The premium app is what finally made me unsub.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

My biggest complaint about the premium plan for the app, is that it allows players to move items from retainer-to-retainer directly, making it way easier to manage retainer inventories.

This is something that can't be done ingame, while it really should be.

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I honestly can't believe that anyone actually needs this unless they're that disorganised. Should it be available to do in-game? Surely! Who knows we're probably going to get this in game at some point in the future and the app is the "stress test" for the mechanic to see if it breaks anything. But that's being optimistic, and I know optimism isn't allowed in these kinds of discussions because corporations are evil and don't give a shit about us.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Since you won't let this go.

Basic economics. Any time any seller has a competitive advantage in a market they come out ahead. The premium app gives the option to hire an extra retainer.

Therefore,

All things other being equal, those willing to spend more real money in a game get more game based income. The definition of pay to win. But that also goes to retainers in general and I have an issue with that as well.

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I bought extra Retainers for inventory space because I likes to horde weapon, tier gear, tome gear, and various glamour gear.
Retainer market board is secondary and often cost me much more time and effort to list items.
As you already made your mind, I wish you are good luck for your venture in other games.
Enough said, no need to beat on a dead horse since OP already made his mind, any further argument is pointless.
Just wish him farwell.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I wish you are good luck for your venture in other games.

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Same to you. May all your rolls be good ones.

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Originally Posted by Aerlana

SE continue adding more and more way to take our money... and the 3 years old promises are always waiting...
Ok they want to make money, ok they have project for this, but clearly, projects are not for FFXIV... this is the matter

Being a company doesnt excuse to take all way money without doing promised effort, some F2P get far more morality sense than FFXIV...

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Huh...you do know what the number one rule of a business is right? this is not a charity type of business in case people have not noticed. SE has added to existing member basic content with their patches just not enough for people to be satisfied to an extend.

It's not a matter of morality, they do their part and while many may not agree it's up to us the consumer who are using a service they provided based on their terms. We don't have to play it / use what ever options they give us. IF F2P games are so great why are people comparing it to a game that is not a F2P to begin with? Just silently quit and go play something else. We the poor souls that enjoy this game and don't mind paying for things that we choose to do will waste our funds to help enhance a need that we have and SE is meeting based on their business model.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

The Fact that the consumers don't need use the app should be a simple way of saying " ok, they're a business, their main purpose is to make money, is my need being met? " It's not a failed Dilemma, rather than adding more options to mogstation they decided to be competitive like other companies that have apps. It's already sad enough that for certain aspects of the game can change based on technology.

As an example, people don't understand that technology changes and requirements change as well and players expect to have the same performance from a device that may be 10 yrs old. Then they blame the company for their lack of knowledge. All of the sudden they don't get their way they rage quit, omit things on social media just do to a poor sense of integrity, or just to be toxic.

Based on the reason that they give, they are somewhat logical. I may not agree with them, however I do understand being I work in the programming field and business field. Everyone sees their perspective, not the reality unfortunately. How we open our minds to it, do research, will shift that and placing a label as OPTIONAL just explain it as a simple way to those who lack understanding.

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However it is a failed dilemma. They know they need money to meet the expectations, but because they have the ideology of keeping everything under wraps until the last second, they generate these controversies and the drama surrounding them. Insisting on using the term optional will not change the facts of

* Need financial resources but have a horrid way to handle it in a pr effective way.
* Need better communication and proper disclosure in this regard.

While your example is educational, it is currently moot since that was the "excuse" in the ps3 limitations days, this is without addressing things like the spaghetti code with the inventory "update".

If you're on the business side of things you can't just dismiss them as rage even if a good portion of them are. Perspective is reality, some of these people see this as a cash grab and refuse to pay for it, or pay for the game anymore. Is it true? Not for you, and for me its something irrelevant, but for them it is. Labeling as optional is not a "simple way to explain it to those who lack understanding" its a simple way to say "you don't have to get this but we know you want it".

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

*snip*

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Some way to ask money to customers are more moral than others. SE clearly did choose a way that doesnt care this... nothing to see with charity or anything else. I know they have to make money.

Just, F2P are known to try to catch whales and make they pay as much as possible... While originally, subscription system didnt have this immoral way to do... FFXIV go on the 2 way same time. This is the matter.

And so, you say to go away silently? No, because i care the game. . . And FFXIV's team know i speak again and again all those shit because i care...

https://i.imgur.com/HBpD3KH.png

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Not another thread just add to existing ones your points of view have already been covered several times.... Besides it helps your cause to add to existing ones...and like any other thread quitting do to OPTIONAL services ...good riddance.

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Yeah you tell him! Quitting because of content in a 'theme park MMO' is a stupid reason! Who quits because of 'OPTIONAL' content in a 'THEME PARK' Anyway?

Why that would be like not going to disneyland because you've ridden the rides you want and they're releasing one that you don't like. /sarcasm off

Why are there so many of you incapable of understanding why there is no such thing as optional content in a game with almost all of it being optional content?

So, you unsub'd from the game over:
A) Something that in no way changes the core of the game
B) Is still in the de-bugging and testing phase of development
C) We don't know when it will actually be implemented
D) We don't know what it's final form and function will be
E) HASN'T EVEN BEEN RELEASED YET

TLDR; Drama queen

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Originally Posted by MilanFrozen

Why are there so many of you incapable of understanding why there is no such thing as optional content in a game with almost all of it being optional content?

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Option [Webster's Dictionary]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/option

1) an act of choosing

2) the power or right to choose

3) something that may be chosen

As long as SE gives you a CHOICE in whether or not to pay the extra money. It qualifies as an OPTION. Thus, it is OPTIONAL CONTENT. The only way this would NOT qualify as optional is if they made the app and it's subscription mandatory in order to subscribe to and play the game.

As I've stated in other threads, just because you don't LIKE you choices, does NOT mean you don't have a choice.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

However it is a failed dilemma. They know they need money to meet the expectations, but because they have the ideology of keeping everything under wraps until the last second, they generate these controversies and the drama surrounding them. Insisting on using the term optional will not change the facts of


* Need financial resources but have a horrid way to handle it in a pr effective way.
* Need better communication and proper disclosure in this regard.

While your example is educational, it is currently moot since that was the "excuse" in the ps3 limitations days, this is without addressing things like the spaghetti code with the inventory "update".

If you're on the business side of things you can't just dismiss them as rage even if a good portion of them are. Perspective is reality, some of these people see this as a cash grab and refuse to pay for it, or pay for the game anymore. Is it true? Not for you, and for me its something irrelevant, but for them it is. Labeling as optional is not a "simple way to explain it to those who lack understanding" its a simple way to say "you don't have to get this but we know you want it".

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You make very good points and respect your perspective. Being that the gaming industry is a competitive nature and they keep things under wrap is to avoid unnecessary competition from the start of the idea. Revealing it near the end of completions is a strategic way of maintaining an edge against competitors. ( from a business analytical perspective ) I agree it does bring out controversies within the community and lets face it drama is part of human nature no matter what in one way or another. The fact of the matter is that it is a source of revenue so yes waving a free version to entice the consumer may seem as not being fair, however it si fair play in the business world.

As for their communications and proper disclosure ( http://support.na.square-enix.com/ru...1&tag=users_en ) it is very detailed and communications are done properly that gives SE the rights to do what they are doing. They are being disclosed just misinterpreted or like some people ( if not most ) have not read them properly. Certain benefits come from certain things a good example is how we Legacy members are treated based on fee;s and housing regulations. ( http://support.na.square-enix.com/fa...la=1&kid=64539 )

As for your PS3 example, SE did offer to upgrade them if they had a PS4, they did give plenty of time to get a free upgrade version if using a PS4. Along with this they also mentioned in Fan Fare that PC systems with a 32bit system are recommended to be upgraded to 64bit based for the best experience based on technological changes. You Can use it, however we recommend a 64bit system. These were options given to the consumer and as per the terms of use section 11.8 Changes to this User Agreement it is something that entitles them to do what they are doing and we as consumers have choices. Once again we have agreed to these terms as consumers. However, many players choose not to read or even take the time to comprehend these things and just want the easy way out.

Now as for the cash and grab perspective, yes based on the user base it may seem that way, what did people expect based on so many subscribers. Would it make a huge difference if they were only 5000 players? Do the numbers of potential subscribers dignify the means of these results? No it comes with the idea and potential. What I fail to understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, why consumers see it as scheme? its a product that justifies the needs of their players with both options of subscription and free versions. If people want to pay fine, if not don't? Yet to rage quit over this, I would think as a matter of principle will only show how many hypocrites there are. We all know eventually the majority will accept the fact and just come back just on the fact that this game is meeting their current entertainment need which is really what business do to begin with. If people don't accept it this simple concept and see it as evil they are welcome to perceive that. I just wonder what is the greater evil, what SE is doing, or ignorance of blaming a company for a product that meets consumers needs and thriving from it as well.

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

As I've stated in other threads, just because you don't LIKE you choices, does NOT mean you don't have a choice.

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Actually it does mean you have no choice. That app is coming out no matter what. Are you denying that? I promise you OP has no bearing on whether it's getting released. He's perfectly entitled to not want it to affect the game and quit as a result, but that app is gonna be there whether he likes it or not. Does he have to use the app is an irrelevant question as it's existence and implementation is the root.

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Originally Posted by MilanFrozen

Actually it does mean you have no choice. *snip* Does he have to use the app is an irrelevant question as it's existence and implementation is the root.

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Your statement is so flawed it's laughable. It's the equivalent of saying Nuclear Bombs exist, so we HAVE to use them, so everyone MUST kill themselves.

1) The existence of the app has zero effect on you game experience as evidenced by the fact that a) the game has existed for over 5 years without it and b) NOTHING currently in the game is being removed and relegated to the app only.
2) You have a CHOICE whether or not to use the app, hell you have a CHOICE whether or not to even download the app.
3) IT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST YET!

You still have choices to make, maybe none that you like, but they are still choices. That is undisputable.


I want to add that I don't necessarily agree with the concepts presented for the app and have not personally decided whether or not I will use it. But people going all END OF THE WORLD over something they have a choice on, is asinine.

I dunno, sounds like a whole lot of nothing. Its not a P2W model thus far. The game offers you mounts pretty generously, and shop mounts are cosmetic mostly. Accessing and taking care of retainers remotely, while can be nifty, isnt exactly game breakingly huge. If people want that feature, why not? Those who dont have it wont be 'left in the dust'. Furthermore, has it ever struck the OP that maybe they want to move away from subs, or to generate more revenue to improve the game, they need to expand into these markets.

So long as there are no "Buy this to get special access to bosses/player content/etc" Ive no problem with them creating fun things on the side I can opt out of. Thats called player choice. Im not going to tell SE that they cant do that, becausee SE is a business, and there are people who want that stuff. Why should my views prevent other people from having things that I myself dont benefit from or that I am hurt by? You want to quit over an app you dont have to use that has some QoL features for players who buy and want those feature? Man, if thats the issue youre going to die on a hill for, maybe gaming in general isnt for you.

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

Your statement is so flawed it's laughable. It's the equivalent of saying Nuclear Bombs exist, so we HAVE to use them, so everyone MUST kill themselves.

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Man that is such a gross misrepresentation of my argument. I said the app is gonna be there no matter what. Doesn't matter whether he uses it or not. His enjoyment of the game being hindered by the app is his choice. It can be hard to understand that people go into a theme park to be entertained and leave when they aren't though. Perhaps you should take a minute to gather your thoughts?

So do we all have to buy the app to be able to play the game or what?

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

You make very good points and respect your perspective. Being that the gaming industry is a competitive nature and they keep things under wrap is to avoid unnecessary competition from the start of the idea. Revealing it near the end of completions is a strategic way of maintaining an edge against competitors. ( from a business analytical perspective ) I agree it does bring out controversies within the community and lets face it drama is part of human nature no matter what in one way or another. The fact of the matter is that it is a source of revenue so yes waving a free version to entice the consumer may seem as not being fair, however it si fair play in the business world.

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And in equal respect I ask you: Who is FFXIV really competing with? It's only other direct competitor in the same business model is WoW, and it pales when comparing sub numbers alone. The F2P MMOs? Most of them you buy the main game/expac and don't bother with subs, due to the "freemium" options.

We're not business people and we certainly can understand the "keep it a surprise". But its not, it never is because they already talk about it to a degree. A surprise would've been never expecting the app at all (or the XIV Go App to have been the real app all along). The real surprise to a number of people was never disclosing it'll come with its own business model.
And this is again, looping back to poor communication. We can address that they do it in the "legal sense" and the upgrade campaign is a good example of communication that they handled well, credit where its due, but we can also show credit where its been... interesting to see them crash and burn with their hype, let alone the recent display of "disconnect" with the western side of the community in regards to the alliance loot change

All in all, they do things right and they do things right on the legal manner and that's fine. Business be business. The rest of the points, like LL translations, the EU issue with the maid/butler promos to name a few are instances where communication is not on point. Game wise, there's plenty that has been said that hasn't met the expectations they set, housing is the best example of something that has had horrid communication issues of expectation vs result.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Now as for the cash and grab perspective, yes based on the user base it may seem that way, what did people expect based on so many subscribers. Would it make a huge difference if they were only 5000 players? Do the numbers of potential subscribers dignify the means of these results? No it comes with the idea and potential. What I fail to understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, why consumers see it as scheme? its a product that justifies the needs of their players with both options of subscription and free versions. If people want to pay fine, if not don't? Yet to rage quit over this, I would think as a matter of principle will only show how many hypocrites there are. We all know eventually the majority will accept the fact and just come back just on the fact that this game is meeting their current internment need which is really what business do to begin with. If people don't accept it a simple concept and see it as evil they are welcome to perceive that. I just wonder what is the greater evil, what SE is doing, or ignorance of blaming a company for a product that meets consumers needs and thriving from it as well.

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I think here we're overlapping and cross-sampling things

Players wanted: An app that allowed them to keep interacting with the game to a degree
Players got: exactly what they asked with a catch: money. Catch because: they weren't expecting to pay for certain features.

Company wanted: an app that addressed the request the players made.
Company gave: exactly what players asked but added a "premium" to make the service sustainable from those who're willing to pay for it and in turn, they (said players and company) get "a little extra".

The problem doesn't fall on where the ideas overlap, it where they didn't and the lack of transparency behind it. If they had said "off the bat" that it would come with costs, the consumer would've given them an early indicator of appeal. Regardless of drama, the feedback would've been early enough to consider the costs of this overall.

(the lack of) Communication is the reason: People (don't) understand what/how/why is being offered. It's not the product that its at fault. Its the communication one party is unable (albeit not incapable) of offering and the other party being unable to get the (reliable) information it needs to understand.

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Originally Posted by MilanFrozen

Actually it does mean you have no choice.

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Originally Posted by MilanFrozen

His enjoyment of the game being hindered by the app is his choice.

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Soooooo..........choice or no choice? Which is it? My whole statement is based around the premise of CHOICE. Your statements conflict severely on that matter. Maybe you should be the one gathering your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Leloa

So do we all have to buy the app to be able to play the game or what?

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No at all. Quite the opposite. You can play the game, and ALL of its essential content, just fine without ever even thinking about the app.

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

Soooooo..........choice or no choice? Which is it? My whole statement is based around the premise of CHOICE. Your statements conflict severely on that matter. Maybe you should be the one gathering your thoughts?

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You cut off this part:

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Actually it does mean you have no choice. That app is coming out no matter what.

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You're talking about options to do things. They addressed the part of "we're getting the app anyways".

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

You cut off this part:



You're talking about options to do things. They addressed the part of "we're getting the app anyways".

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So explain to me EXACTLY how the apps existence effects in anyway, shape, or form your CHOICE whether or not to use it? The only reason you even have a CHOICE is because it exists, so saying that you have no choice because it exists defy's logic.

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Originally Posted by Airget

If the Premium Sub offers something like +5% att in Duty Finder content, then fine complain, but it's not.
Pay2Win is the concept that without doing anything in-game you can buy your way to the best gear or gear that can't be obtained by other means.

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You do not see.. how what you said is conflicting?

You can get 5% attack up for duty finder content but it does not help if you do not enter the duty finder then after that, do your rotations well? THAT IS THE SAME concept with P2W with retainers. Also it is not a "5%" increase, its a 500% increase (for 21 dollars) How people are so blind to this I got no clue.

For now I am boycotting SE completely over being too cash grabby, I will not support such greed, an lazyness when it comes to fixing core coding, no they rush out 2.0 so they can charge us more later. I do not play any EA games or any other games that pull this nonsense, this is the first time being personally exposed to it and I will not support it at all.

Not only has there been several threads made, but other different people in different threads are posting how they are unsubing over this as well.

"The coins are a way to limit the use of the app and honestly for those who think being able to change the price of an item you sell through the app at the cost of a coin is an advantage. . . it's not." do we play the same game? do you know the advantage you have having the top listing consistly? it does not matter if it is by 1 gil, people auto pilot buying the top listing, even if the total is more though taxes.

For the final point you are right, not many will fully exploit the app, but it only takes that ONE PERSON to fully exploit the app to full control the MB. With how the MB is set up in general, makes it easy for one person to control it, just no one has yet for whatever reason, with this app though it does make that a hell a lot easier to do, while making people pay absurdly high amount of money in microtransactions for someone with that goal (so the person needs to be rich in rl and ig, and im not sure if that exists or not, may never see it because of that, but that does not change the fact the ability is there, so chances are high someone will do it.)

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Originally Posted by Squintina

I really don't get why people feel the need to mention these are optional services.

There's only 1 thing that's not optional in this game and that's whatever prerequisite is forced upon you in order to play the optional content you want to play.

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Because people love white knighting SE

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

IF F2P games are so great why are people comparing it to a game that is not a F2P to begin with? Just silently quit and go play something else. We the poor souls that enjoy this game and don't mind paying for things that we choose to do will waste our funds to help enhance a need that we have and SE is meeting based on their business model.

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White knight statements like this are annoying, to think people see this as logic is mind boggling. I am sure EA will love you are your spokesperson. Where is that picture about SE in "what they learned"? that pic goes against everything said here.

Also it is compared to a F2P game because that is the model SE is using while being gated on a base sub, completely uncalled for. There is a difference of trying to make money and blatantly ripping people off with shady tactics, in case you did not know, there is even groups and government agencies made to combat this very thing. I am not saying SE went that far though, but this is a reply to "you do know what the number one rule of a business is right? this is not a charity type of business in case people have not noticed. " It can get so bad you are the cause of government regulation (EA)

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Originally Posted by Rinuko

Yes XI is still charging 12.99 for 1 character.

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/envi/charge.html


Basic Service Fee (*2)
$11.95(or 1,195Crysta)

Character Fee
$1.00(or 100Crysta)

Mog Wardrobe 3 Fee (*3)
$2.00(or 200Crysta)

Mog Wardrobe 4 Fee (*3)
$2.00(or 200Crysta)




So what you are saying is Gil and market board is P2W? Lol
You have to remember these market board features through the app is very very niche and won't affect the bigger community or economics.

Not to forget the argument about extra retainers, why have people in your corner been silent on that for years?

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Nice try but no, FFXI had a lot of additions for free, one was gated by a 1 time payment for a token. It would be like getting a 3rd bag of 140 slots. FFXIV made very little attempt for that kind of improvement, and what they do improve on is gated by excessive fees.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

It's exactly why we should not judge it too soon. I trust SE and while a premium subscription seems unfair based on ideals that some how this game is being compared to F2P games by many players( knowing they pay a subscription and has optional services ) is beyond the realm of common sense apparently.

Take Eureka, they released patch notes as well many hated , many liked , some of us completed during he first week while others complained from day 1 that it was too hard or unfair. Even with patch notes players comprehension skills are questionable claiming that they read it and even reported being ko'd and returning was giving them an XP penalty. When I read those I was -.-;; yeah sure you read those notes. Based on their track record SE is one of the few companies I can say I'm willing to follow and even pay for optional services knowing fully aware that as a consumer is my decision and not being forced into doing so.

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We are going by what they said on the slides, we can judge what they told us, and based on their track record of not taking any consideration to make adjustments before a problem comes out.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I bought extra Retainers for inventory space because I likes to horde weapon, tier gear, tome gear, and various glamour gear.
Retainer market board is secondary and often cost me much more time and effort to list items.
As you already made your mind, I wish you are good luck for your venture in other games.
Enough said, no need to beat on a dead horse since OP already made his mind, any further argument is pointless.
Just wish him farwell.

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k, but what you do has nothing to do if something has a P2W concept in it or not, retainers and this app are P2W concepts.

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Originally Posted by MilanFrozen

Yeah you tell him! Quitting because of content in a 'theme park MMO' is a stupid reason! Who quits because of 'OPTIONAL' content in a 'THEME PARK' Anyway?

Why that would be like not going to disneyland because you've ridden the rides you want and they're releasing one that you don't like. /sarcasm off

Why are there so many of you incapable of understanding why there is no such thing as optional content in a game with almost all of it being optional content?

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Lets make it cost 1 dollar each time you change a glam because it is "optional content" lets lock gold saucer behind 1 dollar access that only lasts for 24 hrs because it is optional content. There is a difference of adding optional content and missing features that you charge for later and only missing because you rushed the game out. This is the only way people can protest these shady practices. Your post has a more detailed reply here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...if-it-continue

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Originally Posted by Remyogic

So explain to me EXACTLY how the apps existence effects in anyway, shape, or form your CHOICE whether or not to use it? The only reason you even have a CHOICE is because it exists, so saying that you have no choice because it exists defy's logic.

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It doesn't because you're creating a nuance where it wasn't. Their original message was about how you don't have a choice on something that was coming out anyway. You decided to try to create a point out of a misconstruction you made. Which you still are now.

They never talked about: "you can use it or not" They talked about how you can always make a choice on doing/using any content the game releases, thus saying something "is a choice" is redundant when even the whole concept of playing the game is a choice.

So, no. You're not logically wrong. You're just going down a road that wasn't what the person you have been discoursing with (besides me) was. Does this address your question?

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

And in equal respect I ask you: Who is FFXIV really competing with? It's only other direct competitor in the same business model is WoW, and it pales when comparing sub numbers alone. The F2P MMOs? Most of them you buy the main game/expac and don't bother with subs, due to the "freemium" options.

We're not business people and we certainly can understand the "keep it a surprise". But its not, it never is because they already talk about it to a degree. A surprise would've been never expecting the app at all (or the XIV Go App to have been the real app all along). The real surprise to a number of people was never disclosing it'll come with its own business model.
And this is again, looping back to poor communication. We can address that they do it in the "legal sense" and the upgrade campaign is a good example of communication that they handled well, credit where its due, but we can also show credit where its been... interesting to see them crash and burn with their hype, let alone the recent display of "disconnect" with the western side of the community in regards to the alliance loot change

All in all, they do things right and they do things right on the legal manner and that's fine. Business be business. The rest of the points, like LL translations, the EU issue with the maid/butler promos to name a few are instances where communication is not on point. Game wise, there's plenty that has been said that hasn't met the expectations they set, housing is the best example of something that has had horrid communication issues of expectation vs result.




I think here we're overlapping and cross-sampling things

Players wanted: An app that allowed them to keep interacting with the game to a degree
Players got: exactly what they asked with a catch: money. Catch because: they weren't expecting to pay for certain features.

Company wanted: an app that addressed the request the players made.
Company gave: exactly what players asked but added a "premium" to make the service sustainable from those who're willing to pay for it and in turn, they (said players and company) get "a little extra".

The problem doesn't fall on where the ideas overlap, it where they didn't and the lack of transparency behind it. If they had said "off the bat" that it would come with costs, the consumer would've given them an early indicator of appeal. Regardless of drama, the feedback would've been early enough to consider the costs of this overall.

(the lack of) Communication is the reason: People (don't) understand what/how/why is being offered. It's not the product that its at fault. Its the communication one party is unable (albeit not incapable) of offering and the other party being unable to get the (reliable) information it needs to understand.

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Besides Blizzard there are other games, Morrowind, Reveletion, Tera, Rift, Warframe are just a few examples for one. They give you the option to play and some offer advantages buy using cash shops, VIP subscriptions which runs the same concept. There are many more that use the same concept. To keep it brief there is plenty of competitors, and just like any other DLC out there they offers some type of incentive in either game currency, gear, which by choice we as the consumer get. One of my personal favorites is Morrowind,more complex and is pretty much the same thing they are offering, with daily currency, more xp, just with in the game instead of the app. So yes FFXIV has competition FFXIV is just less complex than others which in fact focuses on reaching casual players. Morrowind is way way more complex, compare to FFXIV ,I doubt most players would stick with it. FFXIV has a very entertaining story line which is really one of the main reason I even subscribe to this game.

The examples of cross sampling things is just an enhanced feature and SE is just profiting from the supply and demand. I can see both sides of the coin and I'm more of a logical person than an emotional. So while I sympathize with peoples emotional perspective it still does not change the fact that it is a choice.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

White knight statements like this are annoying, to think people see this as logic is mind boggling. I am sure EA will love you are your spokesperson. Where is that pictureabout SE in "what they learned"? that pic goes against everything said here.

Also it is compared to a F2P game because that is the model SE is using while being gated on a base sub, completely uncalled for. There is a difference of trying to make money and blatantly ripping people off with shady tactics, in case you did not know, there is even groups and government agencies made to combat this very thing. I am not saying SE went that far though, but this is a reply to "you do know what the number one rule of a business is right? this is not a charity type of business in case people have not noticed. " It can get so bad you are the cause of government regulation (EA)

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First of I don't like EA games and even sent them a video of destroying their disc that I purchase as a sign that I don't want to be affiliated with their company; that is how you boycott and make your point known. Which brings up my next questions...as I recall and understand that you are leaving for good unless SE gets their act together....why are you still here? I thought you said your leaving for good in earlier post? I know your excuse is your waiting for your next billing period right? If people are really not supporting a company then why even bother making more comments? Silence is Golden, your points have been made and repeated more times that I can remember in multiple threads.

I defend logical points, have an open mind for emotional driven comments, however if they can't make a logical point that seems proper I only question it. I've had some nice debates and can understand certain things and placing labels of others just do to their perspective in supporting a company is just funny to see. A white Knight, I'm more of a devil's advocate.

Here is how SE see's it in their terms of use.

11.8 Changes to this User Agreement. Square Enix reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to change, modify, add to, supplement or delete any of the terms and conditions of this User Agreement or the way that the Game operates at any time. Square Enix will notify you of such changes in one of the following ways at its sole discretion: through a patch, email, postal mail, website posting, pop-up screen or in-game notice. If you do not agree to any such change or modification, you may terminate this User Agreement by uninstalling the Licensed Software and destroying your copy(ies). Your continued use of the Game following any revision to this User Agreement will demonstrate your full acceptance of any and all such changes.

http://support.na.square-enix.com/ru...1&tag=users_en

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Mhm. Just one example, but there are many more like it floating around the multitude of threads that exist about the topic already. So much as even thinking that they're putting more resources into optional purchases than the main game is absolutely ludicrous and you should feel bad for thinking it.

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In no way shape or form did I say that they are putting more resources into the cash shop than the game. That'd be a staggeringly asinine statement.

I said that they were putting MORE resources into the cash shop than they have PREVIOUSLY, things that COULD and SHOULD have been in the game.

Two VERY different statements, but I will concede I could have probably worded it more clearly.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

True, however people are already judging it and it still has not been released.

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Has it ever occurred to you they are judging based on prior experiences, be it with other companies or SE themselves. Bear in mind, SE attempted the whole "Augment Your Preorder" nonsense and only backed down when inundated with an overwhelming amount of backlash and a dislike ratio over 90% on their Youtube trailer. Basically, they stopped when people kept complaining hence why plenty are complaining now. Then you look at EA or Activision and it makes sense why people "judge" ahead of time. SE can thank the game industry it's apart of for the negative reception to micro-transactions. If they want good PR... look to Naughty Dog and CD Projekt Red, who haven't tried to nickel and dime their customers. It's almost like people don't like that.

Companies hide behind the "Optional content" excuse hoping people won't notice them double dipping. EA did it with lootboxes, which were technically optional. That doesn't mean people have to like it.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

First of I don't like EA games and even sent them a video of destroying their disc that I purchase as a sign that I don't want to be affiliated with their company; that is how you boycott and make your point known. Which brings up my next questions...as I recall and understand that you are leaving for good unless SE gets theiract together....why are you still here? I thought you said your leaving for good in earlier post? I know your excuse is your waiting for your next billing period right? If people are really not supporting a company then why even bother making more comments? Silence is Golden, your points have been made and repeated more times that I can remember in multiple threads.

I defend logical points, have an open mind for emotional driven comments, however if they can't make a logical point that seems proper I only question it. I've had some nice debates and can understand certain things and placing labels of others just do to their perspective in supporting a company is just funny to see. A white Knight, I'm more of a devil's advocate.

Here is how SE see's it in their terms of use.

11.8 Changes to this User Agreement. Square Enix reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to change, modify, add to, supplement or delete any of the terms and conditions of this User Agreement or the way that the Game operates at any time. Square Enix will notify you of such changes in one of the following ways at its sole discretion: through a patch, email, postal mail, website posting, pop-up screen or in-game notice. If you do not agree to any such change or modification, you may terminate this User Agreement by uninstalling the Licensed Software and destroying your copy(ies). Your continued use of the Game following any revision to this User Agreement will demonstrate your full acceptance of any and all such changes.

http://support.na.square-enix.com/ru...1&tag=users_en

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You do understand how the game works right? my sub is canceled, I get to post for 14 days after that, and that is almost expired, I explained that several times to you and others.

Some others posted in different quitting threads about being unsubed CURRENTLY while that free return campaign allows them to post, so if you actually took the time to understand what is going on, you would know this.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Ok, so someone clear this up for me. What EXACTLY does this app provide. I mean the exacts of what it gives you. If I pay $5 a month, what am I being offered exactly. I dont want "Well it could lead to 'X'" or "Essentially itll be used to do 'Y'", I just want the exacts of what it provides.

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UI feature that should been in the base game for a while, retainer to retainer item movement, an option to buy 10th retainer for 2 more dollars
so 21 dollars for 8 extra retainers, people are fed up with the "add 2 dollar here" then time later "2 more dollar a month.

app also has microtransaction to change prices of your listing on MB, effectly making MB management pay to win.

Ok, so someone clear this up for me. What EXACTLY does this app provide. I mean the exacts of what it gives you. If I pay $5 a month, what am I being offered exactly. I dont want "Well it could lead to 'X'" or "Essentially itll be used to do 'Y'", I just want the exacts of what it provides.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Not another thread just add to existing ones your points of view have already been covered several times.... Besides it helps your cause to add to existing ones...and like any other thread quitting do to OPTIONAL services ...good riddance.

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What is the limit of "optional" content to you? Everyone have different limits for it. When "optional" content is able to optionaly pay more to receive more, it is still optional, but is it right? Is it right to be able to purchase 35$ of Sub and earn more space, more gil, more mats, more marcket power, housing economic control where everyone should be equal as it is a subscription MMO, known for to not bother with cash shop advantages to who pay more? What it will be in the future? SURELY not less than what we are suffering.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

k, but what you do has nothing to do if something has a P2W concept in it or not, retainers and this app are P2W concepts.[/url]

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Only the people ignored the fundamental law of supply and demand will claim Retainers is pay to win.
In this simulated market board economy, demand is fixed (number of crafter) but supply is number of active player base.
The number of market slots do not give you advantage.
No matter how many time you can potentially list item, they are not going to sell if there is no demand.
Such hyperbole argument is exactly like those complains about undercutting when they are totally ignored the fact this simulated FF14 market board is an open free market.

Either way, since you already announced you have un-subbed over this still in-development APP, what is your stake here?

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Ok, so someone clear this up for me. What EXACTLY does this app provide. I mean the exacts of what it gives you. If I pay $5 a month, what am I being offered exactly. I dont want "Well it could lead to 'X'" or "Essentially itll be used to do 'Y'", I just want the exacts of what it provides.

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Basically everything we know is in this post: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4651141

To sum up, what you get (that we know of) for paying that you don't get for free and don't need to spend extra for is the following:
- The ability to organize your saddlebags and retainer inventories
- Double the saddlebag capacity (+70 slots)
- The ability to hire one extra retainer for 1 character
- Twice as many kupo nuts per day as free app users, and the ability to hold more of them (though we don't know how many more)

So essentially, it's $5/month for 215 item slots (70 accessible anywhere) on a single character* and the ability to do some number (presumably 1) of extra app-based market board transactions per day.

*They don't explicitly indicate whether the saddlebag increase is only for a single character, but it's phrased similarly to the retainer, which is, so I presume they both only apply to the character associated with the app.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

I'm sick of seeing all these posts saying that "SE is putting more effort into the cash shop than the game", when it's been said time and time again that the cash shop is run by a completely different team.

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Different team or not, that doesn't change it,it's still square & its still money given to that cash shop you are speaking of so obviously, yes less is actually given elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Basically everything we know is in this post: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4651141

To sum up, what you get (that we know of) for paying that you don't get for free and don't need to spend extra for is the following:
- The ability to organize your saddlebags and retainer inventories
- Double the saddlebag capacity (+70 slots)
- The ability to hire one extra retainer for 1 character
- Twice as many kupo nuts per day as free app users, and the ability to hold more of them (though we don't know how many more)

So essentially, it's $5/month for 215 item slots (70 accessible anywhere) on a single character* and the ability to do some number (presumably 1) of extra app-based market board transactions per day.

*They don't explicitly indicate whether the saddlebag increase is only for a single character, but it's phrased similarly to the retainer, which is, so I presume they both only apply to the character associated with the app.

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Note that it states:

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the ability to purchase an additional retainer on the Mog Station

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so the retainer slots are not part of that initial $5/month charge and it's not really a bonus unless you're already paying for all 7 additional retainers.

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Originally Posted by Dustytome

Note that it states: so the retainer slots are not part of that initial $5/month charge and it's not really a bonus unless you're already paying for all 7 additional retainers.

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I have a feeling that's an error, because it doesn't make any sense (since it explicitly says "...can be employed by a single character"). Also the slide says "an additional retainer can be hired" and you don't "hire" retainers on the Mog Station, you hire them at the Retainer Vocate.

But if it actually does just let you spend another $2/month on retainers, that's even less useful. Which does back up the argument that Square Enix is overcharging for this stuff, but also means you can easily skip on paying this fee and makes the idea that this is a slippery slope kind of laughable.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

Snip.

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Ok.

So for people who have a Ton of retainers, tehyll be able to get more wtih this app. Hows that P2W? Does that allow someone to beat UCoB? Does that give them teh ability to beat Kefka? Is it an edge to have more retainers? More gil, sure. Ok. More storage for glamour or items. So what? I dont see a power advantage here.

What UI Featuers that should be in the game? Also $2 a month for an extra retainer? Ive never had an issue with that personally. Maybe thats just me.

Now the contention part: Microtransaction to change MB listing, thus its P2W.

How?

So you can undercut someone else by that one gil and can do it remotely? Thats what P2W means now? SERIOUSLY?

"But theyll make all the sales and get all that gil to get all the glamour and housing and gear they want!!!"

Except the best gear cant be bought typically (crafted gear can be, but that gear deosnt stay BIS forever). The best bang for your buck is almost always going to be gear attained in Savage modes. And Glamour isnt something you "Win" wiht. Its cosmetic. Nor is housing. Or a lot of things. Yeah, does that mean someone is going to have an advantage at getting a house cause they get that one sale slightly more often cause they undercut by that 1 gil?

Sure.

Is it a "PAY 2 WIN!!!LUL!" situation?

Not even remotely close.

I will concede its a bit money grubbing to have an app you pay for ontop of a microtransaction in the app, thats a really redundant charge. The app should be free and offer things players can do for fun (Triple Triad as an example, or access to your 'toybox'), and offer a microtransaction system for certain things. But if were losing our minds over "People can remotely adjust MB pricing, therefor its P2W," than the MMO community is way to high strung.

Last I checked, P2W was using cash to buy items that gave you an outright advantage. More stats, Better armors, Access to content that gives you those things or makes it easier to get through Savage or the like. P2W used to be pretty clear cut. If you were a P2W player, the free people would be stomped by you. Now were saying P2W means the remote possibility of getting a slight advantage (maybe) on getting gil, which MAY get used to get temporarily BiS gear. Maybe. thats P2W now. What anxious and spoiled little children we have become if we become indignant and lose our composure over the idea of remote possibilities.

p2w : feista, tera, black desert <--- biggest p2w games out there
p2p : wow, ffxi, ffxiv
b2p : gw2

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I have a feeling that's an error, because it doesn't make any sense

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From the Digest:

"The premium plan is based on a monthly subscription. While it’s not finalized yet, we are currently assuming around 500 yen for the monthly fee. We would like you to first try it out free, then consider subscribing. The premium plan adds various additional features such as inventory management between retainers, the ability to purchase an additional retainer on the Mog Station, and also doubles the capacity of the saddlebag."

Unless that, too, is an error, it seems you will have to actually purchase the retainer. The reddit translator also mentioned Yoshi-P outright saying it wouldn't be free.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

What UI Featuers that should be in the game? Also $2 a month for an extra retainer? Ive never had an issue with that personally. Maybe thats just me.

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What I find interesting, aside from the complaints about inventory bloat shortly after SB release, I don't recall EVER seeing someone say that people who paid for additional retainers were part of the P2W community. Only after this app was revealed did that happen because "OMG! A TENTH RETAINER FOR THEM?! NOW NOTHING OF MINE WILL SELL! Q_Q"

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Originally Posted by Avatre

What I find interesting, aside from the complaints about inventory bloat shortly after SB release, I don't recall EVER seeing someone say that people who paid for additional retainers were part of the P2W community. Only after this app was revealed did that happen because "OMG! A TENTH RETAINER FOR THEM?! NOW NOTHING OF MINE WILL SELL! Q_Q"

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Yeah, people used to complain about under-cutting, not even once about number of retainers.
Hopefully, we wont see these types of hyperbole and daily dramatic threads fairly soon.

I think theyre going about the app all wrong for what it should be. Its not p2w though.

It should be free. Having the app should give you the ability to manage your acc, and allow you to recruit another retainer or more saddlebag space from your account. The app allows item management between retainers. It should allow people to play Trip Triad or their toybox games, or chat in FC chat or wtih friends. What you have access to should be determined by waht you do in game, to some extent. That would be a pretty nice app.

But as I said, its not p2w based on what they have.