The state of DPS and why I both love and hate RDM

I feel that contribution should be equal irrespective of class difficulty. I gravitate towards tough MMO classes and overcoming the challenge is it's own reward.

That said, I'm pretty miserable in having chosen SMN/SCH for 4.0, as both are clunky and a bit dull. Also, SMN quality of life for solo content has been considerably reduced by having zero pet heals (your coconut doesn't even heal them!).

The focus should be making all classes have a similar damage/utility aggregate ceiling and then focus on improving the enjoyment of each.

Just want to add that last I checked, outside of pvp, we are all on the same side. If RDM is doing more damage and performing better that so long as you are not in the top 1% world first static and are still getting invited to your FC/Statics runs then does it really matter if RDM is doing better? I think those of us here in America and Europe take things way to far sometimes. Does not mean there should not be fixes for BLM or SMN, but advocating a nerf to your fellow caster is not only disrespect to those who play said Job, but a disrespect to the programmers and designers who came up with that Job. Advocate fixes for Jobs. Don't advocate nerfs for Jobs that others are finding a lot of fun. Nerfing another job does not fix the issues that your job is having.

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Originally Posted by Draxxion

Just want to add that last I checked, outside of pvp, we are all on the same side. If RDM is doing more damage and performing better that so long as you are not in the top 1% world first static and are still getting invited to your FC/Statics runs then does it really matter if RDM is doing better? I think those of us here in America and Europe take things way to far sometimes. Does not mean there should not be fixes for BLM or SMN, but advocating a nerf to your fellow caster is not only disrespect to those who play said Job, but a disrespect to the programmers and designers who came up with that Job. Advocate fixes for Jobs. Don't advocate nerfs for Jobs that others are finding a lot of fun. Nerfing another job does not fix the issues that your job is having.

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Most of us don't want RDM nerfed. We just want the others brought up to their respective positions.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

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Is it honestly hard to understand that nerfing RDMs damage output isn't going to fix issues with any other class? It doesn't make them more attractive to play or bring along.

Comparing BRD utilities to RDM. BRD has a 15% DHit increase, a constant 2% Crit buff, AoE TP and MP regen, Instant and preplaceable Esuna, Physical or Magical resistance or an increase to max HP, 20% increase to healing on a target and intermittent 3% damage increase for the entire raid.

Let's see what RDM has, a passable emergency heal and a raise and an averaged out 6% damage increase for 20 seconds. RDM is not pretty much BRD but with 500 extra DPS, 2/3rds of our utility costs DPS and is higher maintenance than BRD support.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

Most of us don't want RDM nerfed. We just want the others brought up to their respective positions.

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Which is all I was getting at with my post. I want to see BLM and SMN doing well as well. But, be careful when making comparisons as it can come off as advocating for nerfs.

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Originally Posted by Crewman

See I haven't had a problem with BLM losing it's Blizzard/Fire IV because transpose has a short enough cooldown to keep at least 1 shard active. Eventually it will fall off, but you can take measures to prevent it a little bit. Yeah it's work, but I typically can keep it up long enough for Enochian to reset it's cooldown in case I need to start over.

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It's still a DPS loss though if you transpose. You'll have to stay in Umbral Ice longer to get enough mana and then cast F3 at practically full cast time.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Not sure what you're getting at here, Embolden increases physical damage dealt by party members that receive the buff.

Are you saying that you raid with 6 other players that benefit from an increase in physical damage? (2 tanks, 3 melee/mch/brd, and an auto-attacking healer?)

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The RDM gets buffed 1

Both tanks 2

The other 3 dps 3

Thats 6/8

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

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Lets be realistic: it will be much more feasible for them to take RDM down a peg than to completely fix the other casters. At the same time, in a non competitive game nerfs don't make sense.

So let me change the context. Imagine they buffed every class BUT RDM and NIN. These classes were buffed to the point that now NIN and RDM are like DRG and MCH. Tell me, what would be the tone of these threads instead? Now this is a rhetorical question, because the answer is obvious. In any threads addressing the balance of RDM and SAM, people seem to lose their minds trying to fanatically defend the class. Could you imagine the sort of outrage it would elicit if these classes weren't good relative to the others despite remaining well designed? Probably not from NIN, because unironically these guys are the quietest crowd ever but from RDM, whew.

SAM and RDM classes obviously have a layer of refinement and polish that some of the others don't seem to have. Again, it's not rocket science to figure out why but nevertheless these classes are good relative to the others and that's why that 'Nerf SAM' thread got as popular as it did (at this point though its just people offering their thoughts on the situation with the melee DPS while some SAM mains cry 'don't touch my class').

Anyway the issue with utility is that it contains far more moving parts and the calculations might as well be approximations. Like you can see a samurai doing susano 5 times and doing from 4100 to 4400 dps. This is easily quantifiable and digestible. On the other hand, trying to work out how much damage utility is contributing pretty much isn't possible. You can say something like having a normal balance uptime of 50% is just like a 10% DPS contribution but then you have to adjust for variance that is created when %s are stacked or for crits and Dhits. Even if BRD provides roughly double the raid dps RDM provides, its much easier to see that RDM does 500 more dps than BRD on average.

Do not underestimate the power of your cure and raise. Especially the raise. In an ideal world, you do not want to use these as it gimps you however RDM has the power to actually save runs even if it comes at the cost of their dps. On the other hand BRD cannot do that anymore (Rip LB3 heal). It might be more consistent and also helps the party without needing it to be an emergency but that doesn't mean that the raise and cure isn't good for what it is.

What you say doesn't change the fact that RDM is better than its counterparts in every way. Not only a more refined playstyle but performs better in fights and helps the party more. Hell, I'd say RDM is better than 7/9 in the entire role. There may always be a strongest and weakest but its the low risk, high reward that is bothering me. Ideally the risk should be at least vaguely congruent with the reward. This doesn't only mean ease of use but ease of operation in content that actually matters (basically everything that isn't a dummy).

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

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Nerfing RDMs damage surely is feasible, but it's the lazy mans way to "fix" things. It's like pulling weeds without getting the roots out, the problem is still underlying and you'll just have to pull the tops off again and again. I'll say it again because for some reason it isn't making it through, but nerfing RDMs output doesn't fix the other classes in any way. DRG and SMN will still have an overly long buildup and lesser utility, BLM will still not have an appropriate skill floor or ceiling. Ease of use should not equal less damage, complexity should increase the ceiling and to some extent the floor of that class not reduce the floor and ceiling of other classes because some people don't want to play Liszt's Campanella on their keyboards. It's a repetitive cycle that doesn't work, oh this class is doing too well in comparison let's nerf it, then that class doesn't get picked, oh no looks like the other classes are doing too well are in comparison let's just nerf them too.

If RDM and SAM have more refined playstyles you should be arguing for more refined playstyles to the other classes, not arguing "NERF THIS IT WORKS BETTER THAN ME WITHOUT GIVING THE PLAYER A HEADACHE"

I'd argue Black Mage is as refined as it gets. There's a certain simplicity to being a cannon, and Black Mage is a smooth and natural learning experience.

"Fire means damage, ice means recovery." <= Early levels.

"Transposing is meant as an emergency...ooooh." <= When you get Fire3/Blizz3

"Thunder enables Thundercloud, the single highest potency ability in the game..." <= Until Iaijutsu 3. Jerks.

"Positioning is key." <= Level 50 dungeons and trials

Much like every job, the progression stair leading to what we have now is readily apparent, and Black Mage wasn't changed that much with Stormblood. Black Mage is as refined as it gets. The issue is that currently the top of that stepping stone sees only very minor rewards to the rung that came before. In this regard, the 'lazy man' approach of simply tweaking numbers is an appropriate response.

I'd prefer something more interesting, but more interesting is usually what occurs at expansions so...

You know, they whined about 2.x BLM not being complex enough for its dmg and just plain BOOOORING, but I absolutely loved it though it was way more fun before the infinite flare nerf. Now theyre whining its too complex, and doesnt has enough damage. Who are these people and why camt they make up their mind?

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Who are these people and why camt tjeu ,ale i[ tjeor ,omd?

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Raubahn just assassinated ADVSS.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

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And what it seems you aren't understanding is that I'm not discussing classes play styles right now, I'm discuss performance. At the end of the day even if these classes aren't perfect ATM, the expansion just released so there is very little hope for a massive overhaul. But not only do these classes play poorly, they also don't perform.

You keep using the argument that the other classes are too difficult to play, that isn't RDMs fault and RDM doing less damage won't fix that. While that might be true, it will also stop players from quitting their jobs to jump on the bandwagon to play the EZmode powerhouse that doesn't care about fight mechanics. At the end of the day, even if DRG and SMN are clunky, if they rewarded the effort appropriately there would be far less complaints about the class. 3.0 DRG wasn't the best to play, and yet complaints were fairly minimal because the class was good. It required skill to get the most out of the class.


Remember: everything is relative. Performance is relative, utility is relative. It is just human nature to be pissed off that they can get ice cream, but you can't. It doesn't necessarily mean that dragging others down is the best course of action no. But even then I provided a hypothetical yet you still decided to harp on the point about other classes sucking to play. As I said, people will find a way to optimize classes even if they require jumping over hurdles if they get rewarded for it, which I think everyone can agree on.

At least, we will see on Tuesday what the dev team think.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Raubahn just assassinated ADVSS.

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LOL made me spit my drink out thank you! post got editted, kinda wished i left it alone now

sderiously, why does enochian even still exist? I thought they were getting rid of button bloat.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

You know, they whined about 2.x BLM not being complex enough for its dmg and just plain BOOOORING, but I absolutely loved it though it was way more fun before the infinite flare nerf. Now theyre whining its too complex, and doesnt has enough damage. Who are these people and why camt they make up their mind?
(...)
sderiously, why does enochian even still exist? I thought they were getting rid of button bloat.

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I don't think the majority of BLMs are complaining that it's too complex.
They're complaining the hardest rotation doesn't do more damage than the easier one (and it doesn't do enough damage overall).

Enochian exists because of Foul, and to add depth (you can't just mindlessly spam spells, you need to make meaningful decisions of AF/UI upkeep VS higher pps spells).
I actually quite love Enochian (I did like its previous iteration better, though).

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

whatever

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Then make it so everyone can get the ice cream, don't just take it away from other people or make it more expensive for the people that already have it. I've already said this exact thing. You don't seem understand that play style flows (or should flow) directly into performance, how a class plays directly influences its performance overall. Which is why I say and keep saying that nerfing RDM isn't going to make DRG, SMN, MCH etc. more fun to play or give proper returns it's just going to result in a giant circle of pissed off people.

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Originally Posted by jamvng

It's still a DPS loss though if you transpose. You'll have to stay in Umbral Ice longer to get enough mana and then cast F3 at practically full cast time.

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You are right it is. It's a timing game for me really. As long as I have swiftcast ready to instantly regain my 3 shards with Fire 3 I will be okay, without that there is a small drop off. if you really screw that up it's even worse.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Then make it so everyone can get the ice cream, don't just take it away from other people or make it more expensive for the people that already have it. I've already said this exact thing.

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i do agree that some class/job being more complex is not other classes/jobs fault, nerfing other jobs/classes will not change a thing
but as a RDM my main caster, i feel RDM could bring down a bit in dmg output
just using the FFlog statistic the top 1%
i believe involving player skill in balance is a very poor choice, but as a reference point i have no choice but use the top 1 percentile in theory, they should be around similar if not equal skill level
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15...unt&dataset=99
i do feel RDM should be on around NIN output level, as they both provide more than just personal output but also great team support
BLM is not far behind RDM, but being a caster excel at both single target and AOE, but bring little support to the team they should be slightly higher than RDM and NIN but lower than SAM

in other word, i feel BLM output is about right level might be a very slight boost e.g. blizzard IV and Fire IV back to original potency
what BLM need probably is some change/buff to help ease with mechanics, I personally prefer the old Enochian way more than current one, but there are no point turning back, i believe slight buff on timer/ Mana regen with Umbral Ice would probably make a lot of different on BLM

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

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My goodness, I will tirelessly repeat this until the end of time if I must x)
Please. Do not. Use. The 99% percentile.
Please. These are padded runs where "which AST drew more balances at the right time" decides who gets to stay and is bumped down.
Further, there are very few parses on the 99% percentile, so the results have extremely limited statistical validity.

And how are you arguing that "involving player skill in balance is a bad idea" and then grab a bunch of parses which likely feature some of the absolute best players x)?
(And why would it be "slightly" higher than NIN/RDM? The reasons that justify SAM's high personal dps apply to BLM also...)

I feel like NIN always "gets away" in these discussions. This job has a 1.7% raid damage boost (technically more, due to multiplicative stacking of buffs and if TA is timed with openers and stuff), multiple aggro tools (that can further boost the damage of tanks) and the tasty slashing debuff to buff PLD+DRK comps. NIN should be the lowest of all dpsers except maybe BRD (which has slightly more utility), yet somehow it's fine if it's capable of dishing out more personal dps than half of the dps jobs.
SE please give SMN their version of TA. I want more SMNs in my parties. End this NIN monopoly.

Noooononono, top 1 percentile is the most skewed results you're going to get. Use the 75th to 90th percentile at max, really. The results in this case are similar, but it's bad form to use what is well known as nothing but padded results to mark your data.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

My goodness, I will tirelessly repeat this until the end of time if I must x)
Do not. Use. The 99% percentile.
Please. These are padded runs where "which AST drew more balances at the right time" decides who gets to stay and is bumped down.
Further, there are very few parses on the 99% percentile, so the results have extremely limited validity.

And how are you arguing that "involving player skill in balance is a bad idea" and then grab a bunch of parses which likely feature some of the absolute best players x)?

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Was gonna reference Galvuu in the initial post, but decided against because I couldn't find her quote. Here's one that ninja'd me entirely :D

The difference will come from players learning the ins and outs of fights and learning what they can abuse, while something like the RDM has minimal room to go up even if they do learn everything about a particular encounter. Again, even if you nerfed RDM they will still be equal if not higher than the average player playing the most difficult job. For example bard is doing quite well in ex susano due to being able to move freely at all times, even with their amount of utility (which greatly outshines RDMs).

Even if you lowered RDM to 4k dps from 4.5k and BLM is up to 4.5k you'll still have fights where BLM only does 4k due to heavy movement while the RDM also manages 3.8-4k due to being punished less. These types of threads will then change to the real issue of "these jobs are punished too much to pull off their their maximum" which is the conversation I believe we should be having anyway.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

My goodness, I will tirelessly repeat this until the end of time if I must x)
Please. Do not. Use. The 99% percentile.
Please. These are padded runs where "which AST drew more balances at the right time" decides who gets to stay and is bumped down.
Further, there are very few parses on the 99% percentile, so the results have extremely limited statistical validity.

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using 1 % because i am trying to minimize the skill level difference
if those 1% are being setup, the lower % would have to involve players skill level which is a huge variant that cannot truly reflect jobs efficiency
then we need a better tool that FFlogs

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

And how are you arguing that "involving player skill in balance is a bad idea" and then grab a bunch of parses which likely feature some of the absolute best players x)?

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like the previous answer, I do not want to use FFlogs as a tool for comparing jobs/class effectiveness, but we have no better tool than that at the moment
a job could be complex but do extremely good dmg if use right, and another job can be easy but no matter how good a player are the dmg is low
and using 1%, i m assuming they they equally skilled, thus, pulling almost the best of each class, this should give the most pure data of a jobs, but if those data are padded like you said, the whole FFlog become not very useful, we could use a 5% or even larger, but this would also mean the players skill will starting to skew the data more.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

(And why would it be "slightly" higher than NIN/RDM? The reasons that justify SAM's high personal dps apply to BLM also...)

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Caster cross role skill have better choice for team support and BLM AOE ability is not something SAM could match, BLM should be between SAM and MNK, despite it is very likely dev would use 8-man raid as a reference, but i prefer the balance not only around Full party raid but also dungeon, trial, and alliance raid

just a general idea how i feel balance should be achieve from, taking away the human factor, assuming all jobs performing at the max efficiency at given mechanics, and taken all the thing each jobs could offer in all type of game play

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Originally Posted by Pidooma

Even if you lowered RDM to 4k dps from 4.5k and BLM is up to 4.5k you'll still have fights where BLM only does 4k due to heavy movement while the RDM also manages 3.8-4k due to being punished less. These types of threads will then change to the real issue of "these jobs are punished too much to pull off their their maximum" which is the conversation I believe we should be having anyway.

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that's what i am trying to say
the potency need fine tuning for sure, but it is not the biggest issue, and it would not help the balance much
we could buff BLM to a level higher their damage than SAM still would see some BLM struggle, the timer are tight, the rotation have little room of mistake are the bigger issue that could not be fix just buffing BLM dmg or nerfing RDM dmg

I think BLMs need to be careful playing this "My rotation is more complex thus should do more damage than yours" card. Not only is it a petty and elitist argument but by their own logic, SMNs should be getting the buffs, not them.

Whatever complexities BLMs think they have isn't even on the same page as what SMN have to manage.

Used to believe Sam and Rdm needed nerfed,.. but looking back now, Smn and Blm need buffs..

it's OK for one caster to be "easy", but than smn should do as much if not more damage.. and Blm a lot more damage

(while Sam doesn't a nerf, it could use something new, that punishes a bit more)

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Originally Posted by Amulrei

I think BLMs need to be careful playing this "My rotation is more complex thus should do more damage than yours" card. Not only is it a petty and elitist argument but by their own logic, SMNs should be getting the buffs, not them.

Whatever complexities BLMs think they have isn't even on the same page as what SMN have to manage.

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rotation difficulty smn>blm
end raid difficulty blm>>smn

The playstyle of RDM is awesome and I want it kept exactly as it is. Raise, cure, mobility and party buff included. However I have noticed that it feels quite powerful compared to it's counterparts and I think it's because they can buff other jobs on top of having decent damage of their own. The best way to handle it IMO would be to buff the damage of SMN and give them more utility and nerf the damage of RDM or Embolden to the point where RDM+Embolden contributes as much as BLM in a movement-heavy fight. If that is already the case then no nerfs are needed.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

BLM AOE ability is not something SAM could match, BLM should be between SAM and MNK, despite it is very likely dev would use 8-man raid as a reference, but i prefer the balance not only around Full party raid but also dungeon, trial, and alliance raid

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AoE damage might be nice to have, but is 100% irrelavent when it comes to balancing. The only content that matters in this game is single target content.

I don't think RDM needs nerfs, but it needs to be at the bottom of the pile when it comes to personal DPS. It has too much utility and it's not punished at all by hardly any mechanics.
The DPS hierarchy should be BLM > SMN > RDM. BLM should be SAM levels of strong DPS because all it brings is DPS.
To deny that RDM shouldn't be top of the pile in DPS with all of the utility it brings is just pure stupidity.

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Originally Posted by Core1019

AoE damage might be nice to have, but is 100% irrelavent when it comes to balancing. The only content that matters in this game is single target content.

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it should be relevant, PVE is not only full party raid, it is also light party dungeon and alliance raid, should even extend to FATE or outside dungeon content
and balance should be around all of them not just fighting boss after boss
it is already 4.0 in FFXIV, we should see or in better word Dev should have provide high tier end game content not just focus on single target boss fight after boss fight, more type of high tier end game content should be introduce or these situation will be over and over again

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Originally Posted by Amulrei

I think BLMs need to be careful playing this "My rotation is more complex thus should do more damage than yours" card. Not only is it a petty and elitist argument but by their own logic, SMNs should be getting the buffs, not them.

Whatever complexities BLMs think they have isn't even on the same page as what SMN have to manage.

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You see, you're almost exactly right I think. BLM really isn't hard to play on an average level, and it's already in a very, very nice place dps-wise. The thing is, you have to play the job at such a high level just to be able to compare a similarly geared RDM who gets to out all of their damage punishment-free regardless of fight or circumstances.

The same goes for SMN, it's in quite a good place dps-wise as well, as long as you play like a god. Now look at RDM, how do you play RDM like a god? You don't, because it's laughably easy. Just press all of your buttons on cooldown and try not to forget Manafication.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

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Use the 90%. Those are very skilled players. The top 5% are composed of the absolute best players and padded parses.
Neither should have much weight- you should balance for good, competent players (75%~90%), but it's not realistic to balance a job for that 1% that plays them amazingly well.

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Originally Posted by Amulrei

I think BLMs need to be careful playing this "My rotation is more complex thus should do more damage than yours" card. Not only is it a petty and elitist argument but by their own logic, SMNs should be getting the buffs, not them.

Whatever complexities BLMs think they have isn't even on the same page as what SMN have to manage.

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The issue is primarily with bringing no utility (and thus needing a lot of personal dps to be competitive) and that the hardest-to-execute rotation in a hard-to-execute job isn't the most rewarding.
Either way, both should be getting buffs. People speak as if buffs are necessarily mutually exclusive. 4 jobs need adjustments right now. I've slowly creeping up on posts requesting SMN single target and aoe buffs and giving them stronger utility (give them trick attaaack).

Off-topic, but I'm about to start levelling SMN, so I've been chewing on Eirene's document, and it strikes me that the jobs are actually incredibly similar on a deep level now (which I didn't think to be the case for HW).
Perhaps because I play quite a bit more BLM and perhaps my opinion will change when I get SMN to 70 and raid, but for what I've studied, SMN seems like it'll be more punishing and harder to execute though.
But then again, I need to play both jobs at 70 extensively to have a clear opinion- and the same goes to you, since you haven't struggled with the 4.0 rotation yourself in a mechanically intensive fight ;)

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

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I've been saying this the entire time and people just retort "buh rdm being weekur don't make otherclasses funner"

That isn't the point. The point is whether they nerf rdm or buff the other 2 classes, right now rdms relative position compared to the other dps, let alone other casters is too high for how forgiving it is and how little mechanics actually effect it's output. It should realistically be where DRG currently is or even lower relative to the other classes.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

I've been saying this the entire time and people just retort "buh rdm being weekur don't make otherclasses funner"

That isn't the point. The point is whether they nerf rdm or buff the other 2 classes, right now rdms relative position compared to the other dps, let alone other casters is too high for how forgiving it is and how little mechanics actually effect it's output. It should realistically be where DRG currently is or even lower relative to the other classes.

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The fact of the matter is, most people don't want RDM to change, because they know they couldn't perform as well on the other classes.
Which I'd like to point out, is actually fine.

It's completely fine to have easier classes to play. But having easier classes do the most DPS, be the least punishable and have the most utility is simply broken. For many people fun factor is to do with the DPS the class pulls, which is why I disagree with their claim that nerfing RDM will not make the other classes more played. If MCH became the top ranged DPS with more utility than BRD, you bet your ass that more people will play it. Will it be the most played class/ No.

But I digress, that isn't even the point.
If you look at the caster line up, their DPS and their utilities, anyone with an ounce of sense would see that RDM is simply too high up in the chain for what it brings. Sadly, some people don't see it as that.

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Originally Posted by Amulrei

I think BLMs need to be careful playing this "My rotation is more complex thus should do more damage than yours" card. Not only is it a petty and elitist argument but by their own logic, SMNs should be getting the buffs, not them.

Whatever complexities BLMs think they have isn't even on the same page as what SMN have to manage.

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See I disagree with one point there.
The rotation of a BLM is straightforward and easy. I will not disagree with that. But the rotation isn't what makes the BLM difficult to play per se. It's the knowledge and experience of the fights it needs, compared to other classes.
Much like the SCH I would argue.

Learning the SMN rotation can be a pain. But a rotation is just down to muscle memory, a month or so of playing it (weeks for others) and it becomes simply second nature if your adept enough. You can go into a new fight, and just with feeling pull respectable DPS. That doesn't really work with a BLM, where moving once means 3/4 seconds of DPS gone to waste, or buffs gone to waste.

Not that SMN isn't difficult, it is. But an adept player will be able to pick up SMN quicker in a new raid setting than they would a BLM.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

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(Look at me going completely off-topic)
Hmmm... if you want to play either job perfectly, they both have a very heavy emphasis on cd planning. Like, both jobs will lose chunks of dps over the course of a fight if your cd planning isn't perfect.
I find SMN harder to learn fully than BLM, too, even if BLM tends to have more punitive micro-decision making (where to put what proc, how to change the order of spells to account for mechanics, using 3.X or 4.0 rotation)...
Still learning new SMN tho. It seems to be quite an interesting job! The clunky pet response is very annoying, and it's a shame they gutted the dots (dot upkeep is pretty cool imho), but it still has loads of nooks and crannies to squeeze optimisation into.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

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I don't deny SMN is hard to play, I used to play one myself. It has a lot to it that's for certain.
They both take different skill sets to play, with SMN it's more reactionary and with BLM it's all about thinking 1 minute ahead at all times.
Funny thing is that RDM has none of these problems.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

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Let me ask you this then, how do you feel about it visually? Granted, I am still leveling mine up(at 68 atm), but I am extremely bored with it unlike I was with BLM and RDM. Maybe it's because the ramp up time and visuals aren't on par with the other casters, but once I get it to 70. I don't think I will be playing it that much.

If you can't tell already, visuals are big enjoyment factor for me in MMOs which is why I can't play most melee in this game. Too boring visuals.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

I've been saying this the entire time and people just retort "buh rdm being weekur don't make otherclasses funner"

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Are you always this condescending? Nothing I said implied RDM should be at the top of the charts. Everything I said made the point that if you nerf RDM it won't fix the problems placing the other classes at their positions in relation to RDM. There's nothing wrong with RDM having high damage that gets balanced out with use of raises or heals. There IS something wrong with the other classes prioritizing damage and not getting the payoff they deserve and so we return to the crux of the issue that you don't seem to be gleaning: Fixing the output of the other classes should take priority over nerfing the output of one but you seem to be asking for both. And before you start being senseless and lacking understanding of what I just typed, just comparing relative output as it is now is illogical since it's obvious there are more underlying issues than just output/performance/whatever word you want to use this time to say that I'm not getting it. Considering you have 0 casters at 70, you don't have an accurate position aside from anecdotal evidence as to how much RDM is affected by mechanics, it's lesser sure, but to say it's 0 is inane.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

Let me ask you this then, how do you feel about it ...

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I am also an x-smn myself and though I can\\'t answer for Galvuu, I can say that outside of Ruin 3, Miasma 3, Deathflare, and Bahamut it isn\\'t that visually amazing. I find RDM more visually appealing because of all the physical movement your character does and the visual effects of the weapon RDM uses. SMN has some interesting graphics models this time for the weapons, but I have always felt the book rather limiting design wise. RDM can have many more sword and vocus designs be comparison.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

cutman

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My problem is the fact people keep making it so personal. It is frustrating when trying to discuss the balance of classes when at the mere implication that their class is good they think that everyone is advocating for nerfs. I already said twice that its not about nerfing RDM, but changing its position relative to other classes, in the hierarchy if you will. And as other have said, performance/output/whatever is the most important part, as it is the largest dictator of whether a class is played or not. If DRG/SMN were where NIN/RDM were now, you'll bet your ass people would be playing that and the complains would be half of what they are now. Yes, these classes do have operational issues that do contribute a bit to the fact that they aren't doing spectacular damage but these are minor; just mere potency fixes could drastically reduce the complaints these classes have.

Note, I do not just want potency fixes however I want above all for these classes to not to suck ass ontop of feeling bad to play. The fact that I don't have a caster doesn't invalidate what I say if pretty much 99% of people say the same thing, which I believe is beyond reasonable doubt. I have also seen the class played and explained. I never said it isn't effected by mechanics at all, in my last post I said how little its affected but no point arguing semantics.