most people don't do (like Savage/Ultimate in FFXIV and early-tier Heroic and Mythic raids in WoW). SWTOR is the same way. GW2...same way. TERA was the same way (when it was good). TSW was the same way...that's how MMOs work, it's how they've always worked, and it's likely how they'll continue to work into the foreseeable future.

If it's not your thing, I get that...and you can either not focus on that content or find something else that you will enjoy....but let's not try and ruin a formula that clearly works just because there are things that appeal to more casual players.

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Originally Posted by Hitori

If you don't think Classic is going to be huge success, you're not very aware.

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While Im sure classic will be fun and draw certain crowds, you should be also taking it with a grain of salt due to two very big factors.

1) People are broadly dissatisfied with the current state of WoW. It doesnt live up to their expectations or interests. So anything that isnt the current state of wow will get boosted. This includes classic.
2) People are nostalgic for those halcyon days of their youths when they played classic WoW. This usually means people dont remember or downplay the bad parts of Vanilla WoW. They have rose tinted glasses on.

Im sure classic will be successful, atleast at first. But I have trouble seeing it 'smash' everything. Afterall, all Classic is is a repackaged version of Vanilla. Nothing 'new' will be brought to the table. And while it will be fun, people will reach it's end game and thatll be it. There is no where for it to go. And if people are looking at it wtih Rose Tinted specs, then theyll hit their satisfaction faster than someone whos playing through it new.

The irony here is what really separates FFXIV from WoW is the casual content. When the Golden Saucer was packed for the FF15 crossover you never see anything like that in WoW. The story is much better and accessible to everyone. I can have a house with an aquarium filled with fish I caught? I can choose from multiple idling animations? A new hairstyle nearly every major patch?

FFXIV distinguishes itself from WoW primarily by doing casual content with excellence.

If what I wanted was just super hard content then yeah, would go play +25 dungeons and mythic raids from WoW.

So I decided to look up OP's records.

...You haven't actually done any of the Savage raids. So I'm not sure you're really qualified to be saying that the game is too easy, when you haven't stepped foot into the hardest content the game has to offer.

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I came from a game that pretty much had nothing but raids to look forward to at endgame. Since then, I've come to view FFXIV's apparent, uh, casual-ness as a necessity for maintaining growth in the community. My previous game stagnated hard, because when you make a raid-oriented game, it turns out that eventually growth just stops because the established raid community acts as their own entry barrier. Whether it be cliques, expectations, or even market manipulation. A game centered towards raids more or less means you can't really get anything worthwhile done if you don't play in the same peak hours as the majority of the raiding community either.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Umm...

Excuse me?

I'm talking about the people who complain that they can't spend time playing a video game, so demand that the game be changed to fit around their schedule.

The people who forget that most people have lives outside of playing games, people have jobs and families and other real life commitments and still find time to play a video game (In a genre that's literally about spending a lot of time playing a game - Not just the RPG genre but the MMO one too) and think that they're so special that the game MUST be reduced down to content that takes very little time to do because they can't manage their time enough to afford to invest time into leisure activities.

These are different to people who may simply be casual players, that maybe don't play every day of the week because they've actually managed their life around being able to actually play video games instead of crying until video games are catered around their own poor life management. Most casual players don't whine about how they don't have time to commit to gaming, they just enjoy themselves in content they can do in the time they have available.

It's the vocal ones that whine and moan about being "Excluded" from content and demand that things become easier and faster so they can complete it without putting in any time or effort (Which is a bizarre stance to take when attempting to play massive timesink games like MMORPG's) that are the ones I was denouncing.

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Then you should have said then what you just said now instead of generalizing a whole group of players by just saying 'Casuals'.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

So I decided to look up OP's records.

...You haven't actually done any of the Savage raids. So I'm not sure you're really qualified to be saying that the game is too easy, when you haven't stepped foot into the hardest content the game has to offer.

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That has nothing to do with ops claim and is gatekeeping. Its also kinda silly, along of the lines of you need to a filmmaker to critize star wars or something

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Originally Posted by Kaitoo

That has nothing to do with ops claim and is gatekeeping. Its also kinda silly, along of the lines of you need to a filmmaker to critize star wars or something

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Except this is different. Hard content exists. Saying the game is easy when never having done any of said content is like saying building rockets and spaceships is easy without ever having been an aerospace engineer.

Your example fails because movies are watchable content. You can critizice the acting, script and such after watching it if there were things you didn't like. What is closer to the topic is saying "star wars is terrible" without ever having watched any of the movies.

The story is easy, like most final fantasy games. Then you have the extra content, which is harder, also like most final fantasy games.

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Originally Posted by Kaitoo

thats a fallacy you actually pointed out yourself.
How is game good designed if you need to go out of your way to find challenge? Imagine playing a jrpg were you snoozing through 90% of the game and only the super bosses are in the vicinity of being a threat
Masterfull game design
its also a strawman, the thread doesnt say there is no challenging content in the game. Thats not the same thing as the base game feeling to easy.

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You mean every Final fantasy game I II and XI being the exception?
Challenge is subjective what i find easy someone else might find hard. Take Dark souls for example, a Friend of mine struggles each time on Abyss Watchers but can easily beat Aldritch while i'm the opposite. There are plenty of instances in rthis game where i struggle, like whenever fighting a Chimera type enemy, despite playing since ARR's Beta i have never been able to deal with those enemies gracefully, i always mess up, but there are plenty of bosses i can do flawlessly while the rest of my group flounders.

When you make a game like this you have to cater for everyones skill level and lets face it the vast majority of people don't have hotbars scattered all over their screen with hundreds of macros, i've been playing MMO's since 2004 and i still can't understand macros. Steps of Faith was a massive wall for people back in the day imagine if every dungeon was like that.

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Originally Posted by Kaitoo

That has nothing to do with ops claim and is gatekeeping. Its also kinda silly, along of the lines of you need to a filmmaker to critize star wars or something

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It's not gatekeeping to ask for one's experience, to counteract an argument made by someone making such a sweeping statement about the game's design without actually experiencing the very content that runs counter to the argument.

And I hope you realize that game design and watching a movie are two entirely different concepts. One requires actual effort, effort that the OP apparently hasn't put forth.