A "Good Community" doesn't excuse content from being unfun

[RainDurell]

Of course, "fun" is an opinion, but there is a large majority that don't find "following FATE train to kill a FATE boss, rinse repeat" fun.

I've heard people try and defend Eureka by saying that the community, and the stories that are formed from playing in Eureka is what makes it fun for them, and that's fine and dandy, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Eureka is good content.

Eureka IN ITSELF brings nothing new or exciting gameplay wise. It's simply grind X monster to spawn Y boss with less mechanics than a regular dungeon boss. Believe me, I've tried getting into Eureka multiple times, and I just couldn't connect with it, it's just so painfully boring. If I had to compare it to anything it'd be grinding fates in Northern Thanalan, except here there is slightly more "thought" put into it, like which mob to kill next, and which element to attune to (which are both rather brainless endeavors)

In short, people saying "You're playing it wrong" as a counter-argument to why it is boring, just miss the true reason why it's boring. It's not FUN to fight mobs that require little strategy or thought for hours. Nothing more, nothing less. When the Dev Team see people make positive remarks about Eureka because "The community is fun", they take that as "Eureka is fun, and is a successful piece of content", which in turn will lead to more content like this one.

That's not to say it doesn't have positive elements; the zone is beautiful, the sense of danger is real, and exploration is nice. All the core elements to what could've been an amazing experience exist, they've just executed it pretty badly.

[Tridus]

Of course, "fun" is an opinion, but there is a large majority that don't find "following FATE train to kill a FATE boss, rinse repeat" fun.

I am one of those people, but what is "large majority" based on? We don't have any accurate way to gauge what the playerbase as a whole thinks.

I've heard people try and defend Eureka by saying that the community, and the stories that are formed from playing in Eureka is what makes it fun for them, and that's fine and dandy, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Eureka is good content.

Eureka IN ITSELF brings nothing new or exciting gameplay wise. It's simply grind X monster to spawn Y boss with less mechanics than a regular dungeon boss. Believe me, I've tried getting into Eureka multiple times, and I just couldn't connect with it, it's just so painfully boring. If I had to compare it to anything it'd be grinding fates in Northern Thanalan, except here there is slightly more "thought" put into it, like which mob to kill next, and which element to attune to (which are both rather brainless endeavors)

Well, yes. The funny thing? Lots of bad things are fun. I mean, the entire premise of MST3k is that if a movie is sufficiently bad it can cross over into "so bad it's good". All kinds of TV is awful but people still enjoy it.

Eureka can be bad and people can find the community in it fun at the same time. The two don't contradict each other. I mean, look at early MMOs. In a lot of ways they were terrible games, when you compare the gameplay to single player or small multiplayer equivalents. What they had going for them that no other game at the time did was the large, highly engaged communities that made the game greater than the sum of its parts. That's something a lot of people feel is missing in modern MMOs with the focus on solo friendly everything, instances, and cross server "you never see these people again" mentality.

There's certainly an appeal in watching the community take something with major flaws like Eureka has and create a whole play style designed around working around them for as many people as possible (the train). People are in there leading, raising, tracking spawns, chatting, cheering, all kinds of things. It's downright weird compared to the rest of the game.

And frankly? That's the best part. The game already has tons of fights and areas that are better executed than Eureka. But it has very little "group with a ton of people for 2 hours and venture forth as one big cooperative blob with the goal of killing stuff and having fun together while avoiding danger noodles". If that's what you were missing in the game, Eureka's a total success because it delivers it, in spite of everything that's wrong with it. (Hell, maybe because of some of what's wrong with it. If you could just solo your way up without issue, would the train meta and the whole environment supporting it have even formed?)

[kite384]

I would welcome more content like this with open arms grinding and a map like where people from the entire datacenter can play together?Its already so much better compared to previous early relic steps and many people share the same opinion.

[MageBlack]

Thank goodness someone finally made a thread about this!

[RainDurell]

Eureka can be bad and people can find the community in it fun at the same time. The two don't contradict each other.

I never claimed that it's impossible to have a fun community in a bad piece of gameplay, I was saying that having a good community doesn't excuse it from having bad gameplay.

And frankly? That's the best part. The game already has tons of fights and areas that are better executed than Eureka. But it has very little "group with a ton of people for 2 hours and venture forth as one big cooperative blob with the goal of killing stuff and having fun together while avoiding danger noodles".

There is no good reason why they can't make the big zone where you can group up with a bunch of people be interesting gameplay-wise at the same time. Heck, they spent 17 months of development, and the only fun we find in it is EACHOTHER rather than the thing they spent 17 months on.

[Mahrze]

There is no good reason why they can't make the big zone where you can group up with a bunch of people be interesting gameplay-wise at the same time. Heck, they spent 17 months of development, and the only fun we find in it is EACHOTHER rather than the thing they spent 17 months on.

When life gives you lemons, make a lemon cheesecake. : ok_hand:

[Avatre]

"You're playing it wrong" as a counter-argument to why it is boring, just miss the true reason why it's boring. It's not FUN

Both highly suggestive points. As the saying goes: one man's trash is another man's treasure.

While I actually do somewhat enjoy it, I do see that there are flaws in it. There definitely should be a level sync so that anyone can party, and still gain EXP/chain rewards. There should be more to do than just kill/wait for a NM to spawn do to the "hard" work of others.

I also understand, that it is newly implemented, and that the relics are in no way done. There is likely to be a fair number of things don to it still, and I'm just hoping that it adds more depth to the place.

[Connor]

I agree, a community that can have fun in bad content is obviously a great thing, but it doesn’t mean we should just start ignoring the fact that the content needs improvement. I try to imagine what the content would be like if translated to a single player game(or at least as much possible), and I think it’s safe to say Eureka does not sound fun at all.

Furthermore, it’s probably cynicism, but I don’t believe that the ‘FATE train’ fosters any stronger sense of community than anything else they’ve added. The only reason it’s so widely used is because it’s so efficient compared to the alternatives, not because people are enjoying your company.

[RainDurell]

Both highly suggestive points. As the saying goes: one man's trash is another man's treasure.

You took that quote out of context.
My point was that alot of people who support Eureka on social media basically say "You are playing it wrong", but don't see that it's less about the way you play it, and more about how fighting monste- you know what, forget that, sometimes you don't even FIGHT the monsters in Eureka with the FATE train tactic, because you might be too underleveled or too lazy to actually grind it.

I mentioned this in the main post, but I'll say it again: I don't claim that Eureka (Community excluded) can't be enjoyable to certain people, I'm just saying a vast majority (As seen from the initial reception of Eureka) find it painfully boring.

[Alaray]

If Eureka came out earlier, closer to SB's release, like launched with Susano and Lakshmi, I'd be more forgiving when I talk about it as a whole.


It does have a good basis, and good potential. But for the wait, for the delays, for the time taken on it the overall experience feels lacking.

Grinding mobs and killing NM's becomes progressively more fun in the sense of "I can just chill during these and not worry about dying" at cap level, and it's not bad to go through content like this with a group of people to talk to (for me, it's Voip with FC mates, a lot of the time out there I just don't have the energy to type). Some of the bosses are interesting in terms of visual design, but the majority don't do anything new -- it's all things we've seen before.

But I'll forever feel like there should be something else. Be it daily quests to complete, be it "hunts" of a kind to go kill certain types of mobs in a specific quantity to receive a decent, guaranteed, reward for the effort; or just... over world dungeons with hidden treasure chests/bosses that can only be spawned upon doing the overworld dungeon, etc...

I still think it's a bit "meh" to have Aetherytes when they're unlocked at level 9. Not the biggest annoyance, but it does blow a bit when I'm helping my lower level friends and we can't make it to a level-appropriate fate the train spawned while we were trying to be near enough to run there (again, trying to spawn a lower level fate). Kinda feel like either have 'em and everyone can use them at level 1, or don't have them at all.

Being able to afk through the boring parts is kind of what saves me. I don't care if people are gonna whine about the level 20 not helping -- I've helped a ton, these mobs die, including level 19 ones, in like 1 or 2 gcd's. It's really not worth it to run around killing them unless you just feel like doing that, and usually, enough people feel like doing it.

It's a beautiful zone, the music is great, I enjoy that the weather system and day/night cycle plays into it more than the other zones. But I wish there were different things to do out there, rather than fate training.


(I ground the crap out of it mostly because I was bored and really wanted my relic stuff)