Sadly sayiing goodbye to SCH

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

SCH's raid healing seems to be back on track now, but IMO SCH went from being the subtle champ of 4 man content to being rather underwhelming now =(

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WHM was better in dungeons in hw too if we're going to use healer's dps as the discriminating factor. A good sch can still easily reach 2k dps in a dungeon and its single target heals are very solid, probably stronger than whm's. But that's not the point the op's trying to make. He's suggesting that sch's healing capabilities are lackluster when compared to ast's and whm's. This is absurd. SCH was and still is the best single target healer, if he's struggling keeping the tank alive during big pulls, it just proves that he's a very bad sch and he's not using his toolkit correctly. Of course, st healing is way easier on whm/ast, you just stand there and spam cure2/benefic2, or at least this is what most mediocre healers tend to do but it works for trivial content.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

You're forgetting about Shadow Flare, but I get what you are trying to say. We don't have an AOE damage spell that we can spam like WHM's Holy.

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Miasma 2 can and should be spammed if you have spare mp.

The only thing i would change to SCH is the MP cost for adlo, its just too high for no reason at all.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

You're forgetting about Shadow Flare, but I get what you are trying to say. We don't have an AOE damage spell that we can spam like WHM's Holy.

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At the risk of repeating myself - we have miasma II now :) no cast time, so can weave in stuff for extra damage if you don't think there's any damage inc that would make you need to use AF stacks on healing. Weaving in ED also counters miasma II MP cost.

And since it's a DOT, even if you need to stop DPSing to heal there will still be damage being dealt to mobs.

I do however miss having a third bane-able dot :(

Miasma II is good spam in dungeons because it's base 100 potency doesn't disintegrate with more mobs unlike with the other two healer AoEs. Plus using ED to keep MP going, pushing Aetherflow clock lower, and building the fairy gauge. As you should be using fairy tether for large pulls. SCH for dungeon use isn't as boring or annoying as it was at the beginning of Stormblood.

The only downside was if you had big tank pulls and extremely low DPS where junk doesn't die, Scholar's limited resources such as tether/stacks will run out sooner than a WHM. But this is also less of an issue now that SCH has good AoE.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

WHM was better in dungeons in hw too if we're going to use healer's dps as the discriminating factor.

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IMO SCH actually did better sustained DPS when taken as an average across the dungeon, the exception to that was of course if you ran with a decent SMN or such. I posted video guides here at Heavensward's release demonstrating how to sustain 1K DPS in iLvl 180 gear as SCH before Gordias was released.

Whilst I mostly agree with you regarding the OP, I do have a little sympathy, it can be pretty rough healing big pulls as a fresh 60 when it's not something you're expecting. Once you've adjusted to it then it's generally not a problem, but those early runs are likely to be a shock to the system given how heavily gated most of the SB levelling dungeons are. I don't think SCH itself is the problem tho, rather a lack of communication and/or common sense within that dungeon group as a whole.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

AST wasn't OP until 3.4, and was not released until 3.0. But do you know what SCH has always had since it's release? A guaranteed spot in any end game raid. SCH has always been strong, if not OP, since ARR.

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No it wasn't. When ARR first dropped scholars weren't always welcome in groups. I've played the scholar as my healer since ARR launched. The class never really struggled in my opinion but I recall many times being denied groups for the then hard mode primals and first turns of coil just because I was on a scholar. Once people realized scholars healed differently than whm' the opinion shifted and you didn't see this much anymore.

OP sorry you are not happy with the scholar. While there are still a couple of issues the scholar is a fully capable healer. Personally, I still prefer it to the others. However, if you are not having then you should definitely try a diffferent class.

I main WHM but have all three healers at 70. I leveled SCH before the buffs they gave them and it was tougher than WHM or AST mainly due to not being accustomed to a lack of MP. After the buffs however, SCH feels (to me at least) comfortable again. The only real differences I see in 4.0 vs 3.0 is the weaker aoe due to the bane nerf (though yay for new Miasma II!), that I use Emergency Tactics more liberally now since the cooldown was lowered, and the fact that I actually have to cast my heals more often since my fairy can't solo heal like before due to the Embrace nerf. But that's ok by me cause, ultimately, a SCH is a healer... they should be healing just like a WHM or an AST. Now granted the fairy gives SCH's more opportunity to dps, but at the end of the day they are still healers.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

WHM was better in dungeons in hw too if we're going to use healer's dps as the discriminating factor. A good sch can still easily reach 2k dps in a dungeon and its single target heals are very solid, probably stronger than whm's. But that's not the point the op's trying to make. He's suggesting that sch's healing capabilities are lackluster when compared to ast's and whm's. This is absurd.

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I thought I was very clear to say my complaint is pre 68. My favorite part of the game is roulette dungeons, more often than not, I wont have Exco, 45s Aetherflow or fay during those dungeons. Everyone else pretty much gets their full healing toolkit by that point. Lower MP costs, and a slightly stronger healing fay, kept me in line with the other healers.

Never mind that now I cant refresh Shadow Flare on every spawn, my rant is still focused on healing most of the game dungeons (late ARR and HW mostly)

Throughout the thread I keep seeing the same over and over: Exco, Fay Union and 45s aetherflow are great, but I never argued that. Maybe I should complain how Scholar progression is completely [bleeped] up.

At minimum, I would like Quickened Aetherflow to be available MUCH much earlier, that may at least give me more MP recovery tools and faster stacks when I need MP efficiency the most. A Scholar specific trait to reduce the cast of Shadow Flare drastically would be also highly appreciated.

Um, the recently buffed Quickened Aetherflow is perfectly fine, the question is why aren't you aggressively using stacks enough to trigger the -5s.

SCH is so fun now with Miasma 2 changes.

You shouldn't let nerfs dictate if you are going to play a class or not. For most content besides maybe high savage you can play anything and get through the content just fine. Just play what you enjoy and do your best to become skilled in that job.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

At the risk of repeating myself - we have miasma II now :) no cast time, so can weave in stuff for extra damage if you don't think there's any damage inc that would make you need to use AF stacks on healing. Weaving in ED also counters miasma II MP cost.

And since it's a DOT, even if you need to stop DPSing to heal there will still be damage being dealt to mobs.

I do however miss having a third bane-able dot :(

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They buffed the damage of Bio II and Miasma I thought, No? Not as strong to compensate for the loss of a third DoT but you also don't need to swap to clerics and you can Bane immediately without having to wait a sec for Bio1 to land fue to server ticks. Ruin and Broil were also buffed and SCH was given MND traits, which before we lacked. So we lost some but gained some.

My only problem is we went from the healer who was the least likely to go OOM, to the most likely.

Astros and White Mages can finish savage fights with full MP, while my scholar MP bar is constantly on life support. It's such a change lol.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

They buffed the damage of Bio II and Miasma I thought, No? Not as strong to compensate for the loss of a third DoT but you also don't need to swap to clerics and you can Bane immediately without having to wait a sec for Bio1 to land fue to server ticks. Ruin and Broil were also buffed and SCH was given MND traits, which before we lacked. So we lost some but gained some.

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Bio II and Miasma did not change at all.

Also of note-Miasma II should never be used for single target. Broil II does more.

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Originally Posted by technole

Um, the recently buffed Quickened Aetherflow is perfectly fine, the question is why aren't you aggressively using stacks enough to trigger the -5s.

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Glad all you do is run level 70 dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

At minimum, I would like Quickened Aetherflow to be available MUCH much earlier, that may at least give me more MP recovery tools and faster stacks when I need MP efficiency the most. A Scholar specific trait to reduce the cast of Shadow Flare drastically would be also highly appreciated.

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Even without quickened af, healing through dungeons while still doing dps as a sch is a piece of cake. To be honest I was forcing myself to use more ED and exco because I just didn't know what to do with all those af stacks.

I still think some SCHs haven't really adjusted to the idea that the job got away with practically the most minimal PIE build back in Creator Savage, it was avoided so much because it was once the MP battery job. Now it's a new expansion and you have to reset expectations that White Mage is the MP battery. If you hadn't adjusted to the idea that PIE is still your lifestone, that 10% Aetherflow is based off your max PIE, just like White Mage Assize.

With that said. It doesn't matter where you play, even in Omega Savage you should be aggressive with stack use to keep Aetherflow constantly on cool down, if you are sitting on stacks too long no wonder why you are complaining. Lucid Dreaming is also not enough to keep up damage and healing full-time. Also. the fairy tether has some good spot uses so it's wise to keep utilization high enough to keep building the gauge. Getting around 19k+ MP is a nice spot to be in.

The quick Aetherflow trait only improved SCH MP management, and rewards the players that actually play their stacks job aggressively. If you are too conservative, you won't see this benefit that much. What i mean by aggressive is you shouldn't be burning 3 stacks on Lustrates when possible, your job is get someone in safe HP range, Eos Embrace can finish the job. Use Excog on someone if they will benefit from the <50% heal immediately instead. That will save another Lustrate too. Aggressiveness with Energy Drain can be very important for economy, you know where damage is coming, and if it's your chance to get Aetherflow back on CD real soon, use it on ED. Be smart.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

Glad all you do is run level 70 dungeons.

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I avoid expert roulette like the plague unless I get dragged-in. So many other ways to cap in this game now, no wonder why they are going down to one new dungeon every odd patch.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Bio II and Miasma did not change at all.

Also of note-Miasma II should never be used for single target. Broil II does more.

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Not really. Miasma II is good for oGCD weaving or movement if you're on the boss if you can get the full tick since it does more than Ruin II.

Yep, Miasma II weaving and/or when you have melee uptime on the boss. Going to disengage soon too? Get those ticks up. Don't listen to anyone who says it's not good for single target. That is another set of ticks with your other two. This raid tier you have plenty of opportunities to take advantage of.

Would Miasma II be worth using up close over Broil because of the potential auto attack? Not sure if an extra book swing would be enough to make up 20 potency or not.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Would Miasma II be worth using up close over Broil because of the potential auto attack? Not sure if an extra book swing would be enough to make up 20 potency or not.

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Its 30 difference. Sps also would shorten the gap, but literally using any ogcd ability, even lucid dreaming, would put you at a dps gain.

If they would have made miasma II an aoe dot as it is now based on the targets location at twice the mp of broil instead of 2.5 times, the skill would have flawlessly replaced the function of both aero and blizzard II, while doing it better.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Would Miasma II be worth using up close over Broil because of the potential auto attack? Not sure if an extra book swing would be enough to make up 20 potency or not.

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Ideally, if you can stand still for the entire fight, say on a practice dummy, you will never want to weave in Miasma II on a single target.

Broil II > Miasma II

However, because most fights force you to move at some point, being able to get on a 3rd set of dots to tick while you run away spamming Ruin II during movement phases will help maximize your DPS. Basically, lower DPS is better than no DPS during mechanic phases where you can't stay still to cast Broil II.

Edit: Using auto attacks, won't make up the difference.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

Ideally, if you can stand still for the entire fight, say on a practice dummy, you will never want to weave in Miasma II on a single target.

Broil II > Miasma II

However, because most fights force you to move at some point, being able to get on a 3rd set of dots to tick while you run away spamming Ruin II during movement phases will help maximize your DPS. Basically, lower DPS is better than no DPS during mechanic phases where you can't stay still to cast Broil II.

Edit: Using auto attacks, won't make up the difference.

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If you watch that 2.9k sch parse in o1s. That sch have used 25x miasma 2 in this fight.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

Ideally, if you can stand still for the entire fight, say on a practice dummy, you will never want to weave in Miasma II on a single target.

Broil II > Miasma II

However, because most fights force you to move at some point, being able to get on a 3rd set of dots to tick while you run away spamming Ruin II during movement phases will help maximize your DPS. Basically, lower DPS is better than no DPS during mechanic phases where you can't stay still to cast Broil II.

Edit: Using auto attacks, won't make up the difference.

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Miasma II + Energy Drain (plus letting the M2 DoT run it's duration) is more DPS than clipping the GCD with Broil II + Energy Drain. Really, if you can spare the time for Miasma II's animation, you're better off using it for just about every oGCD that you don't have Bio II for, rather than clipping.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

If you watch that 2.9k sch parse in o1s. That sch have used 25x miasma 2 in this fight.

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I never said you should never use Miasma.

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Originally Posted by Riyshn

Miasma II + Energy Drain (plus letting the M2 DoT run it's duration) is more DPS than clipping the GCD with Broil II + Energy Drain. Really, if you can spare the time for Miasma II's animation, you're better off using it for just about every oGCD that you don't have Bio II for, rather than clipping.

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With aetherflow stacks being used for our other abilties, Excog, Indom, Lustrate, and Sacred Soil I rarely ever use more than 1 energy drain. I try to never use energy drain after Broil II for obvious reasons. Also I already Miasma II + Energy Drain for movement mechanics. I see the point you are trying to make, but you are making assumptions as to my play style.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1847055036

Can anyone tell me how exactly these two skills work together if your original target for Adloquium takes damage before Deployment disperses the barrier to other players. Is the Adloquium Barrier given to other players going to be at the full strength you casted it or the reduced version since your primary target took damage? Tanks are my normal target for Adlo and as such they take a few hits between adding Eye for an Eye and then Deployment Tactics more often than not.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

Can anyone tell me how exactly these two skills work together if your original target for Adloquium takes damage before Deployment disperses the barrier to other players. Is the Adloquium Barrier given to other players going to be at the full strength you casted it or the reduced version since your primary target took damage? Tanks are my normal target for Adlo and as such they take a few hits between adding Eye for an Eye and then Deployment Tactics more often than not.

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I macroed it to target my fairy as the point of disperse.
then you can manually adjust where you want to put your fairy

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

Can anyone tell me how exactly these two skills work together if your original target for Adloquium takes damage before Deployment disperses the barrier to other players. Is the Adloquium Barrier given to other players going to be at the full strength you casted it or the reduced version since your primary target took damage? Tanks are my normal target for Adlo and as such they take a few hits between adding Eye for an Eye and then Deployment Tactics more often than not.

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It deploys the current shield value. Generally if you're planning a Deploy, you want to do it off either the fairy (so you can control the position), or an OT WAR to get the boost from Convalescence + Defiance.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

I never said you should never use Miasma.



With aetherflow stacks being used for our other abilties, Excog, Indom, Lustrate, and Sacred Soil I rarely ever use more than 1 energy drain. I try to never use energy drain after Broil II for obvious reasons. Also I already Miasma II + Energy Drain for movement mechanics. I see the point you are trying to make, but you are making assumptions as to my play style.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1847055036

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I'm well aware of the numbers, thank you. And I'm not making any assumptions about your playstyle. Note that I said it would work for "just about every oGCD that you don't have Bio II for". So not so much for all Lustrates or Indoms, but things like Excog, where you don't need it applied right at this second? Better to hit Miasma II and use the oGCD ability during the GCD, rather than clipping after a hardcast for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

I never said you should never use Miasma.



With aetherflow stacks being used for our other abilties, Excog, Indom, Lustrate, and Sacred Soil I rarely ever use more than 1 energy drain. I try to never use energy drain after Broil II for obvious reasons. Also I already Miasma II + Energy Drain for movement mechanics. I see the point you are trying to make, but you are making assumptions as to my play style.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1847055036

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In the post I wrote just before your first post I said that even weaving Lucid was enough to make miasma II a dps gain, not even counting the sps dot bonus it gets.

One ogcd = 1 second. Thats a potency loss of (1/2.5)*230>>> 30. Therefore by weaving it with miasma II you save gcd clipping = dps gain. Any ogcd ability will do.

Been a SCH since 2.0 and made the change to AST, no regrets for now.
It's not a question of DPS or healing or even mana, there is simply nothing a SCH can do than an AST cannot.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

Been a SCH since 2.0 and made the change to AST, no regrets for now.
It's not a question of DPS or healing or even mana, there is simply nothing a SCH can do than an AST cannot.

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There is at least one thing: AST can't provide regen and shields at the same time.

SCH has shields by default, with Eos' Whispering Dawn for AoE regen (and Embraces are like a pseudo-regen). WHM has multiple regen effects, while also gaining Divine Benison late in the game for a single-target shield.

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Originally Posted by sumiree

I macroed it to target my fairy as the point of disperse.
then you can manually adjust where you want to put your fairy

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Sadly this is what I've resorted to as well. I'd love to do it to the Warrior, but it's gone too quickly.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

Been a SCH since 2.0 and made the change to AST, no regrets for now.
It's not a question of DPS or healing or even mana, there is simply nothing a SCH can do than an AST cannot.

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Oh sure there is. AST cannot provide constant and consistent FREE healing throughout the entirety of a fight. AST cannot single target heal anywhere near what up to 3 Lustrates can do in a matter of seconds. As stated by the previous poster, AST cannot shield and regen at the same time in the middle of battle. AST cannot provide consistent, sustained personal DPS. AST cannot spread both a crit shield AND Eye for an Eye to every member of the party.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

AST cannot spread both a crit shield AND Eye for an Eye to every member of the party.

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To be fair, neither can schs most of the time :^)

Can't really fish for critlo because of the high cost, and if spreading eye was kinda pointless before now it's even moreso since it takes up a role skill slot which you could use for something else... like CS.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

To be fair, neither can schs most of the time :^)

Can't really fish for critlo because of the high cost, and if spreading eye was kinda pointless before now it's even moreso since it takes up a role skill slot which you could use for something else... like CS.

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Neither of those points actually disprove the fact that we can do both of those things and ASTs cannot. Non-crit shields can still be deployed, Eye can still be deployed, neither of these things are doable by an AST.

I'd argue spreading Eye for an Eye is somewhat pointless as most damage will usually be focused on the tank(s) anyway so the rest of the group doesn't benefit from it as much, if at all.

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Originally Posted by jstamos

Neither of those points actually disprove the fact that we can do both of those things and ASTs cannot. Non-crit shields can still be deployed, Eye can still be deployed, neither of these things are doable by an AST.

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That would be because AST doesn't need to spread their shields. Noct Aspected Helios is already a larger shield than a non-crit Adlo, and is on the GCD instead of being locked behind Deployment Tactics's 120sec CD.

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Originally Posted by Riyshn

That would be because AST doesn't need to spread their shields. Noct Aspected Helios is already a larger shield than a non-crit Adlo, and is on the GCD instead of being locked behind Deployment Tactics's 120sec CD.

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...yeah except we also have Succor, so you can save DT until you got a crit, if you wanted.

And let's be real: of all the healer skills that are teed up for the nerf bat, Noct shields are #1.

A Crit-Deploy vs a normal potency A.Helios or Succor can be the difference in taking any damage at-all or people barely surviving a mechanic they messed up compared to death. Or a tank/DPS missing some mitigation skill like Addle/Reprisal. So you can't say it's the same thing. The Scholar is always going to win in the Crit department.

E4E on a Deploy is kind of useless most of the time unless you are spreading for a like a double tank/adds situation. Like O3S Dragon, Giant/Ninja adds are notable places where both tanks and party can benefit from Deploy.

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Originally Posted by technole

A Crit-Deploy vs a normal potency A.Helios or Succor can be the difference in taking any damage at-all or people barely surviving a mechanic they messed up compared to death. Or a tank/DPS missing some mitigation skill like Addle/Reprisal. So you can't say it's the same thing. The Scholar is always going to win in the Crit department.

E4E on a Deploy is kind of useless most of the time unless you are spreading for a like a double tank/adds situation. Like O3S Dragon, Giant/Ninja adds are notable places where both tanks and party can benefit from Deploy.

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... out of curiosity, how much crit are you stacking to think of critlo as a being reliable?

I don't mean to imply it's not amazing. Really, it bloody well IS. It's a good thing to have and feels amazing when you do it, but is it something you can plan for?

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Originally Posted by jstamos

...yeah except we also have Succor, so you can save DT until you got a crit, if you wanted.

And let's be real: of all the healer skills that are teed up for the nerf bat, Noct shields are #1.

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Succor is in no way equivalent to Noct Asp.Helios or Deployed Adlo.

Succor: 150p (AoE)
Crit Succor: 210p (AoE)
Adlo: 300p (Single Target, Deployable on 120sec CD)
Crit Adlo: 840 (Single Target, Deployable on 120sec CD)

Asp.Helios: 258.75p (AoE)
Crit Asp.Helios: 362.25p (AoE)
Asp.Benefic: 575p (Single Target)
Crit Asp.Benefic: 805p (Single Target)

The only time SCH comes out on top is with a Critlo, and even then it's only by 35p. And we can't exactly rely on being able to get a crit. We can't even reasonably fish for them any more with the stat rebalances from the expansion and Adlo's increased cost.