Endgame Content, Competitive Atmosphere

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Originally Posted by Splice

I wasnt aware you were the authority on what makes things fun and challenging to specific people.

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Yeah, loading the claim bot and afking was skill~.

lol, anytime a thread about hardcore content is started it always turns into "Yea, it really takes skill to bot." It's getting old already.

How about all the casuals that bot DoL and DoH classes? That's more fair than claim botting I guess, right? It's OK for them to bot because they don't have as much time to play as some other people, right?[/sarcasm] I'm not saying that it's only casuals that are botting now, but it's a safe bet to say that many are. And if you ask me, these bots are even worse than claim bots because they affect the entire server (monopolizing), not just the small number of linkshells/players that partake in certain content.

And btw, I don't advocate botting, cheating or exploits. I'm just exposing the irony in some of these ridiculous "bot bot bot" replies that appear every time someone tries to discuss long term plans for content. People are going to bot, cheat and exploit the shit out of anything they can just to get ahead. A large portion of FFXIV's failure was because of them trying to make it as anti-bot as possible.

SE should be making examples of these cheaters by banning them, not avoiding certain types of content in an attempt to negate the need to cheat. Salvage dupe bans were a good example. Those players cheated (most of them at least), knew they were cheating and they got what was coming to them. There were some casualties, sure, but that's also the price you pay for playing with cheaters.

Can we get back to discussing future content now, and drop the f'n "bot bot bot" crap already? kthx

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

lol, anytime a thread about hardcore content is started it always turns into "Yea, it really takes skill to bot." It's getting old already.

How about all the casuals that bot DoL and DoH classes? That's more fair than claim botting I guess, right? It's OK for them to bot because they don't have as much time to play as some other people, right?[/sarcasm] I'm not saying that it's only casuals that are botting now, but it's a safe bet to say that many are. And if you ask me, these bots are even worse than claim bots because they affect the entire server (monopolizing), not just the small number of linkshells/players that partake in certain content.

And btw, I don't advocate botting, cheating or exploits. I'm just exposing the irony in some of these ridiculous "bot bot bot" replies that appear every time someone tries to discuss long term plans for content. People are going to bot, cheat and exploit the shit out of anything they can just to get ahead. A large portion of FFXIV's failure was because of them trying to make it as anti-bot as possible.

SE should be making examples of these cheaters by banning them, not avoiding certain types of content in an attempt to negate the need to cheat. Salvage dupe bans were a good example. Those players cheated (most of them at least), knew they were cheating and they got what was coming to them. There were some casualties, sure, but that's also the price you pay for playing with cheaters.

Can we get back to discussing future content now, and drop the f'n "bot bot bot" crap already? kthx

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Bots that spam craft for you are more harmful than claim bot use on competitive content?

Claim bots become a necessary evil when it becomes impossible to claim an NM without one. Craft bots don't ever become necessary.

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Originally Posted by Vuen

Yeah, loading the claim bot and afking was skill~.

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pretty sure this thread is not about claim bots. There are plenty of threads going over why bots should not limit content. good try though, please come back with a better response than, "omg bot bot bot blah blah blah"

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Bots that spam craft for you are more harmful than claim bot use on competitive content?

Claim bots become a necessary evil when it becomes impossible to claim an NM without one. Craft bots don't ever become necessary.

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Personally, yes, I think crafting bots are worse because the affect the entire server equally. More crafters at lv50 means less room for legit crafters to make a profit. The same goes for DoL. And it's likely that the legit crafters, miners, fishers and botanists got to 50 way after the bots did, which means even less of a chance for them to squeeze into the market and find a nice niche.

You're missing my point, though. No bots should be acceptable, period. I just find it funny that many don't care about the crafting/harvesting bots but completely rage at the notion of claim bots. If that's not the definition of irony, I don't know what is. People say one thing but mean another.

Hell, if they can make a "enter-spam-friendly" crafting system (very, very easy for anyone to write their own bot, or just afk turbo controller), then they sure as hell can make competitive endgame content. A bot is a bot is a bot, no matter which way you slice it. They should be dealt with by force, not evasive tactics because that's what got us in the situation we're in right now.

Good design takes away the need to bot. Asian developers haven't understood this since the beginning. When you have repetitive tasks that need to be done over and over it's just begging to be botted. There's no skill involved in spamming standard, no skill hitting X 5 millions times, and no skill grinding out 5000 gathers for an achievement.

The economy is shit because there are no limits in place for any type of gear. No rare craftable drops aside from the NM's first introduced. About the only thing worth gil right now is materia because some are rarer than others. One crafter alone can ruin the entire market by themselves if they wanted to just by spamming whatever gear to saturate the market.

Materia gear has been the only savior of the market simply because you can't spam double or higher materia due to the rng factor.

PvP always makes for good competition :)

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Originally Posted by Madruk

Good design takes away the need to bot. Asian developers haven't understood this since the beginning.

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Not really. People have been cheating since the dawn of civilization.

Name one game where you can't cheat. I bet you can't. There's no such thing as "good design" when it comes to botting, everything is prone to being tampered with.

Action, MMO, Single Player RPG, FPS, Strategy, Cards, Sports (game and real life), this list goes on and on. People cheat in every single one of them. The only exception I could think of is something like frisbee lol, and that's not even a real game.

The point is, it's impossible to make anything completely immune to cheating, especially when it comes to video games. So instead of making a bot-proof game (lol), make a fun one and get rid of the people who do bot.

The idea of a bot proof game is as likely as banning everyone who does it. The point is repetitive tasks that are so prevalent in asian MMO's encourages it. I've yet to not see a Korean or similar asian MMO with systems designed that basically scream bot me.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Name one game where you can't cheat.

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Calvinball.

you guys need to chill out. The best possible remedy for this issue is to make HNM trigger popped.

Example, you farm for pop triggers in instance raids and let them drop from the NM's and bosses. The effects, everyone participating in content and working towards a goal. No silly dumb camping and afk'ing wasting time for hours.

edit: in addition, let the triggers be key items or rare/ex, untradeable that disappears upon use.



I also like limbus and this crystal tower i read about sounds interesting.

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Originally Posted by tachikoma

My favorite content from FFXI was limbus, it provided a quality gil sink, had drops along the way for farming, had a tiered drop system for each "run" leading up to a boss type finish for each run. The time cap was 60min. giving you a nice event every few days to look forward too. The final boss fights were VERY entertaining although not rediculously difficult they did force you to put in much more effort then our current ifrit/moogle. Ultima was extraordinarily difficult with draw in/hate reset and that crazy AoE. Yes you could do this with up to 18 ppl making it more of a large scale activity but if you were the most highly skilled of player you could actually solo/duo farm about 90% of it almost right up to the final boss.

This is why I said the current coffers should have added value I can see the coffers being more entertaining when you have to weigh your time invested for the outcome. I could see doing these with a few low man groups if their was more value to the drops then just town gear trash.

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I agree with the OP but I wont agree with having more gil sink as it is. Don't need a new wave of RMT being introduced to something they can sell (i.e. pops, currency, etc).

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Originally Posted by Fouluryu

I agree with the OP but I wont agree with having more gil sink as it is. Don't need a new wave of RMT being introduced to something they can sell (i.e. pops, currency, etc).

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I would have to disagree. We need more gil sinks and RMT will exists whether you do it or not.

Not interested in another 21-24 hour repop NM with all the 1337 gear so people can spend $3k on a bot and gloat about it. Those days need to be done. No more 'endgame' content where over the course of your entire play time you end up 'standing around trying to claim' 80% of the time instead of actually fighting. Structured trigger NMs like sky/sea would do fine. And let's exclude the "Just killed a jailer and he didn't drop the next pop". That crap was wack. I'm sure Yoshi will do a fine job come 2.0 for combat/battle and provide a good challenge. I'm just not expecting anything even decent until these crappy servers are tossed out the window.

Nasa was just for idiots who couldn't sync app properly on their own, it never gave a better success rate, it just auto synced everyone's claim time for them. $1500 or putting delays in vent comments, hard choice, good thing I got it for free lol. Turn and Burn though...that one was epic, and I could see a bot like that actually working on 2.0 release due to the current lack of claim delay on every mob.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Personally, yes, I think crafting bots are worse because the affect the entire server equally. More crafters at lv50 means less room for legit crafters to make a profit. The same goes for DoL. And it's likely that the legit crafters, miners, fishers and botanists got to 50 way after the bots did, which means even less of a chance for them to squeeze into the market and find a nice niche.

You're missing my point, though. No bots should be acceptable, period. I just find it funny that many don't care about the crafting/harvesting bots but completely rage at the notion of claim bots. If that's not the definition of irony, I don't know what is. People say one thing but mean another.

Hell, if they can make a "enter-spam-friendly" crafting system (very, very easy for anyone to write their own bot, or just afk turbo controller), then they sure as hell can make competitive endgame content. A bot is a bot is a bot, no matter which way you slice it. They should be dealt with by force, not evasive tactics because that's what got us in the situation we're in right now.

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I don't care for botting of any form. Just saying if FFXIV has claim-botting in its future, that's likely the end for me.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Name one game where you can't cheat. I bet you can't.

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Beer pong and flip cup.

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Originally Posted by Treach

Beer pong and flip cup.

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also bumper cars...NO RULES...RULES!

anyways like the over 40 people who like the OP...i agree 100%
The main jist and likely future of this games endgame until late 2012 seems to be primals and 25+ and 45+ dungeons over and over. And yes RMT are already here, and if this game gets better, there will be a buttload more, reguardless of what content we have.

Rather then arguing over RMT in a thread requesting endgame variety and content lets stay on track. If you have no desire for taking part in a diverse endgame environment then stop posting in this thread. If you do have suggestions then please post them up. I like all forms of endgame including trigger pops/instance/raid/HNM/etc I would like to hear from the devs that they want to add many forms of endgame and that the current excuse for endgame that we have now lolmoogle and ifrit are a joke compared to the complex intense future. And if this is going to become another one of the MMOs for hte kiddie crowd that offers no real challenges then this is not the game for me.

If the devs came out and said "we plan to introduce many forms of endgame, it is a priority that we provide challenging content to all groups of players. We are going to implement XYZ for 2.0 we are going to have many free roaming HNM's that require large scale player involvement and strategy to tackle. We are going to introduce a RELIC system for the player who wishes to put in years of work for a very long term goal" this would make me a FFXIV fan and player for life.

tldr: I want content that is more then a spammable 5min. zerg where I can't bring my mule in to the fight and come out w/o a death.

So basically you want ffxi of 2004-2005?

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Originally Posted by Treach

So basically you want ffxi of 2004-2005?

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basically he wants a "diverse endgame environment"

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Originally Posted by Splice

basically he wants a "diverse endgame environment"

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which is what 11 was back then

but 11 was an exception to the rule compared to most games cuz at the time it wasnt doing cap raises

it just kept adding, and adding, and adding to the 75 endgame


wish more games would do that, youd make content go so much further doing so but in the interest of pushing out expansions that force people to buy them via cap raising and invalidating old stuff, its more financialy sound to not do it

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

which is what 11 was back then

but 11 was an exception to the rule compared to most games cuz at the time it wasnt doing cap raises

it just kept adding, and adding, and adding to the 75 endgame


wish more games would do that, youd make content go so much further doing so but in the interest of pushing out expansions that force people to buy them via cap raising and invalidating old stuff, its more financialy sound to not do it

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The Reason XI was able to do that was gear switch. It kept gear lasting a long time while getting new gear without raising the cap. a feature everyone hated for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

The Reason XI was able to do that was gear switch. It kept gear lasting a long time while getting new gear without raising the cap. a feature everyone hated for some reason.

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gear swap was only annoying for those who went overboard with it

some people had to have sets for every ability on their bars, when it was clearly not needed for that extent

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

gear swap was only annoying for those who went overboard with it

some people had to have sets for every ability on their bars, when it was clearly not needed for that extent

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Don't forget the pack rats that would never sell anything and keep R/ex gear they never used.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

Don't forget the pack rats that would never sell anything and keep R/ex gear they never used.

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yeah definately cant forget those types
every game LOVES those types


ima hide now cuz i am one of those types lol

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

yeah definately cant forget those types
every game LOVES those types


ima hide now cuz i am one of those types lol

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I was to a point but once I needed space. Goodbye gear

I doubt that will ever happen because i think yoshi-p's goal is to make xiv a theme park, such as you log in and have fun then you get on with real life when you had enough, versus you log in and wait for something for who knows how many mins or hours to start having fun. I like Yoshi-P idea more.

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Originally Posted by Treach

So basically you want ffxi of 2004-2005?

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I'm not suggesting FF XI-2. XI was a great game, but its been done already. What I am suggesting is that certain elements to the content in XI made that content very entertaining. I would want the devs to find ways to create new and unique content that makes XIV into XIV not XI, but that doesn't mean that some of those underlying ideas from XI aren't a part of the equation. I think by suggesting what content we enjoyed in XI it may inspire them to create new entertaining content, and also give them a better idea of what kept XI going strong for 10 years.

This game will ultimately be the creative vision of the dev team, but artistry and invention both start with inspiration. As players these forums give us the opportunity to provide that inspiration.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I doubt that will ever happen because i think yoshi-p's goal is to make xiv a theme park, such as you log in and have fun then you get on with real life when you had enough, versus you log in and wait for something for who knows how many mins or hours to start having fun. I like Yoshi-P idea more.

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I totally agree with this. I always found that sitting on my butt "waiting" for something to happen or spawn was a huge waste of time.
I love the "theme park" mechanic, because pretty much gives you content when you need it, not when the game wants you to have have it. That's not challenge, it's silly and unnecessary..

:)

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Originally Posted by Kasathar

I totally agree with this. I always found that sitting on my butt "waiting" for something to happen or spawn was a huge waste of time.
I love the "theme park" mechanic, because pretty much gives you content when you need it, not when the game wants you to have have it. That's not challenge, it's silly and unnecessary..

:)

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Its funny how you mention a "theme park" style content for endgame, but then totally bash one style because you dont like it. Its like going to a theme park and not liking roller coasters so you demand they get rid of or not install them. In a theme park style of endgame content, all types of content should be available, not just what you like. Some ppl like the long spawn timers some dont. get over yourself.

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Originally Posted by Splice

Its funny how you mention a "theme park" style content for endgame, but then totally bash one style because you dont like it. Its like going to a theme park and not liking roller coasters so you demand they get rid of or not install them. In a theme park style of endgame content, all types of content should be available, not just what you like. Some ppl like the long spawn timers some dont. get over yourself.

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Some roller coasters is down right boring compared to other faster better ones. The majority will go to whats more fun, which is good business for the theme park.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

Some roller coasters is down right boring compared to other faster better ones. The majority will go to whats more fun, which is good business for the theme park.

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So you want your theme park to have one roller coaster, good luck making money.

or multiples of the same, either way, not a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Splice

So you want your theme park to have one roller coaster, good luck making money.

or multiples of the same, either way, not a good idea.

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who in their right mind will have one roller coaster? then again who in their right mind will put a slow one? You get the idea right? I doubt anyone will wait for that slow one to arrive. anyways enough about rides..

edit: I just want to say, hardcore should not be a slow process, it should be about difficultly and challenge, in a fun way.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

who in their right mind will have one roller coaster? then again who in their right mind will put a slow one? You get the idea right? I doubt anyone will wait for that slow one to arrive. anyways enough about rides..

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Some people do, dont speak for them. actually dont speak for anyone but yourself. thanks

You want a theme park of content for xiv 2.0. Theme parks have all different rides (coasters, water slides, pirate ships, etc.) to draw in as many different types of people they can to make money. XIV needs as many different, fun, entertaining, and lasting content to do the same. Long spawn HNM, instances, primal battles, etc. are all to draw in as many different people as possible and make the game entertaining to the masses. If you dont like one type of content, thats fine! there would be plenty of different things to do in this theme park of content. Dont assume that just because you dont like it or find it boring that everyone does. Its just ignorant. I bet there are enough people out there that like this type of content to justify making it.

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Originally Posted by Splice

Some people do, dont speak for them. actually dont speak for anyone but yourself. thanks

You want a theme park of content for xiv 2.0. Theme parks have all different rides (coasters, water slides, pirate ships, etc.) to draw in as many different types of people they can to make money. XIV needs as many different, fun, entertaining, and lasting content to do the same. Long spawn HNM, instances, primal battles, etc. are all to drawn in as many different people as possible and make the game entertaining to the masses. If you dont like one type of content, thats fine! there would be plenty of different things to do in this theme park of content. Dont assume that just because you dont like it or find it boring that everyone does. Its just ignorant. I bet there are enough people out there that like this type of content to justify making it.

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if you read my edit you might understand better. to top it off the majority has spoken in threads months before this one. its not desired by a lot, only a few. regarding the slow timers.

edit: just want to add, long spawn timers was done away with in xi. as i said before they can be trigger popped.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

if you read my edit you might understand better. to top it off the majority has spoken in threads months before this one. its not desired by a lot, only a few. regarding the slow timers.

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Still limiting your theme park and keeping people out of content they want. Its not for you to decide what type of content they enjoy, please understand that.

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Originally Posted by Splice

Still limiting your theme park and keeping people out of content they want. Its not for you to decide what type of content they enjoy, please understand that.

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yet you put a blind eye on the issue. i think its a matter of fairness for those who don't have time to wait on a hnm.

a solution to this is to make them trigger popped as i said before again. it can be done in a fashion where you can obtain the triggers in instances and bosses battle. once all key items is acquired you can pop the hnm associated with those items.

the results from this idea is positive and it promotes teamwork and goals. no time is lost camping in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Splice

pretty sure this thread is not about claim bots. There are plenty of threads going over why bots should not limit content. good try though, please come back with a better response than, "omg bot bot bot blah blah blah"

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The thread became about claim bots as soon as it shifted to daily pop NM's. They are synonymous with each other.

Let's talk about sandwiches next, bread is off limits as a topic though, there are already enough threads on bread.