THM/BLM MP Crisis/Solutions.

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Originally Posted by Isaveron

Your archers suck if they let THMs get that close to them

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Oh well....

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

Inb4 "you didn't run with 4 archers and a THM to compare," inb4 "you took too long to kill", inb4 "someone somewhere is a noob" and Inb4 "that only happened once".

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Originally Posted by Andrien

No doubt BRD will get Refresh songs, and THM/BLM might get Refresh spell. (maybe)

problem solved.

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We already now BRD will get a Refresh song:

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BRD Mag. 1 - Self AoE - Gradually restores the MP of all party members within range.

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THM already have Refresh in the form of a trait and there are no plans to give BLM a Refresh spell:

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BLM Mag. 1 - Deals lightning damage to target. - Combo: THM Magic 9, Bonus: Lower health yields greater damage.
BLM Mag. 2 - Target AoE - Puts all enemies within range of the target to sleep.
BLM Mag. 3 - Self AoE - Deals fire damage to all enemies within range. Chance to inflict DoT effect.
BLM Mag. 4 - Deals ice damage to target and reduces enmity.

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I'm still trying to figure out what's quoted response about.

THM is a bit overpower atm. Maybe they could do spells cost less mp and do less dmg also. But having more ways to recover mp fast at this moment (later when other classes do more dmg it will be ok i guess) will kill other classes more.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

You said Thm is great for quick battles. My input is that if a boss fight only lasts a few minutes, it's not a boss in my opinion.

Boss fights should be intense long fights, like a half hour or more to be in. While it may be great for a full group of Thms to fight Ifrit for 8 minutes or a little longer is cool and all. It's not really fun for too long.

The problem of Mp in a fight...? I fully don't know yet. I haven't done the moogle fight as a Thm. If I can do that fight without resting too much then, and the fight is generally easy? Meh guess there isn't a boss fight yet.

It's not that difficult to manage hate and mp, as far as I know.

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I have to disagree with your definition of a boss battle. I personally enjoy boss battles that are quicker, brutal and have everyone running around like headless tarus in a panic because oh god everything is exploding we're going to die aaaaaaa~

A boss fight is determine by it's difficulty and, on an emotional level, how much the player panics and feels like the foe before him is massive. Wether the fight takes 10 minutes or 60 matters little. Specially, I feel like if you design a boss battle to be a long drawn out fight it's actually worse since the boss won't be capable of throwing terribly massive spike damage and absurdly crippling statuses (that is, if the fight is designed to be winnable at any rate).

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Originally Posted by Skies

I have to disagree with your definition of a boss battle. I personally enjoy boss battles that are quicker, brutal and have everyone running around like headless tarus in a panic because oh god everything is exploding we're going to die aaaaaaa~

A boss fight is determine by it's difficulty and, on an emotional level, how much the player panics and feels like the foe before him is massive. Wether the fight takes 10 minutes or 60 matters little. Specially, I feel like if you design a boss battle to be a long drawn out fight it's actually worse since the boss won't be capable of throwing terribly massive spike damage and absurdly crippling statuses (that is, if the fight is designed to be winnable at any rate).

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Kirin used to take a while about an hour or more till level cap rise. if you didn't have shadows up, and kiting you'd be dead in one or 2 hits. His Astral flow after 50% was a one shotter to some classes.

He is actually one of the best monsters in my opinion. A long interesting fight, you couldn't just stand there. Had to stay on your toes and makes sure you have a kill party for the small version sky gods. He was only a 15 minute Trigger pop, just need the key items to pop him.

10 minute boss fights or anything less? What content will last under that, unless the items is extremely worth it, which this game does not have at the moment.

THM: ranged, burst dmg
DD (excluding arc): DPS

the end

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Kirin used to take a while about an hour or more till level cap rise. if you didn't have shadows up, and kiting you'd be dead in one or 2 hits. His Astral flow after 50% was a one shotter to some classes.

He is actually one of the best monsters in my opinion. A long interesting fight, you couldn't just stand there. Had to stay on your toes and makes sure you have a kill party for the small version sky gods. He was only a 15 minute Trigger pop, just need the key items to pop him.

10 minute boss fights or anything less? What content will last under that, unless the items is extremely worth it, which this game does not have at the moment.

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Zerg, good bye kirin in 1 min lol. Kirin was a long fight long long time ago. On 2008/2009 at least a kite fight long 30-40 min, of running xD.

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Originally Posted by Isaveron

Your archers suck if they let THMs get that close to them

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Says the player who post with only a level 1 MRD, who has absolutely no evedence to support that they have even the slightest clue about THMs or ARCs, much less played either.

I'm sure there must be something I'm missing...But surely reducing MP cost but reducing damage of spells would solve a lot of the problem, seeing as everyone seems to be complaining about doing immense damage but having to wait around for MP too much, doing that should help balance damage dealt and waiting time. o.o

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Originally Posted by Anon

Hello before I can no longer post I'd like to talk about fixing my favorite class thaumaturge. Currently MP is huge problem or rather the lack of MP management tools.

"our four keywords—fun, live, reboot, and rebuild"

Let me be the first to inform you that standing around waiting for mp to recover is NOT fun. While I understand that the ability Convert is incoming next patch I strongly believe that it alone will not suffice. As of right now I have 2356 HP and 3408 MP using convert would only grant me 2/3 of my mp pool at the cost of all my hp which is only about 2 extra combos before I'm back to siting around doing nothing. The following quote is disheartening as the it seems the devs don't seem get it.



While yes they have to build TP the time it takes to build tp IS NOT EQUAL to the time it takes to recover mp. It takes way longer to regain mp than it does to gain enough tp for a combo. Aside from that the TP building player never has to stop, be bored, and/or lose immersion like the MP building player does. I believe using just ONE of the following possible fixes in addition to convert would alleviate the issue.

Magic Combo: A game mechanic that allows for the second spell in a combo to be cast with a 10% MP reduction in cost and the third with a 20% MP reduction in cost. (would allow for better mp management by stacking magic accuracy as you wont start a combo if your spell is resisted.)

Sanguine Delight: Critical spell strikes grant a percentage of the damage caused as MP. Just combine Enhanced Parsimony's effect with Parsimony as it's class exclusive to make space for this trait. (this allows for better mp management through stacking magic crit rate, excruciate, and luck.)

Resonance: Increases range of next cast and reduces MP cost to 0 or half. (it's a niche spell that would see more use this way and would work as a cross class-able Chainspell replacement)

MP Materia: Existing high tier materia needs to be bumped up from around 30 to about 100.

I would really appreciate a dev response on this and also on an unrelated note I believe it should cost 8 totems for an Ifrit weapon and 12 nuts for a Moogle weapon. (seriously 20? what were they thinking....)


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Exactly how I feel about the moogle fight. And playing conjurer is completely opposite!!!! it's awesome; going all out nuking during phase one, healing during phase 2, and then back to nuking during the end of phase 2. never out of mp, never bored through all that!

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during moogle when im con i usually never go down below 50%, thm, forget it,lol

Yeah.... 15k damage difference between THM and ARC. THMs Combos are so over powered and broken. And if you disagree, YOU OBVIOUSLY are playing the class wrong. I mean, ARC obviously now will have 50% of their MP just to use Bloodletter now by SE's logic.

Please, that picture doesn't prove anything. You had two THMs. High parse damage tends to show someone who does NO assisting, NO asset to the fight besides dealing damage. I'd rather have a non-assisting archer, which will make the fight go faster, than a parse whoring THM who thinks going above 50k is anything to post on these forums about. Do that with 3 other ARC and I'll be impressed.

I agree, MP is a huge problem now..I can hardly solo anything anymore, and if I'm with a group, I do that same thing often..stand in a corner trying to recover mp >.> If I could put cnj's blissful mind on my thm, it'd probably help. But I can't because "you can't equip abilities from other classes" >.<

Soooo yeah, the thm's own abilities and one or two from other classes that I was *somehow* able to equip don't help..

Would love it if they made the 2 mp regaining abilities from conj DoW useable and not just con, would probably be an easy adjustment and fix the issue somewhat at least.

thm is good as it is now, add in a convert and the issue is over. thm has the highest spike dmg of all classes w/o question. You are limited by MP if you eliminate the MP management as others have said THM > everything like it was pre 1.18 where THM was the main tank main healer and main DPS all at the same time.

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Originally Posted by tachikoma

thm is good as it is now, add in a convert and the issue is over. thm has the highest spike dmg of all classes w/o question. You are limited by MP if you eliminate the MP management as others have said THM > everything like it was pre 1.18 where THM was the main tank main healer and main DPS all at the same time.

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except for THM will not be main tank and main healer so not a real good comparison.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Ifrit weapon's additional fire damage isnt horrible on ifrit :)

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Fire spells HEAL ifrit.

The MP is fine the way it is. Just like when cure first costed more MP. People just have to adapt and learn how to manage MP to be more efficient.

I really don't understand the problem. I have 50 THM on my other character and I really dont have MP problems. I mean yea if I go all out and try to nuke like crazy then yea I run out quick lol. But I usually just play it like a blm I toss out a few nukes to get a combo and wait (not forever like 20 seconds or so) see what my enmity is at, if its safe, nuke some more. Not trying to say I'm super awesome or anything lol. Just saying its not hard to manage your mp. Just dont go all nuke happy lol.

I really dont want them to lower the mp cost of spells though cause then they will have to lower the damage. I'm just waiting to see how 1.21 goes and maybe it will fix the problem people are having with mp consumption.

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/4...1228123339.jpg

All DPS are ARCs.

This isn't even the most DPS I've pushed with Arc, or seen pushed with ARC. I've seen it topped off at about 75 DPS.

On a mediocre run with THM I managed to pull off about 55 DPS, and on a bad run where My bind resisted on Whiskerwall, And I got Eagle Eye Shot from Woolwary, I pulled about 40 DPS.

In the optimal conditions, I'm positive THM Could almost stand toe-toe with ARC. I've found my biggest issue is the most of my dmg can come from P1, However if you have hate on everything come entering P2, You are going to get your ass mercilessly pounded.

I even thought this through- Isn't going all out and getting a threat wipe the best option?

In most cases, it might be, however if Whiskerwall decides to stick on me and avoid every shadowbind and blizara bind and stays on me even after sanguine right, the entire strategy becames moot.

If you are doing more than 60k on moogle, either all the other DPS are trash and don't know how to use bind, or you are taking too long to kill them. I've hit more than 80k on moogle when the other DPS were completely garbage and it took us almost the full 30 minutes to kill because the king or whm spammed heals. I don't see why people boast "dude, i did 75k on moogle fight" or "dude, i did more than 20k on ifrit". Just shows how bad your group is imo.

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Originally Posted by ApplePie

Do that with 3 other ARC and I'll be impressed.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

Inb4 "you didn't run with 4 archers and a THM to compare," inb4 "you took too long to kill", inb4 "someone somewhere is a noob" and Inb4 "that only happened once".

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Which one is next?

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Originally Posted by ApplePie

If you are doing more than 60k on moogle, either all the other DPS are trash and don't know how to use bind, or you are taking too long to kill them. I've hit more than 80k on moogle when the other DPS were completely garbage and it took us almost the full 30 minutes to kill because the king or whm spammed heals. I don't see why people boast "dude, i did 75k on moogle fight" or "dude, i did more than 20k on ifrit". Just shows how bad your group is imo.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

Inb4 "you didn't run with 4 archers and a THM to compare," inb4 "you took too long to kill", inb4 "someone somewhere is a noob" and Inb4 "that only happened once".

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Only 1 more

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

The MP is fine the way it is. Just like when cure first costed more MP. People just have to adapt and learn how to manage MP to be more efficient.

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Adapting to bad game design decisions does not make it "ok". They fixed Cure by making its absurdly high MP cost proportional with the amount you healed.

Or did you forget about when leveling our classes was based off of a chance percentage of hitting with your weapons/spells?

There's a huge debate going on right now about whether or not THM's MP management mechanic is balanced correctly. Seems to be split right down the middle. Probably a "lrn2play" issue, but whenever I have elitists telling me to "lrn2play" when a bad game design decision is made, it usually means "lrn2dealwithiteventhoughitsuckstodoso".

I've been playing THM a bit more lately leveling it up a little solo and with a lowman PT with some friends. I think it's quite balanced in that environment which is when we'll be using THM. I can completely obliterate enemies but it comes at either the risk of me taking hate and dying, or running out my MP and being unable to do crap for a while, and if i get hate AND I'm out of MP there's nothing I can do until someone gets it off me.

Generally in high end events and large party battles we're going to be wanting to use BLM instead of THM, and having Convert IMO should allow you to run a lot longer before your MP is gone. In these situations the hate risk factor in parties is not as prominent as you typically have to give your tank a head start which, from my experience, is more than enough to cement hate an entire fight as long as you don't go overboard. With hate no longer an issue, you can push your MP more which will be alleviated by Convert.

I guess my point is, unfortunately the game currently is designed with Jobs in mind but we don't have them yet.

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Originally Posted by ApplePie

Yeah.... 15k damage difference between THM and ARC. THMs Combos are so over powered and broken. And if you disagree, YOU OBVIOUSLY are playing the class wrong. I mean, ARC obviously now will have 50% of their MP just to use Bloodletter now by SE's logic.

Please, that picture doesn't prove anything. You had two THMs. High parse damage tends to show someone who does NO assisting, NO asset to the fight besides dealing damage. I'd rather have a non-assisting archer, which will make the fight go faster, than a parse whoring THM who thinks going above 50k is anything to post on these forums about. Do that with 3 other ARC and I'll be impressed.

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I do like how you broke down the whole party strategy out of 1 single parse results... Assuming he is just standing there going oom and doing nothing else to contribute is laughable. Your fellow LS mates who have run parties with vex and me have even pointed out how well vex does at his class.

There is more then one way to play your class effectively.

One major problem is that why spells scale per lvl so does yer mp cost and the fact that you are limited too the amount of spells u can cast. You never get ahead in the MP dept giving you those few extra nukes and your mp regen is awful in comparison too tp gains of melee and guess what your nukes are resisted alot more than melee attacks derp. and they do not do comparable dmg to bosses compared to melee dmg. nukes do great dmg to mobs below or 3ish lvls above you but once that gap is passed you are resisted greatly even w/ superior gear.
I've soloed my last 7 lvls on thm and found the first few to be rather easy and arguably better than exp pts to gain. But as ive gained lvls it has become harder to solo mobs my same lvl or few lvls higher i get resisted alot more now my spells cost more and my mp regen is crap. I use feather foot and pars. everytime its available w/ thundara combo. But here yields another problem THM cant combo if its spells are resisted at all. This rule doesnt apply to melee so wtf? wheres the sense in that. i can whip out combos endlessly on LNC for considerably way more dmg during boss fights than thm and never have to worry about my TP gain etc and i even have a huge mp pool to curemyself if need be. Totally unbalanced between thm and everyother class. And wtf is w/ Sang Rite it works better on off classes and only finds use during Boss AOE attacks most often.

As it stands a well geared THM cannot match the overall damage a well geared ARC does in Moogle fight. (This assuming both are good players as well.) However! An ARC can not hope to match the amount of damage a THM can bring to the table in the process of dumping almost 4K MP on one target. (In the same time frame.) BLM will further widen this gap. Personally do I enjoy standing around in Moogle? No. But I think BRD + Convert will alleviate the issues i currently have.

So yeah, an ARC can deal 2x the damage a THM can in a moogle fight, but the burst is what we are there for. I have gotten to the point where I now only run out of MP on the third moogle. With some more gear tweaking I hope to change that to the 4th (maybe 5th but i am probably dreaming). This is mainly due to the fact that I increased my damage output by a lot, and therefore needed less spells before each one went down. With Convert and BRD Refresh, I doubt I will be doing much standing around as BLM.

Oh and well timed uses of Sanquine Rite + Featherfoot, and Crits on Parsimonied casts make a world of difference.

(Sometimes I run into an AoE on purpose with Sanquine Rite up, jsut so I can get a chunk of MP then Necrogenesis + Second Wind my HP back to full. Just make sure you tell your CNJs not to waste MP on healing you in that situation and it makes it fairly efficient way to stay in the fight.)

The OP is correct

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Originally Posted by Anon

Let me be the first to inform you that standing around waiting for mp to recover is NOT fun.

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It isn't fun. They really missed by not having +Hmp (Healing MP) gear bonuses or some mechanism for THM to recover MP. Taking away Siphon MP and Tranquility and not replacing it with anything other than Parsimony and Sanguine Rite was ill advised.

Yes, we must deal with it as it is, but it's still not fun standing still waiting for MP to replenish.

They could cut MP costs in half but they would have to also cut damage done in half. THM has the highest DPS potential currently, which should be limited by MP and threat.

If you did the 50% MP/Damage cut to allow THM to cast more spells, this means there is more error of getting a "terrible BLM". As you must be doing more actions to receive the same results. This means I am currently in favor of how its set up now, as its more fun to play with "big risk big reward" scenario where you may have to sit around a bit, instead of smashing the "1" key over and over again.


Also Meele have huge CD"s on their combos, so they aren't -just- limited by TP so comparing TP and MP directly is a pretty fail comparison since there are more aspects involved than just that.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

Oh well....

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Yeah, but that's to be expected from him lol. MP conservation will no doubt be better with convert, but a lot of mages now just doesn't seem to really try to use MP efficiently to the best of their ability, some still have the mind set they need to blow through all of their MP as fast as possible as the battle begins.

When a thm can push out 2-3 times as much damage as every other dd class it needs a balance check and that is limited mp ifrit is absolutely raped by thms can only imagine if i had convert and a bard for ballad

I think that mages should be able to chain spells with a reduction in mp cost, my logic here is that mages are already glass cannons to begin with, so it's kind of the usual dilemma: Do you nuke for thousands of dmg, and risk death? or do you toss fewer nukes for the sake of hate control? As it is now, Thm doesen't have much staying power in a long fight, you're effectively useless after about five minutes if you're lucky.

In any fight against anything with high defense thm and blm is going to provide the most dps with the current status formulas we have now if you think thm can only last 5 min with high dps means your doing it wrong

Against low defense fights like moogle thm struggles in a pure dps role but shows it's strength in aoe bind

Generally people try to post to be constructive or helpful, unless they are trolling.

Our THM generally nuke down whisker and ruffle during pre-memento phase. Post-memento they focus mostly on CC, keeping heavy on as many as possible and binding as many as possible. They still nuke when they can to help finish off the current kill target, but they by no means just spam till they are oom then stand there.

Flaming people and trolling posts should not be tolerated on the official forums. Just because you -think- you are gods gift to the gaming world, does not in fact make you gods gift to the gaming world. Please keep negative comments to yourself...

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Originally Posted by Meatdawg

I do like how you broke down the whole party strategy out of 1 single parse results... Assuming he is just standing there going oom and doing nothing else to contribute is laughable. Your fellow LS mates who have run parties with vex and me have even pointed out how well vex does at his class.

There is more then one way to play your class effectively.

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My LS mates have told me how Vex plays. Sorry that I'm right.

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Originally Posted by TehDon

Generally people try to post to be constructive or helpful, unless they are trolling.

Our THM generally nuke down whisker and ruffle during pre-memento phase. Post-memento they focus mostly on CC, keeping heavy on as many as possible and binding as many as possible. They still nuke when they can to help finish off the current kill target, but they by no means just spam till they are oom then stand there.

Flaming people and trolling posts should not be tolerated on the official forums. Just because you -think- you are gods gift to the gaming world, does not in fact make you gods gift to the gaming world. Please keep negative comments to yourself...

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How do you deal more than 50k damage from just "nuking when possible".... It is just as much as a troll to whiteknight defend your own linkshell for the sake of defending them.

Again, I've done this fight. I've seen mages who do 50k damage. They don't "CC," period. They just spam nuke. They don't "assist," period. They just spam nuke. People who just focus on parse hopefully will be the first ones banned. Posting pictures of USING A 3RD PARTY CLIENT not getting banned is something amazing.

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

Also Meele have huge CD"s on their combos, so they aren't -just- limited by TP so comparing TP and MP directly is a pretty fail comparison since there are more aspects involved than just that.

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Did you forget spells have cool downs too effectively giving the combos a cool down? Thundaga feels like it takes an eternity to recharge and we have to wait even longer for parsimony to be up because it's more efficient that way as others have pointed out and you can't afford to be inefficient. Also if thundaras' stun goes off the cool down lasts longer.

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Originally Posted by Anon

Did you forget spells have cool downs too effectively giving the combos a cool down?

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Thundaga - I find it useless for the time it takes to cast is isn't worth it for the amount of mana and damage it takes. Use more thunders.

In a party you'll be killing shit so fast it doesn't even matter.

During a leve you'll be killing shit so fast that you won't be using thundaga anyways since you'll be sparing your mana to get it done for the sweet exp boost for completion.

In an ifrit battle that stun proc isn't going to happen. While thundara is cooling down use stone/thunder hoping the magic debuff procs so you can end up getting a free thundara combo w/o being capable of being partially resisted.

mana management - takes 2 minutes at most if you empty your mana gauge to get all that mana back. To me this isn't an issue anymore and with bard refresh and convert coming along in a month this shouldn't be an issue anymore unless convert has a nice fat 20 minute CD.
Stand still better.

The point of mention thundaga was to prove to that person that a 3rd tier combo for mages has a cool down on combos exactly like a TP user so it is directly comparable.

Well during those two minutes I watch 1 -3 moogles die while itching to get in to the fight; not fun. BTW it takes longer to regen MP in a REAL fight; the hate doesn't instantly drop like when Ifrit jumps to dash and chameleon doesn't make a noticeable difference unlike shroud of saints.

Edit: It's possible convert could potentially have a 15 min cool down like the monks Hundred Fists and a bards Ballad of the Magi could potentially only restore 3mp per tick like our current Auto-Regen.

Crap you're right about that magi song it could be as useless as auto refresh is now I forget that SE knows how to screw some things over like that.