How I wish Eureka was

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colino

Of course. That might have something to do with the fact that it's not ex/savage content.

---

I bet their mailbox is full because there are no instant death mechanics involved in talking to the moogle.

There's no need to be rude guys. Come on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Well, to be fair, you're well overgeared for A1S by now that I would hope some mechanics could be skipped at level 70 with a high ilvl of 340~360. When A1S was first released though? It was anything but easy.

Don't forget that when Anima was first released with the light phase, we were still level 60 in Heavensward, not 70 in Stormblood, and you still needed to pay attention to certain mechanics like the missiles with the highest DPS being around 2,000ish and average ilvl's of 270, I think...? Now, we've got people doing 6,000 bouts of DPS uptime and new abilities and job gauges.

We didn't have Echo then either and now we do! So, a lot has changed with the light phase now as opposed to when Anima relics were first introduced which I believe is what Rokke was getting at.

---

Actually, you didn't. A1S was a complete faceroll by the time light farming released. He could kill you if people spread puddles all over the place, but even that required actual effort. There's a reason 5-6 DPS parties were routinely common.

What opens up now though is A9S farming. Since you actually had to do mechanics back in Heavensward, people rarely wanted to bother. Nowadays, he's a joke with a decently competent group.

I don't comment on the mechanics because SE in general never really uses player ones to that level.

The hard stuff for people who want it though would just turn eureka into savage and normal happening in the same zone, and kind of removes something players can do together. And you'd run into the issues of finding people who want to do it, if there's the same divide between players who do savage and casual, in a 150 man instance.

I mean, this is more relax and chill out content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Actually, you didn't. A1S was a complete faceroll by the time light farming released. He could kill you if people spread puddles all over the place, but even that required actually effort. There's a reason 5-6 DPS parties were routinely common.

What opens up now though is A9S farming. Since you actually had to do mechanics back in Heavensward, people rarely wanted to bother. Nowadays, he's a joke with a decently competent group.

---

I must have been in some bad parties a while back then since it always seemed like we never had a problem with puddles, but missiles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

There's no need to be rude guys. Come on.

---

The OP's hardcore fronting is as off-putting as it gets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Floortank

The OP's hardcore fronting is as off-putting as it gets.

---

It doesn't and shouldn't matter? I'm a casual raider myself, nothing hardcore about me, but even I can see and say that Eureka gets boring at lvl 20 and wasn't perfectly designed. It could use a little more challenge or something else besides what it is. There's nothing wrong with pushing out new ideas that may or may not possibly work, that's up to the devs.

But stagnating creativity only hurts things, not helps. Disagreeing is fine, but it doesn't hurt to offer what you'd do better or want to see either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

It could use a little more challenge or something else besides what it is.

---

People say this, but idk.

I mean, i agree it needed to be designed better, but I played FFXI, and challenging there meant a lot of nights with no progress or going backwards. Savage you just don't progress if you fail a night, but you don't delevel if you do; when you have that, it makes things a lot nastier because now someone just made a lot more work for you to catch up on. In this game you never have to give up on an instance just because you can't even get there, for example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Floortank

Savage level raiders already have plenty of content tailored to them that no one else can achieve. Relics level the playing field.

---

End of discussion guys, we're completely spoiled by getting 4 fights every 6 months. /s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

End of discussion guys, we're completely spoiled by getting 4 fights every 6 months. /s

---

A lot of the raiding playerbase can't even beat all 4 of those fights in those 6 months. Most can't beat the optional ultrahard fight that is supposed to be for when you do beat all of them. Not sure what they could do for you, it seems like there are some seriously hard limits on what they can do with 8 man fights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

People say this, but idk.

I mean, i agree it needed to be designed better, but I played FFXI, and challenging there meant a lot of nights with no progress or going backwards. Savage you just don't progress if you fail a night, but you don't delevel if you do; when you have that, it makes things a lot nastier because now someone just made a lot more work for you to catch up on. In this game you never have to give up on an instance just because you can't even get there, for example.

---

I've never played FFXI, but my fiance has, however, I have played things like vanilla Ragnarok Online. I have heard horror stories about FFXI such as farming Absolute Virtue, 1% drop rates on items needed for a sequence of quests to even start a NM, their version of Ixion, etc. I don't really consider tedious grinds to be challenging content because anyone with the time and effort can achieve them, if anything, I'd consider grinds to be challenging on one's patience entirely. But, once you hit level 20, it's almost impossible to delevel unless people in your party hate you or you're on your own, and even then if you request a rez more than likely someone will come along and help you out. There's really nothing to do at level 20 besides follow the NM train or just stand around and AFK until wraiths are up. That's not good design. I mean, I have 4 relics now and my SO has all of them, he's not really going for the gear until he sees the next step involved and even if he did? Then what? After you have the mount, Anemos relics, and gear? What then? What's the point of going back to Eureka?

A long grind isn't challenging in skill, but mostly time and patience. I just think that some people are moving away from that era of gaming. I look back on my days of playing Ragnarok Online and wondered how I even found that mess of a grind remotely fun. I must have been insane or bored.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

snip

---

So? Just because people don't get around to completing it doesn't mean it's enough content for that kind of playerbase. Not only that but there's zero variance for that difficulty of content.

Let's just take a look and see what "casual players" get in those 6 months:

- 3 dungeons, which have become easier and easier with every patch
- 2 trials, which outside of a couple of edge cases (Thordan/Sephirot/Shinryu), I consider casual content
- 24 man raid, which speaks for itself
- Deep dungeon, fits kinda both, but most players never touch the more difficult floors
- 4 normal mode raid fights
- relic/Eureka

Should I go on? God forbid people want something even remotely difficult that doesn't have to have the savage/ultimate tag attached to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adeacia

Relic steps are never about skill, but time.

---

This right here. I just tried out Eureka for the first time tonight. I have to say, I disliked the experience. A lot. It's clearly designed as a grind and timesink. In fact, you can even tell Krile that. "It's needlessly complicated." So, the devs know what they are doing.

For the amount of time I spent in there, I got 1.5 levels and one crystal. It takes like 50 to upgrade or get new gear, so the thought of going there every night for hours to grind with nothing to show for is making me cringe. Like, here we go with this crap again. It's easier just to do roulettes for tomestones.

Also, I was doing it solo. Which is doable, but it's clearly designed to be done in groups since all the monsters hit like mack trucks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Floortank

OP posts "I'm better than you," the thread, gets the expected levels of disdain.

---

Have you read that on which you comment? Nothing there points out a quality of player, only improvements possible through optional variance in order to increase the breadth of attraction towards a content area.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Floortank

It's simple dude, Savage level raiders already have plenty of content tailored to them that no one else can achieve. Relics level the playing field.

---

Let's say three chefs for an event or franchise have time to design 3 meals by which to meet the wants of their customers, which can be divided into 3 groups, A, B, and C.

What's most efficient, that they
(A) make three meals that are each liked by only one group, A, B, or C;
(B) make a meal liked by all three, a meal liked by two, and a meal liked only by the last;
or (C) make three meals liked by all three groups?

Option (C) may not be possible, but design should always center on doing the most to please the most to the best extent possible, not to attempting to placate community deviated by bickering feedback cycles by giving them each their portion of development time where they could have had far more if not for their tastes being defined only by juxtoposition...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Floortank

If you want a game that is built entirely around servicing the high end raiders, WOW is about to release a new expansion.

---

WoW is not a game "built entirely around servicing high end players". Less than a eighth of its population participate in upper end contents (equivalent to the more difficult and upward of our Extreme primals). It merely realized that you can build systems and content types which are lost on essentially no one (so long as they reach level cap), from the boggers of Mythic+ Invitationals, to casuals running for basic weekly rewards. Perhaps you would prefer that what is generally held as the most cost-effective adjustment ever given to an MMO in terms of reiterable content created and community stratums allowed to mix should never have occurred, for fear for casual-hardcore interaction? (Good god, what if they were to interbreed?!)

You're making a game of divisive "equality" when the content involved isn't actually zero-sum. You may as well say that you claim the color blue for your dungeon color palette, so hardcore players can gt*o, while be satisfied with losing red and green to midcore and hardcore, respectively. When development can intercept, being applicable to multiple groups with the same underlying art assets, etc., it should. It saves time, and therefore allows for more content for everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Should I go on? God forbid people want something even remotely difficult that doesn't have to have the savage/ultimate tag attached to it.

---

"casual players" are the large majority of the playerbase, so of course that's the case.

You're somehow implying that SE should spend the same amount of resources when making content for 90% of the playerbase and 10% of the playerbase.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colino

"casual players" are the large majority of the playerbase, so of course that's the case.

You're somehow implying that SE should spend the same amount of resources when making content for 90% of the playerbase and 10% of the playerbase.

---

Well, people can be a casual player and still raid at the same time. So, I don't think either or is exclusive to each other? SE should cater towards it's entire playerbase, mind you, as alienating any of your customers is a bad business practice as we can all attest to with the All 24-Man Greed and lack of official translations with the Live Letters for anyone not native to Japan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colino

You're somehow implying that SE should spend the same amount of resources when making content for 90% of the playerbase and 10% of the playerbase.

---

Not in the slightest. I'm just saying that four encounters every 6 months isn't "plenty", like the guy I quoted is suggesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

every 6 months

---

7 months actually

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

Honestly, I didnt like the majority of what you were trying to propose, some things didnt make any sense, and most of it sounds like you were trying to complicate things for the sake of being complicated, like the bleed which adds nothing to the system.

---

Let me ask this a different way then: What do you think my design intent is? My goal here isn't to "add complexity" for the sake of complexity, so if you truly believe that, it's because you don't understand the vision (which is fair), which means I failed in conveying my thoughts. So I'd like the opportunity to rectify that.

You only gave one example of something you didn't like, which was the Fire weather pattern where the thematic intent is that the heat saps your health away over time. The intent of this weather pattern is ensure healers have it on their mind, as well as offer up the ability to use the magia board to offset this pattern. I.e. (use Fire to reduce the damage and get the "HoT effect" or use Water to shield it). Did you not take into consideration the Magia board or were you strictly envisioning the change in a vacuum (i.e. new weather, with existing magia/monsters)?

Your average player working solo or doing AFK NM's would not be affected significantly.

Quote:

---

I also disagree with this need you have to make it more like the savage raid or somehow involve Savage as required for completing Eureka. It should be the other way around (and it is). Its not supposed to be hard, just lengthy. If you want something to challenge you beyond EX/Savage they have already put that in, its called the Ultimate raid.

---

The issue I have with this statement is that it's one dimensional. Just because the relic has been a mindless long grind previously doesn't mean it can't have other avenues. Ultimate isn't for everyone and isn't the solution to the problem. I don't necessarily need "more challenging" than EX/Savage, what I need is for other content forms to offer a SIMILAR challenge thus increasing the quantity of content for consumption. The framework already exists and supplanting further options into that is the easiest, and most cost effective approach.

Quote:

---

Nothing. The problem is the player base is constantly looking for the path of least resistance. Tell me, If you could do something one way with minimal effort or another way thats challenging, why would anyone take the challenging path?

---

The path of least resistance for YOU might not be the same as me. In fact, It's probably a lot easier for me to focus on the harder higher impact content to get done sooner.

Here's a fictitious scenario: I have 3 hours a week to play and I want to do my relic. You have 15 hours a week to play. As it stands now, you'll finish significantly faster than I would. That's because the content designed is derivative. If there was an alternative method that was harder, but more rewarding I could participate in that (thus enjoying my time more) and still maintain relevancy. You'd be surprised at just how many people would be interested in this. It isn't just me.

Quote:

---

It also occurred to me that some of your style of suggestions are already in there. I think its numbers (?) That summons a "Void" that needs to be targeted and destroyed (secondary target to liven up the fights) but no one seems to even bother with it anymore, same with any adds in the vicinity. So how do you expect a raid full of players to actually use any kind of group tactic?

---

Well ignoring these things on the monsters I designed wouldn't be good. I expect people participating in this content form to be intelligent enough to make good decisions or get on the same page pretty quickly. That's why they're EX/Savage players. If they weren't this method wouldn't be better for them, and they'd shift to the existing methods. Thus working as intended.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colino

Of course. That might have something to do with the fact that it's not ex/savage content.

---

If you bothered to read the OP, you'd have seen that I mentioned that I believe designing content for specifically one subset of player as inefficient/sub-optimal. You're more than welcome to debate my analysis as to whether that's right/wrong and why, but until then do you have any actual input on the content therein? Anything you liked/dislike and why?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Floortank

OP posts "I'm better than you," the thread, gets the expected levels of disdain.

It's simple dude, Savage level raiders already have plenty of content tailored to them that no one else can achieve. Relics level the playing field.

If you want a game that is built entirely around servicing the high end raiders, WOW is about to release a new expansion.

---

Nice man. Really constructive post. Lots of really deep insight and analysis.

Mind sharing where I said or implied "I'm better than you"?

How about taking the time to actually read the OP and cite some specific examples of things you liked/disliked and WHY.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I don't comment on the mechanics because SE in general never really uses player ones to that level.

The hard stuff for people who want it though would just turn eureka into savage and normal happening in the same zone, and kind of removes something players can do together. And you'd run into the issues of finding people who want to do it, if there's the same divide between players who do savage and casual, in a 150 man instance.

I mean, this is more relax and chill out content.

---

So - you have absolutely no input whatsoever on ANYthing I designed? None?

If that's truly the case (I'm disappointed), then I'll ask why do you think it's bad to have savage and normal in the same zone? You cite the example of "finding people" or skill segregation, but I don't consider those issues. I consider that a good thing. I don't want to play with AFK people or grind nameless mobs. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Floortank

The OP's hardcore fronting is as off-putting as it gets.

---

Just out of curiosity how many hours a week would you say that you play this game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

End of discussion guys, we're completely spoiled by getting 4 fights every 6 months. /s

---

LOL.

Any chance you had any input on the actual content therein? I'd be interested to hear it. Likes/dislikes, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colino

"casual players" are the large majority of the playerbase, so of course that's the case.

You're somehow implying that SE should spend the same amount of resources when making content for 90% of the playerbase and 10% of the playerbase.

---

How much do you know about SDLC with regards to timing and cost? This will help me frame my response in a way that you'll understand.

Sorry OP, I was too busy being snarky to give my input earlier.

I do like the idea of weather effects, however certain things such as the persistent damage over time is not what I had in mind. Now that I mention it, I did comment to a friend how disappointed I was when I ran into a tornado and it didn't do anything. Perhaps just keeping it simple such as elemental weaknesses/strengths are modified in certain weather? For example, if it's raining, water element mobs become stronger and slightly more resistant to lightning? Gales giving mobs a haste buff? It's more challenging and makes you pick your battles more wisely, but it's not so difficult it excludes people of a...certain demographic.

The magia board in general could use some work, as right now it's simple stack 5x in one element and switch as needed. Perhaps some dual aspected enemies might spice that up, I don't know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Let me ask this a different way then: What do you think my design intent is? My goal here isn't to "add complexity" for the sake of complexity, so if you truly believe that, it's because you don't understand the vision (which is fair), which means I failed in conveying my thoughts. So I'd like the opportunity to rectify that.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Neither of these qualify as engaging for a ex/savage quality player IMO.

So, why does Eureka not have ANYTHING in it to engage a stronger player?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Just because the relic has been a mindless long grind previously doesn't mean it can't have other avenues. Ultimate isn't for everyone and isn't the solution to the problem. I don't necessarily need "more challenging" than EX/Savage, what I need is for other content forms to offer a SIMILAR challenge thus increasing the quantity of content for consumption. The framework already exists and supplanting further options into that is the easiest, and most cost effective approach.

---

The thing is, as you even said yourself, Relic is a long grind and always has been. Because that what this content is, its the casual alternative to Savage content. I get you want to have more savage level content, I support that, but this is not that content. The latter half of Heaven on High will be something closer to what you are looking for I think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Here's a fictitious scenario: I have 3 hours a week to play and I want to do my relic. You have 15 hours a week to play. As it stands now, you'll finish significantly faster than I would. That's because the content designed is derivative. If there was an alternative method that was harder, but more rewarding I could participate in that (thus enjoying my time more) and still maintain relevancy. You'd be surprised at just how many people would be interested in this. It isn't just me.

The path of least resistance for YOU might not be the same as me. In fact, It's probably a lot easier for me to focus on the harder higher impact content to get done sooner.

---

The problem is if the harder, higher impact content gets the job done measurably sooner then that becomes the path of least resistance, everyone flocks to it, and eventually renders any other method of doing it near impossible. Like eureka currently is, I don't think the NM train is what was intended by the devs, but here we are. I dont think this is a new concept either, players have been ruining games this way since their inception.

To speak to the 3 hours vs 15 hours, thats why there is savage. I have 15 hours but less skill. I need the gear from Eureka to get me closer to the right ilev to even attempt savage. Whereas you with 3 hours and more skill have been able to tackle savage and get the good gear from that which only make things easier for you. Not only that but as a savage level player you are able to get that much higher tier a whole patch earlier meaning I can t even attempt Savage untill a patch or two later when the Ilev gap gets smaller.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

You only gave one example of something you didn't like, which was the Fire weather pattern where the thematic intent is that the heat saps your health away over time. The intent of this weather pattern is ensure healers have it on their mind, as well as offer up the ability to use the magia board to offset this pattern. I.e. (use Fire to reduce the damage and get the "HoT effect" or use Water to shield it). Did you not take into consideration the Magia board or were you strictly envisioning the change in a vacuum (i.e. new weather, with existing magia/monsters)?

---

Yes, I took that into account, i also mentioned that unless the mechanics you are theorizing become mandatory, no one will bother with them. How many times have you seen a party completely ignore boss mechanics if they were not a real threat or otherwise forced on them. I like that you are trying to involve the magia board and make it more than the simplistic arbitrary feature it currently is, I hope that will come in the next Eureka. And the whole have a HoT to counter a DoT and water shields, IS adding complexity for complexity sake. Are you proposing all this mitigation to be on the onus of the healer or on the individual player? All on the healer, no on will want to do it cause if they dont keep up on it they will be constantly yelled at. All on the individual, you will have healers pissed off that they arent mitigating their damage (get out of the fire!!!).

Your suggestions are neat and admirable but I dont feel you will get the results you are hoping for if it was released to the public. I would be very curious how many times you have run a normal dungeon on the minimum ilev setting? Reason being is I'm betting its 0 times (or once just to see), that feature has been there forever and adds nothing to the player experience because it sits unused. We have enough of this in the game already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Well ignoring these things on the monsters I designed wouldn't be good. I expect people participating in this content form to be intelligent enough to make good decisions or get on the same page pretty quickly. That's why they're EX/Savage players. If they weren't this method wouldn't be better for them, and they'd shift to the existing methods. Thus working as intended.

---

You severely overestimate the average player... First, its hard enough to get people to not stand in the AOE's but as soon as you start adding in un-telegraphed moves all hell breaks loose. Just look at how frequent complaints are about people being kicked from a dungeon for missing one move or simply on the perception they are not playing 100%. Look at the Rabernastre raid boss Haschmel, that is also mid core content. Do i really need to spell out how this is going to work in Eureka? Try mitigating all your cool ideas when the boss occasionally popps out of view or you cant even see whats going on because 100 other people are also hammering on it, it would be like trying to heard 100 white cats in a blizzard...

If Eureka was something that was tighter managed, like all the other content, it might be feasible to implement some of these ideas but this is a pipe dream. Yet here we are arguing over a fictitious idea that will never be implemented and you seem offended you arent getting the feedback you wanted on it. Sorry if its not being hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread and people arent fawning over the ideas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

If you bothered to read the OP, you'd have seen that I mentioned that I believe designing content for specifically one subset of player as inefficient/sub-optimal. You're more than welcome to debate my analysis as to whether that's right/wrong and why, but until then do you have any actual input on the content therein? Anything you liked/dislike and why?

If that's truly the case (I'm disappointed), then I'll ask why do you think it's bad to have savage and normal in the same zone? You cite the example of "finding people" or skill segregation, but I don't consider those issues. I consider that a good thing. I don't want to play with AFK people or grind nameless mobs. I don't see anything wrong with that.

---

The thing is it will only work if they split the instance, like they did with the Normal mode Alex and the Savage Alex, have a completely separate instance with the set of rules you want but I can tell you right now if the rewards for both are exactly the same, no one will do the hard mode, at least not in the number that would make it worthwhile. If you are going to have separate rewards, what would those rewards look like?

As much as I may be knocking on your idea, its because unless the players are properly motivated to do it, they wont. Already rewards in this game are pretty pointless, another couple points in STR is boring and uninspiring. A new design only motivates the people that like the design. Other than that, whats the point of gear for a reward? They could add in a mount, but even if they can add in a reward that generates interest, as soon as people get the reward, they will stop doing it.

Anyway, I think we have both wasted enough of our time discussing this fictitious scenario. While its been fun to kill time, theres nothing more I can really say about it. There are some neat ideas that could be used as boss mechanics for a dungeon but will not work as you envision in the Eureka setting.

FF12 weathers had them affecting elemental effectiveness, heat waves amplified fire dmg for example.
I do wonder if the new system will be just that, making the effect of elements stronger during certain weather and as such making enemies more dangerous than usual

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

So - you have absolutely no input whatsoever on ANYthing I designed? None?

If that's truly the case (I'm disappointed), then I'll ask why do you think it's bad to have savage and normal in the same zone? You cite the example of "finding people" or skill segregation, but I don't consider those issues. I consider that a good thing. I don't want to play with AFK people or grind nameless mobs. I don't see anything wrong with that.

---

Generally the more specific the design, the less likely it will be used because of legal issues. SE generally only uses player designs in very limited ways, like in gear design contests (which are dominated by close to professional grade people anyways.) So building a very specific system generally fails and criticizing it wont help in any real sense. This is why all of the "here's is my design for blue mage" threads tend to be pointless imo; it's nice as a thought exercise, but SE goes their own way.

As for it being bad, it was more that given percentages of people doing it offline, you might not get enough people willing to do savage at all. I mean, its hard enough to get people to farm wraiths, how many people are going to want to go and farm HARD wraiths? You'd run into issues designing content for anything more than 8-man, and then it's just another open world savage, with the added benefit of having to get there and an exp grind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

The problem is if the harder, higher impact content gets the job done measurably sooner then that becomes the path of least resistance, everyone flocks to it, and eventually renders any other method of doing it near impossible. Like eureka currently is, I don't think the NM train is what was intended by the devs, but here we are. I dont think this is a new concept either, players have been ruining games this way since their inception.

---

The efficiency gap, where available, has never been so large as to exclude less difficult content types from popularity.

Consider light farming, for instance. Some groups would speedrun Savage raids for maximal efficiency, but they were few and far between compared to those grinding light through less difficult means. The margin of efficiency necessary to actually force into common practice new difficulty levels (especially towards increased difficulty) isn't just the moment it becomes "measurable"; it's far closer to "massively significant". And short of common practice being affected, what should it matter to you? So Savage raiders go do something else to more quickly, though with greater total effort, acquire the gear that has far lesser relative value to them, given their post-prog gear levels. So what? Now let's say those who can farm Extreme primals by week 2 also go that route. So what? At most, the time it takes you to PF a run of the lesser content is faintly, faintly affected, in the realm of starting 20 minutes before or after the relevant peak time that day when the activity is nearly continuous. Only by the time those you would otherwise be partying with are taking the alternative choice will you be affected. And we've yet to see an efficiency bonus so huge that players who normally wouldn't touch upper-end content would feel obliged to attempt content that has been given variation or scaling to allow upper-content runners to be more wholly entertained.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

You severely overestimate the average player...

---

[In response to a quote that specifically says Ex/Savage players...]

????

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The efficiency gap, where available, has never been so large as to exclude less difficult content types from popularity.

Consider light farming, for instance. Some groups would speedrun Savage raids for maximal efficiency, but they were few and far between compared to those grinding light through less difficult means. The margin of efficiency necessary to actually force into common practice new difficulty levels (especially towards increased difficulty) isn't just the moment it becomes "measurable"; it's far closer to "massively significant". And short of common practice being affected, what should it matter to you? So Savage raiders go do something else to more quickly, though with greater total effort, acquire the gear that has far lesser relative value to them, given their post-prog gear levels. So what? Now let's say those who can farm Extreme primals by week 2 also go that route. So what? At most, the time it takes you to PF a run of the lesser content is faintly, faintly affected, in the realm of starting 20 minutes before or after the relevant peak time that day when the activity is nearly continuous. Only by the time those you would otherwise be partying with are taking the alternative choice will you be affected. And we've yet to see an efficiency bonus so huge that players who normally wouldn't touch upper-end content would feel obliged to attempt content that has been given variation or scaling to allow upper-content runners to be more wholly entertained.



[In response to a quote that specifically says Ex/Savage players...]

????

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

The thing is it will only work if they split the instance, like they did with the Normal mode Alex and the Savage Alex, have a completely separate instance with the set of rules you want but I can tell you right now if the rewards for both are exactly the same, no one will do the hard mode, at least not in the number that would make it worthwhile. If you are going to have separate rewards, what would those rewards look like?

As much as I may be knocking on your idea, its because unless the players are properly motivated to do it, they wont. Already rewards in this game are pretty pointless, another couple points in STR is boring and uninspiring. A new design only motivates the people that like the design. Other than that, whats the point of gear for a reward? They could add in a mount, but even if they can add in a reward that generates interest, as soon as people get the reward, they will stop doing it.

Anyway, I think we have both wasted enough of our time discussing this fictitious scenario. While its been fun to kill time, theres nothing more I can really say about it. There are some neat ideas that could be used as boss mechanics for a dungeon but will not work as you envision in the Eureka setting.

---

Regardless of how anyone wishes Eureka was, its not going to drastically change design like this since its already past the concept phase. Best we can hope for is the next Eureka to already have some more involved systems and branching paths designed into them but that's a give in as far as I'm concerned. The next Isle hopefully wont be the same as the first, if it is, then its clear to me the company is creatively bankrupt.

If it requires thought then majority won't like it. I like it though. Wish this game wasn't so braindead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

then its clear to me the company is creatively bankrupt.

---

It is bad though? A certian company has been creatively bankrupt since inception and still pretty popular also a certain game was universally praised while beign essentially nothing new, shouldn't we ask for actually good working content instead of creative one?

While I don't think Eureka needs to be "harder" for the sake of it, I do wish some sort of content would not be a slightly different version of what we already have. It's not about the difficulty, it's the redundancy. Why are we always killing endless trash to spawn a boss and melt it down? How engaging can this possibly be when we've already had hunts and two different versions of Diadem?

Supposedly people asked for this so I won't say it's useless content. It just seems like so much wasted time and potential (and our money?) on something only a minority of players seem to enjoy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Sorry OP, I was too busy being snarky to give my input earlier.

I do like the idea of weather effects, however certain things such as the persistent damage over time is not what I had in mind. Now that I mention it, I did comment to a friend how disappointed I was when I ran into a tornado and it didn't do anything. Perhaps just keeping it simple such as elemental weaknesses/strengths are modified in certain weather? For example, if it's raining, water element mobs become stronger and slightly more resistant to lightning? Gales giving mobs a haste buff? It's more challenging and makes you pick your battles more wisely, but it's not so difficult it excludes people of a...certain demographic.

The magia board in general could use some work, as right now it's simple stack 5x in one element and switch as needed. Perhaps some dual aspected enemies might spice that up, I don't know.

---

lol - I saw.

When you saw the Heatwave effect (HP drain weather pattern) did you think about its applications and counters? It's easily reversible by simply equipping Fire or Water in your Magia board (Fire will reduces its incoming damage as well as provide a HoT effect). Water, provides a persistent shield that eats the damage.

The idea would be that this effect in a vacuum (to players strictly only focusing on NM trains/soloing mobs) would hardly be affected. The effects would only truly be dangerous if you were hunting the dangerous monsters I designed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

The thing is, as you even said yourself, Relic is a long grind and always has been. Because that what this content is, its the casual alternative to Savage content. I get you want to have more savage level content, I support that, but this is not that content. The latter half of Heaven on High will be something closer to what you are looking for I think.

---

So to be clear - you think it's ok that "casual" players get normal mode alternative to savage, but savage/ex players get no alternative to relic? You recited the same point I already rallied against. I VERY STRONGLY disagree that just because something was X in the past means it cannot be X + Y in the future.

I didn't care for PotD much (and won't if HoH is the same). It's boring content to look at and play through and heavily gated by RNG, not skill. This actually kind of helps support my point though. The development that went towards HoH could easily have been applied to Eureka thus giving savage/ex players something to do in there. They could have then taken the time to ensure HoH had ample content for both "casual" and "hardcore" (I HATE using these words as a measure of skill btw, hence the parenthesis).

Quote:

---

The problem is if the harder, higher impact content gets the job done measurably sooner then that becomes the path of least resistance, everyone flocks to it, and eventually renders any other method of doing it near impossible. Like eureka currently is, I don't think the NM train is what was intended by the devs, but here we are. I dont think this is a new concept either, players have been ruining games this way since their inception.

---

Wait - so you're implying that someone who's never set foot in savage is going to drop the mob chains/FATEs to participate because it's the path of least resistance? You realize that's incredibly inaccurate right?

Quote:

---

To speak to the 3 hours vs 15 hours, thats why there is savage. I have 15 hours but less skill. I need the gear from Eureka to get me closer to the right ilev to even attempt savage. Whereas you with 3 hours and more skill have been able to tackle savage and get the good gear from that which only make things easier for you. Not only that but as a savage level player you are able to get that much higher tier a whole patch earlier meaning I can t even attempt Savage untill a patch or two later when the Ilev gap gets smaller.

---

I asked this to another poster, but they ignored me because it didn't fit their agenda.

Imagine this scenario:

Relic weapon models are now a reward from Savage. No more glows, or unique models for Relics. You get dyeable normal mode raiding weapons now for completing relic quests.

Are you ok with this?

Quote:

---

Yes, I took that into account, i also mentioned that unless the mechanics you are theorizing become mandatory, no one will bother with them. How many times have you seen a party completely ignore boss mechanics if they were not a real threat or otherwise forced on them.

---

They are mandatory.

Quote:

---

And the whole have a HoT to counter a DoT and water shields, IS adding complexity for complexity sake. Are you proposing all this mitigation to be on the onus of the healer or on the individual player? All on the healer, no on will want to do it cause if they dont keep up on it they will be constantly yelled at. All on the individual, you will have healers pissed off that they arent mitigating their damage (get out of the fire!!!).

---

Your element is a decision you as a player make depending on the effect you want/need, the mobs element, and the weather. If people aren't intelligently swapping they'll eventually die.

Quote:

---

I would be very curious how many times you have run a normal dungeon on the minimum ilev setting? Reason being is I'm betting its 0 times (or once just to see), that feature has been there forever and adds nothing to the player experience because it sits unused. We have enough of this in the game already.

---

Other than the beginning of each expansion (for instance, I cleared Susano EX in i297 gear and had to cheat the ilvl to enter)? Never. It's a useless thing that offers nothing. However, this has absolutely nothing to do with my concept.

Quote:

---

You severely overestimate the average player... First, its hard enough to get people to not stand in the AOE's but as soon as you start adding in un-telegraphed moves all hell breaks loose. Just look at how frequent complaints are about people being kicked from a dungeon for missing one move or simply on the perception they are not playing 100%.

---

I mean, I've been playing since 2.1 and I've never once seen someone get kicked for missing a single move...Then again, you're still missing the point. It's clear I didn't make this clear.

This piece of content has absolutely no bearing on ANYONE who wants to currently work on mob chains or FATE NM trains. You will still continue to do that.

What will change is that some players will focus on something else that's actually fun to them.

Quote:

---

Try mitigating all your cool ideas when the boss occasionally popps out of view or you cant even see whats going on because 100 other people are also hammering on it, it would be like trying to heard 100 white cats in a blizzard...

---

Not sure if I mentioned it, but the mobs would be only available to fight by the party that spawned them. It wouldn't be zergable.

Quote:

---

Yet here we are arguing over a fictitious idea that will never be implemented and you seem offended you arent getting the feedback you wanted on it. Sorry if its not being hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread and people arent fawning over the ideas.

---

Your feedback was fine until this little bit. I'm not offended at all. I was defending my concept. I'm not perfect, there are obviously ways this could be improved. All I've asked for is for people to quantify WHY they feel the way they do and to go into detail.

Quote:

---

The thing is it will only work if they split the instance, like they did with the Normal mode Alex and the Savage Alex, have a completely separate instance with the set of rules you want but I can tell you right now if the rewards for both are exactly the same, no one will do the hard mode, at least not in the number that would make it worthwhile. If you are going to have separate rewards, what would those rewards look like?

---

Why would the instance need to be split? Why would the rules need to be different? It can easily exist in the same area based on the rules I outlined.

I already kind of outlined the rewards. It would allow me a savage/ex player to participate in content that is more challenging and would allow me to accrue resources more quickly than someone who chose the "easy/mindless" way. It allows me to have MY version of mine while you have yours and we both head to the same goal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remedi

It is bad though? A certian company has been creatively bankrupt since inception and still pretty popular also a certain game was universally praised while beign essentially nothing new, shouldn't we ask for actually good working content instead of creative one?

---

What company are you referencing as being creatively bankrupt since inception? You referencing FF14 and just trying to not get banned lol?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bahati

While I don't think Eureka needs to be "harder" for the sake of it, I do wish some sort of content would not be a slightly different version of what we already have. It's not about the difficulty, it's the redundancy. Why are we always killing endless trash to spawn a boss and melt it down? How engaging can this possibly be when we've already had hunts and two different versions of Diadem?

Supposedly people asked for this so I won't say it's useless content. It just seems like so much wasted time and potential (and our money?) on something only a minority of players seem to enjoy.

---

Eureka isn't getting harder. It's merely the opening of a new more challenging/engaging avenue. You can still go about it the old way, i.e. mindless zerg/mob chains, of if you like challenging stuff you can try hunting the hard monsters and accrue stuff more quickly (if you're actually killing them).

Was referring to activision-blizzard, and blizzard games in general, they are hardly ever creative, they were simply good to play.

Just like God of war, it's not creative in any shape or form, it's simply a good game, true it's a new take for the franchise and could be seen as new spin on it, but some might actually not like it for that, nevertheless it is a well crafted game and that's my point, we shouldn't ask for innovation, creativity or such we should ask for GOOD content as in it feels good to play and makes me want to spend my time even if it's just me playing a legend of zelda skin a god of war skin

Quote:

---

Why would the instance need to be split? Why would the rules need to be different? It can easily exist in the same area based on the rules I outlined.

I already kind of outlined the rewards. It would allow me a savage/ex player to participate in content that is more challenging and would allow me to accrue resources more quickly than someone who chose the "easy/mindless" way. It allows me to have MY version of mine while you have yours and we both head to the same goal.

---

It would have to be split so you would have enough people interested in doing it to fulfill the mechanics.

Like you might need 20-25 ppl to do hard eureka smoothly. That's 1/6th on an instance, but thats probably pretty close to the total percentage of players who like hard content, 1/6th of 70s. So you'd risk not getting enough people, or keeping parties going when key roles leave. Having a hard server at least gets all the people on the same page.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remedi

Was referring to activision-blizzard, and blizzard games in general, they are hardly ever creative, they were simply good to play.

Just like God of war, it's not creative in any shape or form, it's simply a good game, true it's a new take for the franchise and could be seen as new spin on it, but some might actually not like it for that, nevertheless it is a well crafted game and that's my point, we shouldn't ask for innovation, creativity or such we should ask for GOOD content as in it feels good to play and makes me want to spend my time even if it's just me playing a legend of zelda skin a god of war skin

---

I don't know about good to play seem very boring to be honest...God of war was just a rip off Dante's infernal, which pretty much was a Devil May Cry,
which in turn was probably a rip off something else. They were not that good, from my perspective and everyone has different taste. Blizzard good lol funny.

Believe it or not they were good once, they had good value proposition for example as in they were complete games, before they started chopping them off to maximise profit (SC2 campaigns) or stripping them to the bare bones (Overwatch aka lootbox simulator) to the point they don't represent their quality of old anymore.
Frankly I'm probably one of the most haded guy on blizzard products to the point I can safely say I'm a bit biased on them, but there was a time were blizzard name meant quality now not anymore

As far creativity goes, half their games are RTS more or less of the same kind, while the others are essentially refined versions of pre existing experiences, even OW is a mesh of existing games and probably the most creative game they had, if anything they are good painters since the coat of paint they use tend to make you forget about the core of the game and their seeking the casual market was what made them really popular (even though some of their games mechanics allowed them to had an hardcore fanbase for example SC broodwar and the structure of the game beign still very popular in KR).

Point is sometimes you don't need to be very smart of creative to succed, you need only to be good at what you are doing to make a good game and if SE instead of focusing toward something they seem to not be able to do start focusing on refining the content in the game they might have more success or so I think, afterall everyone is right in the end

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

So to be clear - you think it's ok that "casual" players get normal mode alternative to savage, but savage/ex players get no alternative to relic? You recited the same point I already rallied against. I VERY STRONGLY disagree that just because something was X in the past means it cannot be X + Y in the future.

---

That's what I think you arent understanding. The relic is the alternative to Savage, if you want a savage alternative to the relic, umm... do savage? The whole reason we have relic is so casuals can bridge the iLev gap between regular stuff and Savage. I know what you are asking for but your reasons are nonsensical. Your alternative already exists. Savage will ALWAYS be top tier and relic will ALWAYS be a step or two under that so why do you need a more challenging way to get something that is effectively just glamor for you? Seems like you are trying to make things more challenging just for the sake of having a challenge. (which isnt necessarily a bad thing) I mean, they cant even have more than one pathway through a dungeon, what makes you think they would split the path in something like eureka?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

I didn't care for PotD much (and won't if HoH is the same). It's boring content to look at and play through and heavily gated by RNG, not skill. This actually kind of helps support my point though. The development that went towards HoH could easily have been applied to Eureka thus giving savage/ex players something to do in there. They could have then taken the time to ensure HoH had ample content for both "casual" and "hardcore" (I HATE using these words as a measure of skill btw, hence the parenthesis).

---

Just because you didnt like PotD does not mean it wasnt one of the most successful additions to FFXIV to date. Have you made it to floor 200? I'm casual so I only made it to about 115 before I couldnt get people together to do it. If you want to talk about wasted dev time that could have gone to something better, why not bring up Lords of Verminion, Chocobo Racing, Diadem, and 90% of the golden saucer. all of it almost completely abandoned.

Again, I wish there was a lot more endgame level stuff to do at all skill levels, something that doesnt become nerfed to pointlessness through the normal iLev progression treadmill the game is stuck in. I dont mind your ideas but I dont think they are a fit for Eureka, it would be more benificial to have its own content to support it which is why i suggested splitting Eureka into an Norm/EX versions or even call it something different all together that branches off from Eureka (so it can keep the elemental system at its core).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Wait - so you're implying that someone who's never set foot in savage is going to drop the mob chains/FATEs to participate because it's the path of least resistance? You realize that's incredibly inaccurate right?

---

Yes, kinda. Since it would be much faster to get your relic I think all the skilled players will funnel towards it, the curious and lazy would tag along, and that would leave the rest unable to even do the NM train properly since they wont have enough people left to do it the "boring" way.

Let me give you a personal example. I did Eureka right out the gate, got to 20, got two full sets of gear and weapons. I believe the intent of eureka was to have multiple smaller groups of like leveled players grinding mobs of an appropriate level in a camp where they will actually be gaining exp from each mob killed. Then when an NM pops, camps would break, run to the NM, engage and kill, then return to camps. That, to me, makes more sense as a piece of content. What i decided to do, since I got what i needed out of Eureka for now, was to delevel as far as I could go. That's level 10. I kept my mount and teleporting and all magia points. Now I figured I could get a group of people together of a similar level to play the game as I thought it was intended to be played. I spent three days trying to get people together to do it but no one wanted to. The exp per hour would have been higher cause you are not afk'ing and you wont be as bored since you would be actually participating.

That said, how many people do you think you could convince to come with you to take on the mythical master mobs when they could afk and get the same reward? Sure it may be quicker but it takes more effort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

I asked this to another poster, but they ignored me because it didn't fit their agenda.

Imagine this scenario:

Relic weapon models are now a reward from Savage. No more glows, or unique models for Relics. You get dyeable normal mode raiding weapons now for completing relic quests.

Are you ok with this?

I already kind of outlined the rewards. It would allow me a savage/ex player to participate in content that is more challenging and would allow me to accrue resources more quickly than someone who chose the "easy/mindless" way. It allows me to have MY version of mine while you have yours and we both head to the same goal.

Why would the instance need to be split? Why would the rules need to be different? It can easily exist in the same area based on the rules I outlined.

---

I need more information on your scenario.
"Relic weapon models are now a reward from Savage"
- so the current end relic will be the reward from savage? What will its iLev be? Would this mean there are not two rewards from Savage, would it still have the usual Savage rewards? You really want more duplicate gear in the game than we already have?
"You get dyeable normal mode raiding weapons now for completing relic quests."
- What iLev will it be? (because this is important, its the reason we have relic as a casual alternative to savage)

So to speak to your scenario as I think i understand it relic and Savage will have their current ilev tiers but the rewards will look the same but the casual mode will be dyable? I guess I would be ok with that but it seems like pretty bad design though and the Savage players would be the ones getting the short end of the stick with an undyeable weapon.

The reason I say split it is so both pathways have more even footing for getting to their goals. Maybe you enter Eureka and want to take your path but no one in that instance wants to. Now you are popping in and out of Eureka trying to get into an instance with people willing to do something the hard way. At least if the instances are split then you would have a much easier time of finding like minded players to do that hard content with. Still seems silly that you want a harder way to get the same thing. I would much rather have a hard mode with different rewards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

They are mandatory.

Not sure if I mentioned it, but the mobs would be only available to fight by the party that spawned them. It wouldn't be zergable.

---

So your ochu would have two tentacles and a body to kill. at one point the body would become untargetable/invulnerable, you have to kill the tentacles, then back to the body? Something would have to happen to stop people from ignoring the tentacles and just burning the body. Sounds like a fun boss fight. But watch the fur fly if you have 4 parties trying to spawn the same mob and only one party get is and just camps it. It happened all the time in 11 and FFXIV has specifically spoken out against that kind of content.

You hadnt mentioned it, or i just missed that part. That there goes against the entire over world concept that FFXIV has carefully cultivated so they can have a more "fair" game for everyone. Not saying it isnt a good idea but I figured if they didnt do it in Eureka, they wont do it at all. Dungeons/raids/primals are your best bet for a claim system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Your feedback was fine until this little bit. I'm not offended at all. I was defending my concept. I'm not perfect, there are obviously ways this could be improved. All I've asked for is for people to quantify WHY they feel the way they do and to go into detail.

---

My apologies, I may have mistaken your passion for your idea with anger for "plebs just not getting it" I hope I have been clear enough in my critique (and i'm just some random douche on the internet, you shouldnt really give a shit what I think, lol). Your ideas arent bad or impossible to implement, heck, it might make for good content for 5.0's Eureka. This game really needs to a lateral content injection and a rework of their rewards structure. All I was trying to say, and give reasons why i felt that way, is this idea of splitting Eureka into two path's is the part that wont work. Players are a hive mind in a lot of ways so once the "best way" is established by the community, that becomes the "only" way. Whether that means your way is better or the NM train is better, one way will become favored eventually leaving half the developed content wasted time.

I would like to take a moment to give you a huge THANK YOU! Even though we have both had our little digs here and there its been a great conversation. I feel I've been listened to and I hope you feel the same. Even though its huge walls of text, I think its been worth it. I recently tried engaging another poster but it was pointless since they were not listening from the get go, only trying to push their agenda and anyone who disagreed was stupid, dumb, and just didnt get it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remedi

Just like God of war, it's not creative in any shape or form, it's simply a good game, true it's a new take for the franchise and could be seen as new spin on it, but some might actually not like it for that, nevertheless it is a well crafted game and that's my point, we shouldn't ask for innovation, creativity or such we should ask for GOOD content as in it feels good to play and makes me want to spend my time even if it's just me playing a legend of zelda skin a god of war skin

---

Slightly off-topic, but this is a pet peeve of mine. In entertainment these days, so little is actually creative or original. It's all stock. But to be fair, we are to blame for that. We, the consumers. We don't reward creativity and originality with our pocketbooks. We want familiarity. We just say we want innovation.

This isn't more prevalent anywhere than it is in video games.

Well the first thing they told me when creating comics is that you shouldn't believe your idea original, some1 has already done that, we might have reached that point in games too

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remedi

Well the first thing they told me when creating comics is that you shouldn't believe your idea original, some1 has already done that, we might have reached that point in games too

---

Originality is not necessarily in the idea, but in the way you tell the story. Because I agree, we've essentially been telling the same story for the last 5000 years or so.

Just tell it differently. But unfortunately, that doesn't sell. Especially nowadays, where we are becoming stupider and stupider.

On-topic. Eureka is Guild Wars 2 with a magia board.

In GW2 there are no traditional quests. In every zone, there are multiple NPCs with hearts over their heads that you can perform a number of "tasks" for. Usually, this boils down to killing mobs until that NPC's task bar fills up. Then you are rewarded with XP and coin.

There are also other things to do in each zone to earn XP, but the best way is to join XP trains with large groups of players and run around killing outdoor bosses. Basically notorious monsters. Rinse and repeat until you level out of the zone.

That's Eureka in a nutshell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

Savage will ALWAYS be top tier and relic will ALWAYS be a step or two under that

---

You should double check your sources on that one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

Regardless of how anyone wishes Eureka was, its not going to drastically change design like this since its already past the concept phase. Best we can hope for is the next Eureka to already have some more involved systems and branching paths designed into them but that's a give in as far as I'm concerned. The next Isle hopefully wont be the same as the first, if it is, then its clear to me the company is creatively bankrupt.

---

Of course to the first, but imo it's very much worth sharpening our own creative teeth when we're given reason after reason to believe the dev team's has gnawed stale, ever-hardening design paths so long theirs have dulled.

My own hope -- as while I disagree as to the extent of the downside of split paths I do agree that it could be significant, at least for queue times and community perception of ease -- is that with improvements to or against player and mob culling, we can see a more flexible selection of places in and paths from which to play, even while keeping their various difficulties on one map. I feel like this could easily accomplish that, however, so long as there isn't such a loud community section refusing any and all increased depth of content on principal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

Just because you didnt like PotD does not mean it wasnt one of the most successful additions to FFXIV to date. Have you made it to floor 200? I'm casual so I only made it to about 115 before I couldnt get people together to do it. If you want to talk about wasted dev time that could have gone to something better, why not bring up Lords of Verminion, Chocobo Racing, Diadem, and 90% of the golden saucer. all of it almost completely abandoned.

---

Sorry for the tangential comment, but it's actually that quality that makes it stand out to me as an area of wasted potential (e.g. perhaps even due to not enough resources going into it), much like Eureka, far more than your counterexamples (which were more alike to waste by aim/principal). PotD could be incredibly fun to just about everyone, and yet it's been left massively hit-or-miss, with a huge amount of its playtime owed to its speedy leveling advantages.