Get rid of arrows? *hide*

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Originally Posted by AmandaHuggenkiss

Archer does amazing DPS for one reason.
It needs a consumable to to it's job.
If archer had unlimited arrows it's damage would need to be nerfed by a ton.


That said I like archer how it is.

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Good for you, but ARC and Bard are the classes I want to play and I can't because I'm neither a rich merchant or a high level gatherer / crafter. I'm sure it's the same for a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by Tempast

That's right, you can farm anything you'd like for the same amount to buy those arrows :D that's how a market works! Congratulations!

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Your missing the point. What encouragement is there for people to craft those arrows if they are going to be a loss of profit? And for people saying you can simply gather the mats needed to make the arrows, those players will be loosing a profit to be gained in order to play the class [which is essentially the same as purchasing the arrows yourself + hours of gathering.] So its a problem and the point still stands, ARC is a gil sink no matter which way you approach it.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

Everyone is happy... except the monsters...

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I lol'd irl :)

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Originally Posted by Syris

Your missing the point. What encouragement is there for people to craft those arrows if they are going to be a loss of profit? And for people saying you can simply gather the mats needed to make the arrows, those players will be loosing a profit to be gained in order to play the class [which is essentially the same as purchasing the arrows yourself + hours of gathering.]

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Most people I know who are selling arrows are grinding EXP off of them and selling them is just a bonus.
There are much better ways to make Gil. (and you don't need a high level craft to do it)

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Originally Posted by AmandaHuggenkiss

Most people I know who are selling arrows are grinding EXP off of them and selling them is just a bonus.
There are much better ways to make Gil. (and you don't need a high level craft to do it)

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Yeah your right, all I'm saying is that when playing ARC your "cost of living" is much higher. :)

Warped arrows! Graaar! Barebones dps until you can afford the best... Around! Nothings ever gonna keep ya down!

On a slightly more serious note, I would like to see a quiver of unlimited arrows. Reduce damage if you have to balance with directionless combos or keep the damage and add other prequisites to combo.

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Originally Posted by Syris

BUT WHYYYYY?

Seriously though... Why? :(

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Because:
1. No one is forcing you to play the class
2. No one is forcing you to equip the best arrows (warped arrows can be bought from an NPC on the cheap)
3. You are not limited to one class...so you can rank a gathering/crafting class to either directly farm the mats for (and have a friend craft) or craft your own arrows OR craft/gather something else of value and use the profits you make on that to buy arrows.
4. As someone else pointed out, if gil really is an issue and people need you to go archer on an event, tell them, they might help you out.

I understand the frustration if you like archer...I am leveling it too and no, I won't solo-archer often as a rank 50 because yes, it costs money and I can solo just as efficiently on my CNJ/THM without wasting money. This being said, Archers would be FAR less happy if they lost their damage but had free arrows vs. the current system. But the reality is this: GLA/MRD spend ALOT on Materia/Gears because they need good gears that are made out of expensive mats. Mages have the same issue (felt is still pricey on my server). If food/potions become user-friendly...esp if there are hp/mp refresh items, mages and tanks will be semi-required to use them all the time. Archer gear is in the medium expense bracket. So yes, your ammo cost money...but other classes spend money too...on different things and in other ways. Lastly, if there were more people farming the mats/crafting arrows, the price would be lower and less of an issue. The bigger issue is a supply/demand problem and not a 'how the game works' problem.

So again, while I understand why people'd like the 'unlimited' arrow, I'd rather the awesome damage and gil sink than no gil sink but weak damage.

Rant mode...
Wow... just wow. Go farm your gil and pay for the arrows please. Until they stop magically refitting armor worn by a lalafell to fit everyone else, how else can a crafter expect to profit even a little. You kill a monster, you not only get exp, but gil from the spoils, so why is it so awful when a crafter does the exact same thing? A shellmate of mine made a very good point, if you want to level ARC, level BTN and CRP at the same time. I might add, you'll still need BSM or ARM to smelt the ingots, and MIN to obtain that ore. But hey, at least I can't rip you off with my ALC selling whatever strange rare glue needed anymore right?

Kind mode:
Ok, think of it this way. You go to the store to buy milk and cereal for breakfast. I dunno about you, but I prefer eating organic so that's pricey. Should I be upset over this? In the real world, making these myself is basically out of the question. I hope that helps show that even in the virtual game world, you have better options, but if you want it right now and don't want to put forth any work to get it, someone will always be happy to accept payment.

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Originally Posted by Syris

Yeah your right, all I'm saying is that when playing ARC your "cost of living" is much higher. :)

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It's the price you pay for doing good damage from a safe distance.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

new player or old. When you're out or low on gil, and cant buy ammo, you cant play the class you want.

I never personally seen an Archer shoot blanks before, but I have seen them shoot lightning bolts, and magical arrows in other mmo games that consumes mp.

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If gil is your issue go farm the mats.

50k is not expensive for arrows.. That 50gil/arrow.

The fundamental Idea behind consumable ammo is to make the user think "How many arrows do I need to use to be effective." rather than "How many times can I shoot this one enemy."

If Archer's had infinite arrows, we would have the same problem with Arcs that we have with THMs right now. They would just mindlessly pump out as much damage as possible, ruining enmity control, and killing themself and others in the process.

More Importantly, the DMG increase between level 1 arrows and level 50 arrows is inconsequential in all situation except Boss fights. A smart archer would not be using Cobalt arrows in a grind party. That's beyond dumb.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

If gil is your issue go farm the mats.

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Unless the most profitable activity you can think of is crafting arrows, you're better off farming something else (karakul fleece, cobalt ore, hog hide, whatever) and selling that.

You do not somehow save more money by farming arrow mats and crafting them up. Farming is farming, and (when dealing with sellable items) you should always be farming the most profitable item you can.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

If Archer's had infinite arrows, we would have the same problem with Arcs that we have with THMs right now. They would just mindlessly pump out as much damage as possible, ruining enmity control, and killing themself and others in the process.

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I feel quite comfortable in saying that there is no ARC, anywhere, who thinks, "I'd better slow down because arrows are too expensive and I'm running low."

The real distinction between ARC and other DDs is not the damage output; even in 1.19, when ARC sucked and did way less damage than everyone else, they still had to pay-to-play. The difference between ARC and the other DoW is that ARC pays to be able to deal physical damage at range. (THM can do something similar, but they are constrained by MP management.)

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More Importantly, the DMG increase between level 1 arrows and level 50 arrows is inconsequential in all situation except Boss fights. A smart archer would not be using Cobalt arrows in a grind party. That's beyond dumb.

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The damage between different arrows is actually pretty noticeable now. You could argue that anything except instanced content is inconsequential, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but there you have it.

You had the right idea hiding...

Go farm the items, make them yourself.

If that is too much for you because you can't be bothered to do all that work;

Remind yourself why they cost 50k (See above sentence)

because they take work to make, and time = money.

Otherwise, you can buy warped arrows for 200 gil a stack.

I like all kinds of arrows...and we should buy arrows!!!

But just between you and I...I've never hardly bought arrows in my life. Please it's an MMO learn to play with others! That's what LS are for. And you totally have the ability to make the arrows yourself.

If anything we should have more types of arrows for specific types of enemies. Arrows for flying creatures...elemental arrows...stat impairment arrows...They were headed the right direction when there were arrows that did more then piercing damage. We need many types of arrows.

I do suggest there be a generic low arrow that has INFINITY amount like the lowest level arrow. All other arrows should be more special and cost.

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Originally Posted by Agoven

I do suggest there be a generic low arrow that has INFINITY amount like the lowest level arrow. All other arrows should be more special and cost.

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This I could get on board with (although i think even a warped arrow should slightly outdamage 'free, unlimited' arrow.)

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Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

If you think cobalt arrows are overpriced, I recommend pricing the materials. For example, typical mat prices on Fabul:

cobalt ingots: 7k x99 = 693k
chocobo feathers: 4k x99 = 396k
rosewood branch: 3k x99 = 297k
total cost = 1386k for 33 stacks = 42k/stack

That's if you are manually babysitting each synth. If you are mashing enter, you can expect a 10-15% net fail rate at R50, putting you at 1386k for ~29 stacks, or 47.8k/stack. (I imagine Hasty Hand would be even worse.)

Many arrow producers are selling arrows below cost.

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While this may technicaly be true, I'd say the majority of Crafters are also Gatherers.
So any Carpenter is also likely either a Botanist or Miner, in which case cut the cost down by half.

Makes you wonder what ever happened to the arrow designs and ideas they had for archer before the game was released that never materialized. Anyone remember that? Before the beta, on the official site about the game, it said archer would have a multitude of different types of arrows that were better at killing different types of mobs, with pictures of crazy looking barbed and pronged arrows. What gives SE?

I like the arrow system as it is now, but i agree they should add quivers like they had in XI. So 10 stacks of 999 as one item that you activate to get a stack of 999 from.

Ya know, I remember in the old FF titles a player would buy an arrow equip it and the one arrow could be used over and over again. Then you could find/buy better arrows to equip to do more dmg. That might be a good way to change arrows to.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Otherwise, you can buy warped arrows for 200 gil a stack.

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2k/stack :D

I like archer now ^^

i would only a stack of 9999 arrows *___* (my bag thanks :p) i hate to have 5 or 6 stack for only Cobalt and other stack for Warped (yes, use it for farm :p) then 10 slot less

(little bad english but not simple explain my thought)

Eureka!
Make arrows as Shards! 9999 stacked but always sellable on stack of 999 arrows :D


Don't hate me o/

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Originally Posted by Aku

You had the right idea hiding...

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Pretty much doing that now haha... ^_^;

Just monitoring the comments, It's an interesting discussion. Doesn't have to be argued to death by me at this point.

It's becoming alarming how much people want to dumb this game down and complain about every change and aspect.

- People complain of nerfs like its an unheard of concept
- Server mergers - its been my experience that if game developers want to change something they do. you ethier continue to play or you leave.
- The price of items.. I mean really? Its an free market economy. The mats are out there... get off your ass and level a craft.

Making ammo infinite and keeping ARC as a decent DD isn't impossible- as it stands, ARC is going to take on a greater support role with the addition of BRD, so they're in a pretty great position. If nothing else, roll the damage of onion arrows into bows and keep them as an infinite resource, and have the ability equip cobalt for extra damage.

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Originally Posted by Gauro

Job taxes are an archaic and antiquated system. To some degree every damage dealing class should have the same capacity to deal damage. The only variable should be player skill, not the fact that the job has to rely on a consumable to even be viable. No other job suffers such an extreme tax as does Archer. There are other ways to incorporate the RP feel of having higher lvl arrows at your disposal that some players seem to desperately need, perhaps adding in different equipable and upgradable quivers, to the same dice as casters and gladiators being able to equip a shield.

I highly doubt Archer's DPS will reign supreme once 1.21 hits, with Archer becoming a support class. And where then is your argument that we should be forced to pay for arrows (which carpenters are taking a hit to craft on most servers) because our dps is so high?

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But all of this is basically the best design-and-balance answer. I don't believe that ARC's damage will go down at all to be honest, they just wouldn't gain any new combos. MRD/LNC/THM will go up and PGL will get some new tricks, but everything else will stay relatively the same-- which means that ARC's positioning and comboability is still something good.

Infinite arrows definatley I don't think is a good answer. If you think about it, other jobs should be using their ranged slot too. Such as chakrams, throwing spears, axes, and throwing daggers. They are a nice source of building TP, and I definatley use them.

The only one that would make sense to be unlimited to me would be the chakram since in my mind it should be like a boomerang and come back to me :p

Maybe they could have the possibility of letting you "collect" a portion of some of the arrows you shot at the enemy after its defeated. Like, if you shot 50 arrows at the mob, you may get 10 back in loot list after you kill it. Or something :p

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Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

From an inventory management standpoint, they could just implement FFXI-style "quivers", which were a low-stack item that, when used, created a full stack of arrows. For example:

I have 23 "cobalt arrow quivers" and 0 cobalt arrows.
I use 2 cobalt arrow quivers from the Use Item menu.
I now have 21 cobalt arrow quivers and two stacks of 999 cobalt arrows.

This immediately solved pretty much all of the ammo inventory issues in FFXI.

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As much as I like OP's suggestion, I think this ^^ is the way to go.

Eh, if arrows just didn't take up main inventory slots, it'd be fine. Move them to the same type of tab as Seals and Crystals. then at least you still have to have them, but aren't encumbered by them. A quiver page, if you will.

Paying for arrows doesn't really bother me, but at this point it is a rather archaic mechanic. If they were to make them infinite I'd like to see it done this way:

-Remove the bonus damage from the arrows, making all the archer physical dmg based purely on weapon dmg.
-Make level appropriate infinite arrows/quiver with +acc/+atk or pie/dex stats similar to how rings are.
-Allow Carpenters to make an elemental arrow/quivers that would convert their dmg type to another. Ex: Basic arrows deal projectile dmg. Quivers of fire/ice/thunder/aero/earth and maybe also a peircing, the trade off would be that there would be no bonus stats.
-Maybe make archers have a ranged auto attack if their dmg drops off too much from not having the bonus dmg on arrows.

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Originally Posted by Halvaard_Vidan

While this may technicaly be true, I'd say the majority of Crafters are also Gatherers.
So any Carpenter is also likely either a Botanist or Miner, in which case cut the cost down by half.

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It doesn't matter if you are a Botanist, Miner, and Armorer; every material that you use to make arrows is one that you don't sell on the AH. The cost is what it is.

Holy cow 4K for chocobo feathers?!!!!!

Let me come to your server I could make 100,000,000 gil a day.

WHAT I would like to see for archers is the RELOAD skill to pop up a small menu to change the arrows you are using in battle without having to access the full large menu or just reloading of the same type of arrows I had equipped. What if a boss had multiple weaknesses from different sides or parts or a boss had multiple mobs as part of it.

One weak against this element vs another. I'd like to rapidly switch between different arrows to do what I need to do.

I agreed that arrow stacks being needed is kind of an old system for mmos. At this point, I doubt they will be removed anytime soon.

Most archers I know, unless doing a primal fight or raid, use warped arrows. This saves greatly of arrows costs.

I read this a long time ago in an interview somewhere that I'll probably never find again, but my understanding the reason for archers needing constantly buy arrows is a gil sink. Ifrit excluded, due to massive AoE spam, the archer is very far from combat and shouldn't being taking damage. Why does this translate into arrows costs? Whenever you get hit, you have a chance for item damage. This leads to item repair costs. This is why tanks generally have to repair more often then everyone else in the party. Anyways, this means the archer should be taking less damage and therefor less item damage. Less item damage means less item repairs. So the archer has an upkeep cost in arrows over gear repairs. How true does this hold for the game currently? I'm not sure, but it does make sense in the fact the other melee are in range of most boss monster's point blank AoE attacks.

Mages get a little of this less repair cost thing too, but they also have to stand around during a fight waiting for mana to come back. As a mage, I can tell you, I'm close enough to get hit by a few point blank AoE attacks, where the archer is so far away nothing should be hitting them. A good archer will never take damage; save unavoidable hellfire or something.

Just a few thoughts.

I don't really see the need for quivers since it takes quite a long time to go through even a single stack of 999 and ever since the materials to make them was trimmed down to 3 even holding just the materials on your retainer isn't that big a deal. I wouldn't be against them being implemented, though, it would probably be more useful to those that buy arrows instead of making them or having a friend make them.

...Remember when arrows only stacked to 99? Who the hell on the dev team had that idea?

Perhaps a "phantom arrow" for when you have none equiped. Basic level 1 damage but wont leave you out in the cold if you run short on "good" arrows. Using too many of the phantoms causes equipment wear. Compensating for the ranged aspect.

Arc is likely one of the LAST jobs I will get around to leveling.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

If gil is your issue go farm the mats.

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I don't think you understand, it was an analogy.

Lets take your suggestion for example;
Farming mats, and farming for gil. = time sinks, and time taken away to play ARC. A new player wont be able to dive in right away to play archer unless they are fully established on other classes. They'll most likely play another class before considering Archer. See what I'm getting at here?

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Originally Posted by Dusk_Shardveil

Perhaps a "phantom arrow" for when you have none equiped. Basic level 1 damage but wont leave you out in the cold if you run short on "good" arrows.

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This already existed (as Scavenge) prior to 1.20.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I don't think you understand, it was an analogy.

Lets take your suggestion for example;
Farming mats, and farming for gil. = time sinks, and time taken away to play ARC. A new player wont be able to dive in right away to play archer unless they are fully established on other classes. They'll most likely play another class before considering Archer. See what I'm getting at here?

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Really? Seriously? It takes barely a few days to max a class out. A new player is fine...everyone is sooo spoiled now. I played archer before any class. You kill 10 marmots level 1-3 ish you get like 500+ gil per pelt. Oh dear it might take me 10 minutes to kill those marmots tooo...I'm in so much pain. 10 minutes later I have 2 stacks of arrow good enough to get a couple dozen levels.

Arrows aren't even a problem nor a big deal. We just all wanted more effects out of our arrows.