So about Summoner...

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Sorry i mean vulnerability damage is not even half of that. Summoner have 487.6 vulnerability dps while even in fastest speed kill there is 215 vulnerability dps. Even that summoner you linked have only 223 vulnerability dps. 1min longer fight not double value of your vulnerability no matter how I look at it. There is something wrong with that. I have never seen that high number o6s from that.

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I couldn't tell you *shrug* His other numbers look more normal, so I'll count that as an outlier.
https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...CmqcjTxz3Rpd/2 Here's another with probably more normal numbers.
6256 personal, 437 rDPS, 6,419 total. He ranked 82nd percentile here.

https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...FBgHwJhaCGn3/2 Mine from before for the sake of keeping them in one post (91st percentile):
6,009 damage out
322.3 from embolden
6,037 total.

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Phantom Train is purely padding against 8 targets so no point discuss about that.

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Did I...? Shit, sorry.
https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encoun...qT3wMxhkr8BY/7
6,569 out, 6,396 total.

RDM has way too low DPS. Looking at 75th percentile it needs at least + 200-300 dps to be ok.
SMN has too high DPS and looking at 75th it needs about - 200 dps to be balanced.

Raise should be removed completely.

But you have to consider: Both classes rely on group composition for their support. Both need a physical group to provide best support. SMN could go with a magical group but then has to deal with garuda positioning.

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Originally Posted by TelosNox

RDM has way too low DPS. Looking at 75th percentile it needs at least + 200-300 dps to be ok.
SMN has too high DPS and looking at 75th it needs about - 200 dps to be balanced.

Raise should be removed completely.

But you have to consider: Both classes rely on group composition for their support. Both need a physical group to provide best support. SMN could go with a magical group but then has to deal with garuda positioning.

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That's a unique take on it; SMN would have to be balanced to be a bit stronger than RDM in this hypothetical because of the inherent advantages physical buffs have against magical buffs. But make RDM the physical buffing mage and SMN the magical buffing mage...I can see this being a neat line to draw.

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Originally Posted by TelosNox

RDM has way too low DPS. Looking at 75th percentile it needs at least + 200-300 dps to be ok.
SMN has too high DPS and looking at 75th it needs about - 200 dps to be balanced.

Raise should be removed completely.

But you have to consider: Both classes rely on group composition for their support. Both need a physical group to provide best support. SMN could go with a magical group but then has to deal with garuda positioning.

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But that not make casters competitive between physical damage users. BLM need 200 dps reach samurai level and rdm need like 500 dps if you are comparing 75%. That would fall into double physical or triple melee meta again. Monk already have by far fastest speed kills compared to casters.

BLM and SAM are nearly equal. Current difference at 75th is about 60dps, that's 1%.
Maybe physicals need balancing too, I just looked at balance between casters.

@Dualgunner
No SMN should not be caster only buff. As well as RDM should not be physical only buff. No other class has such limitations for their buffs. Just make that buffs independend from the dmg type to allow more raidcompositions to be effective.

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Originally Posted by TelosNox

BLM and SAM are nearly equal. Current difference at 75th is about 60dps, that's 1%.
Maybe physicals need balancing too, I just looked at balance between casters.

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If you compare o6s sam can do over 200 dps more than blm.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/21/#boss=52

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Originally Posted by TelosNox

BLM and SAM are nearly equal. Current difference at 75th is about 60dps, that's 1%.
Maybe physicals need balancing too, I just looked at balance between casters.

@Dualgunner
No SMN should not be caster only buff. As well as RDM should not be physical only buff. No other class has such limitations for their buffs. Just make that buffs independend from the dmg type to allow more raidcompositions to be effective.

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Monk benefits only from physical, even though the party all benefits from Brotherhood; its full effects are only felt in a full physical comp. You'll also have to forgive me, I may have misinterpreted your post as an idea being tossed around for caster balance instead of an assessment of current caster balance.

In which case, though you acknowledged it, SMN is where casters need to be to be competitive. Bringing it down only harms the role's viability entirely. RDM and BLM need to be brought up to its level of competitiveness. Note when I say that, however, I'm not saying that either caster needs to surpass SMN; it's the speedkill caster, I think everybody's used to that at this point, however RDM and BLM do need to be touched up so not being a SMN isn't as glaring an issue as it is.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

If you compare o6s sam can do over 200 dps more than blm.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/21/#boss=52

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Ok and if you compare o6s then SMN is 100dps behind BLM....
You can not just pick a single specific fight and use it as balancing benchmark.

@Dualgunner
Right, I forgot that brotherhood is physical only. Should be adjusted as well.
In general there should be no "if you bring this class you need to bring that class and you can not bring that other class" stuff according to balancing. PPL should be able to play the classes they like and the only thing that should have impact on composition is the role (melee vs. range) and that impact should be small. Why not bring 4 melee? Why not bring 4 range? If the game is good then both should work without much penalty.

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Originally Posted by TelosNox

Ok and if you compare o6s then SMN is 100dps behind BLM....
You can not just pick a single specific fight and use it as balancing benchmark.

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Well I compered that because it have purely singletarget fight. If you compare aoe fights then summoner need huge nerf. But in general singletarget dps is what usually matter, not aoe dps.

Edit:
Way how summoner aoe would be nerfed is make death flare and akh morn singletarget only and boost tri-bind potency 70 - 100 even without stance + remove dot drop off from the bane. Nerf painflare for 100 - 150 potency. Reduce cast time for tri-bind 1.5sec so it would be possible weave between tri-binds. Then summoner would have more sustained aoe damage than burst aoe damage and you could not abuse that burst during add phases like o5s. That would make it more balanced in certain fights. Deathflare, akh morn and painflare are main problems why summoner dps is insanely high in any aoe encounter.

If you need a singletarget fight, then have a look at Kefka for compare as well. BLM > SAM there.

Not only adds affect the efficiency of a job, downtimes and movement mechanics affect it as well.

SAM needs uptime on the boss because he has nearly no delayable bursts and higanbana suffers a lot when the boss disappers early after application. Buffs run out too if the boss is untargetable for too long time.
MNK has a similar problem. That's why MNK and SAM do so well in O6. No positionals, 100% uptime.

You simply can not balance for all kinds of bosses.

And the crazy ADD dps for top SMN on O5 results from delaying bahamut trance and keeping 2 etherstacks and then to combine 2 painflare with deathflare (start trance and end it immediately) and then call bahamut and enkindle.
But if you don't "cheat" and use the skip strategy the SMN will get problems with his ghost in the passenger cabin. Because there is nothing left he can use. This is very specific to that single fight.

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Originally Posted by TelosNox

If you need a singletarget fight, then have a look at Kefka for compare as well. BLM > SAM there.

Not only adds affect the efficiency of a job, downtimes and movement mechanics affect it as well.

SAM needs uptime on the boss because he has nearly no delayable bursts and higanbana suffers a lot when the boss disappers early after application. Buffs run out too if the boss is untargetable for too long time.
MNK has a similar problem. That's why MNK and SAM do so well in O6. No positionals, 100% uptime.

You simply can not balance for all kinds of bosses.

And the crazy ADD dps for top SMN on O5 results from delaying bahamut trance and keeping 2 etherstacks and then to combine 2 painflare with deathflare (start trance and end it immediately) and then call bahamut and enkindle.
But if you don't "cheat" and use the skip strategy the SMN will get problems with his ghost in the passenger cabin. Because there is nothing left he can use. This is very specific to that single fight.

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Ya in faust kefka samurai is bad because slashing debuff fall off skill speed buff fall off, damage buff fall off 3 times while blm have infinite enochian and BLM can collect free fouls. If you compare god kefka. BLM is behind samurai again because fight have no downtime. And yes that is true, it is impossible balance all fights for all jobs. You would need balance every job after every raid tier based how much downtime, aoe or singletarget fight have. Sound pretty much impossible.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

This mentality needs to die.

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"nerf xyz cause its stronger than my cls"

needs to die at first - cause thats what it is all about - in every "meta" topic ever since... /thread

For me it is absolutely ok if the jobs somehow close to each other if contribution by buffs is considered.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/21
It seems that this is ok for all physical dps if you consider all current savage fights.
But casters are not balanced at all. For SMN it might be a bit specific because of the fights where he has bigger fight specific advantages (Train, Guardian and Kekfa). I know he is a bit ahead of BLM but I am not sure how much it really is. A slight nerf is a must.
RDM needs a buff! It is not acceptable that RDM is 2nd last with that little bit of dps support.

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Originally Posted by Neela

"nerf xyz cause its stronger than my cls"

needs to die at first - cause thats what it is all about - in every "meta" topic ever since... /thread

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It's about ballance. If you honestly cant see smn is out ranking other casters by a good margin, you're blind. It's blatantly unfair and unhealthy to the game.

Maybe one day you'll be able to comprehend this if smn gets a bad patch and falls to bottom tier caster slot. A smn has never been forced into other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

It's about ballance. If you honestly cant see smn is out ranking other casters by a good margin, you're blind. It's blatantly unfair and unhealthy to the game.

Maybe one day you'll be able to comprehend this if smn gets a bad patch and falls to bottom tier caster slot. A smn has never been forced into other jobs.

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Heh, clearly you didn't play Summoner for the entirety of 2.X. Wasn't exactly broken, but certainly was "bottom tier" caster, so tell your sob story to someone else.

Honestly, I'd feel more sympathetic towards this discussion if it wasn't so blatantly biased. It just screams of "Wah! Black Mage isn't on top anymore, nerf Summoner so I can be back on top!" I do agree that Black Mage should be doing more damage than Summoner given that Black Mage is built more like a "selfish DPS" class, but it is still doing more damage, albeit Summoner's potential is perhaps higher than it should be. But most of this topic is about "NERF SUMMONER!" instead of trying to be proactive and adjust Black Mage. But no, why try to buff Black Mage when you can hate on your fellow Summoners and nerf them, right? Whatever.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Maybe one day you'll be able to comprehend this if smn gets a bad patch and falls to bottom tier caster slot. A smn has never been forced into other jobs.

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I guess I could comprehend it throughout all of 2.xx, 3.xx and early 4.xx then, since summoner has only recently moved itself into the meta. The fourth raid slot has never been more competitive with meta groups running monk/summoner/machinist; pretty healthy in comparison to the double ranged meta we had for close to two years(?) now.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Maybe one day you'll be able to comprehend this if smn gets a bad patch and falls to bottom tier caster slot. A smn has never been forced into other jobs.

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maybe one day u will actually know what u are talking about... until than u should study eorzeas history instead trying to lecture me.


with the latest pot buffs of the selfish ones & the (at least for me) well balanced range cls' its exactly like Crein said: its first time in history that there is a fair logical and tactical competition given in the dds meta slots. the only one who could get a slight buff is rdm, else raid situation is refreshed and pretty interessting atm - keep your saltiness for yourself... there are still fights where blm & sams easily kick smns ass to death so whats the matter of balance everybody is talking about...?

...and even if summoner seems a lil bit yolo atm - its finally hella fun playing it, isn't it what matters in the end?...

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Originally Posted by Neela

...and even if summoner seems a lil bit yolo atm - its finally hella fun playing it, isn't it what matters in the end?...

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There's no arguing with you if you think "so what if they're a bit op, its fun being op" is fine.
Enough with the "bias" replies; I tried UCoB with Summoner and I had alot of fun. I did Sigmascape as a RDM. I don't play solely BLM.
I didn't propose any solution, I didn't say "nerf smn" or "buff blm", I stated that SMN is dominating all other casters by a significant margin. Stop trying to claim it as "salty blm tears", I'm stating FACTS.
Look at the God Kefka logs. No Adds, no downtime, and SMN is just about equal with BLM. This would be fine if SMN didn't have any utility, but because they do, they simply do the same (if not more in mobility/add focused fights) damage as BLM, and have far more utility than BLM, who in turn, has NO utility.

Heck, let's stop talking about BLM for a second. How is it fair that SMN does SIGNIFICANTLY more damage than MNK NIN DRG BRD MCH RDM in most fights, while bringing about the same amount of utility as atleast half of them, and remaining absolutely mobile for the entirety of the fight? Isn't mobility and big utility the reason why BRD/MCH are designed to be weaker in personal DPS? Sure they have considerably better utility than SMN, but the margin between BRD/MCH and SMN is way too big if the reason is just having slightly less utility than them.

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

I'm stating FACTS.

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oh u wanna talk about facts and fairness? than tell me how fair smns last 3 years past was, were they never took the slightest role in raiding at all? hmm.. but well like you opend your hypocratical post "enough with bias replies" k?

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Originally Posted by Neela

there are still fights where blm & sams easily kick smns ass to death so whats the matter of balance everybody is talking about...?

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see, there is the thing you don't understand. it shouldn't be most fights, it should be all. and it shouldn't remotely even be a contest. you have a raise, and zero momentum based rotation thats so mobile i struggle to even consider smn a "caster". ohoho, inb4 "wellll you lose muh 20 potency for casting r2" not only is that adorable compared to losing 400 potency, but i'm not even talking about that. your r3 filler spell is a goddamn gcd cast time. thats a joke to slide cast.

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Originally Posted by Neela

oh u wanna talk about facts and fairness? than tell me how fair smns last 3 years past was, were they never took the slightest role in raiding at all? hmm.. but well like you opend your hypocratical post "enough with bias replies" k?

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You mean the two years before halfway through Creator, right, because SMN was just as OP if not more during 4.1. And if you are, then it's not BLM's fault SMN was in that spot because BLM was in the same spot. Neither caster was forced to switch to another caster, they were forced to switch to MCH/BRD.

I never said its blm fault hell I just don't understand why people complain since 2 of 3 caster nowadays can take part in raiding with no doubts - but no instead being happy with that its more about who got the longer one of these two... but well I guess its humanity people won't find happiness without complaining.

You can't really use "BLM is better at X fight in a tier, therefore SMN is okay!" as an argument as a static isn't likely to have the perfect roles for every right, forcing people to change jobs every step of the way. You're not going to have someone be a MNK for O6s then be NIN in O7s because it's more efficient because aside from expecting a person to be able to play both jobs with equal levels of proficiency, you also have to take into consideration gear progression.

As a result, most groups I've ran into aren't using RDM or BLM for a caster slot because SMN outshines them in the big picture. So that's either a failing or the raid tier giving each job a chance to really shine so that taking any caster job is viable for a raid static, or it's a problem with the jobs being imbalanced, and in my opinion, it's probably a little of both, especially when comparing RDM to SMN.

The utility and mobility packages of the two jobs are comparable, with most of the time SMN having better utility, and RDM having arguably better, though only in short bursts, mobility. As such the two jobs should be outputting damage much closer to each other than they actually are. SMN might be slightly over turned at the moment, and RDM definitely needs a buff (I think the devs over valued the utility benefits of Vercure and Verraise) OR RDM needs better mana management to make that utility viable... or both.

Also to all the smn that cry " we've only been in the DPS meta for a little bit"

How many first clears have a blm? It's neat that smn is now a competitive dps, but they've always been the best prog tool job without much drawback. Even while they were at their "low"

Hell, go count how many black mages are clearing content vs smn. Tell me how many ucob smn clears there are vs the SIX black mages. Even in savage blm is utterly dwarfed in clears. The LEAST clears. Why do you reckon that is? Because they're equally viable options, right? Keep explaining how smn doesn't greatly outclass all casters. Or this delusion that they weren't useful in prog even when they weren't part of speed clearing.

zera u shouldn't use superlatives like "always" if u don't know what u are talking about... it makes u look pitiful. and your provocative "mimimi" won't help to show that u actually got the point. if u want that people take u serious take a look at dualgunner or wereotter maybe u can train your softskills that way. anyway u don't know anything about smns in my opinion so please stop talking.

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Originally Posted by Neela

zera u shouldn't use superlatives like "always" if u don't know what u are talking about... it makes u look pitiful. and your provocative "mimimi" won't help to show that u actually got the point. if u want that people take u serious take a look at dualgunner or wereotter maybe u can train your softskills that way. anyway u don't know anything about smns in my opinion so please stop talking.

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Apparently I know enough about them to beat you on smn with minimal experience. Do say more. Explain in depth this hidden knowledge of smn to me please. Are you going to meme me with the "le spoooooky 90 second rotation, oooOOOoOooOooOoo" ? you call me pitiful? Try the mirror.

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Originally Posted by Neela

oh u wanna talk about facts and fairness? than tell me how fair smns last 3 years past was, were they never took the slightest role in raiding at all? hmm.. but well like you opend your hypocratical post "enough with bias replies" k?

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The previous state of the balance between jobs is completely irrelevant in discussing the balance of jobs in the present. And you LITERALLY displayed your own unfair bias towards SMN just now.

Saying that you’re upset you have to play another caster instead of the one you want to play is a game you’ve intentionally set up to be in your favour, because nowhere here do you talk about how unfair it is that MNK and MCH (or the rest of the DPS) are so good, and they’re the other shoe-ins for the fourth DPS slot. Really if you’re going to complain about SMN you should be complaining about the others, and if you’re not you’re just engaging in the circle jerk political drama of whether or not it’s fair that a job is better than yours.

MCH and MNK are arguably better than either RDM or BLM in the fourth raid slot so you should be harping about how good those are too right? I mean it’s only fair. Restricting the conversation to ‘just casters’ is a convenient red herring to pretend that SMN itself is the source of your strife as some other caster, when in fact it’s how bad your current job is. Full stop.

If you sincerely cannot stomach the fact that you aren’t playing the best possible job then you should be clamoring for buffs to your job, not nerfs to SMN. It doesn’t make casters any better than the jobs they’re competing with, it still makes it so that the other jobs I listed are better and you should play them instead. Not that that’s what this topic is about since it’s focusing on one job, not literally every job that isn’t RDM/SAM/BLM.

SMN is better than BLM or RDM. But then again so are most other jobs in the game, and unless you're calling for a blanket nerf to every other job too to me this seems vindictive and silly.

OP didn't call for a nerf or for a buff. I called for a buff so that RDM and BLM could be competitive again, which on its own immediately solves those problems DaulBan.

Also Daul, see his other post:

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Originally Posted by RainDurell

Heck, let's stop talking about BLM for a second. How is it fair that SMN does SIGNIFICANTLY more damage than MNK NIN DRG BRD MCH RDM in most fights, while bringing about the same amount of utility as atleast half of them, and remaining absolutely mobile for the entirety of the fight? Isn't mobility and big utility the reason why BRD/MCH are designed to be weaker in personal DPS? Sure they have considerably better utility than SMN, but the margin between BRD/MCH and SMN is way too big if the reason is just having slightly less utility than them.

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Originally Posted by Neela

I never said its blm fault

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Regarding this, your statement about how for the past three years SMN had no role in raiding at all comes with the connotation that you're saying BLM did, when BLM didn't either. Basically, it sounds like you're saying "Not being in the meta as a caster" is uniquely a SMN issue they dealt with, which is why I responded with what I did.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

How many first clears have a blm?

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There is few world first for blm if you wanna see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDJde_SZfNw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W54tETcM-0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iewfOmHjwYU&t=

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

snip

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I think its a lot closer for those 2 than smn. most of the time you want 2 ranged 2 melee anyway (outside of a couple fights it doesn't matter), meaning monk has to compete against the gods of nin+drg for their slot, and not often ranged. 2 range slots, everybody will always 100% want a bard for one of them because why wouldn't you. so its down to blm/smn/rdm/mch for the final competition of 2nd range spot. I honestly feel like equal higher play mch and blm are close enough to ignore differences, especially if a monk ended up replacing the drg and theres no disembowel.

I think if any job wanted to argue against how good monk is, it'd be sam.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

snip

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thanks.
I kind of forget ARR even existed.
really could have sworn smn was more prevalent during HW though.

I enjoy how SMN and BLM are fighting over who gets the biggest piece of the pie while RDM is locked outside in the rain. Less useful utility, so much less damage it's not even in this ballpark...

... but yeah, you SMN mains keep complaining when people ask to get rid of some of your dps or utility/mobility. Sure, your complaints are totally important >.>

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

How many first clears have a BLM?

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Dude, all the posts I've seen you posting in this thread have very poor arguments/make no sense at all.
Stop embarrassing yourself.
Well we had BLM first in ALL the Final Coil fights.
We had BLM first in BOTH Gordias and Midas and some fights of creator.
We had no SMN first in Deltascape.
We had no SMN first in UCoB.
I have no clue about Sigmascape.
Stop victmizing BLM.
Again, stop.

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

Dude, all the posts I've seen you posting in this thread have very poor arguments/make no sense at all.
Stop embarrassing yourself.
Well we had BLM first in ALL the Final Coil fights.
We had BLM first in BOTH Gordias and Midas and some fights of creator.
We had no SMN first in Deltascape.
We had no SMN first in UCoB.
I have no clue about Sigmascape.
Stop victmizing BLM.
Again, stop.

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Great counter argument. (its not)

While i did forget a bit on blm clearing some fights in the past, it doesn't change the relevance of where the job is currently. and if you honestly think these 2 jobs are on par when one has 371 clears of a fight, while the other has less than 10, i'm not sure where you get your metric.

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/19#b...ummoner&page=4

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/19#b...spec=BlackMage

UwU will be no different.

so actually you.
Stop.
Being.
Blind.
Again, stop.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

UwU will be no different.

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Do you think nerfing summoner would make BLM more valuable in UwU?

UwU have lower dps check. They wanted players focus more mechanics than dps. currently 4x rdms have cleared UwU and 4x SMNs. From same reason majority of players play whm over astro. WHM is totally trash dps wise. Still players prefer RDM and WHM for UwU Because it is lot easier progress that fight with these jobs.

Hey let's buff astro too

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/19#b...iteMage&page=5

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/19#b...ec=Astrologian

xd

When fights are designed for less than 1% of the player population to clear, it's natural that players with gravitate to classes which offer the least resistance during progression (and subsequent re-clears since the fights are 18+ minutes long). Not saying blm doesn't need some love, but basing your arguments off 2 pieces of content that operate on a different meta game than everything else doesn't do anymore to prove your point.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Do you think nerfing summoner would make BLM more valuable in UwU?

UwU have lower dps check. They wanted players focus more mechanics than dps. currently 4x rdms have cleared UwU and 4x SMNs. From same reason majority of players play whm over astro. WHM is totally trash dps wise. Still players prefer RDM and WHM for UwU Because it is lot easier progress that fight with these jobs.

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honestly i just want blm to get a buff to the point its a viable option (in ult). be that from a noticeable dps gain over smn, or letting them have some kind of unique group utility again.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

honestly i just want blm to get a buff to the point its a viable option (in ult). be that from a noticeable dps gain over smn, or letting them have some kind of unique group utility again.

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BLM have already get buffed like 200+ dps and summoner have get nerfed around 100 dps from UCOB. It does not matter even if blm is top dps, players want raise for ultimate progress. It not matter how much is your dps once you practice. It not matter if you mana become 0 and you can not dps. What matter is you can practice the boss mechanics little longer without 10 min warmp up every time. Nobody want BLM during progressing long fights like ultimate. As long BLM not have raise it is poor state in progress if you dont play with second caster. BLM is totally viable in ultimate, but nobody want it during progress.

Raise isn't the biggest reason BLM is poor for progression; it's because of how intimately one needs to know the fight so they know where to stand to maximize their dps. A BLM who doesn't know where or how to stand will always do less dps than a SMN, and in a lot of cases even RDM.