A "Good Community" doesn't excuse content from being unfun

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skivvy

These fates give you top level tomes and the chance at some glams, minions, etc. That right there makes them loads better.

---

There are FATEs in the overworld that have these as well. Yet, nobody does those anymore, not since ARR.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skivvy

These fates give you top level tomes and the chance at some glams, minions, etc. That right there makes them loads better.

---

Exactly. That and they arent dead in 20seconds and the rewards arent limited by Capps and Lockouts. NM's are sightly different than FATE's. If you really wanted to you could call dungeon bosses FATE's

Something else that might help is having a claim system, but then there would be a whole different set of complaints.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aronys

Are you seriously defending FATEs? Seriously? Where did you FATE defenders even come from all of a sudden? Before Eureka, everyone was united in the opinion that FATEs suck and that SE really needs to try something new. Where is this sudden shift coming from? O.o

---

Fates are actually pretty fun when the rewards are worth it. It's also a good way to kill time and give a boost of XP. It's an optional source and people who just think something sucks is just sad. Everyone one pays a subscription so everyone has the right to enjoy OPTIONAL content. While I'm NOT a big fan of fates I can at least understand that it is an option. If people do Fate grinding is up to them. While yes it can feel pointless at times it can be a necessary evil.l If anything is players who can't understand a simple concept are the ones that suck.

In what world do the rewards suddenly make the content FUNNER???
If you were given 1,000,000 dollars for watching paint dry for an entire month, does that make paint drying fun?

The general consensus is that FATE grinding isn't fun. Rewards are nice to have, but they don't make the ACT of FATE grinding any funner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RainDurell

In what world do the rewards suddenly make the content FUNNER???
If you were given 1,000,000 dollars for watching paint dry for an entire month, does that make paint drying fun?

The general consensus is that FATE grinding isn't fun. Rewards are nice to have, but they don't make the ACT of FATE grinding any funner.

---

https://images.angelpub.com/2017/17/43589/the-dude.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

https://images.angelpub.com/2017/17/43589/the-dude.jpg

---

Last I checked, most people didn't enjoy FATE grinding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RainDurell

Last I checked, most people didn't enjoy FATE grinding.

---

Yes, I get thats what you think. Is that all you have? Any suggestions on what could be done different to improve the content in your eyes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

Yes, I get thats what you think. Is that all you have? Any suggestions on what could be done different to improve the content in your eyes?

---

A choice, primarily. Let the people that want to grind hundreds of mobs a level do that. Let the people that want to stand around while other people kill the big monsters for them do that. Let the people that want to run dailies or quests or whatever in Eureka do that. Just something to break up the monotonous grind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RainDurell

In what world do the rewards suddenly make the content FUNNER???

---

Pawlows world?

Connecting one stimulus (for example a bell/content) with another (for example food/rewards) repeatedly will cause the two to get internally connected as well. That sort of conditioning is only temporary, tho - When stimuli become disconnected again (bell without food/content without rewards), the internal connection quickly fades.

It really makes sense that people think that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Metsonm

A choice, primarily. Let the people that want to grind hundreds of mobs a level do that. Let the people that want to stand around while other people kill the big monsters for them do that. Let the people that want to run dailies or quests or whatever in Eureka do that. Just something to break up the monotonous grind.

---

Well, there are options. Can join the train and grind mobs just to spawn NM's or you could get a party and grind mobs for exp unil an MN spawns, participate, and go back to grinding. There are quests, talk to Krile. This is the point of the content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

Pawlows world?

Connecting one stimulus (for example a bell/content) with another (for example food/rewards) repeatedly will cause the two to get internally connected as well. That sort of conditioning is only temporary, tho - When stimuli become disconnected again (bell without food/content without rewards), the internal connection quickly fades.

It really makes sense that people think that way.

---

No, when you get rewarded for doing something, you feel like it's something worth doing, not that it's something that is necessarily FUN to do. When you think of doing any content, in any video game, your first thought should be "I enjoy doing this content", not "I want that reward"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

Well, there are options. Can join the train and grind mobs just to spawn NM's or you could get a party and grind mobs for exp unil an MN spawns, participate, and go back to grinding. There are quests, talk to Krile. This is the point of the content.

---

Exactly my point. The choices are grind mobs that don't do anything interesting or do nothing for NMs that don't do anything interesting.

And you can hardly level with the quests when they're spread out between levels. Do they even give experience?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RainDurell

No, when you get rewarded for doing something, you feel like it's something worth doing, not that it's something that is necessarily FUN to do. When you think of doing any content, in any video game, your first thought should be "I enjoy doing this content", not "I want that reward"

---

What is content in this game that you enjoy doing and why do you find it fun? Just curious to find a basis for comparison.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Metsonm

Exactly my point. The choices are grind mobs that don't do anything interesting or do nothing for NMs that don't do anything interesting.

And you can hardly level with the quests when they're spread out between levels. Do they even give experience?

---

No, they dont give exp. If quests are ever added to Eureka, the need to be meaningful, not just throwaway daily quests and they need to be done just like the Krile quests and have no markers or quest log. If you want to do dailies, there are Leve Quests, Beastribes, and Roulettes to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RainDurell

Last I checked, most people didn't enjoy FATE grinding.

---

PotD is hands down the most boring content for lvling in, people still do it. Fates died because they don't give enough xp and people flocked to the newest hit Palace of the really boring...running 51-100 or just 51 over and over and over till you hit 60 then you're back to fates and dungeons. Waiting for a dungeon que? 20 mins you say? Better sit there and watch the wind blow grass over go to a fate and pop a bit of extra xp in the meantime.

Not everything in life or in the game needs to be the most fun possible, sometimes you really have to work to get the stuff you really want. I'm sure there are people who hate raiding with a passion but do it for the rewards, same concept applies to pvp or relics or anything in game really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

No, they dont give exp. If quests are ever added to Eureka, the need to be meaningful, not just throwaway daily quests and they need to be done just like the Krile quests and have no markers or quest log. If you want to do dailies, there are Leve Quests, Beastribes, and Roulettes to do.

---

And all of those could very easily fit into Eureka so there's actually something worthwhile to do in there. Hell, I don't even think dailies or leves are the pinnacle of game design, but they're a damn sight better than hitting training dummies that might throw out an easily avoidable AoE every 30 seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

What is content in this game that you enjoy doing and why do you find it fun? Just curious to find a basis for comparison.

---

When it comes to battle content, dungeons are enjoyable every now and then, normal mode trials/raids are fun to experience, and I enjoy the extreme content too.
What I don't find fun are mobs that don't do anything except an AoE attack every few seconds, and killing them over and over and over. NMs are like S Ranks, they're big, require lots of people to defeat, but are ultimately also a brainless experience.

Eureka suffers from WoWism, it's junk but the community keeps it afloat

lolfates

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aronys

There are FATEs in the overworld that have these as well. Yet, nobody does those anymore, not since ARR.

---

I'm not aware of any FATEs that give top-tier tomes. Which are these?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Metsonm

And all of those could very easily fit into Eureka so there's actually something worthwhile to do in there. Hell, I don't even think dailies or leves are the pinnacle of game design, but they're a damn sight better than hitting training dummies that might throw out an easily avoidable AoE every 30 seconds.

---

Then what would be the point of eureka? Why not just make the relic step like the rest of them where you are spread out all over the current content trying to get light, books, or whatever else they made us do?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RainDurell

When it comes to battle content, dungeons are enjoyable every now and then, normal mode trials/raids are fun to experience, and I enjoy the extreme content too.
What I don't find fun are mobs that don't do anything except an AoE attack every few seconds, and killing them over and over and over. NMs are like S Ranks, they're big, require lots of people to defeat, but are ultimately also a brainless experience.

---

So all content is boring. Why do you play this game then? Cause what you "don't find fun" is really the core of the whole game. Tell me I'm wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

Then what would be the point of eureka? Why not just make the relic step like the rest of them where you are spread out all over the current content trying to get light, books, or whatever else they made us do?

---

That's a good question, isn't it? What is the point in Eureka?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Metsonm

That's a good question, isn't it? What is the point in Eureka?

---

To give those looking for a more traditional, old school, MMO experience. This is as close as I think we will get in FFXIV. All your "Fixes" will negate that experience.

There are tweaks and fixes that can be done to the content as is that will keep the experience and also spread people out a bit more, your solutions do not do that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Metsonm

That's a good question, isn't it? What is the point in Eureka?

---

To be a relic grind with a bit more to do and get from it than old relic quests. And that's it.
Eureka doesn't need to be its own little MMORPG inside a MMORPG.

Quote:

---

So all content is boring. Why do you play this game then? Cause what you "don't find fun" is really the core of the whole game. Tell me I'm wrong.

---

I practically named what I find fun...
Like it was said above, dummies that spit out an aoe every few seconds isn't my idea of fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RainDurell

I practically named what I find fun...
Like it was said above, dummies that spit out an aoe every few seconds isn't my idea of fun.

---

Honestly I only find dungeons fun for the first run through or two, after that its just boring and I only do it for the Tome's (Rewards). "Dummies that spit out an aoe every few seconds" is basically all combat content in this game. If you can reduce FATE's this way then so can the rest of the game be reduced to reward pinatas. I don't find Savage fun unless I have a static group of friends but the rewards arent even really worth it since its outclassed in the next patch or two. Any static groups I used to have all gave up doing savage since its pointless. At least BCoB when it was relevant had the reward of extra story but they killed that because of, wait for it, FORUM COMPLAINTS.

If Eureka is completely dead before 4.3 then I could concede that its bunk content. But I like the way its setup with creating instances based on need, don't need to be in a group prior to queueing, no cap or weekly lockout, no quest markers, sense of danger, slow leveling, death penalty that matters, Magia Board and others. That just off the top of my head.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skivvy

I'm not aware of any FATEs that give top-tier tomes. Which are these?

---

You didn't say just tomes, you also said minions and glams. Ignoring half of your own sentence to argue, good job white knight. :)

All I can take out of these threads is that those who enjoy Eureka take them personally and so they get highly defensive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

All I can take out of these threads is that those who enjoy Eureka take them personally and so they get highly defensive.

---

Not surprising when the side that doesn't like it usually doesn't stop at "I don't like it" and jumps right into "This content is bad and terrible and why would anyone like it/defend it" mode, as seems to be the case more often than not (since you're generalizing, I thought I go ahead and do it too).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Berethos

Not surprising when the side that doesn't like it usually doesn't stop at "I don't like it" and jumps right into "This content is bad and terrible and why would anyone like it/defend it" mode, as seems to be the case more often than not.

---

I think you missed all of those initial posts that started with suggestions on how to improve it before the holy defenders came in and started telling everyone who doesn't like it to stop playing MMOs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aronys

I think you missed all of those initial posts that started with suggestions on how to improve it before the holy defenders came in and started telling everyone who doesn't like it to stop playing MMOs.

---

I think you replied too quickly, as my edit included crucial context for the tone of my post.

That being said - day freaking one, only a couple hours after Eureka launched, among the first posts I was reading (I was at work and so obviously couldn't play, but it was a slow day so I could keep up with threads and discussions) were "This is it? This sucks" and "Eureka is dead on arrival" which was then followed by posts and suggestions about how to improve it once players started figuring out how it actually works, then came the white knights in response to both valid and asinine criticisms.

So no, I didn't miss the initial posts that started with suggestions, because those weren't the initial posts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Berethos

Not surprising when the side that doesn't like it usually doesn't stop at "I don't like it" and jumps right into "This content is bad and terrible and why would anyone like it/defend it" mode, as seems to be the case more often than not (since you're generalizing, I thought I go ahead and do it too).

---

I mean, I'm obviously generalizing, not going to go case by case, but yeah, just look at the general response from those who defend the content. In fact, look at your very own answer. I don't know, it's pretty clear to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

All I can take out of these threads is that those who enjoy Eureka take them personally and so they get highly defensive.

---

No, for the first time since PotD do we have the groundwork for something new and interesting. Then the forums do what they usually do, complain until its dumbed down to be the same as everything else we have. Since the Vishap nerf its been one concession after another that homogenizes this game for the lowest common denominator. If anything SE needs to make leveling longer and deal with the NM train in Eureka, not add quests, hunting logs, and take away the level requirement for teleports and mounts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

I mean, I'm obviously generalizing, not going to go case by case, but yeah, just look at the general response from those who defend the content. In fact, look at your very own answer. I don't know, it's pretty clear to me.

---

You mean the answer where I haven't defended or critiqued Eureka at all, just generalized about posting patterns and pointed out an inaccurate assessment of the general content of the initial posts?

I make a terrible white knight if this is how I'm rushing into defend the content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

No, for the first time since PotD do we have the groundwork for something new and interesting. Then the forums do what they usually do, complain until its dumbed down to be the same as everything else we have. Since the Vishap nerf its been one concession after another that homogenizes this game for the lowest common denominator. If anything SE needs to make leveling longer and deal with the NM train in Eureka, not add quests, hunting logs, and take away the level requirement for teleports and mounts.

---

I don't think anyone's asking for a nerf. In fact, if it was for me, I'd make everything (significantly) harder. Nerfs started way before Steps of Faith, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what people are complaining about Eureka. Actually, Eureka itself is dumbed down from the very beginning, one of the main problems with it. Community saw potential to improve what was the first Diadem, we saw the second Diadem thinking it'd be better, and it was yet another disappointment. This is basically the same, but everything's said and done in that respect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Berethos

You mean the answer where I haven't defended or critiqued Eureka at all?

---

I meant your answer where you got all defensive, such as this one. Anyway, I never said I was one of the people who didn't like Eureka in that other post, and you still took it as such.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

I meant your answer where you got all defensive, such as this one. Anyway, I never said I was one of the people who didn't like Eureka in that other post, and you still took it as such.

---

Today I learned that correcting a misinterpretation of my post (that I was one defending something, when I never actually had) is being defensive. Who knew?

Also, I'd read my response again - I never accused you of being one that liked or disliked the content. I just posted a generalization about how those who do criticize Eureka tend to do so - if you felt that included you, then that's your own interpretation.

All I said you were doing was generalizing behavior, and so cheekily did the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Berethos

Today I learned that correcting a misinterpretation of my post (that I was one defending something, when I never actually had) is being defensive. Who knew?

Also, I'd read my response again - I never accused you of being one that liked or disliked the content. I just posted a generalization about how those who do criticize Eureka tend to do so - if you felt that included you, then that's your own interpretation.

---

Alright, /thumbsup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

I don't think anyone's asking for a nerf. In fact, if it was for me, I'd make everything (significantly) harder. Nerfs started way before Steps of Faith, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what people are complaining about Eureka. Actually, Eureka itself is dumbed down from the very beginning, one of the main problems with it. Community saw potential to improve what was the first Diadem, we saw the second Diadem thinking it'd be better, and it was yet another disappointment. This is basically the same, but everything's said and done in that respect.

---

Well, that has been the majority of the complaints I've heard so far and the same fixes.
"Leveling is too slow" "increase exp/add quests/hunting logs"
"killing the same monster over and over is boring"
"level requirements for mounts and teles should be removed"

My responses were:
- Leveling is pretty quick if you join the NM train but I dont think this is the way it was intended to be played. To fix they need to add some hindrance to NM training like a claim system or a caveat where when killing the mob to spawn an NM you need to be gaining exp, or something else.
- To some its boring, others have been calling for this specifically as a way to level up since 2.0 beta. To adjust the monotony they could add in other pop mechanics. Another thing they could do that would be interesting for another map is to bring back the Black Shroud from 1.0 as pieces used in a procedurally generated map. that way each instance will be a little different, things would be placed and need to be found.
- Things like tele and mount lockouts give you something to work towards aside from the usual drops but like most other stuff in ffxiv once its unlocked it stays that way.

Just a few things they could do that would spice this content up. Aside from QoL adjustments Eureka does need a little seasoning but its not on the same level of DOA as Lords of Verminion was.

since when has this ever been a good community every mmo community this is no exception

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MageBlack

My responses were:
- Leveling is pretty quick if you join the NM train but I dont think this is the way it was intended to be played.
- To some its boring, others have been calling for this specifically as a way to level up since 2.0 beta.
- Things like tele and mount lockouts give you something to work towards aside from the usual drops but like most other stuff in ffxiv once its unlocked it stays that way..

---

Idk, I don't really see how you can like it even if you try to do it as intended. Pop distracted me from editing.

I mean, the chaining is easy as hell. Mobs die fast, and generally only have one ability that needs one person to stun. It's just its very tedious, because it's not really designed for the toolset we have. You level on one type of mob at best, maybe two if you kill superfast, per camp. There's not much in the way of defensive spells, so usually tank just pulls and everyone more or less dpses. There's no real staging of mobs, since its too hard to deplete an area with no fate train. Soloing is even easier, since no one but you aggro or controls healing or pulling. It's really bare bones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aronys

You didn't say just tomes, you also said minions and glams. Ignoring half of your own sentence to argue, good job white knight. :)

---

LOL. If the best retort you can come up with is that I'm a White Knight, then I'm done with you after this post. I'm level 4 in Eureka. Does that scream someone who has been living in there since it launched? Have you checked my other posts to see my thoughts on the matter? No?

Since I have to spell it out for you, end-game tomes drive a lot of people to do things. You are severely underestimating the importance of adding these to FATEs with your initial comment. Add in new glams and minions, and you're going to have a decent crowd for awhile.