This is why this game should'nt get a parse

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

I see the usual suspects are making their claims that tanks should do dps levels of dps and dps should somehow do far more. typical. maybe when in max item level haha.

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Tanks reaching 3.5K is normal in full ilvl340. While DPS classes don't need the full 340 to hit those numbers. They need far less.

4k is minimum baseline for anything 310 and over. 4.5k is what your typical "average" 330-340 dps should do. 5k is what ur main job should be doing

How in the hell is this even a thread?

'Parsers are bad because I'm embarrassed I was outdpsed by tanks who were mean to me'

Really? Is this what people are complaining about now? Send those tanks my way, I'd love to get a WAR in Shin who didn't plop down in Defiance and stay there.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

I don't wanna play the devil's advocate but... It's the run that juuuuust got uploaded? The tanks did more DPS than all the actual DPS but the NIN. o-O

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

How in the hell is this even a thread?

'Parsers are bad because I'm embarrassed I was outdpsed by tanks who were mean to me'

Really? Is this what people are complaining about now? Send those tanks my way, I'd love to get a WAR in Shin who didn't plop down in Defiance and stay there.

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Did you see his logs at 25th december without death?

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Did you see his logs at 25th december without death?

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I saw a 5-ogcd and 6-ogcd weave. I died a little inside.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Did you see his logs at 25th december without death?

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

I saw a 5-ogcd and 6-ogcd weave. I died a little inside.

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o.o

/10char

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

Elitist jerks and toxicity aren't gonna be a problem if SE add a parse to the game... yeah right :rolleyes:

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But it's already in the game, though.
Official parser will change nothing, aside from Playstation 4 access to it and more correct/precise data.

parse is toxic ban

Actually this is why we need a parser in the game, so people can actually see themselves how bad they perform.

Was the tank in the OP a bit of a douche? Yes.

Did the tank in the OP have a point? Definitely.

Should the OP be using those parses as a means of improving themselves? Of course. OP seems to think their DPS is fine for full 340 in savage content.

It really isn't.

That said, if people didn't always generalize that people with parsers were automatically assholes then a big part of the issue here would disappear anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

3,5k-4k is way more than enough for o2s

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It's actually not. If an entire party performed at the same level on their jobs as a 3500 DPS MCH, they would not have enough total DPS to beat the enrage timer.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

'Parsers are bad because I'm embarrassed I was outdpsed by tanks who were mean to me'

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I'm still trying to figure out how these people intend to solve the problem without a parser, aside from "go into a different group and hope they can carry me".

If you don't have enough DPS to properly clear the encounter, your only two options to try and fix it are :
1. Improve your DPS, for which you need data
2. Quit and hope that hope in the next group, other people already did #1

All we're getting by keeping it unofficial is that some players have more access to it than others, which in a game that's so DPS focused isn't terribly fair.

My refreshing late thread take on this subject: People are already exclusionist dicks in this game without benefit of an official parser. Elitists gonna be elitists. Why blame the X-ray when it's the tumor you should be mad at? As long as you surround yourself with good people with good morals, you won't have to deal with the pricks. Go out and find them.

A single anecdote is enough reason parsers shouldn't be allowed. Okay.

"shit the rest of you" says it all. Blacklist the smart guy that think the world is trash except him, and go ahead.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

"shit the rest of you" says it all. Blacklist the smart guy that think the world is trash except him, and go ahead.

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Do you even know what it means?

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/...itist-jerk.png

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This means that 3 of the dps was unlucky to get killed by him, since he didn't go up and get knocked away. What a very smart person you are, are you gonna blacklist every ''smart ass'' like yourself in the process? Look what this person says, it pretty much sums up what I said too.

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Originally Posted by Selova

I'm not trying to nitpick here, but I don't think that you understand (at least from what was said in the screenshot) that he wasn't exactly calling other people "shit" he basically stated, albeit in a vulgar way "Tough luck the rest of you." While I in no way condone how he was acting towards the raid, twisting people's words to fit your personal narrative to paint them in a negative light is just as bad.

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To make it simple for you, next time understand what's going on, instead of looking silly as you and OP do now. Not only did OP make himself look silly here but pretty much gave a open book for his own performance. Smart, you both are very smart.

Man, like re-reading what that guy said: Good for him for not being willing to bang his head against a wall for two hours before politely suggesting a disband. The guy values his time, he knows his own self-worth, and he wants to get it done. This is a trait I value in human beings: Knowing what he frickin' wants, and what he has to do to get there. We call people like that project Leaders, and they get shit done. Learn to be like him, OP, instead of fluttering like a leaf in his wake. You just spent twelve hours talking about this guy, and he probably doesn't even remember who you are. That's called crushing it, bro.

I seriously don't understand why people are so set against parsers, as if it'll get worse than it already is right now.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I seriously don't understand why people are so set against parsers, as if it'll get worse than it already is right now.

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The person is average grey without deaths.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I seriously don't understand why people are so set against parsers, as if it'll get worse than it already is right now.

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It can always get worse...

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Originally Posted by Tridus

1. Improve your DPS, for which you need data

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So you spam random buttons and then just remember the combo that put out the most damage according to the parser?
Because the only thing the parser tells you is how much damage you have put out with a given combination of buttons. It does not tell you what might be a better combination of buttons.

So your only recourse is to try a different combination of buttons. But which one? The parser doesn't give you any hints. Your options to improve now are to mash buttons at random, for example by throwing a cat on the keyboard, guessing or simply copying someone else, or systematically analyze your skills and mathematically optimize potency per second. But if you do the latter, you already got the solution to your issue without a parser and the parser can only help you double check your math by giving you differing results if you fauxed up or confirming what you already knew if you didn't.

If anyone seriously tells me they need to parse Spinning Edge - Gust Slash - Aeolian Edge in all possible order combinations and compare the output of each in order to realize this order is giving the best results, I struggle to take them seriously. The math naturally gets more complex over time, but the principle doesn't change.
So please don't credit parsers for more than they are worth. They are useful monitoring and control tools that help you spot deficiencies, especially in live situations where your mind is often busy with things other than analyzing your performance. A lot like recording a fight, really. And much like you can look at a random world first video and try to copy what they do action by action, you can look at parses and copy someone performing better than you action by action. But those people most likely didn't get there by mashing random buttons either.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

So you spam random buttons and then just remember the combo that put out the most damage according to the parser?

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I'm not sure where to start with this setence...

people will never try to improve, unless someone actually tells them that they underperform
take it as a chance to get honest advices, your friends will probably never tell you "you suck"

As someone who is pro-parsers, but also has experienced what parsers can do to a community, I can understand where both sides are comming from. This still does not change the fact that a part of the playerbase is underpreforming and we as a community should try and help them improve. This is why I think that since SE is not willing to add parsers, maybe they can introduce these features instead:

- Players need to clear the Stone, Sea and Sky version of the dungeon, before they are allowed to enter.
- Give players a score, like with PvP. Higher score = more tomes, higher chance in winning a /roll for items and lower score then average = less tomes then normal and lower chance in winning the items.

This might seem radical, but this will encourage players to atleast play on a normal level, because lets face it, even if there were parsers, there would still be players who underpreform, because they do not care.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

-snip

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Yes, this is called trial and error, something used in medicine, all scientific fields, mathematics, etc. This is generally used because people aren't simply given the answer so they test any and all combinations of processes to find the best result. The parser is a tool, not an answer, don't treat it like one. It simply gives you the information and you use it how you will to improve. Sure, you can copy someone from a world first parse but you aren't them, you won't perfectly copy them. If you truly believe that something designed to give information should also give you the answer, you have fully misunderstood the purpose of a parser.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

I'm not sure where to start with this setence...

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From I can infer, Zojha is saying the best way to be good at DPS is to read and analyze the tooltips on the skills available. You look at the potencies, effects, durations, and cooldowns of each skill. Then you will know what is the best button to press for a given situation. Reading a guide can make this process a lot shorter since they calculate a lot of the math out for you. You can practice on a striking dummy(s) to make muscle memory easier.

Parsers can give a player the wrong idea since there is so much damage variance for a given run compared to another one. You would need to do something like 1000 sample runs to get an average expected value.

I feel that you cannot make people do stuff they do not want to do. Players that want help/advice will seek out aid out of their own volition. Criticism/suggestions from external sources will not necessarily make people want to improve. People that want to improve are already motivated to do that on their own.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

"shit the rest of you" says it all. Blacklist the smart guy that think the world is trash except him, and go ahead.

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It seems a lot of people in here have an inability to read, or they're just trying to twist words around to fit their own agenda. I'd believe both. The tank did not say, "shit the rest of you," the tank said, "tough shit the rest of you." Reading is hard.

tough shit (or titty)
phrase of tough

1.
vulgar slang
used to express a lack of sympathy with someone.

"i got 3 dps"
"keep the nin"
"tough shit the rest of you"

So basically, the tank is saying keep the nin and that he doesn't care what happens to the other 3 dps, as long as they leave the party.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

So you spam random buttons and then just remember the combo that put out the most damage according to the parser?
Because the only thing the parser tells you is how much damage you have put out with a given combination of buttons. It does not tell you what might be a better combination of buttons.

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Riddle me this:

How do you propose a dot centric job proceeds with any sort of high level optimisation without a parser on hand? Add in DPS cooldown usage coupled with multiple targets and things quickly get way out of hand.

This game has a significant problem with how imprecise it is in general and the wishy-washy damage feedback it presents to the player is just another facet of this. More precise timestamps coupled with dot damage being able to be routed to the chat log would do wonders and would likely make it so that people could actually work out optimal DPS openers and rotations without the need for a parser, but that would also expose just how sloppy the client/server sync is the process. The odds of that happening are pretty low as a result IMHO =/

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

If i didn't get killed because of the tank's fault, i would have get more dps than him. The only run i get as low is because other people were getting killed left and right too.

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Your logs are there for all to see and they show a MCH who can't even hit 4K (even in deathless runs).

You're the DPS who's never had to accept responsibility for your performance - your previous groups just having to make up for your low damage. When someone snaps and tells you how it is, you run to the forums and spin the anti-parser narrative. ACT and FFlogs are tools - they can be used to help players or they can be used to flame players. Responsibility for those actions rests with the players, not the tool.

Toxicity is a problem. Players who require carries are also a problem.

OP take this as an advice.
People were hitting 3,900~4,100 dps with crafted gear in O2S.
If your item level was more than 320~325 then your dps should be minimum 4k.

I’d recommend you to check good PoVs of your job and read a job guide.

Also keep in mind that in order to get decent percentile you need a decent party as well :)

Yo, I'm sorry but from that screenshot you posted, it seems this has NOTHING to do with parsing and everything to do with the tank complaining that the other tank wasn't doing mechanics properly.

And even if parsing didn't exist in any shape or form (unofficial or not), I bet this guy would still be as "toxic" as you think he's being. So please... knock it off with the "OMG PARSERS ARE BAD CUZ JERKS EXIST" attitude, and just deal with it like a mature person. If you see someone is being a dick about something, either kick them out or go find a new party with the people who agree with you.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

3,5k-4k is way more than enough for o2s

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That's around what the tanks should be doing.

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No. That's what a tank with the best gear and who uses pots ends up doing. Higher if they're optimizing party buffs. And even higher if they end up with a lucky run where they landed lots of critical/direct hits. But expecting tanks to do over 3.5k is borderline elitism. DPS should easily be staying above 4k though, but factoring deaths it is not unusual to see them drop to the 3.5k-4k range.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Actually this is why we need a parser in the game, so people can actually see themselves how bad they perform.

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Not gonna lie... I laughed way harder than I probably should have at this. It sounds so mean but at the same time it would get people to open their eyes. Thing is, I believe if someone isn't doing that great, there's a high chance they're still learning the fight. So it's not fair to immediately point fingers and kick people off just based on their parse damage. I remember when I was learning A10S, I was in a lot of parties who kept yelling at me for staying in Defiance too much. When the fact is I was still unsure of how the fight went, and I had died lots of times before due to not having enough HP. So at least give people the benefit of the doubt if they're not doing as best as they can. Sometimes it doesn't mean they're bad, but just that they haven't done the fight as much as you have.

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Originally Posted by Rikuide

Your logs are there for all to see and they show a MCH who can't even hit 4K (even in deathless runs).

You're the DPS who's never had to accept responsibility for your performance - your previous groups just having to make up for your low damage. When someone snaps and tells you how it is, you run to the forums and spin the anti-parser narrative. ACT and FFlogs are tools - they can be used to help players or they can be used to flame players. Responsibility for those actions rests with the players, not the tool.

Toxicity is a problem. Players who require carries are also a problem.

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Given that it shows people data without consent I'd but a lot of blame on the tool as it far to easy to use to abuse people.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

Not gonna lie... I laughed way harder than I probably should have at this. It sounds so mean but at the same time it would get people to open their eyes. .

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Tbh, if someone is still fresh to a fight, thats another thing. I play a lot of classes and each class I try to master in every fight (99th on war, whm and drg in most ex primals and savage). To me even if the fight has been done many times, the classes are played different and you need to understand how the fight goes with your class you are playing. Another thing is to act ''high and mighty'' and run to a forum saying they could done more than the tank if they never died, but they have an average grey percentile without deaths. That's something they shouldn't do. Obviously most people agree with me on this, that if people are new to a fight or still somewhat fresh to it, just a few clear that's fine... if they act they know the fight perfectly fine and perform bad.. well thats another story.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Given that it shows people data without consent I'd but a lot of blame on the tool as it far to easy to use to abuse people.

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Also a wakeup call for those who ''abuse'' players to play well for them to get a clear or farm. It's also a tool to tell people without anyone needing to open their mouth how bad or good they perform too. For instance having an official parser would slap many players in this game and we both know it.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

No. That's what a tank with the best gear and who uses pots ends up doing. Higher if they're optimizing party buffs. And even higher if they end up with a lucky run where they landed lots of critical/direct hits. But expecting tanks to do over 3.5k is borderline elitism. DPS should easily be staying above 4k though, but factoring deaths it is not unusual to see them drop to the 3.5k-4k range.

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You can easily hit 3.5k dps as a tank without BiS, food, or pots.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

So your only recourse is to try a different combination of buttons. But which one? The parser doesn't give you any hints. Your options to improve now are to mash buttons at random, for example by throwing a cat on the keyboard, guessing or simply copying someone else, or systematically analyze your skills and mathematically optimize potency per second. But if you do the latter, you already got the solution to your issue without a parser and the parser can only help you double check your math by giving you differing results if you fauxed up or confirming what you already knew if you didn't.

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And how do you know if you did the analysis correctly without data to test it? How do you know if you copied someone else correctly, or if the person you're copying from even knows what they're talking about without data to test it?

Oh, wait. Sounds like you need a parser to have visibility into what's working and what isn't, which is exactly what I said in the first place.

You think those world firsts and people coming up with the rotations and stat priorities everyone is copying did it without any parsers?

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Originally Posted by lulunami

I feel that you cannot make people do stuff they do not want to do. Players that want help/advice will seek out aid out of their own volition. Criticism/suggestions from external sources will not necessarily make people want to improve. People that want to improve are already motivated to do that on their own.

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But you have to realize there's a problem before you seek out help/advice. When you can simply be carried through most of the content in the game there doesn't appear to be any problem. It only slaps you when you hit an enrage or a group where everything takes forever, and then said players are more likely to blame everyone else.

The game never tells you if you're part of the problem, and why seek out advice if you think everything's fine and it's just everyone else that is bad?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...yM47LjqnU/edit

Here you go OP.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

The game never tells you if you're part of the problem, and why seek out advice if you think everything's fine and it's just everyone else that is bad?

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This flashes me back to your recent Keeper of the Lake disband.

At one point someone in the party was parsing and one DPS was doing more DPS on the final boss than the rest of the party combined. That means that other DPS (and tank and healer imo) have gotten to 50 on their selected roles without ever having to do a respectable amount of DPS.

Now if at the end of every dungeon a big F showed up on the screen for them with an overlay of "this was your dps, this is the usual expected dps for your job in this instance" that showed them they were missing key skill/gear upgrades maybe that group would have cleared.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Given that it shows people data without consent I'd but a lot of blame on the tool as it far to easy to use to abuse people.

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It also reveals the truth when it comes to stories like this one.

"The run was going fine! Smooth and easy!"

A WAR doing more damage than 3 of the DPS, even if they all died once, is not "smooth" or "easy".

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Given that it shows people data without consent I'd but a lot of blame on the tool as it far to easy to use to abuse people.

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Its not like you can't go there and make it all private if you don't want people to see it.... Also fairly certain if anyone ever uploads a parse, its so they can see their own performance, be it for further analysis or to see how it compares on ladders, not because "OOOH that dude was so bad, I'm going to upload!"