Things you DON'T want to see in Stormbringer..

- No Eureka like Content.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

No offense to you personally, but I wish people would stop using "relic" to refer to both ARR's and HW's long-term weapons.

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People use a term to refer to specific types of items.

Shocking, I know.

It's like how people refer to the items given in raids that are traded in for gear "Pages" despite them only being pages in their initial iteration in the game.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Anyone that claims ARR's relic was better to get than Eureka never got their ARR relic.

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I personally quite liked ARR's book stage to be honest. But then again, I'm a fan of Hunts in general.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

And to be frank, Eureka is MUCH less of a pain to get than even HW's Animas were.

The bottom line though, is this: Relics/Anima/Eureka weapons are never going to get easier or less time-consuming to obtain. That's the entire point of them. They are meant to be absurdly long-term goals.

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Surely these are contradictory statements?

Stating that Anima was less of a pain than Zodiac and that Eureka is less of a pain than even Anima is suggesting that literally, Relics ARE becoming easier to obtain.

Like literally that's the one thing that is being highlighted in your post is how much EASIER it has been to obtain Relics while current throughout their iterations. (This is also something that gets brought up by many people who like Eureka's weapon, often with statements that they never got previous Relics but got Eureka's because it was much easier and/or faster to obtain)

Also, how is this point relevant to the post you quoted? Are they saying they're unhappy with how "Difficult" the Eureka weapon is to get?

Or are they saying that they actually preferred the more painful to obtain previous Relic system because it offers more interesting gameplay differences than the mind numbing tedium of Eureka grinds?

Since personally, I'm a fan of the latter too. I prefer going back through otherwise completely dead content and more annoying/difficult and long grinds for Relics compared to spamming FATE Trains or abusing OP Logos actions while mashing my face on my keyboard in Eureka over the course of a couple of weeks (Which some people have stated they have been able to grind out Eureka weapons in such a timeframe of 2-3 weeks, sometimes people state they have gotten multiple Eureka weapons in a similar timeframe)

Eureka was just the worst parts of previous relics crammed into a series of instances.

Cognitive dissonance is real.

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Originally Posted by Bonbori

Well... It won't "turn out" to be the case because we already know she is. Maybe not intentionally but it's because she and Zodiark exist in the state they do that the planet is so messed up. Whatever way it happens, they both ultimately have to go for things to get fixed. Not all Primals are evil either but that doesn't matter when their existence is an evil.

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That's not what "evil" means. She might be physically having a bad effect on the planet, but "evil" (as I would understand it) requires intent - and She has not shown it.

Thus far she has been portrayed as a loving mother-goddess who wants the best for Her children. If such a being is aware that Her existence itself is a threat to those children, would She not choose to willingly fade away?

Or perhaps that is still the case, but She needs to deal with Zodiark (whether destroying or perhaps rejoining with Him) before She can be sure the world will be safer without Her.



Some people suggest that She might be outright lying from the start, and secretly does have evil intent, but I don't want to see that happen. I'm tired of that plot - it plays out in too many games already.

There are almost certainly revelations to be had about Her exact nature and the details of the split with Zodiark, but I want to see it happen without simply throwing away everything She has said to us so far.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Surely these are contradictory statements?

Stating that Anima was less of a pain than Zodiac and that Eureka is less of a pain than even Anima is suggesting that literally, Relics ARE becoming easier to obtain.

Like literally that's the one thing that is being highlighted in your post is how much EASIER it has been to obtain Relics while current throughout their iterations. (This is also something that gets brought up by many people who like Eureka's weapon, often with statements that they never got previous Relics but got Eureka's because it was much easier and/or faster to obtain)

Also, how is this point relevant to the post you quoted? Are they saying they're unhappy with how "Difficult" the Eureka weapon is to get?

Or are they saying that they actually preferred the more painful to obtain previous Relic system because it offers more interesting gameplay differences than the mind numbing tedium of Eureka grinds?

Since personally, I'm a fan of the latter too. I prefer going back through otherwise completely dead content and more annoying/difficult and long grinds for Relics compared to spamming FATE Trains or abusing OP Logos actions while mashing my face on my keyboard in Eureka over the course of a couple of weeks (Which some people have stated they have been able to grind out Eureka weapons in such a timeframe of 2-3 weeks, sometimes people state they have gotten multiple Eureka weapons in a similar timeframe)

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Nope. I said easier/time-consuming. There's a difference between difficulty and frustration level. The difficulty/time-consuming aspect of relic/anima/Eureka weapons will never change. They all take roughly the same amount of time overall to acquire. The entire point is that they are absurdly long-term goals.

However, Eureka is less of a pain than Anima is less of a pain than Zodiac. Meaning the method was less frustrating, even if they take about the same amount of time investment for all three. Granted, this is somewhat subjective, as there will always be a handful of people that prefer one over the other, but is a generalization based on frequency of statements in social media.


EDIT: For example, there is very little difference between spamming the same dungeons over and over or the same trials over and over than killing creatures over and over. However, at least with Eureka, there is a bit more variety of content that has to be killed.

- tenacity/tank stats being useless again
- piercing, slashing debuffs still being a thing
- tank accessories being undesirable
- tataru
- crafting gear being so powerful from the begining of the raid tiers.
- instanced access problems

Edit:
- ignore feedback from jobs that need help

More dps jobs over tank and healer :)
But joking aside i would like Relic outside of Eureka and actually implemented earlier and not late like they did in Stormblood.
I just want 5.0 to be exciting and not lackluster

-Boring limited jobs.

-Raids being modeled exactly like trials

-Expert roulette being easier than leveling and 50/60 roulette combined.

-Odd patch 1 dgn limit

-Forced silly fetch quests for 24man or even msq (see sig for reference on aware SE is on that).

-Throwing another at-a-cost retainer to stave off the inventory problem instead of implementing smart QoLs about it.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

The bottom line though, is this: Relics/Anima/Eureka weapons are never going to get easier or less time-consuming to obtain. That's the entire point of them. They are meant to be absurdly long-term goals.

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Never said they should be. I said I don't want to see them in Eureka. If they want to make Eureka an option, then fine. But give me other things I can also do. Riding an NM Train gets fairly monotonous; I enjoyed the HW relic because I at least had different stuff to do. Not to mention, it didn't kill older content.

And sorry, but I'm just going to call them relics because that what I call them. I'm not going to play a semantics game with them.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

EDIT: For example, there is very little difference between spamming the same dungeons over and over or the same trials over and over than killing creatures over and over. However, at least with Eureka, there is a bit more variety of content that has to be killed.

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I fail to see the difference between killing NMs and killing bosses in a dungeon. The only difference is you have a mess of up to 144 people culling things like adds and AOEs compared to just 4/8/24 people that don't cull adds/AOEs.

Eureka literally had all the same stuff previous relics did with a different coat of paint - FATEs farming (NMs), Tomestone grinds (crystals), light farming... it's not revolutionary content. You just do it AFK 75% of the time in a single instance compared to queueing into things like dungeons, trials, or 24-mans.



But back on topic - Things I DON'T want to see:

- Eureka being the ONLY option for Relics; give me options.
- No RNG relic stats; I would much prefer to grind light to fill chosen stats, even if it was a slower process.
- Release the relic earlier; don't delay it again like it was in Stormblood.

A non-Eureka one I forgot:
- Make Savage a bit more challenging. Start it off with Creator level, and then work your way to Midas levels again by the end of Shadowbringers. No, I'm not asking for Gordias; I just want it to be harder. No more Alte Roites, Catastrophes, or Chadarnook dummy fights.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That's not what "evil" means. She might be physically having a bad effect on the planet, but "evil" (as I would understand it) requires intent - and She has not shown it.

Thus far she has been portrayed as a loving mother-goddess who wants the best for Her children. If such a being is aware that Her existence itself is a threat to those children, would She not choose to willingly fade away?

Or perhaps that is still the case, but She needs to deal with Zodiark (whether destroying or perhaps rejoining with Him) before She can be sure the world will be safer without Her.



Some people suggest that She might be outright lying from the start, and secretly does have evil intent, but I don't want to see that happen. I'm tired of that plot - it plays out in too many games already.

There are almost certainly revelations to be had about Her exact nature and the details of the split with Zodiark, but I want to see it happen without simply throwing away everything She has said to us so far.

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I expect it to be a case of Blue and Orange Morality, if anything. We mere mortals can barely understand the point of view of dragons, never mind gods.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

No offense to you personally, but I wish people would stop using "relic" to refer to both ARR's and HW's long-term weapons.

ARR's was "relic", but more specifically it was "Zodiac".
HW's was "Anima".

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As far as I know, a class specific quest earned weapon started being called a "Relic" back in EQ1 in like 2001-2004, then that became the standard term after that.
Relic the term by itself simply refers to an old and potentially valuable/storied/relished item, much in the way we call all the job specific armors Artifact, even tho a good chunk of them aren't Artifacts.

(TLDR yes I know EQ1 released back in 2001, but as far as i know Relic Weapons were added a few expansions in)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Some people suggest that She might be outright lying from the start, and secretly does have evil intent, but I don't want to see that happen. I'm tired of that plot - it plays out in too many games already.

There are almost certainly revelations to be had about Her exact nature and the details of the split with Zodiark, but I want to see it happen without simply throwing away everything She has said to us so far.

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I don't think that they can make Hydaelyn evil. Secretly or otherwise.

Since if she's secretly evil, then Zodiark and the Ascians wouldn't be actively trying to bring down the WoL (Hydaelyn's chosen) because it would suggest that if they facilitated her, then their goal would be achieved (Rejoining of worlds and the merging of Zodiark once again)

Which would not only mean that they'd have to retcon literally everything about Hydaelyn, but also everything about the Ascians too in order to make her evil.

Meanwhile, a much more plausible reasoning for the way she's interacting and that feeling of holding back some information, is something like how much we're harming her via using the Blessing of Light to face off against all these tough enemies like Zenos, Seiryu, like eleventy billion Ascians, Nidhogg (Twice) etc.

Which was hinted at way back in ARR around the time we met Midgardsormr and had the blessing taken away by him to prove our worth (Which we had to do because Hydaelyn was not strong enough to just hand out Blessings all willy nilly)

On another note, I think it'd be super cool if in ShB when we have to become Warriors of Darkness, we end up getting to speak to Papa Zody, where he gives his side of the story (Giving more revelations about the split from someone who's more willing to expose issues with the split - Such as potentially the fact that in order for the shards to survive without the floods of light/dark that it would involve the death of both Zodiark and Hydaelyn)

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

As far as I know, a class specific quest earned weapon started being called a "Relic" back in EQ1 in like 2001-2004, then that became the standard term after that.
Relic the term by itself simply refers to an old and potentially valuable/storied/relished item, much in the way we call all the job specific armors Artifact, even tho a good chunk of them aren't Artifacts.

(TLDR yes I know EQ1 released back in 2001, but as far as i know Relic Weapons were added a few expansions in)

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I believe it's more due to the fact that the first stage of the Zodiac weapon (The first of these kinds of weapons) was Relic weapons. Rather than the influence of other games (Such as one might call it an "Epic" weapon referencing purple items from WoW or "Artifact" from WoW's Legion expansion with weapons that were upgraded throughout the expansion)

Players tend to just latch on to the first iteration within this game for terminology. Such as how "PotD" refers to both HoH and PotD content. How people refer to the future Exploration Mission content in 5.0 "Eureka" content (As everyone wants to keep Diadem a distant memory) etc.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Meanwhile, a much more plausible reasoning for the way she's interacting and that feeling of holding back some information, is something like how much we're harming her via using the Blessing of Light to face off against all these tough enemies like Zenos, Seiryu, like eleventy billion Ascians, Nidhogg (Twice) etc.

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We never used the Blessing of Light against Nidhogg. The first time, Estinien used Nidhogg's eye to weaken him, and the second time, we had Hraesvelgr's eye.

Actually, I think the only time we directly weaponize the Blessing of Light is against Ultima Weapon and Lahabrea. We explicitly don't have it against Nabriales (he's able to enter the Rising Stones and capture Minfilia because the Blessing was sealed by Midgardsormr), and we spend most of Heavensward re-earning it. The Blade of Light used against Igheyorm is powered by Nidhogg's eye. It might just be more of a passive buff, but Ysayle mentions that the WoL fights harder than usual against Ravana, when the Blessing is still mostly sealed, so it's kind of ambiguous.

-Relics like ARR/HW/SB :p

A relic is grind. Ok. But... are we obliged to see it locked that way behind walls and RNG as it is?

Books was not a bad idea but... Khloe or ARR relic book are the same problem : forced content. Challenge log or roulette are not that bad as alternative. Easier content could still give light even if it is less. Roulette is already supposed to lead to random raid/dungeon. Doing roulette could be a slow but possible way do do it (and have somewhat -from my point of view- more meaning).

The real point is here : the problem is not griding, it is "forced/locked content".

Atma and relic behind Eureka are the worst to me.

Relic is supposed to be the final weapon both the one with which we will fight and the one with which we grew. Wouldn't a relic have more meaning if we can start it at 70 and grow with it through our fights? Relic behind Eureka rather than MSQ/roulettes, isn't that weird?

Couldn't be a way of weapon fusion (after all we will use several weapons)?

NB : These are juste afterthoughts

- Eureka.
- "I"m a traitor but I'm not" cliché again.
- Alphinaud
- Eureka
- Limited job
- Tataru crying
- Dead vilain/ally but not dead cliché
- Yes, yes or yes dialogue choice
- Raid that are trial
- EUREKA

Protect. It's a boring ability and absolutely pointless beyond the first press in an instance.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

No offense to you personally, but I wish people would stop using "relic" to refer to both ARR's and HW's long-term weapons.

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....But, that's what they are.

https://i.gifer.com/ODwC.gif

I don't want to eureka ever again.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

We never used the Blessing of Light against Nidhogg. The first time, Estinien used Nidhogg's eye to weaken him, and the second time, we had Hraesvelgr's eye.

Actually, I think the only time we directly weaponize the Blessing of Light is against Ultima Weapon and Lahabrea. We explicitly don't have it against Nabriales (he's able to enter the Rising Stones and capture Minfilia because the Blessing was sealed by Midgardsormr), and we spend most of Heavensward re-earning it. The Blade of Light used against Igheyorm is powered by Nidhogg's eye. It might just be more of a passive buff, but Ysayle mentions that the WoL fights harder than usual against Ravana, when the Blessing is still mostly sealed, so it's kind of ambiguous.

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We only weaponize the Blessing of Light on specific occasions, the rest of the time it's being used as literal Plot Armour to make us not get killed when we say, take a Nidhogg blast to the face or get blasted by an Ascian Prime, or duel with Zenos and lose. Twice.

The blessing is mostly about making us not dead, while our natural strength allows us to defeat powerful foes (Such as how we toppled the Primals to get the blessing in the first place) - This along with some of the defensive benefits of the Echo (Such as the immunity to being Tempered by Primals) lets us do all the heroics we do.

No more enochian style stuff for blackmages

No more painfull jorney to relic...like ARR one.

No more limited jobs, pls make blu playable like other jobs.

No more "NO SKIPPING" Scenery

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Protect. It's a boring ability and absolutely pointless beyond the first press in an instance.

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Thats right!! Bring us Protega!! Give us Shell! Or something more powerfull

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

No more enochian style stuff for blackmages

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No, we can keep this. It actually gives a dynamic feel and complexity to what most people would already surmise as a simple class. I mean, it's not even that hard to begin with considering the changes they've made to Transpose.

On the other hand, can we do something about putting fireworks in freaking everything as rewards.

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Originally Posted by Fellgon

Thats right!! Bring us Protega!! Give us Shell! Or something more powerfull

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I'm partial to the pvp version and make protect a Defensive CD. Get rid of Apoc and give healers Shell to do the same thing. Protect for physical, Shell for Magic.

-Eureka. The fact that resources were taken away from more meaningful content to make it is very upsetting.

-Too much of the same. If ShB's new content is only going to consist of POTD 3.0, beast tribes, and Eureka 2.0, then I am going to lose interest very quickly.

-24 mans connected to the story line of another game. I had a hard time following the SB 24 mans since I never played Final Fantasy Tactics. I suspect I'm going to have an even harder time following the ShB 24 mans since I've never played any Nier games either, which is more than a little frustrating.

-The MSQ having a split focus like it did with Doma and Ala Mhigo. It felt very clunky.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

No offense to you personally, but I wish people would stop using "relic" to refer to both ARR's and HW's long-term weapons.

ARR's was "relic", but more specifically it was "Zodiac".
HW's was "Anima".

Anima was MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better than relic to get. It was still somewhat of a pain in the rear, but much more tolerable. ARR's relic was absolutely, horribly, ridiculously terrible, and I think is primarily what Ritsuko is referring to. Anyone that claims ARR's relic was better to get than Eureka never got their ARR relic.

And to be frank, Eureka is MUCH less of a pain to get than even HW's Animas were.

The bottom line though, is this: Relics/Anima/Eureka weapons are never going to get easier or less time-consuming to obtain. That's the entire point of them. They are meant to be absurdly long-term goals.

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They are relic weapons and they have been way more comfortable to get as the eureka weapon! I say that as a person that had several ARR and HW RELICS.

Do you want to know why they have been way more comfortable? You didn't have to do the same shit all the time and for several things you had different ways to archieve your goal. With the eureka weapon you can only do one thing and thats eureka, no real variety in any way, just straight up eureka.

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Originally Posted by SamSmoot

For me, it's more abilities. I have far too many keybinds already. I'm ok with new ones, if they replace mediocre old ones, but no more bloat please.

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I don't wanna see Lalas.

anything that looks like or plays like diadem.

Dump the near-impossible MSQ solo instances like "The Will of the Moon" Or, at least, let us resume them after the last stage completed, instead of having to do them over and over again from the start. Imagine if you had to start a dungeon or raid over from the beginning every time you died (wipe or not)..

Limited jobs...

While I too would prefer to never see them again, if there has to be another Diadem/Eureka, put it at the launch of a patch, not halfway through. The long-term grinding stuff should be available earlier if it's supposed to keep people playing. Ditto for PotD/HoH.

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Originally Posted by SamSmoot

Dump the near-impossible MSQ solo instances like "The Will of the Moon" Or, at least, let us resume them after the last stage completed, instead of having to do them over and over again from the start. Imagine if you had to start a dungeon or raid over from the beginning every time you died (wipe or not)..

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Stroooongly disagree.

In dungeons and other group content, I like the current level of difficulty and I don't mind that players have the ability to carry each other if someone is underperforming slightly. It would be an exercise in frustration if peak performance was required of everyone at all times outside of Savage content.

However, the game needs to also have git-gud-checks, like Will of The Moon, where individual players are required to display a bare minimum of competence to proceed, so that, as the complexity and difficulty of content increases, they don't go into group content expecting to get carried all the time.

Female-only Viera. Or gender-locked races for that matter. Welp, RIP that dream.
Eureka-type content, and if there has to be, then no locking items behind unreasonable layers of RNG.
Staggering content over multiple "mini-patches" as often as they've been doing.
Robes for casters and healers
Solo duties at the beginning of the MSQ that bottleneck players (i.e. Raubahn Savage 2.0)
The WoL - er - WoD not doing any morally-ambiguous/anti-hero things.

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Originally Posted by Bonbori

Stroooongly disagree.

In dungeons and other group content, I like the current level of difficulty and I don't mind that players have the ability to carry each other if someone is underperforming slightly. It would be an exercise in frustration if peak performance was required of everyone at all times outside of Savage content.

However, the game needs to also have git-gud-checks, like Will of The Moon, where individual players are required to display a bare minimum of competence to proceed, so that, as the complexity and difficulty of content increases, they don't go into group content expecting to get carried all the time.

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IMO that was basically what Steps of Faith was in HW at launch and Shinryu normal on SB launch were as well. However too many people didn't want to "git-gud" so SE catered to them and nerfed the duties which personally made things worse for the rest of us in the long run... >.>

- Determination of stats at random on the 5.0 "relic" weapons...just no, that was not a good idea. I am perfectly content with a grind if it means it gives me the stats I want. Yes I'm aware the "substat potential" is higher and the fact all the points can go to one stat even to compensate for the random element, but I don't like "potential" on a weapon of this type (because it can go good and bad). I like the ability to customize to guarantee what I want in the end and I hope that comes back.
- Only having one type of content to work on said weapons (I don't mind Eureka THAT much, tho I do mind that it was the only method).
- ShB "relic" steps being introduced late. Anemos didn't come until patch 4.25. HW weapons started in... patch 3.15 if I recall right, so that was still during the first raid tier.
- Any dungeons/trials without an item level requirement.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

IMO that was basically what Steps of Faith was in HW at launch and Shinryu normal on SB launch were as well. However too many people didn't want to "git-gud" so SE catered to them and nerfed the duties which personally made things worse for the rest of us in the long run... >.>

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Wait, when did they nerf Shinryu? I know it goes faster now, but that's because we hilariously outgear it.

-Race locked glamour

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Originally Posted by Eldevern

-Race locked glamour

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The hempen sets shouldn't have race specific models. Make them all craftable under whatever names (Hempen Tee, Camise, and so forth) and put them in the same crafting log section they're already in and whatever vendors sell them.

There's already like eight Boarskin Ringbands of X and a dozen different circlets with no difference except a minor cosmetic one since elemental resistance was removed, so what is the harm?

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

The hempen sets shouldn't have race specific models. Make them all craftable under whatever names (Hempen Tee, Camise, and so forth) and put them in the same crafting log section they're already in and whatever vendors sell them.

There's already like eight Boarskin Ringbands of X and a dozen different circlets with no difference except a minor cosmetic one since elemental resistance was removed, so what is the harm?

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they did say they would unlock the hempen sets for all when that will actually happen who knows

I want to see people not lose their minds over things they can't control. I.E. gender locked races, a new job role that wasn't expected ... etc.

One can only hope.

Things I don't want to see in this expansion?

The dev team continuing to stretch themselves thin with the release of unpolished content that feels like an afterthought, rather than something from the group that brought us ARR out of the ashes of 1.0.

Pace yourselves, for crying out loud.