watch a guide, you are not gonna die

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

Which just takes 5 seconds to type to inform the healer if they were new.

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Why the healer specifically? In this dungeon, unlike other dooms, you stand on the glowing platform to remove the doom.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

To be fair, if you are quiet and say nothing despite not knowing how to do a mechanic, how are people supposed to know to help you?

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I'm not entirely sure why everybody is nitpicking the things that I'm saying. I'm not telling anybody to look at guides, nor am I telling people to explain mechanics. I was simply relaying my experiences. I feel a 'peace of mind' feeling by memorizing the mechanics before I even enter the dungeon. I'll gladly take 10 or 15 minutes before my queue to read up if it means a smoother run without burdening the party.

If people want to argue with me about that, then I don't know what to tell them....

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Originally Posted by TalosEscher

yeah i am, it annoys me so im talking about it in public

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Keep on digging your petty hole, OP. It’s not really helping your argument.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

"Why should i watch a guide qhen you can just tell me?"

I've seen someone talk to a mentor that way... the mentor leave btw cant blame him

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yeah but mentors are dedicated to teach people, what i see from mentors are just people wanting an extra credit from roulettes and not actually teaching anyone, how can the game allow the one system that teach new players to learn new content to not work and force on people that have nothing to do with it to be forced to teach new players, and if they refuse they are being disrespectful and petty for not wanting to teach people about content that is not savage?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Keep on digging your petty hole, OP. It’s not really helping your argument.

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i dont care, if i get people to agree with me im happy

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Originally Posted by TalosEscher

i dont care, if i get people to agree with me im happy

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Clearly, there are people who don’t agree that players should watch guides for dungeons. I’ve never watched a guide for anything below a Savage level. Because they aren’t necessary.

If someone asks about a dungeon mechanic, take 10 seconds out of your day to tell them how it’s done. I promise you it’s not hard. And it’s far more helpful than demanding they watch a 10 minute guide for something you can explain in 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

I'm not entirely sure why everybody is nitpicking the things that I'm saying. I'm not telling anybody to look at guides, nor am I telling people to explain mechanics. I was simply relaying my experiences. I feel a 'peace of mind' feeling by memorizing the mechanics before I even enter the dungeon. I'll gladly take 10 or 15 minutes before my queue to read up if it means a smoother run without burdening the party.

If people want to argue with me about that, then I don't know what to tell them....

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I’m not arguing with anything. If you want to watch a guide for a dungeon, you do you. Can’t stop you.

I’m just pointing out, if you stay quiet, how would you expect people to provide you any help that you may need? Especially since you made note to point out “what if no one bothered to explain it to me”. Consider that.

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

I'm not entirely sure why everybody is nitpicking the things that I'm saying. I'm not telling anybody to look at guides, nor am I telling people to explain mechanics. I was simply relaying my experiences. I feel a 'peace of mind' feeling by memorizing the mechanics before I even enter the dungeon. I'll gladly take 10 or 15 minutes before my queue to read up if it means a smoother run without burdening the party.

If people want to argue with me about that, then I don't know what to tell them....

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you are fine, you are being a good person to focusing on efficiency and not giving other people problem over things you can do something about, you are the type of person we need, those that care.

If you're going to be completely unreasonable with this demand, then just stick with your friends and PF groups where you can force them to watch youtube guides. You will be happier, and the random folk in DF won't have to deal with you.

Everyone wins!

[QUOTE=HyoMinPark;4984684]Clearly, there are people who don’t agree that players should watch guides for dungeons. I’ve never watched a guide for anything below a Savage level. Because they aren’t necessary.


but there are people that do, and if its not necessary for non savage content why do people annoy others asking for help, when they arent mentors or anything? if its so irrelevant they shouldnt ask for help anyway

I don't expect people to watch guides.
I will not watch guides.

Guides do not even help me since i'm learning by doing.

I try to explain the most important mechanics in a dungeon or normal trial.
Extreme i go into learning parties.

In farmparties, you should not be if you don't know.


The end

Dungeons are designed in such a way that the mechanics are either obvious or that you'll figure them out really quickly, even if it takes 1 death to think: "oh, that's how it works". They often introduce mechanics to you one at a time, before putting them all together in sequence to test if you figured them all out. You don't need a guide, but having a mechanic explained that is less obvious and more deadly may save you from dying unnecesarily.

I choose to just go through a dungeon and not explain anything unless asked, so that they can do it blind if they wish. If they repeatedly mess up a crucial mechanic I briefly explain it after the fight so that they know for next time.

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Originally Posted by TalosEscher

but there are people that do, and if its not necessary for non savage content why do people annoy others asking for help, when they arent mentors or anything? if its so irrelevant they shouldnt ask for help anyway

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There’s this thing called “learning”—some of the players you encounter are new players that aren’t familiar with certain mechanics. If they ask for clarification—or if they ask “anything of note I should watch out for”—that is them trying to learn. Why not help them by telling them what they have to look out for? Is that hard? I suppose so.

Dungeons aren’t Savage where a mistake can easily lead to a snowball into a wipe. If you were discussing Savage, I would be far more sympathetic with your ranting. But you’re discussing dungeons. Easy content or not, why are you trying to discourage people from asking for help?

It’s no wonder so many new players feel hesitant to ask for help when they’re met with players like yourself who want to shirk questions with “Watch a YouTube video”.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

There’s this thing called “learning”—some of the players you encounter are new players that aren’t familiar with certain mechanics. If they ask for clarification—or if they ask “anything of note I should watch out for”—that is them trying to learn. Why not help them by telling them what they have to look out for? Is that hard? I suppose so.

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Literally the first thing i do when i see new people at Nidhogg: The big circle with arrows is a stack marker, go there and STAY stacked please!!
But yeah, i'm with you.

Learning exes blind is very fun, very interesting and there are people willing to go into learnparties to actually help.

You can even go blind into savages... if you have a STATIC that is fine with it or you find people that are fine with it, so....


Let people watch guides if they want to, let people go in blind.

somebody in a dungeon/trial "i watched a video"
me "lol you didn't need to"

You're making a big deal out of a rare exception.

People who actually want to get spoiled a fight by specifically being told in chat what to do just before the pull are really not that common. And when you do encounter them, just ignore them if you don't want to be helpful or friendly to them. Telling them to go watch or read a guide is completly useless in that situation... which is the reason why you get these negative reactions.
Again, it's better to simply say nothing rather than saying something useless that might sound provocative. Short answer: if you don't want to help or be friendly, then don't say anything.

Regardless, if you tag in DF, you're accepting that you can get matched with literally anyone and that some patience might be required. If you don't want that, go make or join a PF group with the rules that suits your needs. It's not the other way around.

Finally, if someone is playing in a way that your group finds detrimental and/or incompatible with the mindset of the majority, the votekick option is there. It completly falls under "differences in playstyle".

Fine, I'll be the one to say it. OP sounds kind of insufferable.

Some people just don't like spoilers they want the excitement like a surprise even if they have to go in cold turkey and die.

Now if you win or lose they can probably look at the guide after that but you cannot force someone to do it on the first try.

Ill watch a guide AND die, you dont control my life.

Only time you should have to watch a guide is if you're doing savage or extreme. No other fights really need that much commitment

explaining the 1 or 2 mechanics that exist in regular duties really isn't as hard as people act like it is, and takes way less time than watching a guide on something like Ghimlyt Dark.

Ex/Savage sure, watch a guide.

But how hard is it to say "stand in the glowy circle and drop the shadowaoe back and to the left" and that's a boss.

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

Some people just don't like spoilers they want the excitement like a surprise even if they have to go in cold turkey and die.

Now if you win or lose they can probably look at the guide after that but you cannot force someone to do it on the first try.

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Agreed.

To each their own, if you want to know every little thing that was discovered by someone else beforehand, you go right ahead and copy them.
For other people, the wonder and excitement of exploration and discovery still exist. And a loss is nothing more then the cost of progression.

I happen to learn much faster and more thoughtfully by diving into the deep end and figuring it out by doing it. So I've never really looked up any Extreme fights, and certainly not a dungeon because they are completely self explanatory. But not everyone is like that, so you do you Eorzeans.

On the topic of mentoring: Regardless of if I was acting as a mentor or not, I'll explain something if someone asks... that's just normal decency.

The important thing is you always do your personal best and don't purposefully slack off.

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Originally Posted by LittleChickenNugget

Fine, I'll be the one to say it. OP sounds kind of insufferable.

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I didn't want to say it...but I will neither confirm or deny thinking it.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

With DF groups, I am fine with others going in blind and I think its a rather ridiculous notion that people should have to watch a video first before going into content. If you can\\'t hang with that, make your own private groups via PF and make the guide watching a requirement.

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Preach, sister.

I honestly think this could be a issue due to a generation gap of gamers, I don't really want to use the term lazy. I've been playing MMO's and online games since 2004 and anytime I either had a question because I didn't know something or I was about to jump into any form of group content I would always either google and find my answer within minutes and/or watch a video guide to at least familiarize myself with what i was getting into. Over the years I would see countless people ask in-game the easiest questions over and over and in the time it took someone to respond to them they could have easily found the answer they were looking for themselves. This isn't in anyway a slight towards people with that mentality, I guess It's a lack of understanding it.

It has nothing to do with a generation gap, plenty of people old and young do the same thing over and over. The only difference is what type of excuse that might try to make for why they didn't do something like looking it up on google/youtube/lodestone/things like that.

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

I was speaking from my own perspective, back when I was new to that dungeon. What if I go into a dungeon and nobody bothers to explain it to me? I tend to be rather quiet, so I'm probably not going to ask the party for an explanation.

Honestly, it's just more reliable for me to Google it. That's how I choose to conduct myself. In no way do I expect you to feel the same way.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

Why the healer specifically? In this dungeon, unlike other dooms, you stand on the glowing platform to remove the doom.

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My bad, I was thinking of Wanderer's Place hard, where the doom needs to be fully healed to be removed.

It's ok to ask people to watch a guide as long as you're willing to wait. It's ok to want to go in blind. If there is no agreement, it's ok to leave.

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Originally Posted by TalosEscher

im sorry but this is a constant problem to me, people being lazy and expecting others to just give them everything they need like my time isnt worth anything

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no its not a problem. its your personal problem. theres nothing wrong with people not watching a guide. you are just being selfish. some people like to go in blind and learn from experience the way games were originally meant to be played. Asking for minor pointers is different than watching a 30 min video about mechanics.

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Originally Posted by guardin

no its not a problem. its your personal problem. theres nothing wrong with people not watching a guide. you are just being selfish. some people like to go in blind and learn from experience the way games were originally meant to be played. Asking for minor pointers is different than watching a 30 min video about mechanics.

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There are no 30 minute videos about mechanics, even late stage Savage fights are summed up in less than half that time. Hyperbole just makes your argument look weaker.

If you want to be a burden to your party needlessly that's cool but don't be mad when the vote kick gets passed.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

There are no 30 minute videos about mechanics, even late stage Savage fights are summed up in less than half that time. Hyperbole just makes your argument look weaker.

If you want to be a burden to your party needlessly that's cool but don't be mad when the vote kick gets passed.

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If it's not Extremes, Savage, or Ultimate, you don't need to watch a guide, though. It takes next to no time for someone to point out the few mechanics that one would need to look out for in a dungeon boss if someone asks for it. The fact that someone asked should be enough to get someone to help, since most people don't.

OP's entire argument is that players should watch guides for EVERY. PIECE. OF. CONTENT. Including dungeons where explaining the important things would take less time than typing into a YouTube search.


EDIT because posting limit (Can we do away with this? Seriously?):

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I have stopped doing 24mans on anything but a healer because of this very mentality.

The truth is some people are skilled enough to pick up mechanics in casual content on the fly but that doesn't mean everyone is. It's safer to suggest to everyone that they should spend a few minutes watching a guide than it is to have faith they're going to be able to keep up otherwise.

As a ps4 player I literally purchased a keyboard just to be able to explain things to people in chat specifically because I was tired of people not knowing what they were doing and wiping groups needlessly. Relying on other players to be able to explain mechanics isn't a perfect system, requesting people taking a few minutes to skim a text guide before entering new content isn't asking too much.

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I think a lot of people in this community forget that not everyone learns how to do mechanics the first time around - or that people have different learning styles. Some people can pick up what to do by watching other players do the mechanics for them (i.e., visual learners can learn from videos), but others have to learn by doing. I fall in the latter category, and I'm sure there are plenty of others that do as well. Not everyone can pick things up as quickly as you or I could either, so some need to learn some patience when dealing with players like this - if it's their first time and they're asking what they're doing wrong, I have endless amounts of patience for people like this. I'd rather someone ask me for help if they don't know what they're doing as opposed to staying silent, but people like the OP that brush off helping others with "watch a video" is one of the reasons new players have said that they don't bother to ask for help. Answering someone's question of "Is there anything important I need to know here?" with "Go watch a video" is not helpful to them; it's probably the least helpful thing you could say to someone in the midst of a piece of content. Taking 10~15 seconds to say "Yeah, watching out for Crush Helm - that's his tankbuster, so make sure to pop a CD for it" is much faster and far more helpful.


If you or OP were talking about Extremes, Savages, or Ultimates, you would have a point. People should go into that content with at least a little bit of preparation - even if they're joining learning groups. But dungeons? Normal Trials? Normal mode raids? 24-mans? These can be explained fairly quickly and even on the fly if necessary, with very few exceptions (and even those exceptions can be cleared if the newbies listen). Sure, they may screw up, but they probably would have done so even if they'd watched a guide beforehand.

If you get a player that won't listen, well, they aren't worth the effort and it's unlikely that they would have looked up a guide, anyways.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If it's not Extremes, Savage, or Ultimate, you don't need to watch a guide, though. It takes next to no time for someone to point out the few mechanics that one would need to look out for in a dungeon boss if someone asks for it. The fact that someone asked should be enough to get someone to help, since most people don't.

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I have stopped doing 24mans on anything but a healer because of this very mentality.

The truth is some people are skilled enough to pick up mechanics in casual content on the fly but that doesn't mean everyone is. It's safer to suggest to everyone that they should spend a few minutes watching a guide than it is to have faith they're going to be able to keep up otherwise.

As a ps4 player I literally purchased a keyboard just to be able to explain things to people in chat specifically because I was tired of people not knowing what they were doing and wiping groups needlessly. Relying on other players to be able to explain mechanics isn't a perfect system, requesting people taking a few minutes to skim a text guide before entering new content isn't asking too much.

1) it's a video game, people like to go through these things as new players and experiencing it first hand without the necessity to go to a guide.

2) 24 mans don't require fight knowledge to win. There's maybe 1 important group mechanic per boss, if that, and that's a line to explain. Literally nothing else required.

3) you can win in 24 mans with the vast majority of people dead, because they're a) that easy, and b) there's 0 enrage so dying doesn't even matter with regards to just winning at these fights. You can die 300 times, but if you're pulled up every time, the boss will die.

4) it's a mmo. Talking to other players is part of the genre, asking for help in groups is actually a core component of the point of the genre actually existing. Remove what little socialization that does take place to help people through content, and you may as well turn off the game, stop paying a sub for it, and go play a single player title instead.

Coming from single-player games where it's normal that you just go into a dungeon or level and "see how you go" based on your own skill, and only turn to external guides if you can't work out what you're supposed to do, the mentality of being expected to seek out all the instructions before you even try it is still very strange to me. It seems the reverse of how games should be played.

It also ruins the experience, if you have to watch a video guide to see everything happen before you actually get to play it.

Dungeon mechanics generally are simple enough that they can be explained in a line or two of text as you go through it - learning from others in your party. That's the way I'd prefer to experience it, and I'm happy to explain things to others for the same reason.

That said, some of the mechanics in this game are quite unintuitive and hard to understand until they are explained to you. But that doesn't mean the explanation is difficult to give.


On the other hand, if it's something that actually is really complex and hard to explain, then it would be useful to say "it's easier to understand if you watch a video first" but not expect that everyone should watch it in every circumstance.

I mean, I get OP's argument. "If you're going in blind but you're going to ask what the mechanics are, why not just ask Google ahead of time?"

Personal experience, given the pace of most fights/runs, I can maybe remember the major points for the first boss/phase, but after that, there's not enough retention to perfectly recall later mechanics.

Also, my time is just as valuable. I don't get to be online very much. So I think I'd rather be actively playing instead of afk looking shit up.

As usual with this topic, I say, "You have to choose your battles." You really have to determine if telling someone to go look at a guide is actually productive. If people are new to the fight, especially if they are a tank or healer, it will probably be in your best interest to let them know about just the mechanics that new players tend to die to.

I agree that if you go into a fight blind, you need to be willing and able to learn on your own, and apply your previous knowledge to the fight. Nobody should have to say, "Stay out of the bad." Guides in all honesty are the most valuable for EX trials and Savage encounters. For normal mode and 24-man, these encounters are a hell of a lot more fun going into them blind. If someone is asking for mechanics, more than likely they are also not looking for a complete rundown of the fight the way guides are done. They just want to know what's going to immediately kill them, or if there is a certain funky mechanic that really screws stuff up for others if they don't do it. It really isn't that hard to let them know what those things are.

However if a player does want a top to bottom rundown of the fight, that is where I would say, "There's guides for that."

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Originally Posted by Alaray

1) it's a video game, people like to go through these things as new players and experiencing it first hand without the necessity to go to a guide.

2) 24 mans don't require fight knowledge to win. There's maybe 1 important group mechanic per boss, if that, and that's a line to explain. Literally nothing else required.

3) you can win in 24 mans with the vast majority of people dead, because they're a) that easy, and b) there's 0 enrage so dying doesn't even matter with regards to just winning at these fights. You can die 300 times, but if you're pulled up every time, the boss will die.

4) it's a mmo. Talking to other players is part of the genre, asking for help in groups is actually a core component of the point of the genre actually existing. Remove what little socialization that does take place to help people through content, and you may as well turn off the game, stop paying a sub for it, and go play a single player title instead.

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1) I don't care what people like.

2) Cid from Orbonne says hi.

3) Cid sends another postcard from the real world to you.

4) Not everyone plays on PC or has a keyboard, typing on ps4 without a keyboard is awful.

Most players dont even know there is tons of useful news and patchnotes on the official website of the game (i am sometimes seen as a genius well informed on FF14 just by reading them). Do you really expect everyone to be able to find guides on everything elsewhere, and understand them all when they are in a foreign language they dont speak ?

Some people dont even know these kind of guides exists. Some dont want to see spoilers in them. And some others will not be bright enough to go look at them, not when they are answering "internet explorer" when you ask what kind of computer they have. FF14 is a game, a hobby, where lot of players only want to launch it, play it, close it, and that's it. They dont want to take regularly time to search tons of infos to optimize what they are doing like it was an irl job where you have to take care of your productivity.

Even the bots you have sometimes with you in the game (like Noctis in the FF15 event, or those in the last scholar job quests) are telling you how to handle mechanics. I wonder if they are gonna continue to do that in the incoming trust system, or tell you "go look at a guide !" to make it looks like they are real players XD

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

1) I don't care what people like.

2) Cid from Orbonne says hi.

3) Cid sends another postcard from the real world to you.

4) Not everyone plays on PC or has a keyboard, typing on ps4 without a keyboard is awful.

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1) That's a nice, healthy position to have in a game oriented with social aspects.

2) Cid has 1 mechanic to worry about, and that is, in fact, stand in the glowy circle. Oh, and I guess drop an AoE to the back and to the left, but I guess that's hard to explain.

3) I'm sorry you seem to struggle with a boss that can be explained in less than two sentences. Finding the link to a guide video to present to a new player would, probably, take more time than deciding to be actually helpful. *I'll iterate: the really Important, Will Kill Other People Stuff can be explained in 2 sentences. Who cares if rando james dies to crush weapon. Not like him dead on the ground will cause a wipe because you can't meet enr- oh there isn't one.

4) Plenty of people do, and just because people might not have access to a keyboard, which won't be an entire raid group... doesn't mean someone needs to watch an Orbonne Monastary guide. Thinking that's a requirement is laughable. You don't even need the entire group to do the mechanic, just six out of eight.

I'm kinda astounded your argument boils down to "it doesn't cater to me so i dont care"


Here, I'll even sum it up for you so you can copy paste it on your special PS4 Keyboard:

When he puts his swords in the arena floor, stay inside of his hit box.
When he holds his swords laterally to his body, go away from him.
When you get a big Red target marker over your head: Go to the left and run away from the AoE.
When he casts "Shadowblade" and you have a marker over your head, one goes back, other goes to the left.
When he hovers a blade over your section of the arena, move away.

Those five sentences took a shorter amount of time for me to type, than it did for me to look up "Shadowblade" to get the name of the ability. And even then, you could probably just say "follow the group" for most of those. Can also change "left" with "right" but most experiences I had was generally back and to the left. But I know it can be done the other way.

(tl;dr: follow the group, red mark run left, black mark take it to the back or to the left, stand in the glowy circle )

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

There’s this thing called “learning”—some of the players you encounter are new players that aren’t familiar with certain mechanics. If they ask for clarification—or if they ask “anything of note I should watch out for”—that is them trying to learn. Why not help them by telling them what they have to look out for? Is that hard? I suppose so.

Dungeons aren’t Savage where a mistake can easily lead to a snowball into a wipe. If you were discussing Savage, I would be far more sympathetic with your ranting. But you’re discussing dungeons. Easy content or not, why are you trying to discourage people from asking for help?

It’s no wonder so many new players feel hesitant to ask for help when they’re met with players like yourself who want to shirk questions with “Watch a YouTube video”.

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learning is fine, coming in blind is fine, even asking for help is completely fine to me, my point when i made this threat was to talk about how people react when i tell them to watch a guide, im not insulting anyone, im not even saying anything slightly rude, but if you say "watch a guide" people freak out

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

Most players dont even know there is tons of useful news and patchnotes on the official website of the game (i am sometimes seen as a genius well informed on FF14 just by reading them). Do you really expect everyone to be able to find guides on everything elsewhere, and understand them all when they are in a foreign language they dont speak ?

Some people dont even know these kind of guides exists. Some dont want to see spoilers in them. And some others will not be bright enough to go look at them, not when they are answering "internet explorer" when you ask what kind of computer they have. FF14 is a game, a hobby, where lot of players only want to launch it, play it, close it, and that's it. They dont want to take regularly time to search tons of infos to optimize what they are doing like it was an irl job where you have to take care of your productivity.

Even the bots you have sometimes with you in the game (like Noctis in the FF15 event, or those in the last scholar job quests) are telling you how to handle mechanics. I wonder if they are gonna continue to do that in the incoming trust system, or tell you "go look at a guide !" to make it looks like they are real players XD

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i know, i can make a very detailed document saying why something isnt ok and no one will listen, but im gonna at least try to stop people from being awful when faced to "watch a guide", everyone seems to think its extremely rude to say that, and its just homework dude, its not degrading

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Originally Posted by TalosEscher

learning is fine, coming in blind is fine, even asking for help is completely fine to me, my point when i made this threat was to talk about how people react when i tell them to watch a guide, im not insulting anyone, im not even saying anything slightly rude, but if you say "watch a guide" people freak out

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It's certainly not a response that will help them - so I can understand why they would find it rude. You're essentially shrugging off their question and refusing to assist them after they asked for it. I know I get particularly frustrated when I ask a question and someone refuses to answer it.