BLM needs some love and RDM needs a nerf

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

How could a potency buff EVER be considered unhelpful?

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When all they did back in arr to a little past hw was give it minor potency buffs blm still got benched and generally out done by smn.

The buffs to potency didnt help, speed wouldve allowed it to scale better (up to a point).

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

How could a potency buff EVER be considered unhelpful?

Potency buffs are practically the purest form of helping a class out lol.

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Half the fun is seeing what Foul hits for anyway.

I don't really even have the words...

I do actually, but I am going to leave em at the door to the MCH, SMN, DRG, MNK, WAR - forums.

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

When all they did back in arr to a little past hw was give it minor potency buffs blm still got benched and generally out done by smn.

The buffs to potency didnt help, speed wouldve allowed it to scale better (up to a point).

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But did BLM hit harder- therefore closing the gap between them and SMN? Yes. All it means is that if SE planned to balance the 2 with potencies then they simply do enough not that it didn't help.

Blm hit harder yet never hit hard enough or frequent enough.
Thats why the class got stomped. Thats why it struggled.
Thats why the potency buffs didnt help because it was still behind regardless.

Speed wouldve made a miles difference as it directly combats BLMs biggest weakness, other classes sure pps buffs are nice but BLM is not affected by small end of math potency buffs like other classes.

For potency buffs to help blm itd have to be substantial not 10s or 20s. Damage has always been fine on BLM the thing we've always wolved for was speed.

Speed scales better on blm than minor potency buffs.

Blm hit harder yet never hit hard enough or frequent enough thats why it didnt help

Thats why the class got stomped. Thats why it struggled.
Thats why the potency buffs didnt help because it was still behind regardless.

Speed wouldve made a miles difference as it directly combats BLMs biggest weakness, other classes sure pps buffs are nice but BLM is not affected by small end of math potency buffs like other classes.

For potency buffs to help blm itd have to be substantial not 10s or 20s. Damage has always been fine on BLM the thing we've always wolved for was speed.

Speed scales better on blm than minor potency buffs.

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

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I feel like it's a semantic issue we're having. I feel like BLM doing 100 and going to 200 is helping- even if SMN did 250. You don't have to be a high contender for optimal placement in a raid group to appreciate a damage buff.

See- it's like MCH right now. We'd appreciate a damage buff right about now even if BRD was still always taken.

Im saying the point is closing the gap doesnt help its design if it cannot meet what its designed to do.

100 to 200 is fine for a class not completely egg in basket for dps and only dps (0 utility). But if another class that has both dps and relatively close to or surpasses the prior in practical application then the buff did not help.

It becomes a mathematical loss to even use the job in any practical setting, its not about raid spots but proper balance. The same concept is currently occurring on the average scale


Its like pushing 2 more O2 into someone with an o2 of 60, yeah its higher now but theyre still going to die.

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

Im saying the point is closing the gap doesnt help its design if it cannot meet what its designed to do.

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There's never been a time where a class hasn't been able to clear content after cutting edge world progression (That's its own beast) except maybe the launch of AST and Savage- all classes have always been able to do what they were designed to do. A Black Mage with buffed potencies will still get more damage out on the casts that they do get out- even if more speed/mobility would mean more casts overall.

As they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat. If a summoner was better at killing something that doesn't mean Black Mage couldn't as well- and wouldn't mind the extra oomph.

Edit: Sidenote- a lot of what you're saying is also banking on the idea that BLM won't find raid groups if SMN were to be stronger. This isn't true. Seeing as all classes have seen raid progression and completion in the past, it's safe to say that there is a world beyond the best.

while i'm a noob at all of this, RDM does feel kinda easy. Really want that BLM challange would be properly rewarded.
But they are comming up with patch 4.0.1 and many more will follow. Who knows, perhaps they will make some balance adjustments.
They havnt released a single patch yet after the release.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

BLM is less than 100 DPS below RDM in Susano. It beats SMN by 200 DPS.
BLM is 200 DPS below RDM in Lakshmi. It beats SMN by 100 DPS.
So, on average, BLM is 150 DPS in between RDM and SMN regarding caster DPS. While it's not "the best", it's still completely viable. SMN, on the other hand, is not.

SAM is completely overpowered, don't compare BLM to it. In fact, don't compare anything to it. SAM is in its own category.

Though I do agree that RDM grants too much DPS for the skill floor and ceiling it has, while also having very potent healing abilities and raise. It's also a job which doesn't punish failure that much.
Tuning it down a bit is all the caster balance needs. SMN needs quite a buff too. But BLM is probably at the right spot already.

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I love red mage. It is a fun job and a pretty easy one too.

And I agree with everything you wrote regarding them.

Due to the fun being in the mechanics, doing appropriately less damage would not affect my enjoyment of the job. It would also be fair to the more complex jobs too.

But, for the life of me, I cannot come up with a damage dealer ranking without wanting to change it a few minutes later.

Gah! How do the devs do it? By complexity? By utility?

If you were the person doing the nerfs and buffs, what would be your damage dealer rankings?

Seems like most content is set to mess blms over, sure as we learn fights it becomes less issue but blm is the one punished the most by mechanics.
Myself i am sort of just playing Red Mage now as main for the time being, it is very easy job, fairly high output and i enjoy it.
Also i like being to help out my raising people if needed, makes me feel more useful then when i was playing blm

With this said i do feel they should not nerf Red Mage but buff both blm and smn

You can't have one class with the same capability as the other classes in their role, who also has access to instant casts on atleast every second spell, high potency cure, instant raise, and a damage buff for all melee and ranged classes, without the other classes in that same category having atleast equal utility.

It's totally illogical, I don't even know how there can be a 6 page thread about it unless it's a cacophany of people agreeing with each other.

The class has more damage, more mobility, more utility, more survivability, and less punishment for screwing up. I play neither and have a vested interested in none of the ranged (magic) damage classes. The situation between rdm, blm and smn is untenable and ridiculous. Even if you accept only 2 or 3 of the above 5 areas are out of balance, that's still an extraordinary imbalance that renders leveling blackmage a waste of time, where even if you are playing it because you enjoy it, you are doing so at the cost of being a detriment to your group.

I play BLM main job since 2.0 and i must say... im kinda tired of it when i see how RDM faceroll every single mechanics while BLM is punished on a constant basis.

Lets face it, BLM has no group utility while RDM can buff, heal, raise and deal more DPS.

i dont get it anymore, there is no reward trying to master a job like BLM, its harder to play for no reward at the end.

The problem with RNG server ticks for MP regen is also a killer when we are supposed to cast 6 FireIV.

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Originally Posted by Lumpia

I'm a MCH refugee who's gone back to BLMing up the EX primals all weekend. BLM is great, I love it. RDM and BLM are just different strokes.

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THIS! This thread... lots'a and I mean, lots'a QQ'ing... not sure what game you guys are playing but SMN is in a GREAT place as dps...lovin' it... now just pulled out my BLM to get it level'd up and lovin' the changes so far... both jobs now play differently than before; SMN changes/revisions took some getting use to but WOW... RDM is "nice" but not even close to the SUMMONER! too much QQ'ing.. here.

Taking a look at FFLogs without balance, on Lakshmi it seems RDM,SAM,BLM are pretty close in terms of damage which is kinda.....wrong? Then looking at Susano SAM gaps grows quite a bit but then looking at RDM and BLM the RDM is still ahead but slightly. It sucks to have no utility and get beating by the guy with bonkers utility even tho its a small lead in dps.

Granted we dont know how Omega fights will be so going off current content and trying to base that on what needs to be nerfed or buffed would be silly.

BLM is pulling more DPS than RDM according to FFlogs, so actually we should nerf BLM and their 32k Fouls.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

BLM is pulling more DPS than RDM according to FFlogs, so actually we should nerf BLM and their 32k Fouls.

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No its not:

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15/#boss=1036
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15/#boss=1037

People really need to stop with the nerf talk. How about we wait until savage or give it longer then a month to complain. The 2 EX Primals are very easy, but movement heavy so yeah BLMs are gonna be hurt dps wise.

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Originally Posted by Furious

where even if you are playing it because you enjoy it, you are doing so at the cost of being a detriment to your group.

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I hate saying this argument, but in this case it is true. The group doesn't pay my sub, so if I am playing something I don't enjoy. I would rather stop playing the game. My enjoyment of the game is in no way connected to what the group wants because I am not that mentally weak. If a group wants me to play something different, I will just tell them to kiss my metal shiny ass and leave them where they are.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

BLM is pulling more DPS than RDM according to FFlogs, so actually we should nerf BLM and their 32k Fouls.

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It's not, and damage is all we have. Okay, and we're slightly better at Mana Shifting.
That's it. Having the raise and the cute is actually so clutch sometimes, on RDM. You can literally save a run.
On BLM I just look as it falls apart and accept my fate.

But that's not even my issue. It's how fluid and easy RDM feels to me. I can just run around for days. On BLM it's all so tense- I need to predict the next 30s of every fight and make contingency plans so I can keep dpsing. I kinda like that feeling- the knife's edge, a bad aoe pattern and I'm screwed, and the feeling when you "outsmart" the mechanic. I just wish I had a better reward. And didn't know the group is better served if I go RDM x)

It's not like the fact we have a stronger single hit is that important anyway. Fire IV is sooo slow with the new speed scaling :/

Please don't nerf the RDM, for the first time (in forever ? :p) I feel like I can DPS xD

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Originally Posted by Xiozen

THIS! This thread... lots'a and I mean, lots'a QQ'ing... not sure what game you guys are playing but SMN is in a GREAT place as dps...lovin' it... now just pulled out my BLM to get it level'd up and lovin' the changes so far... both jobs now play differently than before; SMN changes/revisions took some getting use to but WOW... RDM is "nice" but not even close to the SUMMONER! too much QQ'ing.. here.

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Even if all 3 do identical damage, RDM is massively superior thanks to every other mechanic. Whether or not you like how they play doesn't change the fact that RDM has instant cures and raise on every second cast available, which impacts mobility, survivability, and utility.

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Originally Posted by MiruWest

Taking a look at FFLogs without balance, on Lakshmi it seems RDM,SAM,BLM are pretty close in terms of damage which is kinda.....wrong? Then looking at Susano SAM gaps grows quite a bit but then looking at RDM and BLM the RDM is still ahead but slightly. It sucks to have no utility and get beating by the guy with bonkers utility even tho its a small lead in dps.

Granted we dont know how Omega fights will be so going off current content and trying to base that on what needs to be nerfed or buffed would be silly.

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Because we are capable of logical extrapolation, and there is never going to be a scenario where low mobility or low utility are boons in their own rights.

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Originally Posted by sylvestew

People really need to stop with the nerf talk. How about we wait until savage or give it longer then a month to complain. The 2 EX Primals are very easy, but movement heavy so yeah BLMs are gonna be hurt dps wise.

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Because waiting to talk about what we can already logically ascertain is stupid.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I hate saying this argument, but in this case it is true. The group doesn't pay my sub, so if I am playing something I don't enjoy. I would rather stop playing the game. My enjoyment of the game is in no way connected to what the group wants because I am not that mentally weak. If a group wants me to play something different, I will just tell them to kiss my metal shiny ass and leave them where they are.

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Nobody can stop you. But you know, and they know, that you are a burden that you chose to inflict on them.

RDM does a lot of damage and can ST offheal or instaraise. Embolden for physical based parties while buffing it's own damage. All with little effort or strain. It's a do everything job and it does it all well. Only thing BLM has over it is AoE sustain which RDM doesn't have. Otherwise RDM excels.

All BLM will bring is damage and that's if the BLM knows the fight and knows where to be. With RDM you could go in blind and do absolutely fine.

Reds bring a lot of value over BLM or SMN I would think.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I shall become a burden that I inflict upon them then, and I shall get much enjoyment out of it because causing pain to pretentious assholes like that who think they have the power to control is always worth the time and energy. Especially if they suffer for it.

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Lovely. A pretentious asshole being a pretentious asshole to other pretentious assholes. We really have come full circle. More power to ya.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Nobody can stop you. But you know, and they know, that you are a burden that you chose to inflict on them.

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I shall become a burden that I inflict upon them then, and I shall get much enjoyment out of it because causing pain to pretentious assholes like that who think they have the power to control is always worth the time and energy. Especially if they suffer for it.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I shall become a burden that I inflict upon them then, and I shall get much enjoyment out of it because causing pain to pretentious assholes like that who think they have the power to control is always worth the time and energy. Especially if they suffer for it.

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I rest my case?

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Originally Posted by Furious

I rest my case?

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Just saying, you think you won by calling it a burden when in reality you didn't because the one who gets the pleasure from it always wins in the end. That is all.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

Just saying, you think you won by calling it a burden when in reality you didn't because the one who gets the pleasure from it always wins in the end. That is all.

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The one who gains pleasure from causing avoidable pain to others wins only in their own mind. Particularly if they win not only despite causing that pain, but because of it.

For everyone else, it's just that guy who everyone casts glances at each other about and gives a small eyeroll before moving on.

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Originally Posted by Furious

The one who gains pleasure from causing avoidable pain to others wins only in their own mind. Particularly if they win not only despite causing that pain, but because of it.

For everyone else, it's just that guy who everyone casts glances at each other about and gives a small eyeroll before moving on.

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Hence pretentious assholes who can't understand people enjoy playing different things. Also, not everyone is that way. Most people I know don't care what you bring as long as you kill the things.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

Hence pretentious assholes who can't understand people enjoy playing different things. Also, not everyone is that way. Most people I know don't care what you bring as long as you kill the things.

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Like I said, nobody can stop you.

But they know. And now you know they know.

You should go and look up Donald from the Dark Legacy comics; the resemblance is somewhat striking.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Like I said, nobody can stop you.

But they know. And now you know they know.

You should go and look up Donald from the Dark Legacy comics; the resemblance is somewhat striking.

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I actually still don't feel like one because I am doing my job by killing the enemies. So far, it seems only you feel this way, and you are trying to project that only your opinion is universal which it is not. I choose to keep to the actual reality that most people don't care. With that, I am done with this conversation. You have already wasted enough of my forum posts.

I'm saying wait until Omega, because right now it seems that omega savage is not going to be that tough from the looks of it,so it isn't going to matter. Everyone here QQ'ing will still be able to clear it and if you can clear the content why is it a problem. Now if you say for World/server first situations that is different and even in that case most of the people complaining aren't on that pace. Also if a group doesn't have a caster in it and they only want a RDM i'm just going to assume that group or leader is BAD and if people cant clear OMEGA unless they have a rdm then yes the other casters should be buffed.

Then people will be saying wait until 5.0 lol

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Originally Posted by sylvestew

Now if you say for World/server first situations that is different and even in that case most of the people complaining aren't on that pace. Also if a group doesn't have a caster in it and they only want a RDM i'm just going to assume that group or leader is BAD.

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This is a silly argument (no offense :(). It always matters because of the effort and reward ratios. I can clear Dark Souls naked with a lightning reinforced club, but that's way harder than using proper gear. Playing a better job/comp has an inherent advantage. If the gap is very small then sure, yea, it doesn't mean much. But otherwise, you will feel noticeably weaker (think AST in 3.0). Plus, for many people, feeling powerful counts a lot. It's fun to feel powerful. Plus, you like being rewarded if you do well. And if someone gets a better reward for less effort, that frankly feels not-so-good x)

That is kinda where i'm getting at, the gap isn't big enough for people to be saying NERF, lol yes feeling powerful matters to people but they only feel weak b/c they are comparing to others, someone is always gonna be more powerful. I just know how SE nerfs are been playing this since 1.0. It'll then turn into people crying RDM dps sucks only good for raise and thus will be complaining about people only wanting a rdm for progression but not farms. Sure buff the other casters if they are really that far behind after we see what the first raid looks like is all. Not 5.0 ROFL

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Originally Posted by sylvestew

That is kinda where i'm getting at, the gap isn't big enough for people to be saying NERF, lol yes feeling powerful matters to people but they only feel weak b/c they are comparing to others, someone is always gonna be more powerful. I just know how SE nerfs are been playing this since 1.0. It'll then turn into people crying RDM dps sucks only good for raise and thus will be complaining about people only wanting a rdm for progression but not farms. Sure buff the other casters if they are really that far behind after we see what the first raid looks like is all. Not 5.0 ROFL

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Even if you take cure and raise out of the equation rdm still has embolden. The current gap shows rdm with a dps lead over blm and that doesn't account for the extra damage embolden caused on potentially 5 other party members(2 tanks, 3 melee dps). Factoring in that dps will widen the gap even farther.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Even if you take cure and raise out of the equation rdm still has embolden. The current gap shows rdm with a dps lead over blm and that doesn't account for the extra damage embolden caused on potentially 5 other party members(2 tanks, 3 melee dps). Factoring in that dps will widen the gap even farther.

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So you dont want RDM to have anything or Do you just want it so an average BLM will never lose to a good RDM in dps?

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Originally Posted by sylvestew

So you dont want RDM to have anything or Do you just want it so an average BLM will never lose to a good RDM in dps?

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Do you not understand what balance means? You balance out all factors. In what world does it make sense that a blm does less dps than a rdm, AND can't buff the damage of party members? Why bring a blm to anything if you're guaranteed something that is weaker?

In the case of a class providing a buff to party members that increased damage they do is now indirectly increasing the provider's dps, because without the provider the classes getting the buff would do less dps. Therefore you can directly factor in that dps to the provider. So keeping this simple lets say class A has no buff and just does pure damage. Class B has a buff that creates a raidwide dps increase of 200dps. Class A should do 200 dps more than Class B, that way they're equal. Class B does less damage but gains indirect damage from the buff, Class A just does raw damage.

You talk as if embolden has no CD and its something that always up and it has diminishing effects. In what world? a world where the rdm is actually good and knows how to play their class. RDM obviously has a higher skill floor then BLM, so thats why i asked my question, you want them to raise the ceiling on blm so high as if even the worst of blms will be able to keep up with a RDM regardless of whats going on. yes a good blm should beat a good rdm always and if thats not the case im ok with the buff..

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Originally Posted by sylvestew

You talk as if embolden has no CD and its something that always up and it has diminishing effects. In what world? a world where the rdm is actually good and knows how to play their class. RDM obviously has a higher skill floor then BLM, so thats why i asked my question, you want them to raise the ceiling on blm so high as if even the worst of blms will be able to keep up with a RDM regardless of whats going on. yes a good blm should beat a good rdm always and if thats not the case im ok with the buff..

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When and where did I say any of this?

That said you clearly don't understand how the math of things work. The cooldown is irrelevant, the skill will be used and it will result in a dps increase for as many as 6members(the rdm, 3 phy dps, 2 tanks). That dps can be indirectly attributed to the rdm. Because of this blm needs a dps increase. I never once mentioned how this is achieved, I was talking pure theory about balance.

Right now rdm does more damage than any blm without factoring in embolden. If you don't understand the very basic, most trivial elements of balance you really don't have much business contributing to the thread.