Selling Ultimate Weapon Ultima Is Apparently Not Against the ToS

Thru can’t prove the contents of any out of game interaction nor can they prove whether or not someone intentionally posted a cross server party finder knowing full well you can’t tramsfer gil between severs.

Even though it’s pretty clear what’s going on, at the end of the day, who cares? Why are people so personally affronted by this? It has zero effect on anyone but the parties involved, and no, I don’t believe it cheapens the achievement of anyone who has legit cleared a fight. Actions taken by random, strangers don’t affect what you personally have or haven’t done. Clearing the fight through your own skill gets you the same amount of internet points whether or not someone else payed to clear it with gil or with real money.

SE is clearly not going to act on cases where there isn’t 100%in game proof of something being done against the TOS, so do what I should have done with this thread, and just keep scrolling and move on with your life.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

It cheapens the entire act of getting the clear and the item. It's done through means not supported in game and is against the ToS. Complacency solves nothing.

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What's there to solve? Your ego is bruised because someone has the same shiny toys?

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Originally Posted by Nockvryca

The one person in this thread that understands my point. Thank you!

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It's not for a lack of understanding.. I told you I WOULD ban myself if I broke the rule. I don't know what you want me to say after that?

To get back to the OP, no, selling runs in-game is unfortunately not against the ToS. SE has chosen to permit clears in exchange for Gil, a massive loophole that allows them to lazily ignore the blatantly obvious RMT that is engaged in via their own Party Finder system while still technically 'enforcing' their own rules. It's a shameful state of affairs, one that played a role in me quitting XIV the first time around (the RMT spam back then was unbearable).

As an aside, there are several individuals making the point that we shouldn't fuss about things that don't really impact our own experience. To this I respond: selling runs does impact my experience. Part of why I play MMOs and online titles in general is for a virtual world that is firmly separated from one's IRL status. Someone living in a rickety house struggling to make rent can be looked up to by a CEO in FFXIV. I value that. When RMT is routinely overlooked and ignored, or even semi-officially sanctioned in the form of the Mog Station, it shreds this disconnect, harming my experience. Impact cannot be properly discussed when its definition is narrowed to the point of uselessness.

Some people. SMH. I can see why people are againts selling for real money, but if its with gil , sure why not? Whats the difference a fc member being dead on the floor most of the time vs a guy who is also dead on the floor but pay with gil? Nothing. One person decide to pay for the service in the game, while the first guy whos doing it with his fc is just there to play with his fc and have no clue how to do the fight and want to get a so called helping hand from his fc members without giving back for the service.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

What's there to solve? Your ego is bruised because someone has the same shiny toys?

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The problem of RMT? Selling clears of content for real money? You know, that thing that is explicitly stated in the Terms of Service as illegal, that everyone with a service account agreed upon before installing the game?

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

As an aside, there are several individuals making the point that we shouldn't fuss about things that don't really impact our own experience. To this I respond: selling runs does impact my experience. Part of why I play MMOs and online titles in general is for a virtual world that is firmly separated from one's IRL status. Someone living in a rickety house struggling to make rent can be looked up to by a CEO in FFXIV. I value that. When RMT is routinely overlooked and ignored, or even semi-officially sanctioned in the form of the Mog Station, it shreds this disconnect, harming my experience. Impact cannot be properly discussed when its definition is narrowed to the point of uselessness.

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So, again, this is just an ego issue. And not, like, an actual gameplay issue.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

The problem of RMT? Selling clears of content for real money? You know, that thing that is explicitly stated in the Terms of Service as illegal, that everyone with a service account agreed upon before installing the game?

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An excellent point this would be if I didnt see people also vying for people who sell clears for gil to be banned as well.

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Originally Posted by Rogatum

Would it be nice if they did something about their polices? Yes, but asking for them to drop the hammer hard on every ToS volition seems counter intuitive.I do not think many are defending the action of selling runs, more so have a fear is SE goes full force enforcing each ToS rule in-game as they do on the forums many players would be banned for extremely trivial things such as names. Personally if the forums are any indication of how SE handles infractions I am glad they are fairly lax in-game.

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In the end it's just my opinion... clearly it seems like it's out of control and there's not alot SE can do to fix it. I would just say buck it and ban everyone selling BUT that's not what SE is going to do. I know I'm not gonna make friends on this topic but what can you do?

Selling as in RMT = real money trading which is against the TOS. Not taking about gil.. only actually breaking the rule about RMT here. Just want to point that out there.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

An excellent point this would be if I didnt see people also vying for people who sell clears for gil to be banned as well.

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Well naturally the sellers should be banned. What kind of logic are you operating on? Do you not want to ban bots for spamming in towns?

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Well naturally the sellers should be banned. What kind of logic are you operating on? Do you not want to ban bots for spamming in towns?

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Maybe youre not understanding what im talking about. You see an advertisement in PF for o8s clears going for 10 mil gil a pop.

You want the run seller who put up that PF banned because...?

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Maybe youre not understanding what im talking about. You see an advertisement in PF for o8s clears going for 10 mil gil a pop.

You want the run seller who put up that PF banned because...?

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Uh. I see an advertisement for the trading of real money for O8S clears. I want the seller who put up the PF banned because they are breaking the rules. Not difficult to understand.

I doubt anyone who actually managed to legitimately cleared the content themselves would care about buyers so they certainly don't need you to care for them on their behave.

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Originally Posted by AppleJinx

I doubt anyone who actually managed to legitimately cleared the content themselves would care about buyers so they certainly don't need you to care for them on their behave.

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Missing the point. But even if I were to go along with your faulty logic, they also sell O5-O8S runs for real money as well as EX primals. I still care, so.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Uh. I see an advertisement for the trading of real money for O8S clears. I want the seller who put up the PF banned because they are breaking the rules. Not difficult to understand.

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10 mil gil aint rmt. Thats my point. People who want all run selling banned are trying to get people banned because they dont want people to have the same items or achievements as them is my point.

I'm personally of the opinion that people can do whatever they want with their paycheck in a video game. Someone having a shiny weapon doesnt mean anything to me.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

10 mil gil aint rmt. Thats my point. People who want all run selling banned are trying to get people banned because they dont want people to have the same items or achievements as them is my point.

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But what if they are only talking about the actual RMT runs? And not so much about the ones using gil?

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

10 mil gil aint rmt. Thats my point. People who want all run selling banned are trying to get people banned because they dont want people to have the same items or achievements as them is my point.

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People are paying upwards of $1,200 USD for Ultimate clears. I don't want people who use gil to be banned. They're dumb but they didn't break the ToS. RMT is against the rules and should be punished.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

So, again, this is just an ego issue. And not, like, an actual gameplay issue.

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Firstly, I'd suggest looking up the definition of the word ego. You're misapplying the word.

Secondly, everyone has the right to make purchasing decisions on their own internal set of metrics. It's rather arrogant and presumptuous of you to imply those metrics are silly, or of less value than your own. I'll be the boss of what impacts me, and how various concerns rank in comparison to gameplay issues.

Finally, in regards to the 'problem' SE needs to solve, it's not one of ego: it's one of enforcement. They've laid out terms that RMT is illegal. They've then laid out a ToS that presents giant loopholes allowing for it to exist, out in the open, without punishment. That is, by any definition of the word, a problem. Maybe SE wants to solve it by simply legalizing RMT, making it more official perhaps; maybe they want to solve it by closing the loophole. Maybe they want to just ignore it. But it's clear that people who value an RMT-free environment, are not happy about seeing it openly displayed without any action being taken on SE's part.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

10 mil gil aint rmt. Thats my point. People who want all run selling banned are trying to get people banned because they dont want people to have the same items or achievements as them is my point.

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That is not my motivating factor. I've explained what is. I don't even raid, so I couldn't give a shit less about someone having the same stuff that I do: lots of people will. My concern, hard though that apparently is for you to understand, is about having a sense of fairness in the game that I play, and a sense of detachment from the outside world. It impacts the immersion for me.

Incidentally, I've no issue with your perspective that people should be free to use their paycheck as they see fit within the games of their choice. You're welcome to that opinion. I vehemently disagree, but everyone can make their own decisions. Bear in mind, however, that you're playing a game that officially does not permit RMT of any kind. Any proper argument is therefore formed on that basis, and should be either an argument to change the ToS, or an argument to address the inconsistencies in the ToS. A product shouldn't waffle around and permit something while not permitting something.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

People are paying upwards of $1,200 USD for Ultimate clears. I don't want people who use gil to be banned. They're dumb but they didn't break the ToS. RMT is against the rules and should be punished.

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I think if you are willing to pay $1200 for a clear on any content in a game like this you are already being punished...by genetics.

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Originally Posted by ko_

But what if they are only talking about the actual RMT runs? And not so much about the ones using gil?

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me: im talking about those who want to have all run selling banned such as posts like this

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Originally Posted by Nockvryca

Personally I don't like the idea of selling, even if it were through an actual in game trade. I think rewards should be earned. At the same time I think all rules should be followed, no matter how minor. I used to work in the pharmaceutical industry and this is how lot of rules worked, no matter how minor, you were to follow them all to the exact wording and very strictly without deviation. So my point was all rules should be followed, no matter how minor they seem. I just used your post as an example because it was the first example I saw, so the first I could use.

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ya'll: but what about the rmt sells why are you supporting those?

also

@vhalior: "Firstly, I'd suggest looking up the definition of the word ego. You're misapplying the word."

Self esteem or self worth. Or pride. Im misapplying nothing.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Uh. I see an advertisement for the trading of real money for O8S clears. I want the seller who put up the PF banned because they are breaking the rules. Not difficult to understand.

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GMs generally don't act on 3rd party data. Unless the PF states they're accepting real money for the run or that they're encouraging account sharing, it's out of the GMs' territory.

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Originally Posted by Dustytome

GMs generally don't act on 3rd party data. Unless the PF states they're accepting real money for the run or that they're encouraging account sharing, it's out of the GMs' territory.

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It is fairly obvious that it's for RMT. It's a crossworld PF and you can't trade in any capacity in it. They advertise their discord because they want to talk off-site about the sale. The advertisement itself infringes on the rules.

There should special bar in PF for runselling. Make it Cross-world. But transparent, make it official. Prohibit any runselling outside of this PF bar. Warn and ban thoose who do it outside. Dont have price or ask for info in 3rd party programs. If you want not have problem with something - legalize it and control it.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

It is fairly obvious that it's for RMT. It's a crossworld PF and you can't trade in any capacity in it. They advertise their discord because they want to talk off-site about the sale. The advertisement itself infringes on the rules.

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Maybe they have a character on the server in question that has the amount of Gil needed. Talking off-site is not against the ToS, the advertisement itself does not infringe on the rules unless they added something regarding using a third party site to discus the details. These are the things GM's have to look for, I bet a lot of GM's would like to take action against these types of PF adverts, but they can only operate within the policy they are given. Now as players we know what is going on, but as a company SE does not have the same privilege they have to go based off what they can see within the game itself. I mean if they took outside information that means everyone that uses AcT would be pretty much be SoL.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Maybe they have a character on the server in question that has the amount of Gil needed. Talking off-site is not against the ToS, the advertisement itself does not infringe on the rules unless they added something regarding using a third party site to discus the details. These are the things GM's have to look for, I bet a lot of GM's would like to take action against these types of PF adverts, but they can only operate within the policy they are given. Now as players we know what is going on, but as a company SE does not have the same privilege they have to go based off what they can see within the game itself. I mean if they took outside information that means everyone that uses AcT would be pretty much be SoL.

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Then why not advertise the price? Why do you have to ask for price on discord, purposefully out of the game's chat where it's logged? It's beyond obvious.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

Then why not advertise the price? Why do you have to ask for price on discord, purposefully out of the game's chat where it's logged? It's beyond obvious.

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It is obvious, but not explicit. GM's need explicit information to take action. Pretty sure everyone knows they are abusing SE policy about not accepting outside information, but the thing is that policy protects their entire raid scene. If they used outside info, they would either have to allow third party tools or ban players that stream, post screens with ACT up.

There is an easy way to make dent in this obviously REAL MONEY TRADING trend, and that is to place a ban on advertising content sales in the Party Finder.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

It is fairly obvious that it's for RMT. It's a crossworld PF and you can't trade in any capacity in it. They advertise their discord because they want to talk off-site about the sale. The advertisement itself infringes on the rules.

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More or less everyone knows this. Alas, until SE changes their policy or, at the very least, puts a halt to all the PF adverts, nothing will be done about it. They just don't care.

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Originally Posted by Final-Fantasy

There is an easy way to make dent in this obviously REAL MONEY TRADING trend, and that is to place a ban on advertising content sales in the Party Finder.

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SE just need to officially aknowledge sellings and classify and control them. And ban people for breaking rules.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

@vhalior: "Firstly, I'd suggest looking up the definition of the word ego. You're misapplying the word."

Self esteem or self worth. Or pride. Im misapplying nothing.

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Nothing in my post was linked to self esteem, self worth, or pride. You are absolutely misapplying the word in my case. A sense of detachment from the world, a desire for immersion not based on outside wealth, is entirely distinct from this. If I were upset that other people were getting the same rewards as me, yes, your phrase would apply. I'm not. So you're either declaring that I'm lying - quite a stretch considering you don't know me - or you're simply being stubborn and hard-headed. I don't particularly care which, but you are 100% wrong in regards to your comments directed at me.

Also, I noticed you didn't bother addressing my comment about the loophole. That's the real problem here - a policy that bans one practice (RMT) while nonetheless permitting another practice (buying runs for Gil) that, coupled with SE's standard of proof requirements (in-game records), permits open and obvious RMT. Care to respond? You sure seem tough and aggressive when you're demeaning people's personal opinions and value systems around run-selling; do you have the same toughness when you can't just toss off some smart-ass remark to make your point? Because this is the core objective argument for banning run-selling entirely, beyond the numerous subjective ones.

Who cares?? Its not your money or time thats being spent. Seems like you have way too much time, try doing other things like reading or exercising. This whole "cheapens the content" crap is crap. People who really want those items will invest their time and effort, and it seems there are people who want to pay for someone else's time and effort. Either way if you want you'll get it.

"Regarding Content Sales

It has come to our attention that players have been making use of third-party applications to bypass restrictions against Real Money Trading (RMT). As of patch 4.xx, the advertising of content sales in the Party Finder will be considered to be in violation of the Terms of Service (ToS). Players should report any Party Finder listing in violation of the ToS to the GMs."

All they have to do is put that out and the problem is dealt with. Any parties unaware of the change would get multiple warnings from the GMs before any serious action would be taken against them. The result? A smaller workload for the STF and GMs, no bans or punishment for anyone unless they really wanted it and no more RMT ads in the party finder.

while we are at it lets ban parser users too they are against ToS also.

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Originally Posted by AshlikeSnow

Who cares?? Its not your money or time thats being spent. Seems like you have way too much time, try doing other things like reading or exercising. This whole "cheapens the content" crap is crap. People who really want those items will invest their time and effort, and it seems there are people who want to pay for someone else's time and effort. Either way if you want you'll get it.

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Both opinions are valid, and comments like this - on both sides - are the real crap. There's nothing added to any discussion by attempting to invalidate someone else's opinion. I mean, are you really attempting to judge what other people find entertaining? That would be quite a display of arrogance, to project your opinion on entertainment over millions of other players.

A more tangible discussion, and what this thread and others highlight, is that the current ToS forbids RMT, while nevertheless containing a loophole the size of a billboard through which people can engage in RMT without fear of punishment. No matter what opinion one has of RMT, an ineffective policy is an issue, and should be corrected so as to even the playing field for everyone. Again, that boils down to either closing the loophole, or permitting RMT. Everyone's entitled to prefer one option or the other, but that boils down to personal preference, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

"Regarding Content Sales

It has come to our attention that players have been making use of third-party applications to bypass restrictions against Real Money Trading (RMT). As of patch 4.xx, the advertising of content sales in the Party Finder will be considered to be in violation of the Terms of Service (ToS). Players should report any Party Finder listing in violation of the ToS to the GMs."

All they have to do is put that out and the problem is dealt with. Any parties unaware of the change would get multiple warnings from the GMs before any serious action would be taken against them. The result? A smaller workload for the STF and GMs, no bans or punishment for anyone unless they really wanted it and no more RMT ads in the party finder.

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Yup. This would completely resolve the loophole. Alternately, SE could go in the other direction and choose to officially sanction RMT, a la Diablo 3's initial release, and try to take a cut. Given Diablo 3's spectacular initial failure - something that rivaled XIV 1.0 in terms of disappointment - I'm not sure this would be advised, but it's consistent at least.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

while we are at it lets ban parser users too they are against ToS also.

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I personally wouldn't advocate banning them, but this is another area in which SE should either take action, or adjust the ToS so as to even the playing field. Right now, only those willing to break the ToS in order to utilize a parser get any benefits from them. If people are going to be permitted to use them so openly on private FC websites and the like, without fear of punishment, we've got a problem.

I should point out, incidentally, that SE has a long history of ignoring their own ToS, which I think is an issue. Windower, back in FFXI, was widely used by PC players, yet technically broke the ToS. This didn't serve anyone. It became a tool only for those who knew about it and felt comfortable with it, despite being a potentially valuable resource for all PC players. Considering SE had no effective way to curtail its use, they should have opened up the ToS in regards to it, so everyone could enjoy the functionality it offered. They're still doing it today.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

while we are at it lets ban parser users too they are against ToS also.

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If you put up a pf saying you will be parsing, nothing will happen. If you put up a pf saying you want to exchange services for real money, it would be taken down.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

If you put up a pf saying you will be parsing, nothing will happen. If you put up a pf saying you want to exchange services for real money, it would be taken down.

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Actually, towards the end of Deltascape, on Aether DC, people were going around reporting PFs advertising “parse runs” for the floors, and the PF leaders were getting messages from GMs about the PFs; and the PFs were taken down. However, such PFs do not harm anyone, as no one is forcing you to join parse runs for content, so I vehemently disagree with whoever was sitting on their high horse and felt the need to report PFs that literally did not concern or impact them in any way.

Something should be done about content sales PFs—while I don’t care what others spend their money on, I’m tired of seeing them clog up the Party Finder every time I open it up.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

so I vehemently disagree with whoever was sitting on their high horse and felt the need to report PFs that literally did not concern or impact them in any way.

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It was quite likely someone who got booted from a party/raid group due to what appeared on their parse.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

"Regarding Content Sales

It has come to our attention that players have been making use of third-party applications to bypass restrictions against Real Money Trading (RMT). As of patch 4.xx, the advertising of content sales in the Party Finder will be considered to be in violation of the Terms of Service (ToS). Players should report any Party Finder listing in violation of the ToS to the GMs."

All they have to do is put that out and the problem is dealt with. Any parties unaware of the change would get multiple warnings from the GMs before any serious action would be taken against them. The result? A smaller workload for the STF and GMs, no bans or punishment for anyone unless they really wanted it and no more RMT ads in the party finder.

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Yes, it's a pretty simple solution.

So, if I group with the person who did this then their gear would be better and that would make the run smoother.