So, they're finally at least considering giving us a glamour log?

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Possibly. Or it could just as well be more intuitive. It depends how they design the UI (and indeed how they design the feature itself). I see no reason for jumping from the idea that they'd need to change the interface to the conclusion that the result would be worse than it is now.

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It adds another caveat.

It becomes "The item in this slot takes on the appearance of the selected gear"...
"for the current/selected class only".

I suppose if they change it so that glamour must be applied through the character/equipment interface, that caveat would be less of an issue. It would only be problematic if you were allowed to right-click within the glamour log or inventory to apply a glamour as that would necessitate a secondary selection or an additional help topic defining the restriction.

And I hope that regardless of what's done, it's better than what we have no, since what we have now is a mess (multiple glamour prisms and all); I just want to see it as clean as possible.

Would this post be a year ago I would still be hopeful and happy but after all the things they did until now and all the completely overcomplicated stuff they did I am just going to wait and see what they will do (or wont). They dont have a great track record and calling it glamour history makes it really feel like we are just able to see what we have glamoured in the past. Then when we are unhappy they will declare that the community does not know what it wants and are fine with what they have done even though we asked for something simple and different..(instead of something like Pokemon we got our current LoV >_>) or they say that its all that they can do because somehow "server...stability...other reasons".

I mean we have a big current thread about this with lots of interesting arguments and there are other F2P MMOs like Rift out there that make it really easy. So its not like they dont have enough examples of how to do it. But I just fear that they will try to invent the wheel again. v_v

But hey lets all wait for that App! So that we all can see from everywhere that we simply have no room left.

(Sorry this topic is just hitting a very bad spot with me)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

They dont have a great track record and calling it glamour history makes it really feel like we are just able to see what we have glamoured in the past

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This is my concern as well. It sounds more like this "glamour history" will tell us where to reacquire items again at best, not actually allow us to just change our appearance.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Then when we are unhappy they will declare that the community does not know what it wants and are fine with what they have done even though we asked for something simple and different..

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This is one of my big fears with this. That they are going to shoehorn in a shoddy 'solution' that's easier to implement on their end, but on our end is overcomplicated, not particularly useful, and (given how housing went) is expensive or inaccessible (instead of a glamour log of all items in the game, something like a log with 10 slots per page you can choose to copy items to and each page costs 5 million Gil?). Then when people don't flock to it or eat it up, we'll get the response of "It appears players are not particularly interested in glamour, so we will not be expanding the system further."

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Originally Posted by Alleo

But hey lets all wait for that App! So that we all can see from everywhere that we simply have no room left.

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I have zero use for the app period, so having the team distracted with that is just sad. :-(

If the glamour log does happen, this I'd hope for it to be like this:
- New glamour set interface introduced as a new feature of the aesthetician.
- gear you have owned and bound to character automatically added to log.
- mix and match gear appearances, dye options, char customization options(i.e hairstyles) through the aesthetician and save as glamour sets for no cost.
- glamour sets applied to gear sets from the character menu instead of individual pieces of gear(less sure here, should the glamour remain if piece of gear is replaced? hmm)
- applying a glamour to a gear set would require the total necessary prisms/dyes as if each piece glamoured individually.

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Originally Posted by Dark-Saviour

It adds another caveat.

It becomes "The item in this slot takes on the appearance of the selected gear"...
"for the current/selected class only".

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It's more likely to add another optional step when we equip the gear. I really doubt the glamouring step would be directly tied to classes at all. That's because of all the gear that's set to be wearable by "All Classes". Is it going to be able to store 35 different glamours on each piece of gear if someone wanted to go all out and specify a different look for all 20 classes and 15 jobs in the game? That would be a huge increase in the size of the item data, and given SE's concerns over inventory space, unlikely to be possible.

If they decide to continue the pattern of applying glamours directly onto our equipped gear, it's more likely they'd give each piece a few glamour slots, most likely three. (Eight would make crafters happier, but would also mean more data space.) We could apply either one, two, or three (or possibly up to eight) different appearances onto the same piece of gear. Then when we equip it we'd need an option to choose which of its appearances to use. If you want your jobs in the same role to look alike, you'd only apply one glamour and it would automatically be used for all of them (so wouldn't be much different from now). If you want them to look different, then you'd apply multiple glamours and select between them when you equip the gear and save it to your gear sets. This would also work for differentiating things other than your current job, so "glamour for when I'm a paladin tanking a serious raid" and "glamour for when I'm a paladin hanging out with my friends at the beach" could both be set on the same equipped gear, saving you some armoury chest space.

The other possibility is that they drop the connection between glamours and equipped gear entirely and have wardrobe/outfit slots on our character and saved to our gear sets. That's a harder change because it's a complete departure from the current system, and therefore trickier to manage the transition when it's released, so I don't think it's as likely.

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Originally Posted by Dark-Saviour

something like a log with 10 slots per page you can choose to copy items to and each page costs 5 million Gil?).(

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I doubt it would cost gil to expand it, if anything it would be wardrobe expansion tickets sold on the mog station. Or given the retainer system, wardrobe expansion "rental" pay $1 more a month sub fee to rent additional wardrobe space.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Reminds me of chocobo dying.

"Hey Square can we dye our chocobos?"

*SE invents an entire chocobo feeding system with outrageous amount of depth and complexity that takes days on end if you're not lucky to get the color you want*

"I-I meant like, throw paint on them but...okay...?"

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That's perfect. My choco is blood red. I was aiming for black and just gave up when I got something that didn't suck.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

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If the system still uses an item-to-skin map rather than a slot-to-skin map, I can almost guarantee it will be one-to-one. It would be ludicrous to try to maintain that system and have a one-to-many relationship defined; the result would be both cumbersome and inefficient. There are 2 sane approaches:
1) One-to-one mapping, either of a slot or of the item. Without unlocking all gear for all classes, this cannot be done per slot, so it would currently have to be a continuance of the existing system (one item gets associated with one skin).
2) Many-to-one mapping of slots to items. Each class would get an appearance slot for each piece of gear, which is unrelated to the appearance of any other class. This is a change to the system that would not necessitate unlocking all skins for all classes, but would be more expensive than a one-to-one mapping of gear slots across classes.

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Originally Posted by Aylis

I doubt it would cost gil to expand it, if anything it would be wardrobe expansion tickets sold on the mog station. Or given the retainer system, wardrobe expansion "rental" pay $1 more a month sub fee to rent additional wardrobe space.

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I considered that this is possible (and terrifying), but opted to riff on what was done with housing instead. >_>
Hell, I could see them making some sort of library where you have to pay for a limited space to store your 'glamour grimoire', thus turning half of the population on the other in a "Screw you, they're limited and I got mine" fashion...

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

It's more likely to add another optional step when we equip the gear. I really doubt the glamouring step would be directly tied to classes at all. That's because of all the gear that's set to be wearable by "All Classes". Is it going to be able to store 35 different glamours on each piece of gear if someone wanted to go all out and specify a different look for all 20 classes and 15 jobs in the game? That would be a huge increase in the size of the item data, and given SE's concerns over inventory space, unlikely to be possible.

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You don't store entire items when you create wardrobes and appearance logs - only whether or not an appearance has been unlocked. I highly recommend looking at Rift or WildStar's systems - heck even WoW's. Rift and WildStar allow you to save multiple outfits that you can switch around at will for free. WoW lets you save outfits, though you have to visit the transmog NPC in order to swap them (and it incurs a gold cost).

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Originally Posted by Aylis

I doubt it would cost gil to expand it, if anything it would be wardrobe expansion tickets sold on the mog station. Or given the retainer system, wardrobe expansion "rental" pay $1 more a month sub fee to rent additional wardrobe space.

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If they did this, it would be THE best way to make me quit on the spot.

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Originally Posted by Dark-Saviour

If the system still uses an item-to-skin map rather than a slot-to-skin map, I can almost guarantee it will be one-to-one. It would be ludicrous to try to maintain that system and have a one-to-many relationship defined; the result would be both cumbersome and inefficient.

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It would be a couple more fields in the item data. Patch 2.2 added one new field for glamour. This would treat that one as Glamour A, while adding two more fields for Glamour B and Glamour C. When they've already demonstrated that they can add one, adding two doesn't really qualify as "ludicrous". (Adding 34, on the other hand, certainly would, which is why I said that so long as it's tied to items I don't think it would be class/job based.)

Then for which is equipped, there would be a four way specification between original appearance, glamour A, glamour B, or glamour C on each of our visible equipment slots. At two bits for each of a dozen slots, that part would add only three bytes.

So gear items would grow by maybe four bytes each (assuming a likely two bytes for a glamour ID), and our character's equipment specification by three. If they wanted to streamline the server to client data transfer, they'd only need to give us that extra data for our own character and items. For other characters around us, they'd still only need to specify a single glamour (the one that's active at the time), so that part wouldn't need to grow.

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Originally Posted by Dark-Saviour

There are 2 sane approaches:
1) One-to-one mapping, either of a slot or of the item. Without unlocking all gear for all classes, this cannot be done per slot, so it would currently have to be a continuance of the existing system (one item gets associated with one skin).

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That's just leave it as it is and don't do anything. While it's indeed quite likely, I'd consider doing nothing to be a choice to not approach the issue at all, rather than being one of the approaches.

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Originally Posted by Dark-Saviour

2) Many-to-one mapping of slots to items. Each class would get an appearance slot for each piece of gear, which is unrelated to the appearance of any other class. This is a change to the system that would not necessitate unlocking all skins for all classes, but would be more expensive than a one-to-one mapping of gear slots across classes.

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I'm not quite sure what any of it has to do with unlocking skins for different classes. I'm assuming those rules would either stay as they are now, or that if it changes, that change would be unrelated to this one.

But mapping appearance slots is the other possibility I mentioned, (though I think it would make more sense to have it gear set rather than class based). But to do that, they'd have to completely throw away what exists now, which is always a big problem in ongoing games. People aren't going to want all the glamour outfits they've already set up to suddenly disappear when a new system is released. So the transition from an item based system to an appearance slot based system would be really hard to manage well. Simply expanding on the system that's in place would make for a smoother transition.

(There's also the fact that, back when 2.2 came out, SE said they couldn't get appearance slots to work with their existing code base, and it was easier to tie the glamour to regularly equipped items. Now maybe that's changed with upgraded systems since then, but I wouldn't count on it.)

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Originally Posted by Dark-Saviour

And I hope that regardless of what's done, it's better than what we have no, since what we have now is a mess (multiple glamour prisms and all); I just want to see it as clean as possible.

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If they add "saved" glamour sets you can swap to like the gear sets (this is what it should be!) I would say just add a flat fee per piece to swap to that set - that would be a great gil sink and much more convenient. I would also have a lot more free time in game if prisms didn't exist... I'm thinking like 500-1000 gil per piece btw.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

You don't store entire items when you create wardrobes and appearance logs - only whether or not an appearance has been unlocked. I highly recommend looking at Rift or WildStar's systems - heck even WoW's. Rift and WildStar allow you to save multiple outfits that you can switch around at will for free. WoW lets you save outfits, though you have to visit the transmog NPC in order to swap them (and it incurs a gold cost).

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The system I was describing there went with "If they decide to continue the pattern of applying glamours directly onto our equipped gear", since as I explained, I think that's more likely than switching to a system with outfit/appearance slots. Outfit slots (like Rift or WildStar have) are overall a lot more efficient than item-based glamour, but SE wasn't able to make them work before, and it would be even harder to do so now, when we have a different system already in place.

A glamour log of what's unlocked is a completely different subject. A glamour log is just a yes or no for each possible item appearance, either we have it or we don't. But that only provides a new system for recording what we're able to glamour, not what we currently have glamoured, so it would be unrelated to whether we can separate out multiple glamours with the same gear.

If history has shown us anything. Never EVER believe anything until it's in the patch notes.

If you don't believe me just go thru all the past live letter Q&A and various interviews since Yoshi P took over. You could write a book with features (some of them really amazing) they had in the works for the game, then never mentioned again, even when asked repeatedly about something.

It wouldn't be so bad if they said "sorry we tried but it didn't work" but nope, they just never mention it again and ignore all questions about it.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

It would be a couple more fields in the item data. Patch 2.2 added one new field for glamour. This would treat that one as Glamour A, while adding two more fields for Glamour B and Glamour C. When they've already demonstrated that they can add one, adding two doesn't really qualify as "ludicrous". (Adding 34, on the other hand, certainly would, which is why I said that so long as it's tied to items I don't think it would be class/job based.)

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The problem comes from the sheer number of items that could be affected. Every association you add is potentially for every piece of armour in everyone's inventory, armoury chest, retainer, etc.
When they only add one, it's simply switching the map from a fixed item skin to reference a variable skin instead. With each they add, that's another flag for (arguably) minimal benefit.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

That's just leave it as it is and don't do anything. While it's indeed quite likely, I'd consider doing nothing to be a choice to not approach the issue at all, rather than being one of the approaches.

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The changes would be around the system at that point (reading from glamour log, changing how prisms work, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

I'm not quite sure what any of it has to do with unlocking skins for different classes. I'm assuming those rules would either stay as they are now, or that if it changes, that change would be unrelated to this one.

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If you have a single glamour slot that sits across all classes, all gear would have to be unlocked or you'd run into issues with say, setting the coat to a Bard-only item and then switching to White Mage. The glamour would no longer be valid.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

But mapping appearance slots is the other possibility I mentioned, (though I think it would make more sense to have it gear set rather than class based). But to do that, they'd have to completely throw away what exists now, which is always a big problem in ongoing games. People aren't going to want all the glamour outfits they've already set up to suddenly disappear when a new system is released. So the transition from an item based system to an appearance slot based system would be really hard to manage well. Simply expanding on the system that's in place would make for a smoother transition.

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If you did go with the hypothetical 4+ potential skins tied to a piece of gear, the gear sets would still have to be modified to store that flag, so I don't know that it would be significantly easier than just pointing to the skin you want in the first place, but without access to the code or DB schema, I can't really attest to that. :-/

In the end, I will support whatever is the cleanest and most intuitive approach, and while I'm sure ease of implementation will win out in the end, I can't see keeping the current system, yet adding more complexity to the process ever being a positive.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Outfit slots (like Rift or WildStar have) are overall a lot more efficient than item-based glamour, but SE wasn't able to make them work before, and it would be even harder to do so now, when we have a different system already in place.

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I don't want them trying to work around the current glamour system. That will only end with us getting a convoluted mess that doesn't actually solve anything. They need to start from scratch with glamour.

And even if they have to rework it from the ground it will be worth it because glamour will always be part of the game thus its an long time investment. (Also if they dont do anything about this there will be a time where people will simply quit because they have no place left to store all the one time glamour that cant be farmed again..)

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Originally Posted by Dark-Saviour

The problem comes from the sheer number of items that could be affected. Every association you add is potentially for every piece of armour in everyone's inventory, armoury chest, retainer, etc.
When they only add one, it's simply switching the map from a fixed item skin to reference a variable skin instead. With each they add, that's another flag for (arguably) minimal benefit.

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What you call "minimal benefit" is fixing something that for many players is the biggest problem the glamour system has. (Or in my own view, one of the two biggest problems.) Certainly an important enough one to be worth a couple extra flags per gear item (and yes, that's for all the gear items we're holding, the same as our current glamour).

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Originally Posted by Dark-Saviour

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

I'm not quite sure what any of it has to do with unlocking skins for different classes. I'm assuming those rules would either stay as they are now, or that if it changes, that change would be unrelated to this one.

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If you have a single glamour slot that sits across all classes, all gear would have to be unlocked or you'd run into issues with say, setting the coat to a Bard-only item and then switching to White Mage. The glamour would no longer be valid.

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Which is exactly how it works now. The glamour we apply is across all classes, and if you glamour something that's only available to one of them, then whenever you switch to another class, the glamour doesn't work and the underlying gear is displayed instead. Of course, if SE is making changes in glamour, changing how that works could well be one of them. But whether it is or not would be unrelated to whether they add a couple more available glamours onto the item.

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Originally Posted by Dark-Saviour

If you did go with the hypothetical 4+ potential skins tied to a piece of gear, the gear sets would still have to be modified to store that flag, so I don't know that it would be significantly easier than just pointing to the skin you want in the first place, but without access to the code or DB schema, I can't really attest to that. :-/

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Our gear sets already know what glamour skin we were using when the gear set was stored (as well as what color it was and what materia it had), but the way gear sets work is essentially just saying "These are the items I would like to equip. Are they available?" Then the system checks our armory chest to try and find them. So you could modify the file to say your glamour is an item you've never actually received in the game, but when you try to equip that set, you'd just get the warning that a matching item with that glamour cannot be found. Regardless of what your gear sets say, you can only equip items and glamours that you actually have on hand. That puts the important part of the data with the item itself which SE holds in its database where it's less readily hackable than gear sets that we store.

Without knowing their code base, I don't know what other reasons there are as well, but I'm pretty sure that's one of them. (Though it's one that could be solved if they'd move the storage of gear sets to their own servers.)

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I don't want them trying to work around the current glamour system. That will only end with us getting a convoluted mess that doesn't actually solve anything. They need to start from scratch with glamour.

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Throwing out the whole system and starting from scratch would be pretty drastic. While I wouldn't oppose their doing so if there was something to be gained in the process, there would have to be a significant reason for something like that. The big problems with glamour now, at least the ones I'm aware of, can be fixed without it. Are there other issues besides the two I'd brought up (the storage problems that could be solved with a glamour log, and the inability to use different glamour together with the same base gear)?

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

What you call "minimal benefit" is fixing something that for many players is the biggest problem the glamour system has. (Or in my own view, one of the two biggest problems.) Certainly an important enough one to be worth a couple extra flags per gear item (and yes, that's for all the gear items we're holding, the same as our current glamour).

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If it's tied to slots, I'd say there's likely enough benefit to it to pursue. Adding extra glamour tags to individual items though, not so much in my eyes. It makes the system more convoluted and cumbersome, and will still result in you having to re-glamour every time you get new gear (4 times per item, at that), so its not especially convenient.

I'm not saying that some people wouldn't use it, as people will probably latch onto whatever they can get at this point, but I don't see that as a long-term solution that will actually make anyone happy (and I'd personally just continue to avoid glamour on intermediate gear 90% of the time and stick to one slot per item).

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

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(Though it's one that could be solved if they'd move the storage of gear sets to their own servers.)

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I actually hadn't realized that gear sets were saved locally, though with that being the case, then yes, that is something that absolutely needs to change.

In addition, if they're actually storing flags for item type, materia, etc. I consider that to be unnecessary bloat as well; the gear set should purely point at a unique item ID associated with each piece of gear itself, and that should be all it needs to know about.
I hadn't considered that these flags were tied to the actual gear-set association (though since it does whine about materia, glamour, etc. being different if you change them and don't reassociate, that does make sense), but I don't honestly see enough benefit to that approach to justify its continued existence.
If you've discarded or stored a piece of associated gear, but have another instance of it on you, "X was not found. Do you want to equip (other) X" is more than enough. If you change the glamour/materia, you chose to do so and the associated item itself has not changed, so it should not need acknowledgement or to provide any warning/error.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Throwing out the whole system and starting from scratch would be pretty drastic. While I wouldn't oppose their doing so if there was something to be gained in the process, there would have to be a significant reason for something like that. The big problems with glamour now, at least the ones I'm aware of, can be fixed without it. Are there other issues besides the two I'd brought up (the storage problems that could be solved with a glamour log, and the inability to use different glamour together with the same base gear)?

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In the past, SE has cited data issues/server load for their reluctance to implement a glamour log. Presumably, fundamental changes to how glamours work may be necessary, for the feature to be practical, data wise. We can only wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Rhinos

In the past, SE has cited data issues/server load for their reluctance to implement a glamour log. Presumably, fundamental changes to how glamours work may be necessary, for the feature to be practical, data wise. We can only wait and see.

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I get that it's problematic for their databases, but I don't get how anyone could accept that as a valid excuse for not adding extremely desired features to the game.

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Originally Posted by Rhinos

In the past, SE has cited data issues/server load for their reluctance to implement a glamour log. Presumably, fundamental changes to how glamours work may be necessary, for the feature to be practical, data wise. We can only wait and see.

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I doubt any fundamental changes (or even any trivial changes for that matter) to how glamours work would have anything at all to do with a glamour log, since the log is just a way to store items prior to glamouring them (or rather to switch from storing the items to just tracking which are available).

Whether it's in a log or in inventory like now, either way the only thing it's doing for the glamour system is identifying a list of what appearances can be used. What the glamour system then does with those appearances, whether it's recording them onto other items or on outfit slots, is outside the domain of the log. (In fact, if the software is structured well, the glamour log software should be completely unaware of what type of glamour system is in place, and vice versa.)

Fixing the other issue (the one about separate appearances with shared gear) on the other hand, does involve changes to how glamour itself works, so that one could at least potentially involve a more fundamental change to the system as a whole. I just don't see any compelling reason to jump from "it potentially could" to the conclusion that it would need to.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I get that it's problematic for their databases, but I don't get how anyone could accept that as a valid excuse for not adding extremely desired features to the game.

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Because significant dev resources would be required to rebuild systems from the ground up, they didn't want to give a definitive answer at the time(That's my guess anyway). Regardless, the good news is that SE now appears to be planning the feature after all(or at least some big change to glamours). We can only speculate on what that entails.

Isn't the player base fairly desperate for a usable system. I am sure I have seen people say they would settle for the aesthetician interface. Meaning it would be locked away and usableonly in a certain place. I think that would greatly reduce some of the stress.

No one is asking that this dev team be as good as other teams as implementing features. A solid base and then down the road if they want to upgrade or come up with some new design, great for us. For now give us a simple, usable, quality product. No silly design where you try to look smart and it just comes off as bad.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Throwing out the whole system and starting from scratch would be pretty drastic.

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Not drastic when their current system is crap and based off poor coding. They should fix it from the ground up instead of trying to scaffold together something with toothpicks.

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Originally Posted by Rhinos

Because significant dev resources would be required to rebuild systems from the ground up, they didn't want to give a definitive answer at the time(That's my guess anyway). Regardless, the good news is that SE now appears to be planning the feature after all(or at least some big change to glamours).

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Yet they use resources for an App and used resources for photo mode and things like that. (I am fine with that feature but sometimes I wish they would try to solve the big problems instead of giving us these changes first)

Also seeing how they always change their opinion about a glamour option from one interview to the other (from it being impossible, to its possible but not high priority to being not that possible again, to wanting to introduce a glamour history) I will remain skeptic until we have that in the game. Seeing how long they took for the egi glamour system I dont have that much hope that we will get it before 5.0

I just want something similiar to what Guild Wars 2 has: A book with all unlocked glamour skins. This way I can free up alot of inventory spots.

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Originally Posted by Dark-Saviour

I considered that this is possible (and terrifying), but opted to riff on what was done with housing instead. >_>
Hell, I could see them making some sort of library where you have to pay for a limited space to store your 'glamour grimoire', thus turning half of the population on the other in a "Screw you, they're limited and I got mine" fashion...

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Sadly it wouldn't shock me in the least if they took that route. More so sadly because I'm honestly expecting it to happen. If the way they worked retainers taught me anything is that they sure don't have a problem getting over the ps3, ps4, old pc, miss use of currant resources, server, memory, storage, sad moogles or whatever limitations they have. If it means being able to tack on additional service fees for rental space.

$30+ a month subscription fees, please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Not drastic when their current system is crap and based off poor coding. They should fix it from the ground up instead of trying to scaffold together something with toothpicks.

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You missed the point. You'd already said that you'd instead want it thrown out and started over from scratch. What I asked was why. Just gratuitously saying it's "crap" doesn't mean anything unless there's something crappy about it. As I said:

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

While I wouldn't oppose their doing so if there was something to be gained in the process, there would have to be a significant reason for something like that. The big problems with glamour now, at least the ones I'm aware of, can be fixed without it. Are there other issues besides the two I'd brought up (the storage problems that could be solved with a glamour log, and the inability to use different glamour together with the same base gear)?

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If you'd provide a reason, then we could discuss it. If you can't, then I'm not sure why you're sticking with your idea that the whole system should be replaced. What benefit are you hoping to gain from that, that fixing the problems in the current system couldn't achieve?

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Originally Posted by Laerune

I just want something similiar to what Guild Wars 2 has: A book with all unlocked glamour skins. This way I can free up alot of inventory spots.

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This is what everyone of us is dreaming of. .... Careful optimism here.