We are in need of a official response to the healer situation

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Do you know why the "Wait til you play" argument keeps popping up? Because it's generally common sense and common decency. The real world equivalent would be like making a reservation at a new restaurant and before you even go and experience it for yourself you log onto yelp and bash the place because you heard some people say a few negative things about it and have no clue if they've even been there themselves. You don't know anything yet, you don't see the full picture yet. You feel like you have a grasp on it, and these meltdowns and childish demands for replies and expectations of the devs to drop everything they are doing to answer these complaints, and before this gets out of hand when I say you I don't mean you personally I mean the healer outrage crowd in general. just so that's clear. Machinists did the same thing in stormblood, they beat their chests, blew up these forums, everyone said it was pointless but they continued to do so, the difference being machinists actually had gameplay proof and tons of experience with the job to be able to bring real feedback to the dev team.

So why yes it seems like dire straights, there's a thing called empathy and understanding.

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This would be relevant if it were the first expansion and we hadn't been down this road before.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Yes. Apparently the forums don't think it's a good idea to check the content where the changes would be relevant before picking up the pitchforks and start poking away.
"Shoot first, ask questions later" seems to be the dominant mindset based off a strong bias that "because nothing changed before, nothing will change now!". (If everything worked that way, nothing would ever change. But that doesn't seem to be wildly understood.)

And here I thought people learned a lesson with Gordias and were shown how badly community's feedback could negatively impact something before it's even out. I guess I was wrong.

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Explain this to me because perhaps i misunderstood somenthing, you are saying that you should not use past experiences as a basis to predict future outcomes, at least not use them as ENOUGH proof to acertain the future of anything, yet you use the gordias as reason enough to make the point that feedback can impact negatively this expact...dont you see the contradiction there?
If you can use past experiences as evidence or proof of anything then so can others.

Given that AST dps isn't really changing at all, and it's workload isn't really decreasing (you'll be just as focused on drawing the correct cards for the seals, it just won't have as much variety in their effects) then if AST is doing ok now, then I don't see why it won't play pretty much the same in ShB.
If AST is ok, why would the other two be any worse?
WHM has lost... one DoT.
SCH has been hit the hardest, but ultimately, as long as their dps output is the same, it's just streamlining their dps skills...

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

What was plan and design reason behind SB WHM lilies? Was people's feedback after they saw 10 minutes of its footage wrong? Did their feedback change after people had time to play through the expansion?

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What feedback, specifically? There's this neat thing people like to do, which is - remember what they were right about and forget what they were wrong about. And here we are today, remembering how right everyone was pre-Stormblood.

Now let me ask you this ... As a result of feedback:

Did anything change about lillies before Stormblood launch?
Did anything change about lillies after Stormblood launch?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Given that AST dps isn't really changing at all, and it's workload isn't really decreasing (you'll be just as focused on drawing the correct cards for the seals, it just won't have as much variety in their effects) then if AST is doing ok now, then I don't see why it won't play pretty much the same in ShB.
If AST is ok, why would the other two be any worse?
WHM has lost... one DoT.
SCH has been hit the hardest, but ultimately, as long as their dps output is the same, it's just streamlining their dps skills...

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There's a difference between "workload" in terms of APM (though that will be diminished too, given the loss of RR) and in terms of the combined number and depth of potential processes or interactions into which the player would be engaged. Losing my currents cards costs me agency and that loss of agency, in turn, reduces the number of control vectors I'd be expected to accommodate for/in optimal play.

The impact is limited in boss-stands-in-center-of-the-30-yard-radius-circle-most-of-the-time-even-if-the-tank-were-to-try-fruitlessly-to-move-it-elsewhere-because-its-prescripted-rotations-will-also-force-its-positions-so-really-what-are-you-really-even-doing-except-for-hitting-counter-buttons-on-schedules-and-hopefully-having-to-manage-movement-around-a-few-random-elements-that-likewise-appear-on-precise-schedules Savage raids, sure, but... should we axe any and all toolkit components that don't make a great showing in the dim light of stale copy-paste core fight designs? You certainly wouldn't make light of the cards, if only properly balanced, in something like Mythic+, for instance...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There's a difference between "workload" in terms of APM (though that will be diminished too, given the loss of RR) and in terms of the combined number and depth of potential processes or interactions into which the player would be engaged. Losing my currents cards costs me agency and that loss of agency, in turn, reduces the number of control vectors I'd be expected to accommodate for/in optimal play.

The impact is limited in boss-stands-in-center-of-the-30-yard-radius-circle-most-of-the-time-even-if-the-tank-were-to-try-fruitlessly-to-move-it-elsewhere-because-its-prescripted-rotations-will-also-force-its-positions-so-really-what-are-you-really-even-doing-except-for-hitting-counter-buttons-on-schedules-and-hopefully-having-to-manage-movement-around-a-few-random-elements-that-likewise-appear-on-precise-schedules Savage raids, sure, but... should we axe any and all toolkit components that don't make a great showing in the dim light of stale copy-paste core fight designs? You certainly wouldn't make light of the cards, if only properly balanced, in something like Mythic+, for instance...

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I never said I was in favour of the way cards have been reworked, quite the opposite.
But from a practical standpoint, AST DPS hasn't taken a hit, and APM hasn't changed too drastically.
So this whole "healers will have nothing to do, SE thinks healers should just heal" idea is nonsense.
We're not doing less things besides healing, we're just doing different, perhaps less interesting things.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

You're very unlikely to get anything except an "I know" from Yoshi P if the subject comes up. That's all he really said in Stormblood aside from "Wait till 70."

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"Trust me"

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Originally Posted by Laphael

4. ALL JOBS ARE BORING IN LOW LVL CONTENT! Its nothing new with healers in Shb. Most Jobs are boring till 60 atm and with increased lvl cap its probably getting worse.

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This should never be an acceptable outcome. A majority of the game is the leveling process. If it isn't "fun" they the developers are doing something extremely wrong.

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Originally Posted by reyre

Explain this to me because perhaps i misunderstood somenthing, you are saying that you should not use past experiences as a basis to predict future outcomes, at least not use them as ENOUGH proof to acertain the future of anything, yet you use the gordias as reason enough to make the point that feedback can impact negatively this expact...dont you see the contradiction there?
If you can use past experiences as evidence or proof of anything then so can others.

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If I claim that the door can be opened, I just have to succeed at opening it once to demonstrate that the claim is right.
If I claim that the door cannot be opened and make the prediction that it never will be, trying to open it once is definitly not enough. Especially if I managed to open it before (hello Heavensward).

So, if you don't understand that the process of proving that something can happen and the process of proving that something cannot happen require a completly different approach and set of proofs, then I don't know what to tell you. That's the basis of the scientific methodology and logic to prove and disprove stuff.

All "proofs" or examples are not equal. I don't know why you'd think they are.
As I said, nothing would ever change if past examples were enough to show what will (or won't, in this case) happen. Yet, the reality is very different.

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Originally Posted by De-vain

Hey Square Enix,

Healers are just not fun anymore. Shouldn't a game feel fun for the players and not exhausting? Nobody is happy with spamming one damage skill for ever in most of the content. Sure there are fights where you need to heal more but that's a very low percentage of content. I heard many opinions from healer mains and many of them are considering to change to tank or dps. Why? Because healer gameplay is just boring. Do square enix know that the queues will be extremely long for tanks and dps, when many healers are changing mains. And I don't think someone would start healing job when there is no new job and the current healers gameplay is to spam one button. Please think about how you are treating healers in this game and what exactly the reason is to simplify them to a level where it is no more fun to play. We are not dumb. We want to learn a job and have fun be getting better in it. Healers are doomed.

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Dear people type person, I know this may come as something of a shock but nothing warrants an official response aside from these are the changes for right now. They will very likely be changed over the lifetime of the expansion. and if queues take too long there's the trust system.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

1. WHM is basically the same
2. AST has a different card system but dps is absolutly the same
3. SCH got nerfed... yes... if its no fun at lvl 80, then complain and/or switch jobs.
4. ALL JOBS ARE BORING IN LOW LVL CONTENT! Its nothing new with healers in Shb. Most Jobs are boring till 60 atm and with increased lvl cap its probably getting worse.


OMG can we please play the jobs first and complain later?
Sch got Miasma II back after a month in SB because we actually played the job and then gave feedback.

And i assume im getting called a "white knight" soon, so we need a word for "opposite white knight"... someone who always sees and complains about the worst possible outcome before even trying it...

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I so agree with this. Whats the point of not having played the class yourself and only seeing some tool tips?
Everyone is acting like they already played lvl 80 SCH/SCH in the harder content ShB can offer and im asking,how?
Maining doesnt mean anything. You have more insight cause u main it? sure. but did u play lvl 80 healer? no

If you get called White Knight for being logical idk what to say lmao

Forums: Waaahh waah I don't wanna eat any noodles! They look gross so ofc they taste gross!!!

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Originally Posted by Laphael

It´s almost funny.

Fuuuu they didn´t change WHM enough
Fuuuu they canged SCH to much
Fuuuu they changed AST

like what? XD

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Late to the party but you know there's a difference between not making a needed change and then them making the exact opposite change? You can't really play the "we want change...We don't want change" card because we never asked for "change" we asked for a "specific change" and instead got an "opposite change"

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Originally Posted by Gula

Forums: Waaahh waah I don't wanna eat any noodles! They look gross so ofc they taste gross!!!

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Also forums: Look you can't know that this 8 month old carton of milk is bad you haven't had a drink yet!

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Also forums: Look you can't know that this 8 month old carton of milk is bad you haven't had a drink yet!

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Also forums: Stormblood = Shadowbringers because reasons!

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Also forums: Look you can't know that this 8 month old carton of milk is bad you haven't had a drink yet!

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But you only saw the Carton of milk from the outside.
Was it in the fridge with constant temperature all the time?
Is it fresh milk or long life milk?
You don´t have enough information until you opened it and at least check the odor first. "wait til 80"

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Also forums: Stormblood = Shadowbringers because reasons!

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Also forums: Heavensward lessons + Stormblood lessons = logical Shadowbringers conclusions based on the data provided.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

But you only saw the Carton of milk from the outside.
Was it in the fridge with constant temperature all the time?
Is it fresh milk or long life milk?
You don´t have enough information until you opened it and at least check the odor first. "wait til 80"

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And the outside of the carton shows the expiration date (i.e. the pre-patch notes we've gotten), for this example 8 months expired.

As I said above, it's ok to make logical conclusions based on provided data.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

But you only saw the Carton of milk from the outside.
Was it in the fridge with constant temperature all the time?
Is it fresh milk or long life milk?
You don´t have enough information until you opened it and at least check the odor first. "wait til 80"

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A lot of us have enough experience playing and theorycrafting to know how the changes will affect us. You don't have to be a genius to see that ruin II is only good for double weaving. Or to put the number of weaving opportunities up against the number of weaves to see that your new gameplay is going to have a lot of clipping. Hell in the case of SCH if you want to know what healing downtime play is going to be like you don't even have to wait or even guess, you can grab a WHM right now and test it for yourself.
Not to mention E3 has allowed some to test the changes.

The whole "wait until ShB comes out to complain" followed by "wait until you're 80", then "wait until the raid tier comes out" etc.. was already done to death during SB and here we are 2 years later with broken lilies on WHM..... If anything we didn't complain enough, clearly.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Also forums: Heavensward lessons + Stormblood lessons = logical Shadowbringers conclusions based on the data provided.

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Is that why when Financial Analysts try to predict the future from past data we call it "logical conclusions", rather than speculation?

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Originally Posted by EaMett

A lot of us have enough experience playing and theorycrafting to know how the changes will affect us. You don't have to be a genius to see that ruin II is only good for double weaving. Or to put the number of weaving opportunities up against the number of weaves to see that your new gameplay is going to have a lot of clipping. Hell in the case of SCH if you want to know what healing downtime play is going to be like you don't even have to wait or even guess, you can grab a WHM right now and test it for yourself.
Not to mention E3 has allowed some to test the changes.

The whole "wait until ShB comes out to complain" followed by "wait until you're 80", then "wait until the raid tier comes out" etc.. was already done to death during SB and here we are 2 years later with broken lilies on WHM..... If anything we didn't complain enough, clearly.

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I enjoy WHM.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

If I claim that the door can be opened, I just have to succeed at opening it once to demonstrate that the claim is right.
If I claim that the door cannot be opened and make the prediction that it never will be, trying to open it once is definitly not enough. Especially if I managed to open it before (hello Heavensward).

So, if you don't understand that the process of proving that something can happen and the process of proving that something cannot happen require a completly different approach and set of proofs, then I don't know what to tell you. That's the basis of the scientific methodology and logic to prove and disprove stuff.

All "proofs" or examples are not equal. I don't know why you'd think they are.
As I said, nothing would ever change if past examples were enough to show what will (or won't, in this case) happen. Yet, the reality is very different.

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True, all "proofs" are not equal.
But there are several problems with your statment, for starters arent you doing a non sequitur? Unless i am wrong, you are assuming that the feedback will/can have the same negative effect. Besides arent you using a similar value to decide that because the feedback lead to a negative result, it will/can happen again? Also it seems that you are using a false equivalence to support your claim.

You are making the same proposition as the others are making "because it happend once, it might happen again", or are you not? Otherwise why bring gordias as an example? It seems that both sides are falling into the slippery slope, you both are assuming that once you do some acction the "worst" case scenario will happen or in this case negative inpact on the game one way or the other. None of you have enough data yet you both are generalizing that is a faulty generalization. But enough the point is as you said "...nothing would ever change if past examples were enough to show what will (or won't, in this case) happen."(you wrote the exact same thing i wrote)if so why are you using gordias (somenthing in the past) to claim that somenthing will/can happen?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I never said I was in favour of the way cards have been reworked, quite the opposite.
But from a practical standpoint, AST DPS hasn't taken a hit, and APM hasn't changed too drastically.
So this whole "healers will have nothing to do, SE thinks healers should just heal" idea is nonsense.
We're not doing less things besides healing, we're just doing different, perhaps less interesting things.

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While others have put this in quote marks several times, that's rarely if ever seemed to have been the actual sentiment.

More often the sentiment is more closely that healing is already underwhelming, making each further blow -- however small it may be -- disproportionate painful, since we know that what is taken in terms of complexity or depth is not likely ever to be given back and there has only ever been one direction to these style of changes.
It's been a matter of expecting expansion, not hollowing, from our expansions and being reasonably displeased when we see at least as much of the latter as the prior. And I don't see what's at all unreasonable about that.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Also forums: Heavensward lessons + Stormblood lessons = logical Shadowbringers conclusions based on the data provided.



And the outside of the carton shows the expiration date (i.e. the pre-patch notes we've gotten), for this example 8 months expired.

As I said above, it's ok to make logical conclusions based on provided data.

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Lesson that are quite frankly ignoring recent interviews from Yoshida. Interviews that state they wanted healers to do more healing than what has been transpiring in the game. Which if they actually achieved this then the changes make sense. Only time will tell as we have yet to play the content. The only proof we have right now are the media videos of healers letting players die a lot as they cast dps spells. Which could indicate that there is more damage floating about the dungeons. We won’t know until we try it.

I get the feeling of loss. I love casting dot classes and my summoner has changed a ton from being dot centric and now my scholar too. It sucks, but it also doesn’t mean the changes are not fun. We have to wait and see.

Furthermore, we already know they will not listen to the feedback until the playerbase tries the content. That has been their m.o. from the start.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Interviews that state they wanted healers to do more healing than what has been transpiring in the game. Which if they actually achieved this then the changes make sense. Only time will tell as we have yet to play the content. .

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Except they haven't. The two data points we have, the lvl 73 dungeon and the Titania trial after show us that the "more healing" goal they're trying to achieve isn't happening. Players are healing in similar fashion to what's live currently.

If anything, the Titania trial shows us that the DPS check is too much which would be helped by the healers doing more damage. Damage that was taken away from us.

Regarding your comment on "fun"

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Originally Posted by Feidam

It sucks, but it also doesn’t mean the changes are not fun.

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One 30 second dot and one filler spell until mob is dead (two total damage buttons) from level 2 to level 80 is not my definition of "fun".

The problem seems to be that the class developer team of four people quite obviously only have a vague idea about how healers work in theory, and they made healer changes for ShB based on that.

Most healers are upset by these changes, because they know the changes are awful, based on the fact that they have intimate knowledge on how healing works in practice in all content.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

Most healers are upset by these changes, because they know the changes are awful, based on the fact that they have intimate knowledge on how healing works in practice in all content.

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All content, except the content that the developer team is designing right now.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

All content, except the content that the developer team is designing right now.

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That is very true, but what about the rest of the content? how will it impact there? since the mayority of the content is not the expac

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

All content, except the content that the developer team is designing right now.

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That's a poor strawman and you know it.

If healing is pure agony in all casual content you do daily, and only fun in latest Savage/EX/Ultimate that you do a few times a week, it's bad design.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

All content, except the content that the developer team is designing right now.

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Content that they have present at two separate occasions (Media tour and E3) and veteran healers have said weren't different from what we have now. >w>

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Originally Posted by EaMett

A lot of us have enough experience playing and theorycrafting to know how the changes will affect us. You don't have to be a genius to see that ruin II is only good for double weaving. Or to put the number of weaving opportunities up against the number of weaves to see that your new gameplay is going to have a lot of clipping. Hell in the case of SCH if you want to know what healing downtime play is going to be like you don't even have to wait or even guess, you can grab a WHM right now and test it for yourself.
Not to mention E3 has allowed some to test the changes.

The whole "wait until ShB comes out to complain" followed by "wait until you're 80", then "wait until the raid tier comes out" etc.. was already done to death during SB and here we are 2 years later with broken lilies on WHM..... If anything we didn't complain enough, clearly.

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No, your complaints were just that for the most part complaints. Only a small handful of people provided meaningful feedback which got lost amidst the THIS SUCKS FIX IT rants of everyone else. The rest just did what the current group of people are doing now. Make fifty different threads all Complaining like children that their toy is broken and demanding a replacement post haste. To use the words of one of your own "Get rid of that sense of entitlement."

It's pretty cut and dry you either are going to heal because you love healing or you're not because you want it to be more "exciting" If the former keep healing and adapt to the changes if the latter then by all means quit healing and move onto something different. But whatever you all decide just do it and stop whinging every 6 hours.

P.S. I fully expect to banned for this post but seriously at this point it's probably a good thing I've never seen a more trite,self entitled, and jaded group of people than the Healers on this forum who can't even be bothered to put intelligible feedback in once they have ALL THE DATA.

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Originally Posted by reyre

That is very true, but what about the rest of the content? how will it impact there? since the mayority of the content is not the expac

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The same way Stormblood impacted Heavensward content. I do not see 100 posts a day saying that Alexander Normal is too easy/boring right now.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

I enjoy WHM.

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Setting aside the fact WHMs have been complaining about the clipping and lack of weaving for ages AND have had a broken gauge all expansion. Your opinion is fine and you have WHM to fill your needs and desires. The rest of us no longer have any options and are naturally unhappy with getting boxed like this.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

The same way Stormblood impacted Heavensward content. I do not see 100 posts a day saying that Alexander Normal is too easy/boring right now.

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The question is, how many people are doing alex normal? otherwise that is kind of a pointless statement, since that is just a small part of the content.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

If healing is pure agony in all casual content you do daily, and only fun in latest Savage/EX/Ultimate that you do a few times a week, it's bad design.

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I have had ppl in this forum basically tell me, that casual opinion doesn´t count at all and that only Savage/EX/Ultimate matters. Also it was about the same topic (healer changes).

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Originally Posted by reyre

The question is, how many people are doing alex normal? otherwise that is kind of a pointless statement, since that is just a small part of the content.

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Replace "Alexander Normal" with your choice of outdated content.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Replace "Alexander Normal" with your choice of outdated content.

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So not only you dont get the point, but also adress a bigger issue "outdated content" for whom? the new players? the players that want to level up their clases with other than PotD or HoH? Players that do roulette? The simple fact that you consider content not 70-80 "oudated content" is an issue on itself, because the game is not only 70-80 despite what you might belive, so im going to take a stab in the dark here and say that by oudated content you mean content that doesnt get played as much? you mean from 1-70? that seems to be apretty big chunk of "oudated content"

What gets me is why many people seem to think they'll suddenly backtrack on launch like they don't have a million other things to balance at once. Yoshida still has interviews and Expos, as well as the Live Letter today, and programmers never. stop. programming. Something from ARR to HW probably is acting up and needs looking at as well as the Shad stuff.

Calm. Down. Try your veggies, actually try them instead of spitting on the table in anticipation.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

No, your complaints were just that for the most part complaints. Only a small handful of people provided meaningful feedback which got lost amidst the THIS SUCKS FIX IT rants of everyone else. The rest just did what the current group of people are doing now. Make fifty different threads all Complaining like children that their toy is broken and demanding a replacement post haste. To use the words of one of your own "Get rid of that sense of entitlement."

It's pretty cut and dry you either are going to heal because you love healing or you're not because you want it to be more "exciting" If the former keep healing and adapt to the changes if the latter then by all means quit healing and move onto something different. But whatever you all decide just do it and stop whinging every 6 hours.

P.S. I fully expect to banned for this post but seriously at this point it's probably a good thing I've never seen a more trite,self entitled, and jaded group of people than the Healers on this forum who can't even be bothered to put intelligible feedback in once they have ALL THE DATA.

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I'm not going to go into this again, but feedback is feedback. Doesn't matter what kind it is. There are plenty of ressources out there on how to treat feedback, how to weigh it, what impact it has on your company, how many people are "silent" and what portion of your customer base the actual vocal community represents. A bunch of metrics and so forth. Etc..
Bottom line is making "fifty different threads all Complaining like children that their toy is broken and demanding a replacement post haste" is valid no matter how much it rubs you the wrong way.
And if you can't tell what changes (or lack of) the forums are upset about and why they are, then I don't know what to say.

When SB media tour info came out it was obvious from all the whining that Lilies wouldn't work because they required GCD healing and only sped up cooldowns that you saved for mechanics anyways. Anyone who couldn't see that probably shouldn't work in customer feedback.
It was equally clear over the past 2 years that WHM were not satisfied with the pDPS they had and were either expecting a boost or some rDPS options (and to some extent fix the clunkiness of the kit). Yet they still ignored that and took it even further down a notch by complying SCH to that model.

And yeah we're all here unhappy because we like healing. But "healing" isn't just that. It's what the design team decides it is. There are many flavors of healing and the game design in FF14 has promoted optimization through downtime. That was THEIR doing, and it's not something they can just move out of after 3 expansions of content.
Part of the reason has been that they want almost all aspects of the game to be accessible to many (including lower) tiers of skill. They accomplished this through low healing requirements for most content and this is a great idea (I truly believe it's part of the reason why FF14 has done so well). But it also means that you need to provide more downtime options for your design to be FUN.
Gamedesign 101 - gameplay player expression : offer risk/reward and optimization options (in a nutshell). They stripped both on SCH and we're rightfully complaining, I don't see what part of that is "entitled". It's customer feedback no matter how passionate it is.

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Originally Posted by reyre

So not only you dont get the point, but also adress a bigger issue "outdated content" for whom? the new players? the players that want to level up their clases with other than PotD or HoH? Players that do roulette? The simple fact that you consider content not 70-80 "oudated content" is an issue on itself, because the game is not only 70-80 despite what you might belive, so im going to take a stab in the dark here and say that by oudated content you mean content that doesnt get played as much? you mean from 1-70? that seems to be apretty big chunk of "oudated content"

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That's because IT IS. Look at Raid Tiers for example. People can still go back to the previous Savage Tier and run it, but it's easier because of the iLv difference or level difference. There's also the fact that with certain content it was built with a particular game build in mind. For instance, Coil was made with the ARR build in mind and with the changes coming, it may change how it is approached significantly on implementation of Shadowbringers due to the big healer rework and some mechanics might not resolve as they should since it was made with Lv 50 and an iLv Cap of 123 in mind.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Except they haven't. The two data points we have, the lvl 73 dungeon and the Titania trial after show us that the "more healing" goal they're trying to achieve isn't happening. Players are healing in similar fashion to what's live currently.

If anything, the Titania trial shows us that the DPS check is too much which would be helped by the healers doing more damage. Damage that was taken away from us.

Regarding your comment on "fun"



One 30 second dot and one filler spell until mob is dead (two total damage buttons) from level 2 to level 80 is not my definition of "fun".

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The difference here I’m seeing compared to you is healers dpsing and dps dieing. So healers need to heal more in theory. Dps needing to meet the dps check appears to be idea again. Again you are focused solely on the dps you want and not what you might have to be doing on the healing side. But they are clearly attempting to define the roles again.

I fully admit they could have missed the mark, however I am not going to be stomping my feet in a temper tantrum until I can supply feedback based on current play. At the end of day if you really want to make your point stop playing healers. That will give them a strong definitive metric. Thread after thread on the forums repeating the same thing does not accomplish anything when we know they will do nothing until the bulk of players try the content.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

That's because IT IS. Look at Raid Tiers for example. People can still go back to the previous Savage Tier and run it, but it's easier because of the iLv difference or level difference. There's also the fact that with certain content it was built with a particular game build in mind. For instance, Coil was made with the ARR build in mind and with the changes coming, it may change how it is approached significantly on implementation of Shadowbringers due to the big healer rework and some mechanics might not resolve as they should since it was made with Lv 50 and an iLv Cap of 123 in mind.

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So you are making my point for me, thanks? Like you said the content way back there was not made for how the clasess are today, very good insight. So when a new player has to go through the old DNGs i wonder how will it play out, because as you said the content is not made for how the clasess are now. But true outdated content is oudated no matter if is significantly longer than new content.