Tanks Letting DPS Die

Sorry but if you pull aggro from him it's your fault. You might not like it but that's the order of things. Grabbing aggro is a pain for your entire party not just you. You could very well wait for the tank to build enmity before starting your rotation.
The fact that you can't dps fully is however on the tank. And if they can they should change how they play to allow you to go all out.

Somehow because the content is so easy people seem to forget this. If the mobs one shot you maybe you'd get it then. Loosing a few gcds or messing up your rotation is preferable to dying, costing the healer raise MP, heal MP, and dps gcds. Not to mention the tank running around, positionals, or the potential cleaving of other playersetc.. etc.. Pulling aggro is always on the dps.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Sorry but if you pull aggro from him it's your fault. Pulling aggro is always on the dps.

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I have watched DRK's spam the SE combo. I have watched PLD's spam Riot Blade. I have been in dungeons were I couldn't even heal the tank without pulling threat. The tank going dps stance to boost their own dps while hamstringing real dps because they don't want to manage threat properly. DPS can use their tools when tanks are doing their best but otherwise the tank is being selfish if they don't want to stance dance.

So no it isn't always on the dps.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I have watched DRK's spam the SE combo. I have watched PLD's spam Riot Blade. I have been in dungeons were I couldn't even heal the tank without pulling threat. The tank going dps stance to boost their own dps while hamstringing real dps because they don't want to manage threat properly. DPS can use their tools when tanks are doing their best but otherwise the tank is being selfish if they don't want to stance dance.

So no it isn't always on the dps.

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However it is the DPS and healers job to go to tank if they get enmity not run around like a chicken with their heads cut off -.-. Now if your bringing them to tank and tank doesn't grab them that is just poor tanking. If regen effects are active while pulling they will agro healer right away. Tanks , healers, and dps should remove effect before pull. So in a way it's everyone's fault -.- I tank / heal / DPS as needed and from my experience it's just poor judgement and play style. Remember not everyone has the same type of experience and many people think they know their jobs and what to do..

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I have watched DRK's spam the SE combo. I have watched PLD's spam Riot Blade. I have been in dungeons were I couldn't even heal the tank without pulling threat. The tank going dps stance to boost their own dps while hamstringing real dps because they don't want to manage threat properly. DPS can use their tools when tanks are doing their best but otherwise the tank is being selfish if they don't want to stance dance.

So no it isn't always on the dps.

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If i tank a boss as a DRK i'll use my hate combo once at the start and thats usualy enough if the dps' are using diversion and so on properly and that means i'll leave tankstance and if everyone is doing their job properly i don't have to go back into tankstance again. If a dps is ripping hate of me in such a situation he is either completly overgeared compared to me, what results in me using more often the hate combo, or he is just a lazy joker who doesn't use his skills properly. I can understand that tanks let these jokers bite the dust because they are incredible annoying. I also understand tanks who get pissed off if someone always has to pull more mobs, except to maintain buffs etc.

What i don't understand are these tanks where the dps is doing nothing wrong and they still are not able to hold hate of 3 mobs and don't even care to keep hate.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

What i don't understand are these tanks where the dps is doing nothing wrong and they still are not able to hold hate of 3 mobs and don't even care to keep hate.

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This is my point exactly to the person above who I quoted. I see two people responded to me but you had the most relevance to what I was rebuking. The person who said "Pulling aggro is always on the dps." I was just illustrating that DPS can use diversion and Lucid Dream(casters) but still gain threat from a tank. The dps shouldn't have to sacrifice their dps to appease a tank who doesn't want to do their job properly. Some tanks don't have to look at tank stance. But not all tanks are equal (same goes for DPS and healers).

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

the tank is being selfish if they don't want to stance dance.
So no it isn't always on the dps.

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I never said the tank was doing their job right. Or that they weren't being selfish. I'm saying it's your responsibility not to pull aggro as a DPS regardless of the tank you have. If you pull, it's always on you as a dps. You can cry all you want about how bad your tank is. The fact is YOU are the one pulling aggro and all that it entails. And -again- if this game were a bit harder and the mobs killed you consistently, YOU would be the dps contributing the least compared to the dps properly managing their aggro. Which again means that YOU fail at your role which is to contribute as much DPS as you can in that group setting. (as opposed to how much you can in a striking dummy setting)

Don't get me wrong. If your tank is capping your dps because they aren't building proper enmity. By all means call them out. But don't blame them for your mismanagement of aggro. (I get it, it's frustrating, especially if the tank is being a douche. Still your fault though).

I also addressed the healer aggro point earlier in my initial post FYI

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Originally Posted by EaMett

I never said the tank was doing their job right. Or that they weren't being selfish. I'm saying it's your responsibility not to pull aggro as a DPS regardless of the tank you have. If you pull, it's always on you as a dps. You can cry all you want about how bad your tank is. The fact is YOU are the one pulling aggro and all that it entails. And -again- if this game were a bit harder and the mobs killed you consistently, YOU would be the dps contributing the least compared to the dps properly managing their aggro. Which again means that YOU fail at your role which is to contribute as much DPS as you can in that group setting. (as opposed to how much you can in a striking dummy setting)

Don't get me wrong. If your tank is capping your dps because they aren't building proper enmity. By all means call them out. But don't blame them for your mismanagement of aggro. (I get it, it's frustrating, especially if the tank is being a douche. Still your fault though).

I also addressed the healer aggro point earlier in my initial post FYI

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That said, it's a very subjective situation. The DPS will allways consider it's the tank fault of not enough threat combo if he pulls out, and the TANK will allways consider it's the DPS fault of not managing enmity with side tools.

What's the case with an undergeared tank forcing DPS stance and DPS combo with unsufficient threat ? Should his DPS be a priority over more geared DPS that pulls more threat than he can sustain with only damaging abilities ?

A BLM that focus one target with Fire IV all the day down during multiple target pulls, and not aoeing while the other DPS and the tank/heal are, is the tank responsible of focusing a sole target with 100% of his DPS instead of spreading it as the tank spread his threat ?


Sadly, things are subjective to one's point of view and consideration of his own pleasure over everyone else's.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

I'm saying it's your responsibility not to pull aggro as a DPS regardless of the tank you have.

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Yeah you are like talking to a brick wall. It is a team based game and it is up to both roles to fulfill their obligations. I have been an undergeared tank and I tell people to please watch aggro. But I stay in tank stance and do what I need to do. I switch to dps when it is appropriate. It is ludicrous to say "don't dps and just stand there twiddling your thumbs to make sure you don't get aggro because I don't want to switch stances or do my enmity combo". That's essentially what you're saying if the DPS have already used Diversion and Lucid Dream (if applicable).

If you were one shot by mobs because you pulled aggro there would be a lot more vote kicks/drops. It wouldn't change behavior of the DPS, they would get a tank who knew better.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

That said, it's a very subjective situation. The DPS will allways consider it's the tank fault of not enough threat combo if he pulls out, and the TANK will allways consider it's the DPS fault of not managing enmity with side tools.

What's the case with an undergeared tank forcing DPS stance and DPS combo with unsufficient threat ? Should his DPS be a priority over more geared DPS that pulls more threat than he can sustain with only damaging abilities ?

A BLM that focus one target with Fire IV all the day down during multiple target pulls, and not aoeing while the other DPS and the tank/heal are, is the tank responsible of focusing a sole target with 100% of his DPS instead of spreading it as the tank spread his threat ?


Sadly, things are subjective to one's point of view and consideration of his own pleasure over everyone else's.

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It isn't subjective at all really, well from the points you brought up anyway.

If a tank is clearly undegeared especially when the dps over gear him by a considerable amount of Ilevel. The tank should take that into consideration when establishing hate and switching into DPS stance. The DPS should also be using their aggro dump CDs and if they are and the tanks lose hate , it's objectively the tanks fault.

A BLM that single targets in a multiple mob pull, it's the BLMs fault if they pull hate. No question. Like, wtf are you doing? fire 2? flare? thunder 4? foul? learn your damn class. This goes for any DPS class used by an idiot who thinks trying to attack 1 enemy out of the 10 that are beating on the tank when they have AOE is a good idea.

Nothing subjective here, mate.

I think the most likely case for me losing aggro in current content is the moss walls in temple of the fist.

It takes a really unpleasant position to get the mobs as close as possible, and enemies that spawn don't get added to my threat list, so there can be mosslings running around I can't see, because the camera is shoved up my character's backside and there's 10 people blocking my view (as well as whatever ground targeted barrier/heal mechanic I have on me).

If I lose a mob, I will do everything in my power to bring it back. Because I'm not picking a tank for its personal DPS, I should be focused first and foremost on tanking. The only time I've let a DPS die is when they specifically ran ahead before a battle is finished and aggro'd a group of enemies (specifically, the second honey wall in the saint's arbotoreum) when I said "Do not pull that until the current group is dead". Could I have handled that? Dunno, wasn't feeling confident. So if a DPS thinks they know better, they can tank it.

DPS single targeting during an AoE pull is understandably DPS fault. DPS prepulling mobs is understandably DPS fault. DPS spike damage 1.5 seconds into a pull is understandably DPS fault.

But... seriously? You have one job. Tank Stance, Shield Lobe, Flash, Enmity Combo. SE has buffed tank's enmity generation to the moon. You simply fail as a tank, if any DPS can rip hate from you. Where is your pride as tank?!

I never have trouble holding aggro as a tank main, but I also expect my dps to use aggro tools to help out. For example, I can open any exr dungeon boss fight in dps stance on any tank (except war, which I'll just equilibrium and immediately go into deliverance on) if I have a nin in my party. But I've had more than a few nin pugs who refuse to shadewalker/smokescreen no matter how many times I ask, and there's really no reason for that. Help me help you.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

That said, it's a very subjective situation. The DPS will allways consider it's the tank fault of not enough threat combo [...]

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

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Wow maybe I'm speaking Chinese. Lets give this another shot.
If your tank is in dps stance and capping your DPS because of emnity. OF COURSE he should switch to tank stance/rotation. OF COURSE he should put more effort into building aggro. All this goes without saying.
But if you grab aggro it's on you. There's nothing subjective about that. It's YOUR enmity, it's YOUR management or failure to do so. So yes if your tank is in dps stance building no aggro then you should "just stand there twiddling your fingers". There's -nothing- ludicrous about that. What is ludicrous in your example is that the tank would not switch to tank stance or enmity combo despite you telling him he's capping your dps.

And no there would not be a lot more vote kicks if mobs one shot you because there are a fair amount of mmos (and even some ff14 pulls) where grabbing agro -will- get you killed and you don't see that happening. Instead people actually wait for the tank to build some aggro. However, a tank who refuses to build more enmity when he can easily do so and despite capping his group's dps should (and would) get his ass handed to him.

Again, your aggro, your responsibility. The tank's responsibility is not to cap his group's dps. They're two separate things that work together. So yes, grabbing agro is always the DPS' fault even though it often stems from a poor tanking situation. Varying degrees of good intentions/selfishness from the tank are irrelevant, your responsibilities don't change.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Wow maybe I'm speaking Chinese. Lets give this another shot.
If your tank is in dps stance and capping your DPS because of emnity. OF COURSE he should switch to tank stance/rotation. OF COURSE he should put more effort into building aggro. All this goes without saying.
But if you grab aggro it's on you. There's nothing subjective about that. It's YOUR enmity, it's YOUR management or failure to do so. So yes if your tank is in dps stance building no aggro then you should "just stand there twiddling your fingers". There's -nothing- ludicrous about that. What is ludicrous in your example is that the tank would not switch to tank stance or enmity combo despite you telling him he's capping your dps.

And no there would not be a lot more vote kicks if mobs one shot you because there are a fair amount of mmos (and even some ff14 pulls) where grabbing agro -will- get you killed and you don't see that happening. Instead people actually wait for the tank to build some aggro. However, a tank who refuses to build more enmity when he can easily do so and despite capping his group's dps should (and would) get his ass handed to him.

Again, your aggro, your responsibility. The tank's responsibility is not to cap his group's dps. They're two separate things that work together. So yes, grabbing agro is always the DPS' fault even though it often stems from a poor tanking situation. Varying degrees of good intentions/selfishness from the tank are irrelevant, your responsibilities don't change.

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This 100%. YOUR enmity, YOUR management. Let's give some examples to illustrate.

Tank pulls in DPS stance, 10 iLevels below everyone else. Everyone else pulls hate. EVERYONE ELSE PULLED HATE.... Who is responsible for pulling hate? EVERYONE ELSE. Who is responsible for making it impossible for you to DPS or Heal? THE TANK. The TANK SUCKED! But YOU PULLED HATE.

Tank pulls in Tank stance, immediately switches to DPS stance. iLevel equal. DPS doesn't use enmity mitigation, they pull hate. Who's fault? DPS that didn't use enmity reduction, their enmity, their fault. Tank really didn't do anything wrong in this situation. They COULD have stance danced to get hate back, they COULD have used an enmity combo to get hate back; but they didn't generate that hate for the DPS, the DPS did.

Tank pulls in Tank stance, immediately switches to DPS stance. iLevel equal. DPS uses enmity mitigation, they pull hate. Tank doesn't use enmity rotation to get hate back. Who's fault? DPS's fault, YOUR ENMITY, YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. Tank was being greedy AF and limited YOUR DPS because they were more concerned with THEIR DPS.

Tank pulls in Tank stance, stays in tank stance. Does only enmity combos. iLevel equal. Does 40% less damage than they could be doing, the run takes forever. DPS get tired of how long it's taking and pull ahead; they take hate Tank doesn't see it cause they're busy working out what comes after heavy swing or fast blade and wondering if they have enough tenacity to handle 1 more mob. Who's fault? DPS, they pulled hate. The TANK SUCKED! and you pulled hate.....

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It isn't subjective at all really, well from the points you brought up anyway.

If a tank is clearly undegeared especially when the dps over gear him by a considerable amount of Ilevel. The tank should take that into consideration when establishing hate and switching into DPS stance. The DPS should also be using their aggro dump CDs and if they are and the tanks lose hate , it's objectively the tanks fault.

A BLM that single targets in a multiple mob pull, it's the BLMs fault if they pull hate. No question. Like, wtf are you doing? fire 2? flare? thunder 4? foul? learn your damn class. This goes for any DPS class used by an idiot who thinks trying to attack 1 enemy out of the 10 that are beating on the tank when they have AOE is a good idea.

Nothing subjective here, mate.

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Not, it's not really subjective because here everyone is barely knowing what is AOE, ST, and enmity management.

But everytime I cross a player doing thoses errors, and tell him, it's never his fault by his opinion.

That's where the subjectivity lies : Knowing if you did wrong anytime

And that's something you will rarely see in players you cross dungeon with.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Wow maybe I'm speaking Chinese. Lets give this another shot.
But if you grab aggro it's on you. There's nothing subjective about that. It's YOUR enmity, it's YOUR management or failure to do so. So yes if your tank is in dps stance building no aggro then you should "just stand there twiddling your fingers". There's -nothing- ludicrous about that.

Again, your aggro, your responsibility. The tank's responsibility is not to cap his group's dps. They're two separate things that work together. So yes, grabbing agro is always the DPS' fault even though it often stems from a poor tanking situation. Varying degrees of good intentions/selfishness from the tank are irrelevant, your responsibilities don't change.

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I see what you mean. If I used everything else, as you said there's only not attacking that can prevent me from getting hate.

You say you see nothing ludicrous in that. There, I disagree. Not doing anything to focus on my secondary responsibility over my primary (damage) just because the tank fails at HIS primary role (hold hate to be the one getting hit) should not happen. So yes, ripping aggro is caused by my spells, hence my responsibility, AND the tank's failure to his (no failure = not happening).

I know it sounds a bit "git gud" here but it's not really my point. I'm not gonna be rude to such tanks, nor do I votekick ot trashtalk. Hell I won't either judge anything on small mistakes, it's just an inconvenience not a grave offense. But mostly, what I do now, is just going with tanks I know.
Or even sometimes I tank myself, to see the other side of the coin and so I DO know of situations where the DPS make no effort either whatsoever. But if I lose hate I go and get it back.

Going to cover for the DPS here as a tank : The dps loss incured by applying another emnity combo is far outweighted by having the DPS and healer do damage without distraction.

Though I don't expect people use their Lucid Dreaming or Diversion, I do know my limits as a tank and roughly can determine how much I need to be in tank stance before I have gotten a sufficient lead in emnity to switch stance and to my other combos without risking losing the boss.

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Originally Posted by Sakagami

So, is this something you've encountered? What can be done to discourage this kind of behavior? Or, should it just simply be use DF with people you know? Or, maybe I've just been unlucky.

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What can be done to discourage this behaviour? Use diversion. You're as much responsible for enmity as the tank is, everyone has access to enmity reduction now, if you use the tools you're given effectively then you won't take hate even if the tank never uses an aggro combo. High aggro doesn't mean high dps, it just means bad enmity control.

That said, if you're bad at controlling your enmity, the tank should be compensating with their aggro combo rather than letting you die, you're lowering their dps by being bad but letting you die lowers dps far more.

Saw a similar question in the healers board and I want to ask here since it’s relevant to DPS: which scenario would pull the most total DPS as a team? A tank who mostly focuses on dealing damage while the team manage aggro and healing? Or a tank that focus on enmity and defense while the team pumps out DPS? Of course we can have a hybrid but I’m just seeking an extreme of each side (which IMO would be the ideal scenario) since most of us live in a PUG life.

it happens sometimes. and ussually either voke is on cooldown or i have no mana :P so i have to finish my mana combo first so i can turn grit back on then do an aggro combo. sometimes that doesnt make it in time. to the casual observer it might seem that the tank isnt doing shit to save him but maybe he actually is.

Happened to me several times there past days...
Used things like diversion, lucid dream (rdm), even when i leveled up my drg.

On these moment I just want to yell at them cause I did my job to reduce my aggro but yeah, dying sure is a good aggro reset.
I have no problem with tank optimizing their dps but god please. AGGRO FIRST...
If they all think we steal aggro from not using aggro reducer, we won't go in any productive way. It's a 120s CD. We won't stop dpsing... to let them dps while ours does more damages. This is ridiculous.

That's on those moment I regret square putting strengh back on accessories and removing penalty from stance dancing.
I know it's not a good thing for tank's feeling in general but at least it teached them.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Again, your aggro, your responsibility.

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You're not speaking chinese. I understand what you're saying but the responsibility of the dps is to dps while using enmity tools. If these are done properly than it is the tanks fault for not following their responsibility. The DPS is not at fault for using their tools and doing their job properly. That responsibility falls solely on the tank. Enmity generation isn't hard in this game.

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Originally Posted by StragoMagus

Saw a similar question in the healers board and I want to ask here since it’s relevant to DPS: which scenario would pull the most total DPS as a team? A tank who mostly focuses on dealing damage while the team manage aggro and healing? Or a tank that focus on enmity and defense while the team pumps out DPS? Of course we can have a hybrid but I’m just seeking an extreme of each side (which IMO would be the ideal scenario) since most of us live in a PUG life.

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The first scenario doesn't really make sense. Everyone is always focusing on damage-managing aggro as a dps and healer only requires pressing a button, which doesn't reduce dps, whereas the tank having to do more aggro combos than necessary does reduce dps. This is why it's muuuuuuuch more optimal for the dps and healers to help out with aggro, rather than having the tank needlessly turtle in tank stance, spamming aggro combos for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

The first scenario doesn't really make sense. Everyone is always focusing on damage-managing aggro as a dps and healer only requires pressing a button, which doesn't reduce dps, whereas the tank having to do more aggro combos than necessary does reduce dps. This is why it's muuuuuuuch more optimal for the dps and healers to help out with aggro, rather than having the tank needlessly turtle in tank stance, spamming aggro combos for no reason.

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There are several scenarios.

Dungeon packs: You're probably in tank stance anyways just to give the healer more breathing room, and all the AOE skills minus TE include threat modifiers anyways. No issue.
Dungeon bosses: You better at least do one combo in tank stance
Ninja: !@#% it, do whatever you want mang

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

There are several scenarios.

Dungeon packs: You're probably in tank stance anyways just to give the healer more breathing room, and all the AOE skills minus TE include threat modifiers anyways. No issue.
Dungeon bosses: You better at least do one combo in tank stance
Ninja: !@#% it, do whatever you want mang

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Unfortunately the few times I've had to pug a dps for exr, I've mostly gotten ninjas who only single target doton and don't know what shadewalker is :(

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Unfortunately the few times I've had to pug a dps for exr, I've mostly gotten ninjas who only single target doton and don't know what shadewalker is :(

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My heart :(

If the tank loses aggro drag the mob back directly onto the tank. Either they will take back the aggro or they will have to dodge AOE non-stop forcing them to take it anyways. Whatever you do DON'T run around with your head cut off if you steal aggro from the tank.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

[...] I understand what you're saying but the responsibility of the dps is to dps while using enmity tools. [...]

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Correction : the responsibility of the dps is to dps while managing their enmity (aka: not grabbing aggro). Enmity tools are just one way they can do this. Other options include not dpsing, switching targets, handling a mechanic for another player etc.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

[...] Not doing anything to focus on my secondary responsibility over my primary (damage) [...]

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Why is one primary and the other secondary? They're equivalent and go hand in hand. Besides how do either of those supersede you staying alive? Emnity is 100% your responsibility. That's why you don't pull as a dps. That's why you don't HoT as a healer during big pulls (or do so conservatively) and don't overheal.

I think the sticking point for many people is that Aggro management is indeed a group effort. If one team member does poorly it impacts the other players. This, however, does not mean that your tank being shitty gives you a "get out of jail free" card for grabbing aggro. It's still your fault as frustrating as it may be.

Enmity management is everyone's responsibility. Absolute purity of role doesn't exist when every job has tools that allow them to dip their toes into other responsibilities. Some caster DPS have access to raise, some tanks have access to healing, DPS have access to enmity management, healers and tanks have DPS toolkits, and so-on and so-forth. A DPS that does not properly manage their enmity is not using their full toolkit, and anybody that isn't using their full toolkit is not pulling their full weight. Mind you, there are cases where this is a bit unreasonable. Samurai and Monk have high personal DPS and a fairly mediocre enmity management tool in diversion; in this case the tank might have to work a little bit to maintain enmity.

I'm not the kind of person to let a DPS die because of this because I view it as a tad petty and honestly would rather deal with a marginally longer run time than a significantly longer run time, however I can understand the frustration of constantly having to deal with DPS who don't use their utility for whatever reason. Long story short, if a healer that doesn't DPS when able is considered crappy, and a tank that doesn't pop cooldowns to keep themselves alive and only spams enmity combo is considered crappy, then a DPS that doesn't manage their enmity and use their (rather impressive) utility is also crappy.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

That responsibility falls solely on the tank. Enmity generation isn't hard in this game.

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Let me put it another way -- there's no point where the responsibility of tanking falls to you. Rather, your responsibility is to watch Netflix and alternating your best /dance emotes.

So like..... if you have all these mobs, and a mob breaks from the pack because you chose to be a dps tank rather than an enmity holding tank, it's on the dps? even if they are using their enmity reducing procs, it's still dps because they should hold back.
If that's it, I respect your view, if you feel the need to know where I stand on that, well I do not personally agree.

If you further want to read forward hear on what I have to say as input, I think a tank maintaining aggro is better than one that has high dps with mobs flying round the instanced zone. If you can maintain aggro, and stance dance well enough you know when to swap back and re-establish the aggro, you are a tank I will always pair with if given the choice.

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Originally Posted by JockHarley

So like..... if you have all these mobs, and a mob breaks from the pack because you chose to be a dps tank rather than an enmity holding tank, it's on the dps? even if they are using their enmity reducing procs, it's still dps because they should hold back.

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Yes, although admittedly easier said than done sometimes. It is however your fault as a tank that the dps is capped and you should fix that by building more enmity. A DPS holding back = tank's failure.

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Originally Posted by JockHarley

I think a tank maintaining aggro is better than one that has high dps with mobs flying round the instanced zone. If you can maintain aggro, and stance dance well enough you know when to swap back and re-establish the aggro, you are a tank I will always pair with if given the choice.

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We totally agree on this. And this statement is not exclusive of my earlier assessment. A tank in dps stance and/or dps rotation instead of the bit of effort it takes to build more enmity is not (or very rarely) a dps gain compared to a dps role having to sit on a couple GCDs because they're about to pull aggro.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Yes, although admittedly easier said than done sometimes. It is however your fault as a tank that the dps is capped and you should fix that by building more enmity. A DPS holding back = tank's failure.



We totally agree on this. And this statement is not exclusive of my earlier assessment. A tank in dps stance and/or dps rotation instead of the bit of effort it takes to build more enmity is not (or very rarely) a dps gain compared to a dps role having to sit on a couple GCDs because they're about to pull aggro.

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ahhhh I'm totally with you now, thank you for re-clarifying that with me:)

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Correction : the responsibility of the dps is to dps while managing their enmity (aka: not grabbing aggro). Enmity tools are just one way they can do this. Other options include not dpsing, switching targets, handling a mechanic for another player etc.

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Sorry but there is no correcting what I am saying. If the tank does his job properly. DPS should never have to stop dps'ing just to manage their threat. The job of the tank is to maintain control of whatever enemy is in front of him.

So here is a question for you. This morning in Halatali HM I saw a Tank who would let enemies go attack the healer as he never tagged them. Should I do one of the following:
A. Stay focus target on the tanks target
B. Attack loose target because the healer is dying

Based on your statements I should do A. Because if I choose B I am at fault for grabbing aggro.

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Originally Posted by JockHarley

So like..... if you have all these mobs, and a mob breaks from the pack because you chose to be a dps tank rather than an enmity holding tank, it's on the dps? even if they are using their enmity reducing procs, it's still dps because they should hold back.
If that's it, I respect your view, if you feel the need to know where I stand on that, well I do not personally agree.

If you further want to read forward hear on what I have to say as input, I think a tank maintaining aggro is better than one that has high dps with mobs flying round the instanced zone. If you can maintain aggro, and stance dance well enough you know when to swap back and re-establish the aggro, you are a tank I will always pair with if given the choice.

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I don't expect my dps to hold back gcds, ever. Though I do expect them to use aggro tools to help me do dps as well, it's a group effort. I'll never switch back into tank stance (what a waste of potency), but I will do an aggro combo if I absolutely have to. Usually if it's a dungeon though, the boss is more or less dead by the time I have to think about that.

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Originally Posted by JockHarley

So like..... if you have all these mobs, and a mob breaks from the pack because you chose to be a dps tank rather than an enmity holding tank, it's on the dps?

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As soon as I read this I thought, "Why did only one break away?" Are you using a single target rotation while everyone else is aoe-ing?

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

If the tank does his job properly. DPS should never have to stop dps'ing just to manage their threat.

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We agree on this. The tank's job is to do as much dps while not capping the DPS. Still, a DPS taking aggro off a tank is the DPS' fault. After everything that's been said I don't know what more to add. If you want a pat on the back for taking aggro off your tank (regardless of how bad he is), you aren't getting it from me. That's quite clear.

Also this is completely unrelated to instances where a DPS should grab aggro. I'm only talking about enmity mismanagement.
There are plenty of instances where grabbing aggro is not a mismanagement of enmity. Whether it be a boss or mob that needs to be tanked by a dps, or mobs that need to be kited by dps, or if your tank dies. etc.. etc..

The example you give fits in that. You're -intentionally- taking aggro for a high priority reason (survival of group, which really trumps all else). As an aside, grabbing aggro isn't the only option. The healer or someone else could cc as well.
Anyways, I already addressed the healer edge case.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

As soon as I read this I thought, "Why did only one break away?" Are you using a single target rotation while everyone else is aoe-ing?

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I only ever do solo targeting in mob pulls when my ogcd move is ready to proc (rdm), and will be to the mob the tank is attacking to minimize potential aggro loss as well. Otherwise all I see is red from my AOE. yes, I do also proc diversion and lucid where I can plly to both be useful in pulls and also to keep my dps

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

I don't expect my dps to hold back gcds, ever. Though I do expect them to use aggro tools to help me do dps as well, it's a group effort. I'll never switch back into tank stance (what a waste of potency), but I will do an aggro combo if I absolutely have to. Usually if it's a dungeon though, the boss is more or less dead by the time I have to think about that.

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see, with you monitoring the aggro though and being aware that you might need to swipe up an aggro combo whilst in the tanking stance, that makes you a team player as you are still keeping in mind you may lose aggro.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Not, it's not really subjective because here everyone is barely knowing what is AOE, ST, and enmity management.

But everytime I cross a player doing thoses errors, and tell him, it's never his fault by his opinion.

That's where the subjectivity lies : Knowing if you did wrong anytime

And that's something you will rarely see in players you cross dungeon with.

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what other players think is subjective or not is irrelavant when it comes to how this game is played.

Single target attacking in a large pull is demonstrably far less efficient than using AOE attacks because not only does it take much longer to kill the group of adds, it also puts stress on the tanks and healers as cooldowns are a thing. This is a fact. Their opinion, is irrelevant. If a DPS argues or flat out ignores you after bringing this to their attention, don't even say anything more, just kick them out.

As for enmit management, if your DPS is using their enmity modifiers and the tank still loses aggro for what ever reason. It's objectively the tnks fault.The DPS did their jobs, the tank obviously isn't. Again, personal opinion is irrelevant, because this is how it works in XIV.