Red Mage could use some help.

In Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood, its job is DPS. Its primary goal is DPS. If we wanted something to be more defensively balanced, it should have been a healer.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Didn’t read the thread but what RDM needs is +magic damage on Embolden and honestly that’s about it. Possibly consider removing the diminishing buff time.

RDM should absolutely be the weakest caster and the best support, so fixing its support should suffice. The biggest issue with RDM is that they overbuffed SMN.

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Actually SMN should be the weakest and BLM the strong with RDM in the middle. Why? Because as it stands SMN has the most support abilities of the three. SE needs to address caster raise issue as a whole and most likely just needs to do minor potency changes to RDM to bring it up.

I suppose you're welcome to your opinion, but it's clear that the developers think otherwise, seeing as how it is in fact a DPS that has Vercure and Verraise and Embolden, which was the biggest support from a caster at the start of 4.0.

They learned from their mistake with Arcanist, so it would be senseless to have it able to queue as both healer and DPS, so DPS it was. Everything I've said still stands.

To hammer it home: I do think that Embolden could use a fix, but the job does plenty of damage for what it does and needs. The biggest thing wrong with RDM right now is that SMN is too good (and BRD+MCH, for that matter). Furthermore, BLM is in much worse shape so please find your place at the end of the line. Thank you for your cooperation.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I suppose you're welcome to your opinion, but it's clear that the developers think otherwise, seeing as how it is in fact a DPS that has Vercure and Verraise and Embolden, which was the biggest support from a caster at the start of 4.0.

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"I suppose you're welcome to your opinion, but it's clear the developers think otherwise, seeing as how it is in fact Black Mage is a selfish DPS and has no support abilities at all."

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They learned from their mistake with Arcanist, so it would be senseless to have it able to queue as both healer and DPS, so DPS it was. Everything I've said still stands.

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I never said it should be able to queue as either healer or dps. I said, if they want to have a defensively balanced DPS, make it a healer instead.

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To hammer it home: I do think that Embolden could use a fix, but the job does plenty of damage for what it does and needs.

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READ: RDM is a training wheels job for the group and anyone who enjoys it in high end content should get used to tossing it aside for more damage later.

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The biggest thing wrong with RDM right now is that SMN is too good (and BRD+MCH, for that matter).

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When everything else is too good...another possible conclusion is that one isn't good enough.

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Furthermore, BLM is in much worse shape so please find your place at the end of the line. Thank you for your cooperation.

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Because only one job can be worked on at a time right? Didn't realize there was a queue. DRK and MNK are in front of you though so please find your place behind them too and stop complaining.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

snip.

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1. Don't call me friend, I don't like you.
2. "Jack of all trades" hurr durr. This isn't a classic FF title, we have 3 roles, Healers, DPS, and Tanks. Red Mage is in the DPS role, not the special green and red Support role that doesn't exist.
3. Simplicity != lower DPS, Yoshi said as much in a live letter. Utility is incredibly poor, see other posts and try to read with an open mind instead of the "Well BLM has it worse so there" attitude you've got.
4. Vercure has never, ever saved a party from a wipe unless you count panic Vercures when the entire party is above 80% health. Dualcasting it is a loss of 540 or 570 potency, and you're dealing no other damage during that time unless you have oGCD's up. Also it's very MP inefficient, costing nearly 10% of your mana Dualcasting it.

Everyone on here supporting Red Mage buffs likes Red Mage, we dislike that the job has been reduced to "Progression Babysitter". Nobody said it should be the strongest either, we all just want it to be competitive after progression is over. When your team is making no mistakes or few enough that healers can handle the sporadic deaths, there's nothing special about bringing Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by Bernkastelx

Rdm does not need a dmg buff its fine where it is. Arguing verraise is useless after progression is moot. Unless you are the top 2% of the elite raiders you are stillgoing to be seeing people making mistakes and dying in "Farm" Parties. Where both healers die its usually a wipe but not yet if u have a rdm in the group.

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It's far from moot. You don't need to be pro to stop dying so much after having learned a fight. If you want to argue that you like RDM's identity as a PUG and/or progression-friendly support DPS, that's fine, but let's not pretend that there aren't plenty of situations in which RDM's utility is irrelevant. Besides, let's not forget that daily casual content is a huge portion of many players' game time, and while I've had the occasional run with terrible players, I've never once thought, "gee, we could have made it with a RDM." It's usually more like "gee, I wish the RDM would stop trying to help the healer who clearly doesn't need it and get back to attacking."

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Fair enough, forget that I brought up "jack of all trades".

It's the balanced offensive and defensive magic job, and always has been. See also: not the strongest at offensive, not the strongest at defensive.

How about now.

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In the context of this game, that's not a flattering description at all.

When you strip away all the lore fluff and look at mechanics, RDM's claim to fame among the DPS classes is being able to rez quickly and provide backup heals, a utility that is often completely unnecessary and further lowers their DPS capability.

I don't see anything wrong with RDM not being a top-tier personal damage-dealer, but my concern is that it will become progressively less competitive if it continues to be balanced against its healing and rez capability. It shouldn't lag as far behind as it does.

I am of the opinion that no job should feel like it has to be rotated out just because part of its utility is no longer needed. That's currently happening to Red Mage, therefore it's primary role (Damage Dealing, as indicated on the color of its box.) Should be boosted to compensate. It's that simple.

Honestly, beyond stating my standards I don't have a dog in this race, as 8 man prog isn't fun for me anyways. Some of the fights look amazing, but the grind to get there is intolerable. I'm just burning out to typical MMO mechanical tropes these days. Why grind for gear that's outdated. The burnout is a lot faster in FFXIV's sake too due to how quickly the gear rotation comes out. (Not that I'm ungrateful for the consistant content schedule though, could have a 9 month content gap coming like some other game I know.) I'm just hoping "Not Diadem this time, we swear." comes with some more interesting forms of progression.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

So if RDM becomes the strongest caster and has good utility, tell me, why bring anything else? ...

It sounds to me like if you don't want to play that job then don't play it. Simple.

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I'm not gonna speak for anyone else, but I will say this. I want RDM's damage capabilities to reflect its utility. But as it is now, it simultaneously brings less to the table than many other classes in terms of utility while also bringing less damage than any other class.

That's the thing I'm personally disappointed by. Red mage either needs more utility to justify it's place on the scoreboards or it needs more damage to justify the low utility it brings. And, as I've explained before, it DOES have low utility even counting ver-raise and ver-cure, which are hardly worth considering.

Also, I play red mage because sword and sorcery is totally my thing, and I also absolutely love the playstyle. If the class you liked got the shaft, would you not complain?

I do not have rdm at 70 yet, but so far I find the job to boring to play for more than a dungeon run or two. Something needs to change with them to make them more engaging.

The flaming from the other two aside, RDM's damage already reflects its utility, as I've said about half a dozen times. The biggest issue with RDM is that SMN was overtuned.

And not only did the class I like "get the shaft" but it's actually straight up awful and actively shunned by groups. Yours is not. Sure people might want SMNs more than RDMs but last I checked absolutely no one is angry about having a RDM in their group. So yes, here I am complaining that you (all) are upset with your relatively well-balanced job (once again, I do believe Embolden deserves a fix to make it stronger than Devotion), meanwhile other jobs are in blatant and desperate need of help as they are considered useless. Fight me.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

The flaming from the other two aside, RDM's damage already reflects its utility, as I've said about half a dozen times. The biggest issue with RDM is that SMN was overtuned.

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Not really, RDM damage/utility even is even worse than BLM right now. Their personal dps is lower than bard/mch while their utility only bring like 200 party dps while mch/bard bring 400+ dps with their utility and even BLM do more than 300 personal dps than than RDM. I dont even play RDM, but I can agree the fact RDM is worst spot damage wise than any other dps job right now. Surely it is good in progress that allow you practice certain phases even if that make boss enrage. But the fact is both jobs need some adjustments.

To me that reflects on BRD MCH being too good, particularly too good when used together, and the need for the upheaval of physical meta and a more pertinent need for "role lock" (i.e. one ranged one caster one melee one auxiliary). This is also exemplified in "power creep" as I think Remedi pointed out several times: everyone complained for BRD/MCH buffs because they thought they were too weak and now they're just OP asf.

Furthermore, the top RDMs had no issues making enrages during deltascape savage progression, myself included. I can't speak from experience in Unending Coil (and definitely you wouldn't catch me dead in there on RDM because #SMNisGod), but I'm quite sure that with well-used Embolden, combos, and potions that the class would be just fine.

And lastly, if not most obviously, any major buff to RDM is just going to put BLM even further under its SUPPOSED "highest damage lowest utility" role (which it already doesn't fulfill), and is a big part of the reason that there is in fact "a line" for buffs, contrary to what dualgunner seems to think.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

The flaming from the other two aside, RDM's damage already reflects its utility, as I've said about half a dozen times. The biggest issue with RDM is that SMN was overtuned.

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Arguing with you is flaming now? What do we call running into other threads posting shit like "Angry bump because RDM want buffs too but I don't want them to have them because BLM needs to be the only people buffed"?

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And not only did the class I like "get the shaft" but it's actually straight up awful and actively shunned by groups. Yours is not.

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Which is absolutely why we can't even have one thread asking for buffs.

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Sure people might want SMNs more than RDMs but last I checked absolutely no one is angry about having a RDM in their group. So yes, here I am complaining that you (all) are upset with your relatively well-balanced job (once again, I do believe Embolden deserves a fix to make it stronger than Devotion), meanwhile other jobs are in blatant and desperate need of help as they are considered useless. Fight me.

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I will fight you, every step you take.

Black Mage has several threads dedicated to its needed buffs. RDM now has one. If you can't handle that, I dunno what to say to you. But wanna know who has even more than BLM? DRK. So if you're gonna continue this stupid crusade, you sit down and wait your damn turn while DRK gets buffed. And then MNK. Then it can finally be your turn.

Daybreak was definitely flaming and your "as if only one job could be worked on at a time" could certainly be interpreted as flaming. And your "quote" of what I said is completely inaccurate.

See once more that MNK is perfectly fine, in fact MNK is already creeping on SAM, and that while DRK could use some help it's not like its actively shunned (see also the world first clear of unending coil).

Once again, nice try on all this, though. Why don't we advocate together the utility aspect of RDM rather than fight over nothing? Do you really not agree that RDM's utility should be the strongest and that SMNs was overtuned? The solution is to fix the utility aspect, not the damage (because power creep). I don't think that is complicated.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Daybreak was definitely flaming and your "as if only one job could be worked on at a time" could certainly be interpreted as flaming. And your "quote" of what I said is completely inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Angry bump because there are people thinking that RDM needs help right now, which to be fair it is undertuned now that SMN is a god, but seriously wait your damn turn.

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Yeah. Completely inaccurate.

If you want to take that as flaming, then go ahead. I was merely elucidating what your argument sounds like to others.

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See once more that MNK is perfectly fine, in fact MNK is already creeping on SAM, and that while DRK could use some help it's not like its actively shunned (see also the world first clear of unending coil).

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So? I'll concede a bit on MNK, but DRK has been asking for longer. If we're playing by "sit down and wait your turn", it's not BLM's turn until DRK is buffed.

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Once again, nice try on all this, though. Why don't we advocate together the utility aspect of RDM rather than fight over nothing?

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You're the one who came in here complaining that Red Mage is complaining about anything. You're the one who started spouting off stuff about it needing to be the weakest because of it being a joat, then you backpedaled when I said joat could easily mean it needs to be the highest tuned. You then started talking about it being some sort of "defensive dps"; defensively tuned anything in this game is bad. Ask 3.x PLD and 3.x WHM for more info on that.

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Do you really not agree that RDM's utility should be the strongest and that SMNs was overtuned? The solution is to fix the utility aspect, not the damage (because power creep). I don't think that is complicated.

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I absolutely agree Summoners were overtuned. I disagree that RDM's utility could be considered anywhere near the strongest while Embolden is the only trick in its bag for positive utility, while the rest is negative utility. Small potency buffs, alongside an embolden buff; that's all I think RDM really needs.

This is what killed WoW for me, was the constant complaints about not doing enough DPS or dmg. Look not every class needs to be the top of the DPS charts just because people don't like seeing smaller numbers, while SMN, BRD, etc constantly does more dps. You know what BRD doesn't have? Heals, raise, tether, etc. SMN has a pet, we have better heals. Each job has it's own thing, only thing that needs to change imo is holy and flare which could be AOE.

All this does is create a vicious cycle of nerfing and buffing jobs, unless everyone puts out the exact same damage/dps as the next person, everyone gets a pet, heals, raise, it will just continue on forever but even then it would be well there's no point in picking this job over that job because reasons. If the job is failing to keep up then I can see a change is needed, otherwise leave it alone.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Look not every class needs to be the top of the DPS charts just because people don't like seeing smaller numbers, while SMN, BRD, etc constantly does more dps.

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we're not trying to make rdm the top dps. As it stands, the argument is that RDM has too little utility for its low damage. We want them to bring its utility in line with its damage, or vice-versa.

Honestly it's a little insulting that you interpret this desire as a childish wish of "my class needs to be the best QQ".

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Originally Posted by JohnnyDevo

we're not trying to make rdm the top dps. As it stands, the argument is that RDM has too little utility for its low damage. We want them to bring its utility in line with its damage, or vice-versa.

Honestly it's a little insulting that you interpret this desire as a childish wish of "my class needs to be the best QQ".

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Forgive me that's not my intentions, but you have to admit whenever a thread like this pops up it's usually dealing with my class/job is broken, it doesn't do enough dmg, it's not doing this.

I guess I fail to understand what people refer to as utility. I always thought utility was raise, heals, etc, if it's not this then I guess I have no idea what you exactly want more of?

Crabs in a bucket, man -_- rdm should offer the best "utility" of the 3 casters and slightly less Dps, Smn should be more Dps less utility and Blm should be most dps least/currently no utility, that's fairly well established right? Rdm need a little bit of a damage buff now that the giddy thrill of prog has worn off and no one needs them to just vomit rez's at everyone. The job needs to remain feeling satisfying and the fact that it seems to be so dissatisfying so soon after it's introduction means that it does need addressing. Don't gotta push other groups of people down just because you feel like your personal class has more pressing issues or you don't personally see the problem.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

I guess I fail to understand what people refer to as utility. I always thought utility was raise, heals, etc, if it's not this then I guess I have no idea what you exactly want more of?

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Again, the issue is that rezzing and healing adds no damage utility unless the party is having severe issues. This is why RDM is a valuable progression Job and becomes less valuable as people stop making mistakes.

I don't see RDM as a top DPS, but they probably shouldn't be below BRD.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

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Not liking you is not flaming. Every single time people try to have a productive discussion about other casters, you show up and splutter about BLM without fail. You declare things as absolute truths that are nothing more than opinions. You have no objectivity and you were among the "nerf RDM first" crowd that popped up in the first few weeks because of a bug then you joined the "Vercure/Verraise is too strong" crowd. Now you're in this category of "Well if BLM doesn't get anything why should RDM?". By all appearances you have a tacit grudge against the class for god knows why.

So no, I don't like you. I don't like people like you. You come in here and derail threads because you not getting BLM buffs is a personal affront to you for some reason. God forbid anyone else have any issues because BLM has some.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

So? I'll concede a bit on MNK, but DRK has been asking for longer. If we're playing by "sit down and wait your turn", it's not BLM's turn until DRK is buffed.

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The issues Monk has are so much more longstanding than Stormblood it's just sad. The complaints people have with Fist Stances, Arm of the Destroyer, Perfect Balance and One Ilm Punch have existed since ARR and the issues with Purification and Tornado Kick have existed since Heavensward. Just because Stormblood introduced a whole new host of issues with the Jobs kit doesn't reset the timer for how long the Job has needed some attention.

That said job Balance and quality of life isn't a zero sum game. Just because Red Mage needs more damage doesn't mean Black Mage doesn't also need more damage or that Samurai might need more damage, or that Monk doesn't need its trashfire of a kit to actually get looked at with a critical eye.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Just because Stormblood introduced a whole new host of issues with the Jobs kit doesn't reset the timer for how long the Job has needed some attention.

That said job Balance and quality of life isn't a zero sum game. Just because Red Mage needs more damage doesn't mean Black Mage doesn't also need more damage or that Samurai might need more damage, or that Monk doesn't need its trashfire of a kit to actually get looked at with a critical eye.

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You're absolutely right on all fronts. I am not personally intimately knowledgeable about monk, so I decided not to press there. You are also right about it not being a zero sum game which was my point--but I was admittedly very heated at that moment in time and I apologize for lacking clarity.

I explained this in the other thread, but I'll explain it here again shortly and sweetly:

ANY amount of damage creep from RDM onto BLM will drastically reduce BLM's value. The ONLY reason to bring BLM into a group is its pure damage output, so if the gap between RDM and BLM is lowered, then the value of bringing a BLM is gone. So yes, in this sense, it REALLY IS zero-sum, whether we like it or not. (Why take BLM's marginally stronger damage if RDM does almost as much and buffs the whole party?)

Increased offensive utility is a must, but increased single target damage, on account of this, is a must not.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I explained this in the other thread, but I'll explain it here again shortly and sweetly:

ANY amount of damage creep from RDM onto BLM will drastically reduce BLM's value. The ONLY reason to bring BLM into a group is its pure damage output, so if the gap between RDM and BLM is lowered, then the value of bringing a BLM is gone. So yes, in this sense, it REALLY IS zero-sum, whether we like it or not. (Why take BLM's marginally stronger damage if RDM does almost as much and buffs the whole party?)

Increased offensive utility is a must, but increased single target damage, on account of this, is a must not.

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"Children in africa are starving, therefore your credit card debt issue is invalid".

I know BLM is in a bad spot. But frankly, I don't care because I don't play BLM. Buff blm, sure, whatever. But I'm saying don't leave RDM hanging.

You keep saying that as if Red Mage would be buffed in a vacuum. If Black Mage got the buffs it needed, the marginal buffs RDM is asking for--the stuff to put it at least above BRD--would not close the gulf, it just wouldn't be as big a gulf as if BLM got its buffs alone.

There you go stating opinions as fact again. You realize balance teams are not limited to working on a single class right? Red Mage needs mild amount of both increased offensive utility (essentially rDPS contribution) and single target damage increase. Again, as many people have stated already and you won't listen. We don't want Red Mage to be the strongest, we want it to be competitive aside from progression.

You're not wrong, I suppose, but I would be VERY skeptical that they would give BLM such strong buffs as to "keep" such a gap there.

Never forget the golden rule: groups want to be fed, not to feed. Groups will always favor stacking utility together over feeding one player. This is the bigest part of the reason that DRG+BRD+MCH+NIN work so well together and other jobs can't seem to "break in" to this meta.

Sooner, they should just dispose of the idea of "raw damage as utility" completely, because utility IS damage, just damage from the party not from the player.

I wasn't a fan of "raw damage as utility" since Heavensward. I think it traces all the way back to the old days of DRG vs MNK, where DRG was weaker than MNK but brought out more damage from BRD, who themselves brought more damage out of casters with Foe's. But I wasn't very active in learning how the game actually worked back then.

I do wish that jobs that were added with the sole intent of their damage being buffs for others' damage were relegated to a Support Role, rather than lumped into the DPS role.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

ANY amount of damage creep from RDM onto BLM will drastically reduce BLM's value.

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I'll be blunt. BLM has no value. It's entirely worthless right now because everything it does, SMN does it better. If SE refuses to give BLM the substantial buff it needs without nerfing SMN, it won't matter a hoot what happens to RDM relative to the caster meta. On the other hand, if they do make proper adjustments, any moderate increase to RDM's DPS won't impact BLM whatsoever.

Or, they could give it some depth of mechanics that allow for a meaningful skill ceiling and attract more of the upper end players outside of the most high-casualty or mobility-requiring sections of progression.

But nah, categories -- (Do you want the black one now, or the white one? You done picked the wrong one! There is no nuance to this checklist!) -- are clearly wonderful and sufficient.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Again, the issue is that rezzing and healing adds no damage utility unless the party is having severe issues. This is why RDM is a valuable progression Job and becomes less valuable as people stop making mistakes.

I don't see RDM as a top DPS, but they probably shouldn't be below BRD.

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So this is about wanting more damage afterall? I thougt this was about utility?

Utility:noun
1.
the state of being useful, profitable, or beneficial.

Utility: adjective
1.
useful, especially through being able to perform several functions.

I don't know what BRD is like past 50 as I stopped playing it in HW because of having to be a caster by not moving, but I can tell you that most DPS jobs make up most of their DPS from auto attacks, BRD being ranged is always decent DPS because it can move and still be attacking, while RDM can auto attack as well they generally aren't putting a lot of damage out on their auto attacks.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

So this is about wanting more damage afterall? I thougt this was about utility?

Utility:noun
1.
the state of being useful, profitable, or beneficial.

Utility: adjective
1.
useful, especially through being able to perform several functions.

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The dictionary definition of utility isn't going to work here; we're using it to mean a very different thing. In XIV when we say utility, we're generally referring to things a DPS brings that isn't DPS; this can range from heals to raises to refreshes and restores. Damage utility is then what we use to describe a DPS bringing that affects other players' DPS; ie, Trick Attack.

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I don't know what BRD is like past 50 as I stopped playing it in HW because of having to be a caster by not moving, but I can tell you that most DPS jobs make up most of their DPS from auto attacks, BRD being ranged is always decent DPS because it can move and still be attacking, while RDM can auto attack as well they generally aren't putting a lot of damage out on their auto attacks.

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This doesn't really mean anything in the greater scheme of things.

Bard provides more utility and damage utility than Red Mage; the way Yoshi has gone on record saying about balance, is the more utility/damage utility a job brings, the less damage they bring. At the moment, in both RDM's and BLM's case, this is not true: BLM brings no unique utility, therefore it should be on or above the same tier of damage as a samurai. As stated before, RDM brings less utility and less damage than bard.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Or, they could give it some depth of mechanics that allow for a meaningful skill ceiling and attract more of the upper end players outside of the most high-casualty or mobility-requiring sections of progression.

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Won't be surprised if RDM gets some kind of Vernochian styled mechanic in 5.0. RDM now reminds me a lot of how simple BLM was in 2.x.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

The dictionary definition of utility isn't going to work here; we're using it to mean a very different thing. In XIV when we say utility, we're generally referring to things a DPS brings that isn't DPS; this can range from heals to raises to refreshes and restores. Damage utility is then what we use to describe a DPS bringing that affects other players' DPS; ie, Trick Attack.



This doesn't really mean anything in the greater scheme of things.

Bard provides more utility and damage utility than Red Mage; the way Yoshi has gone on record saying about balance, is the more utility/damage utility a job brings, the less damage they bring. At the moment, in both RDM's and BLM's case, this is not true: BLM brings no unique utility, therefore it should be on or above the same tier of damage as a samurai. As stated before, RDM brings less utility and less damage than bard.


Won't be surprised if RDM gets some kind of Vernochian styled mechanic in 5.0. RDM now reminds me a lot of how simple BLM was in 2.x.

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Pretty sure the "ease" of play was also apart of the decicion making process for the DPS, but I could be wrong. (Which would mean SAM should be lower in DPS)
But either way, RDM might not surpass the casters in DPS or support over all, but they do offer some unique bennefits, so in the end, its not like DRK, which literally has nothing that other tanks have better.
RDM does have +1 more insta raise from SMN, and does offer a physical buff, for physical heavy parties.
Something BLM and SMN doesnt offer.

compared to BRD, RDM offers the better AoE LB3.

This of course doesnt make RDM better than all other DPS, just that it does offer something, that some other DPSs cant offer in the same way.

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Won't be surprised if RDM gets some kind of Vernochian styled mechanic in 5.0. RDM now reminds me a lot of how simple BLM was in 2.x.

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I actually expect as much.
And of course, I probably wont come back, now that they've removed just about every job or playstyle ive liked, leaving RDM the only one I enjoy atm.
(Not so much because i like simple, but because simple helps with something else. After hours of my raid group slamming their head on the same savage fight, i usually get mentally fatigued, and it stops being fun after 15-45mins, and im looking for any excuse to quit playing.
But for RDM i just dont get tired, and am still happy cheery and wanting to play more.)

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Originally Posted by Shouko

I don't know what BRD is like past 50 as I stopped playing it in HW because of having to be a caster by not moving, but I can tell you that most DPS jobs make up most of their DPS from auto attacks, BRD being ranged is always decent DPS because it can move and still be attacking, while RDM can auto attack as well they generally aren't putting a lot of damage out on their auto attacks.

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(Just gonna repeat junk people said, but might as well clarify this...)

Caster autos do nothing. Like, they seriously do nothing. They do 0.5% of their dps or less (for Black Mage and Red Mage especially, which somehow have weaker autos than Summoner. I'm not sure how book smacking is stronger than using a staff or a sabre, but sure SE, sure).
Bard isn't strong only because it's always autoing. Bard is strong because it's always executing it's rotation perfectly regardless of mechanics. Not just autos, but all ogcds and weaponskills too. You have perfect uptime with bard unless you goof up and stop pressing buttons for some reason.

Not sure what's the difficulty with "utility" either. People understand by utility any beneficial effect (any buff) that helps the party in some way that is not tied directly to your own personal dps. Raging Strikes isn't utility because it's just a damage modifier on your own inherent damage. It's accounted for in your personal dps. Battle Voice is utility because it benefits the whole party and not just yourself. This adds another interesting layer- utility varies depending on party composition and overall execution. Personal buffs, not so much.

People further like to make a distinction between offensive and defensive utility. The former is simple and highly desirable- it gives the whole party more damage. Damage is always useful- it's always live (unless you're an idiot and use a party dps buff while there's no target to hit) and it either helps push phases or clear faster (the faster you clear, the less likely you are to mess up).
Defensive utility is something like Troubadour- a defensive buff that makes it easier to deal with a mechanic. This is a bit harder to quantify in terms of usefulness. Optimally used, it should also bring you a dps gain (healers heal less and can dps more, tanks can stay in dps stance, things like that), but they are harder to use to maximum effectiveness and require more party coordination. It's easier to drop a balance 5 gcds in than it is to coordinate when the tank goes dps stance because shadewalker and apoc are timed perfectly to he can soak up the tankbuster like that.

And how does this relate to Red Mage?
Red Mage has three primary sources of unique utility- Embolden, Vercure and Verraise.
Embolden is offensive utility, so there's not much to talk there. It's effect isn't particularly powerful (it brings like a 300 raid dps increase if well timed), but it's always good to have. It has a nefarious effect of pushing the meta into this dumb metacomp we have because casters do not benefit from it, which is a problem in itself, but since the meta favours physical dps, Red Mage isn't too concerned about this in a practical setting (though it should affect casters for the sake of parity).
The issue comes with the defensive utility. Vercure is downright useless in a raid. Pretend it's not there.
Verraise is very hard to quantify. It simplifies progression by allowing you salvage mistakes, sparing your healers the mana cost of a raise, doing it basically on demand for a small dps loss and allow recovery in tough spots (if you need to aoe heal and raise and the same time, Red Mage used to be the only job that could save the day). Verraise is quite powerful, even in Ultimate progression, despite what some people claim.
What people here are saying, however, is that this utility does not justify Red Mage's low overall damage, both personal and in terms of offensive utility.

And they're right. In a vacuum, Red Mage is great for progression. Not so great for speed killing, but it has a strong, well-defined niche. The problem comes from Summoner.
Summoner is basically a better Red Mage in every respect. It's more mobile, it does way more personal dps and even its offensive utility is stronger (Devotion also affects casters and melee together, for a final salt rub in the wound). While Summoner cannot raise more than once a minute, once a minute is normally all you need in the current most relevant content, Ultimate (die more than this and it's over). And this is a problem.
Jobs usually fall in a utility VS selfish dps spectrum. You either bring the aforementioned tools to deal with mechanics/buff your party members or you hit hard to kill things fast. And it's not acceptable (imho) that a job does considerably more damage than Red Mage while also stealing the niche of its utility. You can play with Red Mage over Summoner, sure. You can also play at min ilv for whatever reason.
When we're talking actually hard content, do you want to risk a wipe on Golden Bahamut because you lacked 100 dps to beat the enrage? On a 20 minute fight?
No, you don't. So you'd prefer a Summoner always.
Repeat this logic for every fight over different levels of skill.
The top 1% of the playerbase has this reasoning for ultimate. The top 10% for O4S. The top 15% for O3S and so on.

It's not just the playerbase and its perception that a job is bad that's the problem.
It's that, statistically, for some level of execution, accounting for the inherent variability of human error and inherent to the dps rotation, Summoner is strictly better than Red Mage except for some contrived example where everyone dies and Red Mage does 3 rezzes in a row and saves the day (you're just gonna wipe if this happens 99% of the time though).


(Let me add that the "b-but perfect balance is impossible!" talk is nonsense. Of course it is. But that's why we rebalance every patch, to try and nudge closer to that optimal balance that still offers gameplay diversity. We cannot resign to a "this can't be done" or the game just stalls and these imbalances spiral out of control with time. There's a myriad examples of bad balancing in games and how it alienates part of the playerbase, strangles gameplay diversity and overall makes for a bad game experience. I absolutely love this game, and I really wish for it to keep going strong as it has for the 5 years I've spent in it, so if a job is suffering, I do like to chime in if I've something useful to say. And for the record, I understand Black Mage is absolute trash right now, but that doesn't mean Red Mage doesn't have problems too- they have every right to voice their worries, and since we, as Black Mages, are feeling them all too much lately, we should join them so they too are heard)

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I'll be blunt. BLM has no value. It's entirely worthless right now because everything it does, SMN does it better. If SE refuses to give BLM the substantial buff it needs without nerfing SMN, it won't matter a hoot what happens to RDM relative to the caster meta. On the other hand, if they do make proper adjustments, any moderate increase to RDM's DPS won't impact BLM whatsoever.

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I still think this logic is only half true at best. It depends entirely on what they do, yes, but if they do make BLM insanely high and still raise RDM damage, people are still going to be clamoring for RDM buffs because the gap is "too big." I can see the logic relative to bard, I suppose.

People that comment that Red Mage damage is fine where it is at clearly do not play it. And yes blm is far worst shape however and i do play both. (Have mained blm for 4 years)
All i am saying is Red should get a minor dmg buff perhaps with the cost of increasing mp to raise, not sure

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Snip.

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Utility and adding damage are not mutually exclusive concepts by any means, even if you throw a dictionary at the word. Also see context of this discussion thread and refer to Galvuu’s long and informative response.

Not sure what the bit about BRD is supposed to mean. The argument some of us are making is that RDM should not deal less total damage than BRD since RDM’s brand of utility isn’t nearly as potent or as universally desirable as what BRD brings.

Out of curiosity, how much more dps equals utility on the scale of game balance? Should red mages do more damage than a bard? Or should the two jobs be equivalent in damage output?

There is no doubt that the ability to quickly raise a dead character is powerful. While, I understand this is an ability which is used less as the red mage progresses into harder content, it is highly useful in the content most players play. That utility cannot just be dismissed with a wave of a hand and clever words. Yet, bards do a great variety of benefits to the table, overall.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

...it is highly useful in the content most players play. That utility cannot just be dismissed with a wave of a hand and clever words.

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On this point I respectfully disagree.

It is only with harder content that RDM rez utility is truly valued, and progressively less so as players become more proficient and better equipped.

In content most players arguably spend the most time playing, the ability to instacast rez on demand is so niche as to be easily dismissed. If we’re talking the occasional resurrection of a lag death or mechanics failure, even that of the healer, that’s nothing a SMN can’t take care of while still performing the primary DPS function at a much higher level.