4.18 update discussion

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Originally Posted by Sicycre

[*]Increased the potency of steam cannon action “Cannonfire,” while reducing the range.

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Patch notes say Cannonfire potency was reduced, not increased. Which is correct?

Matches ran long because:

• People were new and generally didn't know what to do.
• People overfocus the wrong objectives at the wrong times.
• People are content to ride out the clock if they have the lead.

When a team focuses and pushes objectives, and maintains offensive pressure and momentum, you'd be amazed how fast wins happen.

That said, I'd like to point out the part above where it says cannon damage was increased and range decreased vs the patch notes saying cannon damage was reduced from 6000/600 to 4000/400. Which one is correct?

From the matches I've done today, it's just as some of the people here predicted: Now we have healers bum rushing the core and constantly healing mammets, netting an easy win for their team.

Not surprising. A single healer can outheal 2-3 dps on a mammet without much issue. Cannons now having a more difficult time killing healers means there's no easier way to deal with the army of them running at your core.

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Originally Posted by Jillian

Patch notes say Cannonfire potency was reduced, not increased. Which is correct?

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Apologies, for any confusion this may have caused.

We have made edits to reflect the implemented adjustments.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Sicycre

Power Generators
This is in regards to the power generators, which are placed in the center of the map. Since the power generator greatly affects the match, we’re considering adjusting the amount of ceruleum they produce. We’re also considering to see if it would be possible to make improvements to the rules to add a bit more challenge, especially around the center of the map, around the power generator.

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I'd suggest making it easier for the generator to get to a neutral state, by shortening the cast time on it for de-activating. It'd make it harder for healers to defend the generator, especially since they have cast times on their attacks.

Yea now that ive played it I feel the cannon adjustments were unnecessary. Decreased range sure, but decreasing damage on top of it is salting the earth. If you can have one healer just sitting there on the edge nuking you the whole time it takes like 4? hits to bring them down now more then enough time to cast a heal and just keep at either nuking the person on cannon or doing formula 1 races with mammets.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

So the way to move away from a healer centric meta is to move away from direct PvP.

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I'd think the opposite, the roles are getting confusing or rather switched. Healer is the new offensive role with mechs and mammets on their tow, dps is the defensive role slowing them down, and tanks.. I tried drk, surprisingly enough took 26% of a BJ before killed...

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Originally Posted by Arazehl

I'm sure players will find a new work-around to slow the match down once more. Things like camping the CE tanks, in and around the waters and caves, with yet again,"healers".

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^This. It's not really any faster, and as said above, it's just matter of time before the roles are adjusted with this new mix for both sides.

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Originally Posted by Jinglybell

Yea now that ive played it I feel the cannon adjustments were unnecessary. Decreased range sure, but decreasing damage on top of it is salting the earth. If you can have one healer just sitting there on the edge nuking you the whole time it takes like 4? hits to bring them down now more then enough time to cast a heal and just keep at either nuking the person on cannon or doing formula 1 races with mammets.

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healers were underpowered, they needed to make it easier for a healer to solo a person on a cannon.

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Originally Posted by Cluebilly

From the matches I've done today, it's just as some of the people here predicted: Now we have healers bum rushing the core and constantly healing mammets, netting an easy win for their team.

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I'm glad I got my 100 win achievement before this patch was implemented. I haven't tried it today with the new changes, but this sounds even worse. Is SE even playing their own game or even listening to what players are trying to tell them of what is so out of whack with this pvp mode?

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Originally Posted by saucyshortcake

healers were underpowered, they needed to make it easier for a healer to solo a person on a cannon.

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Healers are fine with offense as it is, defense of a healer is what is overpowered. Trying to defend your person on the cannon from a healer or even the Core. It takes way too many players to bring the opposing healer down.

I'm calling an emergency maintenance to address healers being too OP.

• Healer slot is now limited (but not required) to 1 per party.
• No further adjustments to not compromise healing in the feast. (my personal favorite lul) /goodjob

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Originally Posted by Arazehl

Healers are fine with offense as it is, defense of a healer is what is overpowered. Trying to defend your person on the cannon from a healer or even the Core. It takes way too many players to bring the opposing healer down.

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healers are the strongest mammet pusher too, you can't stop them without several dps. i've started just doing it as white mage because i can fearlessly run into several people pushing on the opposite side. if i run into two dps pushing, i just heal my own and still often manage to push forward. the only thing healers suck at is trying to kill a mech, but it's not like any mech can kill them either really outside of maybe a BJ rocket + mega beam.

Back to Seal Rock for me. Just gonna start queueing for it whenever I'm on, and I'd encourage anyone who remembers it/wants to try it/isn't happy with the current state of Rival Wings to do the same.

At least healers are healers there.

Well my gorilla and I just got back from running RW. OMG what a joke this patch is. They did nothing with the healers, but help more of them to take over this pvp mode. I saw more healers this time than ever before. I'm am glad I got my 100th achievement before this awful patch. What was SE thinking? I swear they don't play their own game.

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Originally Posted by Etrius

I'm calling an emergency maintenance to address healers being too OP.

• Healer slot is now limited (but not required) to 1 per party.
• No further adjustments to not compromise healing in the feast. (my personal favorite lul) /goodjob

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I couldn't agree more!

I just played a few matches post 4.18 update. Wow, all I have to say, the new change to the cannon system. One word, GARBAGE. What is the point of the last defense when it takes you at least 3-4 shots to kill a regular dps? I am not even counting tank/healer.

Well, they kind of didn't achieve their goal in ending matches quicker. Many still end at 20 minutes, though the core is damaged more. What they did do was pretty much give the game to whoever gets a side down to a core first. Because they can make mechs so fast, you can't really push back; you need the ccs to take down oppressors, because your players are getting mobbed and two shot by their multiple ccs. So it's still stalling defensively, its just less effective. I mean you can't really push back once they have 6 mechs.

It's a little busier now that you constantly need to be in a lane. But man, SE, please playtest stuff with actual players. This is 24 man Pvp, it wont hurt things if you do.

Rip spawn camp. Was fun.

I just can't believe all the healer classes now. Seems the alliances are 65% healers, and the side that wins is the one with the most healers at the start of the match. Far more healers now than before the patch.

I know I won't be doing anymore Rival Wings until they fix healer class being so OP and it can die just like the others. Again SE needs to get on a play these matches with other players more often and not just run a few test runs through, then call it good. :(

I think the Cannonfire changes were needed. Previously it was nearly impossible for a mech to use the ramps without instantly dying. In their current state, cannons are strong against mechs and (non-healer) players, but not overpowered.

The fact that a single healer can tank two cannons working in tandem without breaking a sweat, is an issue with healers being overpowered, not with cannons being underpowered. Healers need a major nerf, and this is just another sign of it.

I also think that 3000-tonze Missile needs a range reduction. Now that Steam Cannons can't instantly kill Oppressors, it's an unfair advantage for Oppressors to be able to hide behind the north fence, firing their Missiles, while Steam Cannons are powerless to stop them.

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Originally Posted by Arazehl

I just can't believe all the healer classes now. Seems the alliances are 65% healers, and the side that wins is the one with the most healers at the start of the match. Far more healers now than before the patch.

I know I won't be doing anymore Rival Wings until they fix healer class being so OP and it can die just like the others. Again SE needs to get on a play these matches with other players more often and not just run a few test runs through, then call it good. :(

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Go DPS and burn their mechs. That's what I did last night and against more healers than we had. Play against the mech, not the player.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

The fact that a single healer can tank two cannons working in tandem without breaking a sweat, is an issue with healers being overpowered, not with cannons being underpowered. Healers need a major nerf, and this is just another sign of it.

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Why is this an issue? A healer isn't going to burn your core, heal the mech or anything much substantial if they are within cannon range. People are commonly playing the PC not the mechs and that is a bigger issue. Mechs are going to do more damage to fellow PC's, towers, core, etc. So why aren't you focusing on them.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

I think the Cannonfire changes were needed. Previously it was nearly impossible for a mech to use the ramps without instantly dying. In their current state, cannons are strong against mechs and (non-healer) players, but not overpowered.

The fact that a single healer can tank two cannons working in tandem without breaking a sweat, is an issue with healers being overpowered, not with cannons being underpowered. Healers need a major nerf, and this is just another sign of it.

I also think that 3000-tonze Missile needs a range reduction. Now that Steam Cannons can't instantly kill Oppressors, it's an unfair advantage for Oppressors to be able to hide behind the north fence, firing their Missiles, while Steam Cannons are powerless to stop them.

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Many times I led a mech right up the south ramp due to the south cannon's failure to watch for me.

And no, the cannons did their job just fine before, even against healers. They don't now, which only worsens the issues with healers currently.

And as for the north blind spot, the cannon's couldn't reach there before anyways. If the opponent was able to get an Oppressor that close uncontested, that's a failing of your team to actively try to prevent it from getting that far, which isn't hard to do.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

And as for the north blind spot, the cannon's couldn't reach there before anyways.

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There was arguably a reason for the north blind spot, when the Steam Cannons could take out your mechs in a second. With no way to safely attack when in cannon range, Oppressors needed a safe spot they could fire from. Now that Steam Cannons can't take out Opressors nearly as quickly, having the north blind spot is imbalanced. If Oppressors were forced to come within Steam Cannon range to fire off their 300-tonze Missile, they would still easily be able to get off at least one shot before being taken out by the weakened cannons.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

If the opponent was able to get an Oppressor that close uncontested, that's a failing of your team to actively try to prevent it from getting that far, which isn't hard to do.

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The cannons are a last line of defense. Honestly, if you're even in a position where your team is using them, it could already be too late. But having your last line of defense be literally incapable of stopping the main enemy offense is a design flaw.

There would be easy way nerf healers. Remove ability healing mammets.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

There would be easy way nerf healers. Remove ability healing mammets.

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I could get behind this. Would also burden healer heavy teams since DPS heavy teams could burn down mechs/mammets faster.

Yep. Mammets should not be healable.

Or if they absolutely have to be, make it so healing for them is reduced

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Originally Posted by Sunako

There would be easy way nerf healers. Remove ability healing mammets.

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I don't think this is the way to fix what is really the problem with healers. It maybe a bit of a problem now, because of the patch and the opposing alliance is mostly healers, but they have too much defense at the tips of their fingers, that they will just adjust yet again regardless if mammets are made no heals and take advantage camping something else.

Actually, considering mammets are the autopilot function of the game mode, I'd be fine with them not being able to heal mammets. I'd rather they fix Soaring on healers first, but remove the ability for healers to just effectively block any objective by being there, and maybe they'll actually have to work with their team to stop incoming threats instead of just restoration tanking whatever they want.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

The cannons are a last line of defense. Honestly, if you're even in a position where your team is using them, it could already be too late. But having your last line of defense be literally incapable of stopping the main enemy offense is a design flaw.

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The cannons were an effective line of defense. If by some chance I had some random runner going for the core and I could hop on a cannon in time, I could drop him faster that way than if I were to skirmish with them. That goes double if they were a healer. I could take aim and start trying to destroy or fend off an enemy mech if they carelessly entered cannon range, and for all but the blind spot, I could actively defend the core. Couldn't hit everything, but what I hit counted tremendously. Cannons did their job just fine.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Go DPS and burn their mechs. That's what I did last night and against more healers than we had. Play against the mech, not the player.

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Sounds good in theory. In reality, mechs have dps escorts, and those dps are supported by healers. If I ignore the players and focus on mechs, well, I die from the players focusing on me.

Mechs can't be healed, so if you focus them down, even with DPS/healer escorts they really can't "stop" you so much as delay you.

A good mech player won't engage you on his own, and will constantly use their speed to force you to chase them. That's when the escorts come into play. A good escort tends to bind or stun you to set you up for beam sword, and it's very nasty. It's easier if you are a job with a good gap closer and low casting time ranged attacks. Mechs are only vulnerable if escorting an oppressor, really

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Originally Posted by Sunako

There would be easy way nerf healers. Remove ability healing mammets.

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"Guys, we have a problem: We made healer abilities broken. How do we fix?"
"Make their abilities not work on stuff."
/eureka

Why not go a step further and remove the ability of healers to heal players inside the generator room as well to fix them holding the objective while we're at it? I mean, anything but touching the actual issue, no?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

"Guys, we have a problem: We made healer abilities broken. How do we fix?"
"Make their abilities not work on stuff."
/eureka

Why not go a step further and remove the ability of healers to heal players inside the generator room as well to fix them holding the objective while we're at it? I mean, anything but touching the actual issue, no?

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There's only 1 objective that is non-healing, killing mechs, and that counts as defensive measure because we're reacting to enemy. With cannons (the last defense line) nerfed, there is no counter balance. Mammets are purely offensive, controlled by supposedly defensive role. That's where the imbalance comes from. Would be great if a role does exactly what its meant to do, but at this point they so messed up that countering attacks is very hard without the roles put back in their place.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Mechs can't be healed, so if you focus them down, even with DPS/healer escorts they really can't "stop" you so much as delay you.

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Nah, this is fairytale, honestly. Let's not assume that people are idiots 99% of the time.

If you don't have a healer, they will kill you in 5 or 7.5 seconds(aka 2-3 GCD, depending on how many attacks you), unless they are blind or you are a tank.
Most of the time only a small number of people try to intercept enemy Opressor and if they don't have a healer, they die fast.

I never said you'll survive it, but unless they eject, they can't undo the damage you do. So go wild. They'll literally HAVE to focus you to stop you.

On topic: i seriously think that they will nerf Brute Justice in the next "evaluation".
How dare it to be that effective #2 (#1 was Cannons)

People really underestimate BJs effectiveness and when -cough- someone waste one or two it can lead you to a loss solely because of that, i.e. those 2 players, who can't aim and don't know what they are doing in a BJ. Sure, people want to learn(how BJ works), but it will cost a game for other 23 people.

One Brute Justice used:
https://i.imgur.com/USzsle5.png


BJs now even more stronger at attacking enemy Core, considering a new Cannons.

TL;DR Back to slacking in Shatter and Seal Rock. Need 90 Shatter and 80 Seal Rock wins :x

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I never said you'll survive it, but unless they eject, they can't undo the damage you do. So go wild. They'll literally HAVE to focus you to stop you.

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Sometimes it's better to wait(a little) for a Chaser, than going and die with 3k damage dealt. So that Chaser can divert attention and you can safely DPS an Opressor.

It's definitely something you play by ear. If you can't wait for a Chaser, or if there's an opportunity to flank them, take it. Many times I've downed an enemy mech simply by flanking them and attacking from behind both the mech and its escorts. I'm not going to say it's easy, but I'd hardly call it difficult. It's really just a matter of reading the map/enemy positions and finding the best way around it.

Sometimes however, the unpredictability of just rushing them not only works, but ruins any attempts at defensive formation. I don't however want to put this out there like a highly effective strategy that should be used anytime.