Other healers are really getting on my nerves. (Discussion)

I'm a SCH main, best I can literally do at this point when it comes to eight man content is offer off-healer support when tons of damage is being pushed out. I would love to be the main healer and still try to mostly focus on damage mitigation and healing in between casting my dots, but the potency nerfs my class has suffered kind of make it a little hard now even when I know the fight. Not impossible mind, but if the fight is something I'm not used to I do need the other healer to take on the main role until I've caught up to speed simply by virtue of the incredibly small margin for error SE has allowed my class to get away with if we wish to be useful at this moment.

That said I never have Clerics on my bar and find it a wasted skill at it's current potency. I would however KILL for them to return Esuna/Leeches to their proper classes so I can actually pick up something a bit more useful on the role list. Esuna can generally be swapped out for Omega and the Susano (because outside of that one Doom cast in Omega most of these have status afflictions that can't be removed) but I would like Eye for an Eye to have a far more permanent place on my bar.

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Originally Posted by Kels

I can't agree more, however I've heard one too many healers say "clerics over Esuna/protect" ... :(

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I have it on the "bar" so I don't take up it's space, but it's never selected in the role system. There are 5 skills I deem necessary and Cleric is not one of them.

Every healer needs to have Esuna. Protect is generally assumed to exist and people will stand there and wait for it to be cast. Most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Niqote

Be careful not to enable them.
If your co-healer seems you are handling things fine then they might feel its agreeable to DPS more.

I know this won't always be the circumstance, but you might not realise it when it happens.

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I'm sure those bad healers know this. This is why you get two of them in a party and can't clear a trial because they both spam their HoT's at the pull and don't do any other healing.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Every healer needs to have Esuna.

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Esuna is actually only needed in a few pieces of content, leaving the slot wasted in most content. Generally better to swap it out for something else in most content, slotting it back in on an as-needed basis.

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

Esuna is actually only needed in a few pieces of content, leaving the slot wasted in most content. Generally better to swap it out for something else in most content, slotting it back in on an as-needed basis.

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Yeah there's a spreadsheet for it.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ring&sle=true#

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

Esuna is actually only needed in a few pieces of content, leaving the slot wasted in most content. Generally better to swap it out for something else in most content, slotting it back in on an as-needed basis.

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Actually, this isn't true. In most content you can find some use for Esuna, even if it's not required... there was a chart someone made on Reddit, maybe I should go find it. Hmm...

Otherwise, yeah you should take something else. But I would much rather take shitty Rescue over garbage Cleric Stance any day.

At level 70 I still can't believe putting regan on the tank before a pull is still a thing.

Also during extreme trials, group wide regent before starting.

These healers might as well paint a big target sign on themselves.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Actually.l, this isn't true. In most content you can find some use for Esuna, even if it's not required... there was a chart someone made on Reddit, maybe I should go find it. Hmm... Otherwise, yeah you should take something else. But I would much rather take shitty Rescue over garbage Cleric Stance any day.

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The overwhelming majority of the Esuna-able mechanics in this game (that aren't DoTs) can be safely ignored, and the overwhelming majority of DoTs can be dealt with by just tossing a Regen / Aspected on them and going about your business. The only one who might have trouble with the DoTs would be Scholar, but their fairy tether can usually deal with the stronger DoTs that might break a Galvanize.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderThorolund

At level 70 I still can't believe putting regan on the tank before a pull is still a thing. Also during extreme trials, group wide regent before starting. These healers might as well paint a big target sign on themselves.

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It's probably the easiest way to learn, if someone takes the half second to comment. I know I stopped doing that after I got turned into a fine paste and someone pointed out that Medica II has abnormally high enmity generation. Granted, this was during level 50 content when I was still in mostly AF1 gear with a piece or two of outdated accessories because #Sprout... for someone to still be doing it at level 70 is a special kind of terribad (and likely one of those type of people who would ignore you anyways).

This DPSing as a healer only started after Alexander DPS checks. Since then the healing game has changed and Healers are expected to DPS. AST myself and the only time I deal damage is when the DPS is lacking and not killing stuff fast enough so Ill AoE. Other then that my tank keeps me plenty busy with big mob pulls. This mentality of Healers needing to DPS is kind of nuts. They shouldn't need to DPS. If you want to DPS play a DPS class. The thing that I have been noticing lately is bad DPS unable to kill groups quickly requiring me to heal harder because the mobs are up longer then the tanks cooldowns. Yet... we want to talk about how healers should be DPSing... makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by NewSinz

Yet... we want to talk about how healers should be DPSing... makes no sense.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._good/dcznu32/

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DPS: "The healer is DPSing!"
Healer: "Well, someone has to..."

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Let me edit and just /headdesk

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Originally Posted by NewSinz

This DPSing as a healer only started after Alexander DPS checks. [...]

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Sorry to break it to you, but DPSing as a healer has been a thing since 2.0.

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Originally Posted by amihavingfunyet

Sorry to break it to you, but DPSing as a healer has been a thing since 2.0.

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This.

I've been DPSing as a healer since T5 was the hot raid to beat.

Jobs aside, players - healers who use cleric stance or whatever not over the actual useful healing stuff, SUCK. When I get into group with one I think woah that player needs some sprout level lessons. That aside, DPSing is the 2nd priority, right after healing. If a healer can't do their job right and balance out these two things, then they might want to reconsider their job choice.

I stand corrected I forgot about that. I just remember it being a big deal in Alex.

you can main heal and dps. hell, you can solo heal and dps. its all about planning your heals around fights, such as earthly star, saving you a cast of helios. coordination with your cohealer is important too, for example, you can save yet another helios cast if you tell them to use assize/asylum or whispering dawn on a certain attack. given how most fights are scripted, its really easy for both healers to pull over 1500 dps.

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Originally Posted by NewSinz

I stand corrected I forgot about that. I just remember it being a big deal in Alex.

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You are right in the sense that it got much more important in Gordias, but that's mostly because every single party member needed to perform (close to) their best.

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Originally Posted by Synrin

Jobs aside, players - healers who use cleric stance or whatever not over the actual useful healing stuff, SUCK.

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You can have Cleric Stance and all your actual useful healing stuff. If Protect is taken care off and Esuna isn't needed (at all, ie Lakshmi and Susano), you can safely pick Cleric Stance alongside Largesse, Lucid Dreaming, Eye for an Eye and Swiftcast.
Rescue is borderline useless depending on the fight, it has some nice uses in Susano, but other than that I didn't find a fight where it would really be a help.

2nd ASTs really get on my nerves; they're like, guilty until proven innocent. It was a thing I had in HW, and now the new top-secret private card UI for ASTs made it 2 times worse.


...You haven't overwritten my AoE Balance yet, but until this duty is over I fully expect you to...

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Yeah there's a spreadsheet for it.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ring&sle=true#

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The pattern I see here is that the most Trials/raids don't need it, but all but 8 of the dungeons do. Those that don't are mostly level 50 dungeons.

However who the hell is going to consult a list just to decide if Esuna should be in the role setup or not. It's better to leave Esuna there and drop protect after you cast it if you really need to put something else there. Personally I think all the other offerings are not useful.


Cleric Stance: adds 5% to DPS, why would you need this except during solo content
Break: Basically Stone I, adds heavy to the target, where in the game has Heavy casted by the player ever been useful except in combination with a knockback or stun? You'd only ever want to cast this to run away from something, and again that is a solo-play thing.
Protect: Necessary or you will get shouted down for being a bad healer.
Esuna: Necessary, or mostly-helpful on most dungeons, PotD and field content. You will get shouted down for not having it.
Lucid Dreaming: Necessary on WHM and AST, you would be stupid not to take it. Also useful to use immediately after a heal-bomb to cut enmity back down.
Swiftcast: Considered essential, though most people use it entirely to make raises instant, and otherwise their heal-bomb macro.
E4E: Not terribly useful due to the recast time, basically tank-buster migitation if you don't have shields (eg AST/SCH has other shield options)
Largesse: Useful on hard content that takes a long time to complete, eg Trials. Rarely useful on trash unless you're out of mana and are trying to make it last longer
Surecast: On a healer this is again, only useful in a very specific scenario where you'd otherwise get interrupted on a long cast, most attacks that aren't party-wide damage don't interrupt you.
Rescue: Please tell me where this is useful.

Of these, I take Protect, Esuna, Lucid Dreaming, Swiftcast and Largesse. All of these were originally in the WHM/CNJ toolkit.
Cleric Stance and Break are solo-play options that have little use in a dungeon.
You might argue E4E is useful but I've never needed it, even in pre-SB. I also never used Surecast in pre-SB either.

So what to use for me made sense. But as I and others keeps saying, these things in the Healer role actions, should not be there, they should be in the base toolkit. Esuna and Protect should not even be here, they should be Exclusive to WHM. AST and SCH had their own clense skills, and they should get those back, and they should get their own takes on Protect instead. Lucid Dreaming and Largesse mainly came out of WHM's toolkit, but these are less to complain about being here since they're not very useful once you outgear a dungeon or trial. But I'd rather have them and the opportunity to use them than have to think about swapping in skills on a per-dungeon or even per-boss basis. Who stands still long enough to do that?

As bad as it sounds, you're probably going to have to get used to it.
SE made AST healing and mitigation so strong, that the other healer can afford to slack off and DPS more.

When I party up with a SCH, I naturally heal more, because I know I'm better at getting bars up faster than they are.
Meanwhile if I party with an AST, I'll slack a bit more because I know their heals are better than mine.

This silent communication between healers has been going on since 2.0, it's nothing new really.

I play WHM. I generally try to stay balanced with the other healer for both healing and DPS. I find that that usually does the raid as a whole the most good. If I noticed the other healer is healing more than I am, I make an obvious attempt to shoulder more of the burden. If they make it obvious they don't want to DPS, and just want to heal, then I let them. It's worked pretty well.

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Originally Posted by amihavingfunyet

Sorry to break it to you, but DPSing as a healer has been a thing since 2.0.

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1.0 WHM here, was DPSing in endgame fights there. :)

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Eww, who is taking Cleric Stance? It's such a waste of space now.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Cleric Stance is not worth being on anyone's bar.

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Hated it before stormblood, won't be using it unless they retool it again.

Also no offense to the OP, but you're an Astro. Your dps isnt going to be as good as a White Mage's anyway.

cleric stance shouldn't be on your bar in the first place.

Protect is macro'ed out at the beginning for Esuna. You die, oh well. Protect is gone for you. Esuna, Divine Seal, Shroud, E for E (Rescue for certain runs where I know people have trouble getting in position), Swiftcast.

When someone asks me (has only ever happened a few times) if I want to take protect, I just tell them no. You take it. SE wanted to take all my skills away and give them around, well guess what, you use them in 8 mans.

Maybe SE shouldn't have taken away so many skills, eh? I mean, I already completely ignore the Lily mechanic. Less staring at thing is what they wanted!

Yeah I was an AST paired up with a WHM in the Royal Menagerie. Not only did they spam Holy even before the fight started having minimal MP, they just continue to use Aero/Stone and very rarely threw down an Asylum or the occasional Cure. People died quite a bit (was a first time doing the duty for some), yet I was the only one rezzing them and keeping the HP within decent levels. I called out the WHM on their behaviour yet they just said they can do what they want and made a sarcastic comment when my MP was hanging by a threshold.... which from solo healing/rezzing is to be expected. Granted I eventually got a structure going and managed to get through it, but still it could of gone so much easier and quicker if the healer actually helped out more. Feel like that they just dropped in by mistake because of the Trial Roulette....

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Eww, who is taking Cleric Stance? It's such a waste of space now.

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A space that I don't really have much else to put in. I don't need Esuna for Ex Primals, and I think I only need it for O3 to dispel Doom. Eye for Eye to me isn't worth the slot as a non-Scholar. Rarely do I get full uptime usage of a Clerics, but it's better than nothing or a spell that I'll never use. Technically I have two free spaces without Clerics, but I don't need to drop protect because there's so little I have to replace it. Largesse, Swiftcast and Lucid Dreaming are more or less the only three mandatory staples I have.

Rescue is a minor option I've seen used for pulling people in after they've baited a thunder cloud, but that's really it. Great PvP spell, horrid minimal use in PvE.

I don't have his particular issue but in sorry you feel this way OP don't worry come 4.05 they will nerf us Astros so back to the secondary healer we go lol but like someone said if I have to take over healing which seems to be the case in like susano ex all the time then so be it....p.s. cleric is never a good hand off I would use like eye for eye or some thing in morning useful

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

-snip-

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Well, when I'm doing stuff with my FC, it's usually roulettes.
Leveling, Trials, 50/60 and Expert. Outside of Expert, there's a good chance I won't need Esuna. In most of the leveling dungeons pre-50 I just heal through poison, although I'd definitely take it for something like AV.
That being said I do just keep Esuna at default now, but even with the high CD, I think E4E can be useful at times.

Apparently though you can use a macro to change role actions.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...g_it_set_as_a/

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Rescue: Please tell me where this is useful.

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Okay.

Like many, my default is protect, esuna, lucid dreaming, swiftcast, and largesse, slotting in E4E after protect in dungeons. I'll always bring esuna if there's something worth dispelling (doom, paralysis, heavy hitting DoTs/Damage debuffs, all sorts of stuff) or if I simply don't remember if I need it or not. As for rescue -

Rescue's delay in activation is awful. It is not needed if people are playing well. It is super situational - it is a rescue from a mistake, after all. It can easily destroy someone's rotation. I feel its cooldown is too long and could be brought down some, as well. Anytime I take it, I have no guarantee it will be used.

But I have found myself in this situation all the time, particularly in this fight, with many, many players (MSQ Stormblood 70 Spoilers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbKnmXFdkEw

Here are some places it is useful:
- Ramuh trials, pull someone with lightning AoE towards someone who will be stunned if not hit with lightning
- Ravana, pull a dum-dum away from giant-offtank-cone-blaster. Pull someone into Slaughter safe zone. Pull someone into safe-area from Pillars of Heaven. Two of these can be healed through, one results in a raise.
- Any fight with a stackup marker, pull someone with stackup way away from everyone into the clump
- Susano EX, depending on strat and what's going on, particularly during churning + knockback + stack if the raid doesn't position accordingly / mitigate the knockback entirely with a shield
- Lakshmi EX, if your healer or buddy isn't with you for confuse, yank em over
- Royal Menagerie. Save someone from Tidal Wave...from bad stackup placement after middle-circle AoE that causes spread...Pull someone away from their chains partner who they've decided to hug. Or most applicable, pull someone from giant-line-aoe knockback to safety since they're not going to get out of the AoE and aren't running forward to survive the knockback. Have even used it to save someone in a bad position from Aerial Blast.
- Deltascape v2 and v4, save from tentacle AoEs and save from wind knockback poor positioning.

Of note - these are mostly trials or otherwise 8 man content, meaning one of you can drop protect pretty safely, or if esuna isn't needed, can drop it. E4E is iffy in trials without multiple threatening targets. Break, Cleric stance...nothing to write home about either unless you really need one for a burst phase or one for a heavy for whatever fight mechanics exist.

In trials I can find a use for rescue, I am happy to drop protect considering what I can save with a rescue, particularly with new players. It might see some use in savage, it really depends on how the mechanics are set up, but it's unlikely to ever be required by any means. I find it more useful than surecast typically speaking, but there are mechanics I might prefer surecast over rescue, and also something I'd probably be more likely to take in a planned static rather than DF. Neither are great. But it does feel good to rescue people successfully.

You're being paired up with lazy/bad healers really, all there is to it. Especially if the other healer is a SCH, because in comps involving a SCH, the bulk of the healing is meant to be on them. However chances of getting a pug healer comp that can coordinate properly are slim, so you just gotta role with what you get sometimes...

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Originally Posted by Annah

I heal and I dps. I NEVER got criticized for that.

However, when I DPS (as a DPS), I see healers get criticized because they left the main tank near death countless of times in one dungeon run because they gotta squeeze out that one last stone or one last holy.

Like I said, if you heal well and not freak out your tank every 13 seconds the criticism will not be there

I'm not accusing you of doing this but do have to say EVERYTIME i see a healer get criticized for DPSing (ingame) is because they do that (leave the tank near death ALL the time)

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But, if the healer can recover from that situation all the time, they clearly know what they are doing and know how to heal.

Then again, if tanks freak out over this why are they pulling so much? Do they even think about they are going to freak the healer out? no they dont.

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Originally Posted by Coratanni

Hated it before stormblood, won't be using it unless they retool it again.

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Clerics was the best before stormblood, now i find it not worth a slot.

I agree completely. Last night, I ran temple of the fist and kept dying because the healer wouldn't stop his holy spamming to do his job. And I'm not exactly undergeared either with an Ilvl of about 300. Dude had time to watch my health dip lower and lower... aaaand it's gone.

Please, Healers, heal others first. It's your job and it's in your name. Only when you have topped everyone off, and have the MP to spare should you try to do DPS' job for them. It's okay if we clear this pack of trash mobs a little slower, but it will take far more time if the group wipes and we have to walk back

Doing pug groups I go in expecting to heal first priority/dps secondary unless im in a group that doing well. I dps allot more i.e 1. if people do mechanic​s correctly 2.dps/cohealer/ot not taking unnecessary damage, 3. tanks using cool downs properly/with my HoT's. When all these come together you'll have the time to dps more if not your healing. /Shrug my two cents