Not again...

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Originally Posted by Zumi

The only way a Paladin beats the other 2 tanks is either if you are getting help like the AST is giving balance only to you or you are not o.ohaving to do tank mechanics such as the sword qte you let some poor dps to it on Susano or not getting balls cause you let a ranged or healer do it while the other tank still does their job.

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That us factually incorrect,, pld us doing more damage unbuffed than the other two. plz check your shit and make sure you're not just putting your foot in your moth with your posts.

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Originally Posted by Poison_Rose

Unless they significantly lengthen the cast time, you should still be able to get 5 holy spirits in. You would just lose the ability to use ogcds between casts.

Which would be sad, actually. I would miss it.

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That's exactly what I want to avoid. I don't want to be a fake caster for any length of time. I'd rather just have a potency nerf.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

That's exactly what I want to avoid. I don't want to be a fake caster for any length of time. I'd rather just have a potency nerf.

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As much as I hate to say it, I think that's exactly what they're going to go for. Losing the ogcds that is. Something something, raising the skill floor.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

The only way a Paladin beats the other 2 tanks is either if you are getting help like the AST is giving balance only to you or you are not having to do tank mechanics such as the sword qte you let some poor dps to it on Susano or not getting balls cause you let a ranged or healer do it while the other tank still does their job.

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This just isn't true. Paladin currently does the highest overall damage of all the tanks while arguably working the least to achieve it. Warrior has to go through a whole twelve step program to maybe, possibly, hopefully pull off six Fell Cleaves. Wait. Did the boss just jump? Rip all your damage. Is the boss going to jump before you can build up? Gotta do a baby opener for much less damage. Dark Knight, meanwhile, is the weakest of the three. FFLogs even accounts for this. Look at the no balance column. 43 Paladin have broke 3,000+ DPS without balance carries. Only five Warriors and Dark Knights have managed that.

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

PLD main here and the argument 'but pld offers utility!!!' doesn't hold when you don't need it

Group Mitigation is all nice if you have shit healers or awful gear, but as the gear progresses, PoA & divine veil will lose its worth because 'hey we survive it just as well without it' and that's where the damage comes in.

The raids in this game are centered around damage. You can skip mechanics if you do enough damage, so why take a pld if you don'T need the mitigation when you can have a drk that makes more dps?


the HS nerf is minor, but the problem is real. The utility paladin offers is not something that gets used or is even needed outside the first 3 weeks of raiding

Group Utility is centered around dps. If PLD had a group buff that would increase the damage of the party by 5% or w/e, then the damage the paladin does not do would be done by the party, but a 4500 hp shield on top of a fully healed, already shielded party does not kill the boss faster

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This I agree with, but there is nothing that can be done about it SE don't balance around DPS of a single tank as they said before in a LL. They balance overall group DPS with different comps, if they match there requirements everything fine. Its the player-base who creates this negative and meta game play in this MMO. There is nothing that can be done about this, people leave and people stay and make due. Unfortunately one of the tanks will always be left out just like DPS.

We will have to accept it and move on, no amount of complaints will make SE balance a fight on a per job basis as they would never be able to meat the 3 month patch requirements. That is from Yoshi's own mouth.

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Originally Posted by Faeon

This I agree with, but there is nothing that can be done about it SE don't balance around DPS of a single tank as they said before in a LL. They balance overall group DPS with different comps, if they match there requirements everything fine. Its the player-base who creates this negative and meta game play in this MMO. There is nothing that can be done about this, people leave and people stay and make due. Unfortunately one of the tanks will always be left out just like DPS.

We will have to accept it and move on, no amount of complaints will make SE balance a fight on a per job basis as they would never be able to meat the 3 month patch requirements. That is from Yoshi's own mouth.

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but why couldn't it be Warrior for once :<

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

but why couldn't it be Warrior for once :<

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I wish I could answer this, I just don't know. Though they love WAR since it got a complete rework in 2.x, got made the near perfect tank in 3.x with dps and utility.

I moved from PLD to WAR and DRK in 3.x or I could not clear raid content since groups were "PLD get the Fxxx out of here quotes" so I understand how you feel.

Maybe they got some dev who is just like every job is shit except WAR lol! Your guess is as good as mine.

You can't bring all defensive utility and nice dps to one tank.
But playerbase think all is about dps now. All the time.
Gordias bring this in the mind, but don't tell it was the case on A9s to A12s pls...
Now you won't change this bad mentality about tank dps now. and it make PLD to want equal dps instead of more defensive utility, because the first care of the playerbase is the dps, by the way, load of midcore savage raiders, think only about dps and put as a priority before the mecanics, it slow the progress a lot.
PLD is fine i think even after this little nerf, but how to change mind of the playerbase about dps. i can understand why PLD want dps so strongly.

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Originally Posted by Pence

But you can't just keep buffing everyone........then you need to adjust all content because the average DPS is higher, etc etc etc. It's much, much easier to bring a job down then bring everyone else up

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Sure we can!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8...utu.be&t=4m55s

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

You can't bring all defensive utility and nice dps to one tank.
But playerbase think all is about dps. All the time.
Gordias bring this in the mind, but don't tell it was the case on A9s to A12s pls...
Now you won't change this bad mentality about tank dps now. and it make PLD to want equal dps instead of more defensive utility, because the first care of the playerbase is the dps, by the way, load of midcore savage raiders, think only about dps and put as a priority before the mecanics, it slow the progress a lot.

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Ironically most of this playerbase aren't even qualified to complain about drk being ahead of pld in speedkills. How many of those who cleared a12s actually ever managed to tank the whole fight without tank stance? Most of the pugs I've seen still adopt the MT-OT, MH-OH style, with one MT turtle tanking in grit/shield oath and one MH healing nearly the whole time. If they complain about a12s being almost purely magic damage heavy and pld being bad there, sure, I agree that it's a very valid concern.

Gordias was famous for being dps check heavy, but people often forget that it's also difficult to optimize tanking/healing there (I never cleared a3s when it was current so I may not be qualified to comment on this either). Most of the damages going to tanks in a3s and a4s are actually cleaves with no cast bar, so planning and timing your mitigation cds for them to allow for less tank stance uptime is hard. On top of that a3s requires a lot of boss repositioning, so if the tank is bad at it, melees will lose a lot of positionals. Midas a7s and a8s are probably good examples of fights where pld's extra physical mitigation, divine veil and hallowed ground actually make them worth taking over drk unless you're doing speedkills where drk's higher dps makes it the optimal choice.

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Originally Posted by Faeon

Maybe they got some dev who is just like every job is shit except WAR lol! Your guess is as good as mine.

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Warbros bitched loud enough is all it was.

I wonder how much Path buff is, 20 potency or higher?

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

PLD main here and the argument 'but pld offers utility!!!' doesn't hold when you don't need it

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Cool, let's give pld ALL the utility and the highest dps. Totally balanced. You should be I'm the dev team with your perfect sense of how to make any tank comp viable. Fukn genius here.

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

but why couldn't it be Warrior for once :<

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Because it makes no sense? They are supposed to be the Berserker tank that mitigates through damage. The idea is Paladin has stronger mitigation options and actually "tanks" while Warrior plays almost like a DPS with cooldowns. Paladin still has better utility and on par mitigation. Frankly, it's Dark Knight that could come out lacking here.

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

You can't bring all defensive utility and nice dps to one tank.
But playerbase think all is about dps now. All the time.
Gordias bring this in the mind, but don't tell it was the case on A9s to A12s pls...
Now you won't change this bad mentality about tank dps now. and it make PLD to want equal dps instead of more defensive utility, because the first care of the playerbase is the dps, by the way, load of midcore savage raiders, think only about dps and put as a priority before the mecanics, it slow the progress a lot.
PLD is fine i think even after this little nerf, but how to change mind of the playerbase about dps. i can understand why PLD want dps so strongly.

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It isn't the playerbase but the game mechanics themselves. Mitigation and healing both have a threshold, rendering them useless passed a certain point. Damage, on the other hand, is infinite. You never don't want damage. Creator actually did more to encourage the DPS meta than Gordias ever did because it was tuned low enough people could more easily get away with pushing out higher numbers without worrying about mitigation. If I can survive everything in Deliverance, why would I stay in Defiance? It only hurts my own damage, which in turn, lowers the raid DPS. The mentality isn't bad. It's players who follow it religiously without first adjusting and developing their skill. My first tank clear in Savage saw me keep Grit on the entire fight in Mr. Target dummy extreme. (A9S). Even now, I'm only rotating in a few Slaying accessories as I level to get a feel for where I'll need to mitigate. Not that it matters since they're fixing that hopefully.

Put simply. Tank priorities are, in order:

Aggro management
Mitigation
Damage

When the first two come as easily as they do, we switch to optimizing our damage.

Damage output is always better than utility in ffxiv. Sure you can DV an aoe attack however that damage would of gotten healed up by a healer if the ability was not used. Having more defensive utility doesn't really do much in a game where to win you need to beat dps checks. After you outgear something all of PLDs mitigation and utility doesn't help you and when trying to beat it people want more dps so they can kill the boss faster which is the problem.

Tanks really should do about the same dps but play differently or have a different feel to them to avoid the we are just going to take the 2 tanks who do the most dps.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

Cool, let's give pld ALL the utility and the highest dps. Totally balanced. You should be I'm the dev team with your perfect sense of how to make any tank comp viable. Fukn genius here.

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I mean, that was the state of war in heavensward and nobody batted an eye. Storm's path debuff was straight busted. Throw is slashing, the best cooldowns (still the best, vengeance is the best mitigation cooldown bar none for time and effect, and holmgang is better than hallowed imo since you can use it 3-4 times a fight), and the highest damage and that was heavensward war and everyone was fine with it. They just said lolpld and went on their way. But when shoe was on the other foot for even a second, oh lord did they scream foul.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Midas a7s and a8s are probably good examples of fights where pld's extra physical mitigation, divine veil and hallowed ground actually make them worth taking over drk unless you're doing speedkills where drk's higher dps makes it the optimal choice.

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A8S is a tossup imo. Paladin made you a safer on late-phase tank busters (though you can probably just have warrior cheese them with Holmgang/all their shit) and lets you cheese land mines. Dark Knight let you neuter his AOEs, which are just as dangerous. A7S is similar where HG will let you cheese a couple tank busters but the real threat in that fight is actually Sizzlebeam and his AOE stuff. Divine Veil was wayyyyy too slow to make a difference vs DRK's int down/Reprisal. I did both these fights as paladin, but I think my group would have gotten them weeks earlier if I bit the bullet and played DRK again.

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Originally Posted by Poison_Rose

Unless they significantly lengthen the cast time, you should still be able to get 5 holy spirits in. You would just lose the ability to use ogcds between casts.

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I'm really hoping they just nerf the potency and don't fuck with the cast time because oGCDs isn't even the biggest loss of being forced into a 2s+ cast. It's movement. Even on easy shit like Susanoo, half of my Requiescat windows line up with mechanics. Also, that's a longer time for which you're unable to block.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

Well as someone who has done savage I would not expect for you to have that level of ignorance. Pld was out of the meta because of the meta itself not the class.

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Also this is from a couple pages back but it's kind of incorrect. Both the party composition problems and paladin's weakness were to blame. Remember that at the start of HW, TP was an issue, potencies were lower, Clemency had a longer cast time, Divine Veil had a longer cooldown, Cover was still useless, Shield Oath had a higher penalty, and I think even Shield Swipe was still a GCD. Dark Knight's weakness to physical was also much less than paladin's weakness to magic, and paladin kind of cut it close on cooldowns even as late as Alexander Prime (which was doable, but unpleasant, and DRK was still better in every way). Really their only advantages were HG and Sheltron, which was amazing against Living Liquid but very hard to time and also completely useless against Manipulator and a few other fights.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

Cool, let's give pld ALL the utility and the highest dps. Totally balanced. You should be I'm the dev team with your perfect sense of how to make any tank comp viable. Fukn genius here.

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where exactl ydo you see me saying pld should have the highest damage? I said WAR and DRK should deal the highest damage but if they scale pld for grp utility then pld needs something that gives the group a bit of damage boost because mitigation can only get you so far. PLD as invididual should not do more dps than a drk or war, but it should benefit the group dps somehow so that the deficit gets a bit evened out during let's say burst phases with a 5% dmg buff lasting for 20 seconds on every party member

what makes no sense is nerfing the pld's damage additionally to buffing DRK and WAR because if it falls behind too far in damage-utility, then it's only good for the first 3 weeks and i can put my pld back in the closet again and have to play fucking DARK KNIGHT again because else I'll be a burden to my team and that is far removed from balance as well

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Tanks really should do about the same dps but play differently or have a different feel to them to avoid the we are just going to take the 2 tanks who do the most dps.

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This only applies to speed kills. Even groups like Elysium were still rotating in Casters throughout Creator because people liked them better and they were both incredibly strong despite not being "meta". If Paladin remains competitive with the other tanks, most good players aren't going to care. It wasn't shunned in 3.x due to damage, but it lacked any mitigation against magic based damage and had no aoe to speak of. Therefore, Dark Knight was overwhelmingly superior in more fights.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Also this is from a couple pages back but it's kind of incorrect. Both the party composition problems and paladin's weakness were to blame.

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Pld had no way to effectively deal with magic damage, they do now. Tp was only an issue on bosses that have constant uptime like a7 and a9 but that was also fixed this tier. Yes I did leave that out of the op. More of an oversight than anything. but as someone who ran with a pld for all of Midas and up until a12 when we just couldn't justify having one anymore, I can safely say pld was not in the terrible place people though it was. Mitigation was a non-issue with forced tank swapps and the utility was great. my pld was out dpsing all but the 95th and up percentile drks so dps was alo not a real drawback. I think the issue right now is the same as it was back then, a bunch of people who are no where near being able top play their classes even close tho thier max potential, complaining about what their classes can or cant do do at when played near the maximum potential. Its dumb.

While I lobbied hard for Dark Knight changes, I did not want them doing this to PLD. Job was fine.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

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I'm not talking about what was fixed this tier. I'm talking about the reality of HW.

As someone who ran as a paladin let me say that Divine Veil was trash that had an awkward cooldown that didn't align with boss timers. Clemency was slow and people would usually die or get healed before you had a chance to do anything. Also, using it lowered your already poor damage. TP was a constant struggle even on fights with jumps. Shield Bash was a liability on Manipulator. Tempered Will was mediocre, Cover was useless, and paladin had zero AOE for the occasions that AOE actually happened. Dark Knight and Warrior both outclassed paladin in damage, utility, and defenses. Also, damage is always a consideration. How much utility does it take to make up for not skipping a phase? For eating an extra tank buster because the transition was slow? For needing assistance to deal with an add on time? This doesn't have much to do with tanks, but even in 2.x bringing higher DPS was way better than almost any amount of utility or defense you could bring.

Paladin was in a terrible place until pretty much 3.4, and even then it was just "kinda bad." Partially because of party compositions, partially because the entire expansion was designed to counter it, and partially because it was a shitty job that only had half of a working kit and poor damage. So let us stop laying the blame solely at the feet of the almighty meta.

I played Paladin though all of FFXIV and I really never switch main jobs ever. I level everything to level cap but I still play one main job. Paladin wasn't that good in alex due to so much magic damage that you could not do anything about. Still beat alex so yes it could be done but what it seemed like was that it really wasn't optimal because I was taking more damage and doing less.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

A8S is a tossup imo. Paladin made you a safer on late-phase tank busters (though you can probably just have warrior cheese them with Holmgang/all their shit) and lets you cheese land mines. Dark Knight let you neuter his AOEs, which are just as dangerous. A7S is similar where HG will let you cheese a couple tank busters but the real threat in that fight is actually Sizzlebeam and his AOE stuff. Divine Veil was wayyyyy too slow to make a difference vs DRK's int down/Reprisal. I did both these fights as paladin, but I think my group would have gotten them weeks earlier if I bit the bullet and played DRK again.

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My bad it was unclear but I was trying to say about pld being something to consider over drk since it also offers something useful, unlike in a9s-a11s where they offer little to nothing while lacking drk's aoe, int down as well as single target dps. Wasn't implying them to be better than drk.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I played Paladin though all of FFXIV and I really never switch main jobs ever. I level everything to level cap but I still play one main job. Paladin wasn't that good in alex due to so much magic damage that you could not do anything about. Still beat alex so yes it could be done but what it seemed like was that it really wasn't optimal because I was taking more damage and doing less.

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No one would deny that a4s and a12s are terribly designed encounters in terms of magic/physical damage balance. No fight should lean toward one type of damage that far, especially when we have a tank that's really good in physical mitigation and another that's really good in magic mitigation. That'd just make one tank really good and the other really bad for the fight. On a slightly unrelated note, while I liked thordan ex, I also think that the fight leaned too far toward physical damage.

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

what makes no sense is nerfing the pld's damage additionally to buffing DRK and WAR because if it falls behind too far in damage-utility, then it's only good for the first 3 weeks and i can put my pld back in the closet again and have to play fucking DARK KNIGHT again because else I'll be a burden to my team and that is far removed from balance as well

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It does benefit the geoup in a way no other tank can. That's the point. And no you are never gonna have to put your pld away again, everyone will still want them and I will personally still keep playing it. In no way is it even possible for it to be a button with it's not now. It going to lose a small amount of damage, damage that only matters if you are at the top end of the game because if you can't get close to the maximum possible dps than it doesn't matter, all tanks are equal in that skill range.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Divine Veil was trash that had an awkward cooldown that didn't align with boss timers. Clemency was slow and people would usually die or get healed before you had a chance to do anything. Also, using it lowered your already poor damage. TP was a constant struggle even on fights with jumps. Shield Bash was a liability on Manipulator. Tempered Will was mediocre, Cover was useless, and paladin had zero AOE for the occasions that AOE actually happened. Dark Knight and Warrior both outclassed paladin in damage, utility, and defenses. Also, damage is always a consideration. How much utility does it take to make up for not skipping a phase? For eating an extra tank buster because the transition was slow? For needing assistance to deal with an add on time? This doesn't have much to do with tanks, but even in 2.x bringing higher DPS was way better than almost any amount of utility or defense you could bring.
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Well thank god they fixed all those issues.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Also, damage is always a oconsideration. How much utility does it take to make up for not skipping a phase? For eating an extra tank buster because the transition was slow? For needing assistance to deal with an add on time? This doesn't have much to do with tanks, but even in 2.x bringing higher DPS was way better than almost any amount of utility or defense you could

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I'm going to say this again, it doesn't matter unless you are playing the tanks toward the highest end possible. if your not it's irrelevant, you couldn't make use of the dps possibilities even if it did 500 more damage. Pld is still in a great spot either way you look at it though, its fun, accessible will still do really good damage when played properly and has the best possible utility.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

No one would deny that a4s and a12s are terribly designed encounters in terms of magic/physical damage balance. No fight should lean toward one type of damage that far, especially when we have a tank that's really good in physical mitigation and another that's really good in magic mitigation. That'd just make one tank really good and the other really bad for the fight. On a slightly unrelated note, while I liked thordan ex, I also think that the fight leaned too far toward physical damage.

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I suspect they did that as a band-aid for Paladins who weren't exactly happy the Gordias tier was so magic centric.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

...has the best possible utility.

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GUESS WHAT BUDDY WE ARE ALL TALKING ABOUT HIGH-END there's no point in disscussing for normal content that stats matters nothing, all I see is you desperately trying to avoid the 1 fact that DMG is what matters, no matter how much pld can heal or mitigate that's what a healer class is for and when healers lock down dmg potencies and learn their fight guess what's gonna happen again if WAR gets an extra 300+ dps over paladin again and drk welcome again to your preferred tank spot I bet you would not mind that as you already had that spot very warmed up an entire expansion.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

GUESS

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I play all the tanks. My personal favorite is and is alwaus gonna be war. I have continued to play it even though it has been in a shit spot. I\\'m glad with the changes they are getting I still think drk needs more mitigation and I do love how pld feels to play right now and will be playing it for progression. At the same time I was never okay with how much damage it did either it needed a nerd or the others needed to come up. They did a little of both and its going to be the same as if they just needed one or boosted the other. Still all 3 are gonna be in a good spot.

So.. I'll ask again.. why are "some" ppl are going crazy about the pld nerf and talking about the meta while the current pld does 200+ more dps than war (talking about dps only) and drk is even below war? Can I get a sane pld who's not screaming or going crazy while trying to explain?

If I had to guess the cast time on holy spirit will go up to 3 seconds doubling the time it takes to cast. Guess we will find out what they actually do in 3 days.

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

So.. I'll ask again.. why are "some" ppl are going crazy about the pld nerf and talking about the meta while the current pld does 200+ more dps than war (talking about dps only) and drk is even below war? Can I get a sane pld who's not screaming or going crazy while trying to explain?

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we are not going crazy about the warrior / drk buffs, we stand behind them and they were needed
we are against an additional nerf to paladin with those buffs

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

So.. I'll ask again.. trying to explain?

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Because you are assuming that anyone in their right mind is saying that currently all tanks are balance, they are obviously not paladin currently has the highest dps and that's a fact, no one wants warrior to be this underpowered nor DRK WHICH is why we are glad they are getting buffed. What it's not right is nerfing pld but buffing them at the same time because we risk the same situation warrior is on right now but back again in heavenward style, with all the tank balance properly buff wise, there's no more party buff that offers more raid damage, the only factor left is personal dps and if we switch the spots now war gets buffed to be over 300+ dps over paladin guess who's gonna be once again preferred tank class for every single raid, right now what we need is the other 2 tanks up at the lvl of paladin and we've done it, we achieve tank balance. they all can mitigate and damage, extra utility tools won't kill one or the other along as the damage are fair. no one is going to pick a paladin over a warrior for clemency or a 15% raid shield that scholars and astro already can offer, I will be ok with war doing slightly more damage since they don't get a tank buster pt shield like paladin or DRK does but not so much extra that It will negate the other 2 utility.

also the main fuzz with this nerf is not the damage, I can atlas speak for myself that damage is the least of my concern but it's how the class feels, currently old feels complete, fun and powerful enough to feel than I'm not hitting wet noodles, the nerf is coming in the form of a slower cast time of HS which means we will not be able to properly use or mana, fit the same amount of holy spirit in the requiescats window and we will not be able to wage abilities in between hence making the class clunky more slow and fucks with the timing of the rotation and this is what bothers me I'd rather get a potency nerf than this.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Speak for yourself. I didn't roll a job with a two-handed weapon to be out-damaged by a sword-and-board, personally.

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Yet you're ok with being out damaged by a job that punches things? Or one using a katana which in the real world is almost exactly the same as European sword in function?

Square-Enix-sama, Please do not nerf Holy Spirit on Paladin. I love the idea of buffing the other tank jobs power.
However that combined with nerfs to paladin, would spell for another repeat of us being a Joke tank for yet another expansion.
Plan on instantly quitting PLD if Holy spirit is nerfed.

One additional suggestion I'd like to make for DRK is to increase plunge distance from 15yrd to 20yrd so it will be the same as all other gap closers.
Having so much fun playing PLD (my original class) please don't nerf it again.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Yet you're ok with being out damaged by a job that punches things? Or one using a katana which in the real world is almost exactly the same as European sword in function?

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Worse than a european sword, really. Far less versatile.

Seems they're just going to nerf pld and buff the others to make it the same situation as it was in HW. And PLDs don't complain as much as Warrs (just a different mentality of the players), so it's never going to get fixed then.
But PLD has raid-saver tier utility. So I'll still be playing it.

Utility that comes at the cost of DPS is not practical, but PLD has loads of practical utility, and by far the most. It costs them nothing to use Intervention and Divine Veil is still an easy to use mitigation tool for raid wide damage. Passage of Arms' place will be debatable because it really only is practical for phase transitions and we don't know what those will be like yet.

Meanwhile DRK only has a 10% HP shield that comes with a risk. It will however be able to be used on tank busters without risk. Nonetheless, it's about on par with Intervention. That being said, if we wanna be real here, PLD's Intervention is going to be OP as hell for v1.0.

WAR has literally zero utility.

the utility is pretty much useless and just a drop on a hot stone. divine veil has a fairly long cd and you will always have a healer with you that can shield anyway, and an extra shield on a topped-of party is worth nothing

Intervention eats up half our oath gauge which still builds fairly slow in shield oathand we need to sacrifice rampart or sentinel to make it actually worth something, + it's only reliably usefull if you are the ot because as mt, you'll most likely not have designated intervention target

the raids are designed to be cleared without this utility, so it really is optional and therefore, the best way to support your group is survive - which all tanks can do - and dish out damage, which other tanks can do better with next tuesday

as i said before, pld needs damage utility that is not tied to their direct damage output bu via a group buff that pushes the party's dps so they can make up for the deficit the pld brings to the party because group mitigation tools lose their effect the better gear you have and the more used you are to the content

you will only need a pld if:
A) Your healers are shit
B) Your raid group is undergeared
C) Your raid group is composed of idiots

Susi and Lak are not really dififcult but you can see it here as well. In the first 5 runs I had to shield Ukehi with PoA or DV, but after that our healers adjusted and it was unnecessary to do so, therefore my non-dmg based utility went out of the window

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

but why couldn't it be Warrior for once :<

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Dont know if you were there for 2.0. And I mean after the buff cuz the stigma sticks. Kinda like after Pld was buffed in 3.x the stigma stuck. Yes it was still "the worst" but it was no longer a straight up failure.

Anyways, it doesnt matter if your talking about the highest play which is fighting for world first or speedkills. Screw talking about those people cuz theyll switch to whichever gets it done the best no matter how small the buff is because thats how you play those types. Class balance only matters for that type in which gives the biggest benefits for next to all the players who attempt those in that style. Lets talk about us, the people who will try our hardest even though we aint gonna get WF. We dont know how big the damage gaps will be, prolly back like HW(NO calm down not that big) with War in lead (how they change shake it off will affect everything), and Drk being just slightly ahead of Pld not by that much. Pld will still be amazing for "midcore" or whatever you call people behind the others(no not the wait till echo or tons of guides). Saying their utility will be useless is a large understatement because they wont even be able to do the whole fights in dps mode after seeing it once like the others. The people who still try to play as optimal as they can will prolly lean on the utility even after more than a few kills(especially if you get shafted on gear alot). And for the record, even with full vit I dont see Drks TBN being amazing as an OT ability, if a single person is being targeted and is half healthish whats your 5k shield gonna do versus A.Benefic,Adlo, and even tetra/swift/presence cure 2+lolbenison.