Sexual harassment

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Originally Posted by DDkiki

The stuff even cringier than i thought.

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What's cringey is the "Not my problem = Not anyone's problem" mentality...

For my 2c, If this happens to you, for the most part you (we) need to grow up and simply brush off this kind of thing and walk away from it. Its a game after all and it does not require you stick around or put up with this kind of thing. If you choose to respond in kind and allow it to affect you that is kind of on you. HOWEVER, if this goes past the 'random jerk-off that can't be trusted with anonymity and a keyboard' and becomes something that you are repeatedly subjected to, it is your (our) responsibility to report it and allow the rules in the game to sort out this nonsense. Same if we witness something or are told that someone is legit being harassed. Silence is complicity in that regard.

After having the misfortune of witnessing several friends be on the receiving ends of such harassment by people they trusted and unable to speak out without fear of losing everyone they cared about, it often /isn't/ as easy as simply reporting and moving on. Not everyone has the support network needed to break the enmeshment when it comes from within their own circle of acquaintances, as it often does. Likewise anyone who has been abused in any remote fashion can tell you how it slowly chips away at your sense of normalcy or ability to speak up and break away. To the point that while you might be able to tell the random stranger who objectifies you to get bent and shove their weapon into decidedly unpleasant places, you often can't do the same with the abuser you've grown used to and who has slowly ramped up their behavior over a period of months.

It's especially bad when even if you do break away and 'report and block' the person, you might end up having to do the same to multiple other people who inevitably get manipulated to come after you and question why you're being so 'dramatic' and rocking the proverbial boat. Or the person you blocked just so conveniently ends up always being where you are because this game doesn't remove from people's friendslists or being searched by someone you've blacklisted. We had an incident over here on Balmung last year where a truly unhinged individual spent months stalking and publicly badmouthing the people they were having a tiff with, even going so far as to message random people about it, and absolutely nothing came from it when the matter was reported by multiple people even with evidence. Imagine that except the person involved had been abusing you for months, and no matter what you do you can't get away from them. If you say 'grow a spine' then frankly I don't think you potentially understand the psyche of someone whose been in that position. It's not the same as someone whose just dealing with some random creep who poked them out of the blue.

I can't really speak on this particular incident as I still need to view all the evidence being presented, but the amount of people just casually waving away these issues in such a black and white manner is rather irksome. Especially when it often isn't that simple.

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Originally Posted by SkyEdge1

stuff i mostly agree with

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I think we can all agree that there are definitely levels to this type of thing from simple "adore" emote spamming on the mildest side to full blown out of game stalking... God forbid you join a fb /reddit group for your fc or whatnot and the harassment follow you around the web... SE has made it clear that they only care about in game specific issues... outside of the game it falls to the community to decide that it\\'s not ok with this behaviour... and if it IS ok with the behavior let those of us who do care know so we can find a better community to get involved with...

Eh...

I'm not sure this is sexual harassment as opposed to a nightmare/abusive ex. I mean, harassment usually has the connotation of power to it, and if he used his position in the moogle post or as a community leader to shut people up, yeah. But reading it it feels like just a horrid ex, and that's really not systematic as opposed to the person. It doesn't excuse anything, but I am wary of the trend of issue-ifying things that aren't actually the description. Horrid relationships unfortunately happen more often than we'd like.

That's why you need to protect yourself. You don't skype people or send them nudes. You don't want to make yourself too vulnerable to charming strangers on the net or in real life. You can't trust people that way. It's really easy, especially if you are lonely, to become very vulnerable to anyone who is nice to you and think the best of them. People are too casual about this, to the point of linking real life personas to this by meeting in facebook groups. You have to always think of your own safety and protection first in any relationship or interaction; you can't be casual about these things because you don't know the person. Usually you go and build trust with someone for a long time, but the psuedo anonymity of the net seems to short circuit things. I really think people need to keep game stuff in game a lot more than they do. Yes, its wrong for people to abuse your trust, but ultimately its you who have to deal with the cost and fallout, even if you are in the right. You can't rely on "well men SHOULDN't abuse" any more than "well men, SHOULDNT steal my car radio." Bad people happen, you must protect yourself as much as possible.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I mean, harassment usually has the connotation of power to it

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Such power structures really don't have to be pre-existing. Not every person who found themselves in an abusive relationship was originally submissive to their abuser - these are things developed and groomed by the abuser over time and manifest in various ways. So you're not wrong in the statement I quoted, but you are in assuming that power is always there from the get-go.

Over time I've had a handful of random players ask if I was gay. I always answer "Heh, no sorry but thank you for asking first :]"

Most of the people were chill about it, said sorry or laughed, then went about their business.

There were a few special friends however who went on to explicitly state why I should be gay and what I'm missing, one continued for about 2 minutes after I moved away.

*shrugs* I've experienced worse in night clubs.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Such power structures really don't have to be pre-existing.

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Well, i said it felt like an abusive ex. I don't think it can be called harassment though, those are two separate things. They have to be dealt with in two separate ways, and part of the way of preventively dealing with abuse is for you to be sure to protect yourself first by not rushing into a relationship without taking a long time to build trust. I feel sometimes we have this narrative where all the burden is on the other person, and people place way too much faith in others acting morally. Like the ideal and realistic clash.

Its just, well, the stakes are so high you can't be cavalier about escalating things.

its tough to write about this because i dont want to be seen as absolving the abuser. I mean, when people are in the wrong, they are in the wrong. But you don't want to get in the position of having to deal with one in the first place; you can only heal from injuries, not make it as if they never existed. I just really want to entreat people to protect themselves.

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Originally Posted by DDkiki

Sexual harassment in mmorpg. Lol. Just blacklist ppl and stop being spoiled snowflake.

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You realise people have ulterior motives and it's especially hidden well on the internet.
There are desperate, sad people on the internet and things can go south, fast.
It doesn't usually stop just from looking at someone's cat girl.
Some crazed pervert can get so indulged in you and then become
a stalker and it gets worse. Friends and families are involved, hacking, threats or anything.
Your response is really just...wow.

My question is what more could SE do to protect players from this? May sound cold but how is this anyone else's problem beside those it affects. SE has put tools in place use them while sure at times they can only be used after the fact but what more can SE or anyone else beside those that are involved can do?

People be thirsty. It's not just in MMOs. I blame Tinder

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

part of the way of preventively dealing with abuse is for you to be sure to protect yourself first by not rushing into a relationship without taking a long time to build trust.

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But that's exactly what abusers do. That's the text-book method of operation. It's even there in the news article and was part of the guy's modus operandi. The only way to prevent that is never to enter a relationship with anyone ever.

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I just really want to entreat people to protect themselves.

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Most often, by the time you realize you're in an abusive relationship it's far too late for that. Again, it's part of how those people operate and why it's so hard to break away from those situations.

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

You realise people have ulterior motives and it's especially hidden well on the internet.
There are desperate, sad people on the internet and things can go south, fast.
It doesn't usually stop just from looking at someone's cat girl.
Some crazed pervert can get so indulged in you and then become
a stalker and it gets worse. Friends and families are involved, hacking, threats or anything.
Your response is really just...wow.

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It's really hilarious to me when people think it's that easy to walk away from it. Like, I had a guy harassing me in WoW, and I finally told him off and ignored him, and whenever I logged in on my alts on another server, he would have his friends harass me too. I ended up having to leave that server. Even if you cut out the harasser/abuser they can still negatively effect your life. And in cases like mine GMs aren't always that helpful. They didn't have chat logs of this guy telling his friends to harass me, because those conversations were outside of the game.

Another situation I ran into was with a guy I was very close friends with and was an integral part of our friend circle. It was just a normal friendship at first until he started getting really creepy and stalkery and abusive. And when I did things like remove him from my friends list and change my name he would just get that information from others. I was scared to speak out against it or anything like that unless I risk losing my other friends. Plus, this guy knew things about my real life, because I had known him for a long time and I really trusted him. So I was also scared that he'd lash out at me IRL because, let's be honest, in the digital age it's not hard at all to find somebody, and he had a rough idea of where I lived and my name which was probably all he would have needed. I was lucky enough that those friends chose to side with me (well, most of them) but not everyone is that lucky. :/

And even when you DO blacklist or ignore people it doesn't stop them from harassing you. Constantly making alts, or even just following you around in character, since blacklisting a person doesn't hide their character from you. And specific to this game, it won't stop people from entering your house.

So, is protecting yourself and taking care of yourself important? Yeah. Maybe don't walk down that alley where five people were murdered alone at night with nothing to defend yourself. But even if you did and something happened, it doesn't make it your fault.

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Originally Posted by Rogatum

My question is what more could SE do to protect players from this? May sound cold but how is this anyone else's problem beside those it affects. SE has put tools in place use them while sure at times they can only be used after the fact but what more can SE or anyone else beside those that are involved can do?

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They could fix this by being more proactive about the reports that do come in. I mentioned the stalking story on the last page and how it was never resolved in spite of /MANY/ people reporting this individual and evidence collected against them. Last I checked that player happily moved servers because the community here had to step in and actually let people know what was going on after many months of using those self same 'tools'. Though that didn't stop them from still going around and telling anyone who would listen how /they/ were the victim and how mean the person they were stalking was for finally breaking and posting the logs after nothing was done. Even I got a message and let me tell you it was a trip to try and be drug into someone's emotional manipulation tactics.

I've seen and had to pass on similar information as an FC leader because there were multiple bad apples running around, hopping from guild to guild and evading any punishment in spite of reports. All to the point that the community itself started to having to compile it's own blacklists and you can bet there were several sexual predators whose names were forwarded to me along with the evidence against them, all of whom were still there and still abusing people months later in spite of being reported. When the community has to do the job of a company, there is an issue.

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Originally Posted by Rogatum

My question is what more could SE do to protect players from this? May sound cold but how is this anyone else's problem beside those it affects. SE has put tools in place use them while sure at times they can only be used after the fact but what more can SE or anyone else beside those that are involved can do?

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At some point it falls on us the community to decide we arnt going to put up with such behavior... we must decide to cut them out of party finders, linkshells, exclude them from statics... we need to let people know that if you're going to act like a scumbag that we the community will not accept them...

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

At some point it falls on us the community to decide we arnt going to put up with such behavior... we must decide to cut them out of party finders, linkshells, exclude them from statics... we need to let people know that if you're going to act like a scumbag that we the community will not accept them...

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I've always wondered how do you police unseen behavior though. Harrasment can be hard to prove if not overly obvious.
Then theres the people who intentionally make false claims to hurt other peoples ability to play, knowing the system is rigid.

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Originally Posted by DDkiki

Read, laughed.

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Then you are part of the problem.

It’s not as simple as “it’s just a game. Block and move on.” A lot of the time, the person from the game become a part of their real personal life. Nude photos were shared, one even lived with the harasser. While I personally believe it’s a bad idea to share nude photos to ANYONE, I could understand not leaving in fear of such a personal part of them being shared with god knows who. And trying to getting away from someone you live with or are staying with isn’t easy when you have no way out (money, vehicle), especially when home is far away. This kind of behavior should not be brushed off so easily. People should be punished for it. It. Is. Not. Okay. Good for you if you think you can handle it differently and not have things crash and burn around you. For others, it is not so easy. Not everyone is like you, and expecting people to handle things like you or else you’ll laugh or not take their situation seriously, is ridiculous.

Been hit on multiple times, i didn't care/respond.

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Originally Posted by CainCrimson

I've always wondered how do you police unseen behavior though. Harrasment can be hard to prove if not overly obvious.
Then theres the people who intentionally make false claims to hurt other peoples ability to play, knowing the system is rigid.

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You don't. Unseen behavior is usually carried out in private with an express goal of driving the target offline, to suicide, etc. Even things like "for fun" twitter accounts sometimes have the nefarious goal of directing hate at people by removing context.

Just ignore/blacklist. If you feel your real life safety is in danger, call the cops.

You should not waste too many brain cells over shenanigans in a video game - it's not worth it, imo.

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Originally Posted by AriaFairchild

Just ignore/blacklist. If you feel your real life safety is in danger, call the cops.

You should not waste too many brain cells over shenanigans in a video game - it's not worth it, imo.

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Ignoring issues always works out for the best...

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Originally Posted by DDkiki

Sexual harassment in mmorpg. Lol. Just blacklist ppl and stop being spoiled snowflake.

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Coming from someone who HATES sjws and PC culture, I detest comments like this. This is not directed to you personally, but you're trivializing what could amount to a major issue. I have a friend who once "dated" a guy through the game. They joined the FC and discord together, so they became a became part of our circle of friends. Eventually, she broke up with him and he got kicked out, stating that he started acting weird around her. I didn't know the full details at the time, so when he started talking to me out of the blue, I didn't think much of it. I was also somewhat forgiving and didn't want the guy to feel alone. Then I learned that he had been stalking her in-game, contacted her phone to the point she replaced her number and he tried reaching out to her on her social media. The dude got obsessed, after just a couple weeks of interaction. At that point, I cut him off too, especially after he told me "We're friends and friends always look out for each other :)" Even a year later, after she was in a new relationship, he STILL tried to message her one day. It was also likely he knew where she lived, so it became a matter of safety.

It's so easy to say "just block and blacklist them. Problem solved." It's a totally different ball game when someone actively waits to see if you'll show up online. Being told that "your character is pretty," is NOT harassment. Being actively pursued by someone, after it was made it clear you want nothing to do with them, is.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Ignoring issues always works out for the best...

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My sincerest apologies, I should have added "reporting to GMs". They have the chat logs, they can deal with the dude. I mean, spamming "Nice jobs!" in PvP gets bans, surely this is more serious than that, right?

Realistically, that's all you can do in-game.

Or you can choose not to ignore but to go ham on the dude, and he realizes he got your attention so he proceeds to get on your nerves some more. "The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on". You don't stop to trade barks with the dog.

Or you can go full 1984 and install telescreens in everyone's house to monitor activities and/or hormone levels.

Or you can start a campaign to get public attention and SE's attention, and prolly some laws are gonna be passed regarding sexual harassment in MMOs.

etc.

Your pick.

Seems messed up to put the burden on the community to blacklist and shame a person for actions that may not even be true. I do not think the community should ever get mixed up in what amounts to a personal feud. Just my two cents.

Basically when you start getting unwanted sexual crap etc....

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...39/096/3d6.jpg

Block and move on, don't get too involved with it. It's a game not a dating simulator. C_C

As a somewhat older netizen, I remember a time when no one used real names on the internet. Everyone I knew in real life used pseudonyms and it was considered very bad form to refer to someone by their real name. Things seemed the change around the time that social media started to get popular. Most of the people I know from the early days still don't use their real names online anywhere that is public. Some of them are also very cautious about giving personal information to companies who ask because databases can be hacked into. Most of the people who stalk in an MMORPG aren't going to be savvy enough to find it but there are places online where people's personal information is indexed from various sources.

My point is to please be careful what you put online and reveal to people! Blacklisting someone isn't very effective if they can find you through other methods.

I know there will always be people who will get into bad situations because they are lonely or easily manipulated but I hope some people will take my advice and be more cautious about providing personal information to people online.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Ignoring issues always works out for the best...

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I do not see many telling those being impacted to ignore in the sense to pay no mind, report it to a GM if they find enough evidence that supports harassment they will take action. Sure at times it might take a few tries since everyone interrupts harassment differently, but I have seen action be taken after repeated reports. GM's, police, law makers are not afforded the benefit of going based off their first emotional response. Which why I get worried when communities take it into their own hands to take action over a situation. Rarely are we ever given the full story, or even the truth. Things could have been left out details changed. Asking for the community on the whole blacklist these so called scumbags can be extremely damaging. We have to look at it from both sides it seems people always look at it from the view of the victim, and blindly goes based off their recollection of the story.

When the community gets dragged in, lines start to be drawn and often issues get blown into larger proportions. Contact the GM, police what have you, do not just sit on it but what benefit does anyone get bringing in strangers that often are only told the story through the grape vine. Sure people will say what if the victim is telling the truth. Here is the thing if it turns out the first person who came out was lying people ended up ignoring the true victim.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Choosing to hate is never the answer.

I've experienced a lot drama in this game and in real life, but what I've read about that today, this is completely the worst in my opinion, and to be honest, I kinda don't talk much in game or use any type of voice chat to avoid causing one, intentionally or unintentionally. While you can blacklist and report this kinda stuff, if it's outside of the game, there's really not much SE could do, since outside evidence can't be accepted, and of course there are some things blacklist can't stop.

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Originally Posted by Tint

i am wearing a bikini and some rubber boots on my lalafell when i am fishing, and i noticed that people /pet me waay more often in that outfit compared to when i am wearing more clothes >.>

however, i never felt actually harassed. people stopped when i did an angry emote, nobody followed me or did more than the /pet emote...

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The random emote people use on me most is /pet and I'm not even a Lalafell (albeit I was originally a Lalafell). I always see it as a head pat of sorts. *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by DDkiki

Sexual harassment in mmorpg. Lol. Just blacklist ppl and stop being spoiled snowflake.

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This attitude is exactly why victims are slow to come forward.

Blacklisting doesn't always work. Some are unfortunate enough to come across those who make alts, buy extra accounts, make several skype/discord accounts, and use their manipulative ways to get personal information such as email addresses from mutual friends. It can be especially difficult to get a player to leave you alone if the majority of their abuse was done outside the game. GM's can't act on information that isn't from the game.

Though it seems that this sort of harassment is typically done by guys, girls sometimes do it too. I encountered two who did to friends of mine, one who engaged in the stalker behaviour in the above paragraph. Harassment doesn't discriminate. It could happen to anyone.

I have personally experienced harassment completely based on my gender. There have been many incidents in which players who barely acknowledged my existence did a 180 when they found out I'm female, and bombarded me with offers of help, gifts, often inappropriate compliments and very probing conversation. Others were more clever. They slowly crept into being my friend before using claims of depression as a tool to get me to pity them enough to be their girlfriend.

These attempts never worked on me long enough to trap me but that didn't mean I found them comical or easy to deal with. Most guys just dropped the act and left me alone as soon as they saw it wasn't working, but a few felt the need to get revenge on me for daring to say no which usually resulted in rumours and exclusion. It's not easy to dispel rumours when you're the newer person in a community. The pressure of feeling disliked got to me enough that I left.

As a result of this I am very guarded around players I don't know, which is very frustrating because it can give the wrong impression and I'm painfully aware of it when it does. However the flip side is my experiences lent me knowledge in how to spot the signs of predatory and anti-social behaviour, and how to deal with it. Which is very handy to have as a fc leader.

All this being said the majority of player encounters in my very long mmo career have been mundane or good experiences. But I'd be lying if I said I went more than a year without encountering or hearing about someone who preys on other people. It is sadly pretty common.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Most often, by the time you realize you're in an abusive relationship it's far too late for that. Again, it's part of how those people operate and why it's so hard to break away from those situations.

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A lot of talk like this is well meaning, but it strips agency from people. I mean, you can set up boundaries and tender trust accordingly. There are things you can do not to be vulnerable; they aren't foolproof, but nothing is. And sometimes it means being strong enough to say no when they break those boundaries. It's just...well, there are a lot of lonely and hurting people out there who jump at the chance, oblivious to their own safety. You have to be careful who you give intimacy to.

There's uppity kitties and then there's the sort of thing that happened in that article.

One is harmless and easily dismissed. The other is criminal. Literally.

I got a great idea.

Don't sexually harass.

Also,

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This attitude is exactly why victims are slow to come forward.

Blacklisting doesn't always work. Some are unfortunate enough to come across those who make alts, buy extra accounts, make several skype/discord accounts, and use their manipulative ways to get personal information such as email addresses from mutual friends. It can be especially difficult to get a player to leave you alone if the majority of their abuse was done outside the game. GM's can't act on information that isn't from the game.

Though it seems that this sort of harassment is typically done by guys, girls sometimes do it too. I encountered two who did to friends of mine, one who engaged in the stalker behaviour in the above paragraph. Harassment doesn't discriminate. It could happen to anyone.

I have personally experienced harassment completely based on my gender. There have been many incidents in which players who barely acknowledged my existence did a 180 when they found out I'm female, and bombarded me with offers of help, gifts, often inappropriate compliments and very probing conversation. Others were more clever. They slowly crept into being my friend before using claims of depression as a tool to get me to pity them enough to be their girlfriend.

These attempts never worked on me long enough to trap me but that didn't mean I found them comical or easy to deal with. Most guys just dropped the act and left me alone as soon as they saw it wasn't working, but a few felt the need to get revenge on me for daring to say no which usually resulted in rumours and exclusion. It's not easy to dispel rumours when you're the newer person in a community. The pressure of feeling disliked got to me enough that I left.

As a result of this I am very guarded around players I don't know, which is very frustrating because it can give the wrong impression and I'm painfully aware of it when it does. However the flip side is my experiences lent me knowledge in how to spot the signs of predatory and anti-social behaviour, and how to deal with it. Which is very handy to have as a fc leader.

All this being said the majority of player encounters in my very long mmo career have been mundane or good experiences. But I'd be lying if I said I went more than a year without encountering or hearing about someone who preys on other people. It is sadly pretty common.

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Just smash your eyeballs into this post for as long as it takes for you to get her point.

Dude is a dirtbag. Boys and girls remember internet safety tips from the 90's and don't give too much of your personal information or life to someone you don't even know what they look like. What I can't quite understand is why this guy is being spun as having actual prominence or some kind of power to wield, the xiv fan community ain't Hollywood. Someone is making you uncomfortable or worse, break it off. I know I know, easier said than done in real life but most of these interactions seemed to be online only unless I'm missing something.

And don't give out nudes to folks if there's the slightest chance you wouldn't want the risk of them being spread around. No victim-blaming here, just trying to wrap my head around how this could happen multiple times with this guy. Maybe I'm too tired to properly get how important this guy was to be able to slide into so many DMs and be allowed to wreak so much personal havoc.

edit: and I'm confused mainly on how this is something the xiv community responsible for or at risk from? Let the court of public opinion destroy this guy as he rightly deserves but leave xiv out of it I guess? He doesn't ACTUALLY represent the game.

This may not be a dating simulator, but you are playing with REAL people. Sometimes bonds happen outside of the game. Heck, there are many couples that get married irl after meeting within the game. Just because 14 is a game, does not mean the people behind the screens are any less real. It’s just like... say... a bar. Not the best place to search for a SO, but it’s not gonna NOT happen. Sometimes people click. You can’t blame people for wanting a special someone. To not be lonely. Not my place to judge how people choose to date. If you are manipulating and abusing people, however, that is beyond not okay. Multiple people now damaged, and for what? That crap lasts. I was abused several years ago before I got sick of how my ex treated me. Strong in the fact that I won’t take him back, but the emotional and esteem issues are still there and have not improved. Even after being with someone who is an amazing partner for years.

I reviewed the article and their statements over on reddit. I mean how does this guy hold power for so long and none of the staff members knew about it. I think that they did, and the only reason we’re finding out about it now is because they got caught.

No statement released by the staff that they didn’t know about it.

The Editor in Chief has relinquished certain social media accounts to specific members of the team, of which, wont give to the rest of team.

To me this kind of bullshit isn’t to be trusted at all. They’ve been a team for a couple years now, people! I feel bad for the women hurt by this and yet these guys rather focus on rebuilding a new magazine full of corrupt individuals.

MODS NEED TO CONDUCT A FULL INVESTAGATION ON ALL THE PARTIES INVOLVED.

I’m utterly disappointed at many of the responses here. People from the outside praise FF’s community, but looking at this thread... need I say more?

If someone makes sexual comments about my character, that isn’t harassment. However, it’s plain weird and a simple block + report can do the trick. However, in a lot of cases, especially if you know the person and have trusted them, that simply is not enough. On a previous game I played, although it wasn’t sexual harassment, I’ve felt first hand what it’s like to be on the receiving end of hate and jeering. The thing is, these people know how to turn others against you, and it then turns into the plague. People who don’t even know you can jump on the bandwagon, creating an unpleasant experience.

In this case, sure. Especially so early on into a relationship, it’s probably not the best of ideas to go on Skype sending nudes for example. Nevertheless that doesn’t mean it warrants creepy behaviour. These people are manipulative, and use people as pawns. It most certainly is an issue that the community ought to be aware of.

Block and report does NOT work all the time. If a person has the means to make your life a misery, they can and they will.

Lastly may I just add that online relationships in a game are perfectly valid. I met my bf of one year and a bit on the previous game I played. We’ve met multiple times.

If most of the communication is done on Discord, SE can't really do a damn thing. The only thing they can do is get proper authority to involve.