BLM should be the SAM of casters.

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Originally Posted by Arutan

I do the same with my RDM. On normal spell. I was main BLM 'til StormBlood, and RDM charmed me with the release. It has a greater moving ability with same amount of DPS if not greater, now I just can't play BLM back, it just feel so slow everytime and doesn't even deal more damages. Plus with all those new fight asking to move a lot it's a pain in the a**. IMO BLM is gonna die if he's not up.

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You don't do 28k on red mage.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

I would be fine w/ Blm doing Sam damage on STs if they nerfed their AoE to Samurais as well and gave amn the AoE king title.

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Maybe they should get rid of your slashing debuff, then yes.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Goad, Feint, Leg Sweep. More or less similar utility as a caster.

Slashing debuff, If you don't have WAR and NIN in a party it's utility. Stop denying the fact, that SAM doesn't bring anything. It CAN bring more utility than BLM in some compositions. BLM will NEVER bring utility, NEVER.

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Sure lets not have BLMs bring along Mana Shift to help keep the healers mana up, or Apoctastasis where they can throw it on the tank to help them get through magic TBs like Exdeath's Thunder 3.

The best SAM can bring besides a slash debuff is Goad, which is only useful in AoE situations if you have another big TP consumer in the party, or feint which has a questionable influence on damage but BLMs get Addle as their version. So technically BLMs do bring as much if not more useful utility then SAM does. Especially since Leg Sweep is also useless on the vast majority of bosses.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

You don't do 28k on red mage.

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Was waiting for someone to call out this blatant lie.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Sure lets not have BLMs bring along Mana Shift to help keep the healers mana up, or Apoctastasis where they can throw it on the tank to help them get through magic TBs like Exdeath's Thunder 3.

The best SAM can bring besides a slash debuff is Goad, which is only useful in AoE situations if you have another big TP consumer in the party, or feint which has a questionable influence on damage but BLMs get Addle as their version. So technically BLMs do bring as much if not more useful utility then SAM does. Especially since Leg Sweep is also useless on the vast majority of bosses.

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You are so brave, thanks for sharing your story.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Maybe they should get rid of your slashing debuff, then yes.

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Then no, also amn was supposed to be Smn.

Slashing debuff for Sam is barely raid utility. Regardless of what anyone says, there are two other jobs with that same ability and only Drk and Pld benefit off if it. If you only have one one or the other other, it barely adds anything. Nin/ war/ sam can put it up for themselves.

I as a Sam can't kill a large group of mobs as quickly as blm... melee should be able to do that. It's not fair that casters can and melee can't. (I don't really care, honestly.)

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Then no, also amn was supposed to be Smn.

Slashing debuff for Sam is barely raid utility. Regardless of what anyone says, there are two other jobs with that same ability and only Drk and Pld benefit off if it. If you only have one one or the other other, it barely adds anything. Nin/ war/ sam can put it up for themselves.

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Clap clap, finally you get it. Tell me, how many times is BLM going to buff someone in the party in any kind of composition. I'll wait as I see you need time.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Clap clap, finally you get it. Tell me, how many times is BLM going to buff someone in the party in any kind of composition. I'll wait as I see you need time.

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Personally, no times. But sure does help the group with adds faster than any melee can.

You know... that may be a form of group utility...

Maybe SE should design more fights with adds?

In that case, I would not do as much damage as a blm, I (on any of my melee) want to do as much AoE damage as a blm/Smn. There is an imbalance here that SE needs to address. /sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Clap clap, finally you get it. Tell me, how many times is BLM going to buff someone in the party in any kind of composition. I'll wait as I see you need time.

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I see BLMs mana shift to healers and cast Apocstastasis on people more often then SAMs use well...

... anything that would qualify as utility.

Be it leveling or raid content.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

I see BLMs mana shift to healers and cast Apocstastasis on people more often then SAMs use well...

... anything that would qualify as utility.

Be it leveling or raid content.

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You know who else gets mana shift, apocostastsis, and addle along with an instant revive, heal, and buff. RDMs. You know what they are also casters who do more damage then BLM because of their mobility. What a shocker that is! Who knew.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

You don't do 28k on red mage.

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Maybe not in a single spell (which means nothing) but you do bring consistently more Party DPS over the course of a fight with all the mobility and utility RDM has.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

You know who else gets mana shift, apocostastsis, and addle along with an instant revive, heal, and buff. RDMs. You know what they are also casters who do more damage then BLM because of their mobility. What a shocker that is! Who knew.

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Gasp! Who knew that!?

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

You know who else gets mana shift, apocostastsis, and addle along with an instant revive, heal, and buff. RDMs. You know what they are also casters who do more damage then BLM because of their mobility. What a shocker that is! Who knew.

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And yet based on what the BLMs I know have been saying they still keep up with RDMs for the most part in DPS. I have also not seen RDMs replace BLMs, nor have I seen groups reject BLMs for RDMs.

Oh and between Aetherial Manipulation (30 sec) and Between the Lines (3 sec) BLM technically have roughly as much mobility (at least to and from their ley lines) as RDM as their respective abilities have a longer cooldown (Corps is 40, Displacement 35) them BLM ones do. RDMs are just built to need to use their abilities in order to make use of their burst which is why their numbers are higher then BLMs. BLMs however are not required to move about, unless it is to dodge an AoE.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

BLMs however are not required to move about, unless it is to dodge an AoE.

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No BLM has been replaced yet because the savage content is not here yet. Aetherial Manipulation does not help us increase our dps up time. It just makes dodging AOEs easier. Ley lines is down most of the fight because of it's long Cd making it not as useful as you make it out to be. For the bolded part, you know SE loves to add a ton of AOEs in fights, so we basically almost always moving which fucks over our dps which is why we are requesting a potency buff.

Whether you want to admit it or not, BLM needs some serious buffs because we should not be equal or losing to RDMs in fights.

No way blm has as much mobility even with Aetherial manipulation and Between the lines, blm is the job that has the least mobility out of all jobs and is punished the most.
Playing on Red Mage however feels very much like Bard was back in 2.0 meaning you really not affected by mechanics overly much.
I agree 100% with Ferrasper

A BLM who is not mobile, punished for any movement, with less "utility" and a subjectively harder/more delicate rotation should not be doing THE SAME DPS as an RDM who is mobile for half of their spells (Thanks dual cast), a raise, a heal and a party wide melee buff.

The argument this thread and many other threads are trying to make is that BLM's should have nearly the same if not more DPS than a RDM because of the RDM's positive traits

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Oh and between Aetherial Manipulation (30 sec) and Between the Lines (3 sec) BLM technically have roughly as much mobility

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If you use the dictionary definition of mobility, then you're right. But that's not what everyone is talking about when they say mobility.

If you have to interrupt a cast to move, that's not mobility. BLM average spell cast time is greater than the GCD. Every other caster, especially RDM, has an average cast time well under the GCD. When does a RDM use a spell with a full GCD cast time?

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Originally Posted by Maero

No way blm has as much mobility even with Aetherial manipulation and Between the lines, blm is the job that has the least mobility out of all jobs and is punished the most.
Playing on Red Mage however feels very much like Bard was back in 2.0 meaning you really not affected by mechanics overly much.
I agree 100% with Ferrasper

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Funny you mention 2.0 bard, because RDM feels more like a fully realized 3.0 bard in its mobility.

I always thought of BLM as an atomic bomb with the casing made out of brittle glass. When the beast is not getting hit it should consume whole planets with destruction.

But if a twig knicks it, it shatters. Risk and Reward.

I can't move fast or move around as much, so you better stop me from moving or kill me quick or it's game over for you.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

You don't do 28k on red mage.

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Technically, you can. It however needs a critical direct hit while under the effect of Embolden and other dmg buffs such as AST's balance while all planets align and the sacrifice of a virgin is done. And it only happens once on finisher that needs to be charged over time, not a constant combo nor hit. Using this in a dps argument is stupid.

https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/...LG6V99d6IQ.png

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

You know who else gets mana shift, apocostastsis, and addle along with an instant revive, heal, and buff. RDMs. You know what they are also casters who do more damage then BLM because of their mobility. What a shocker that is! Who knew.

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Most of the arguing in the last couple pages was whether or not BLM should do more DPS than SAM. I don't see many people that don't agree BLM and SMN should be turned up or RDM should have one of their facets(damage/utility/support) turned down.

As for RDM utility, it's not as good as people want to make it look. Yes, it's an utility after all, however it's only physical damage to party members, useless for your mages if you have any in the group, 10% being initial potency and decreasing every few secs. It only actually counts for the first hits of the opening rotations, not even a full combo. Not an excuse for the lack of BLM dps compared to their rotation and utility, but just pointing that out for anyone who keeps using the rdm high dps and utility argument, and a RDM should NEVER cast vercure. Verraise would only count as decent utility if you had the scenario of a lot of raises needed, which then hurt your dps, not only for the loss of time, but also the MP cost. On a decent scenario, no one, or just a couple of members would die, which can be taken care of by healers as they've been for the past years. On the same note, you can't use Apocapotato or mana shift as an argument for party utility as BLM. Long cooldowns for something you barely use or need in a fight, and mana shift actually hurting your restricted rotation dependant on a BLM's current mp.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Funny you mention 2.0 bard, because RDM feels more like a fully realized 3.0 bard in its mobility.

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I only say 2.0 Bard as i have not touched Bard in 4.0 yet...
lol

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

BLM has little to no utility and has one of the more troublesome rotations of the casters. While SMN's is admittedly more punishing if you die, RDM's is leaps and bounds easier with even more utility added on. But BLM? It has nothing but DPS and it doesn't even win there.

So how about we give BLM those big numbers too?

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I've played Blm since I first joined in ARR and even though I really didn't like the HW 50% Flare nerf, I still found Blm to have a smooth play style up to and at 60. I'm not sure if it's primarily due to the Enochian change, but Blm feels super clunky to me now and I really hate the 70% Flare nerf. It feels like SE is trying to take aoe skills back to level of old ARR Bane where it got capped after two or three enemies. I also wish there was a way to play with old Enochian rather than new enochian. If SE really wanted to make it easy to keep up, they could have just reduced the cd to 30 seconds rather than messing with the duration. Astral seems to drop super quick now too when it used to hang for like half a second or so after the icon went away.

Rdm feels like how HW Blm used to feel for me. It's smooth and strong.

Ok guys I just encounter a blm doing 4.2k dps on V1 he just right beside me in dps

I would say blm is in the right spot right now.... you guys need to git gud

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

Ok guys I just encounter a blm doing 4.2k dps on V1 he just right beside me in dps

I would say blm is in the right spot right now.... you guys need to git gud

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If you are going as a RDM, the BLM should should have been at 4400 dps because he is a pure dps caster while the RDM is utility. Being equal is an insult to BLM when it should be above that of RDM dps.

Edit: I am only going to explain this once because I am tired and don't feel like debating. If both RDM and BLM have a max potential of 4200 dps, people are going to pick the RDM for groups because it has buffs, a heal, and an instant revive while the BLM has nothing to offer. In order to get people to bring BLM, we need to do a lot more damage then just 4200. It needs to be more around 4400-4500 for people to bring us over RDMs.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

If you are going as a RDM, the BLM should should have been at 4400 dps because he is a pure dps caster while the RDM is utility. Being equal is an insult to BLM when it should be above that of RDM dps.

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I am sorry but of all the red mage in average all their dps are all burst 4.5k~5k the first min but after at the end of the fight their dps for red mage is 3.8k to 3.9k so a blm is still around 4k~4.2k so I see no problem there

It's all down to skill but I have never seen a red mage with 4k dps at the end of the fight lol

Also I am not a red mage I am a samurai

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

I am sorry but of all the red mage in average all their dps are all burst 4.5k~5k the first min but after at the end of the fight their dps for red mage is 3.8k to 3.9k so a blm is still around 4k~4.2k so I see no problem there

It's all down to skill but I have never seen a red mage with 4k dps at the end of the fight lol

Also I am not a red mage I am a samurai

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Well, I wasn't sure which class you were playing as since the one at the bottom isn't always accurate to the situation. As for the other stuff mentioned, BLM are trying a modified 3.0 rotation, so that might be why it was so high or yours low. I don't know at the moment. I am tired, and it has been a long day.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

Well, I wasn't sure which class you were playing as since the one at the bottom isn't always accurate to the situation. As for the other stuff mentioned, BLM are trying a modified 3.0 rotation, so that might be why it was so high or yours low. I don't know at the moment. I am tired, and it has been a long day.

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Of all the red mage I have encountered none of them reach 4k at the end of the fight but blm does so don't lose hope!!! I need some one to be my competitor up here :rolleyes:

As a Red Mage player, RDM should be behind BLM in potential dps when accounting for mistakes and movement. So either RDM needs a nerf, or BLM needs a buff.

Overall, their design philosophy is heavily flawed, but I'm too lazy to really get into it. By their own words BLM should be the SAM equivalent, yet BLM is harder to perform with and more importantly the punishment for having to move is pretty huge.

It's just very clear certain jobs are getting more love than others and SE just wants to mostly wave it off.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

As a Red Mage player, RDM should be behind BLM in potential dps when accounting for mistakes and movement. So either RDM needs a nerf, or BLM needs a buff.

Overall, their design philosophy is heavily flawed, but I'm too lazy to really get into it. By their own words BLM should be the SAM equivalent, yet BLM is harder to perform with and more importantly the punishment for having to move is pretty huge.

It's just very clear certain jobs are getting more love than others and SE just wants to mostly wave it off.

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Nah your red mage dps is fine you guys don't need a nerf I mean come on if i never encounter a red mage with a dps of 4k at the end of a fight for the past 2 week it spell pretty much that you guys don't need a nerf bit blm does able to hit 4.2k so I don't see a problem with these 2 job

Should a job do more DPS if it's harder to play? Some people mentioned it, curious to see more thoughts on it.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

It more has to do with how our damage is gimped when we have to move a lot due to fight mechanics, so to make up for our lost damage, we need a potency increase to get close to that of Sam to make up for our lost mobility. RDMs are currently beating both SMN and BLM in terms of damage because of their mobility.

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This doesn't surprise me, I quit playing both of my BLM in late 2.x because of this very reason. It's maddening.