Please Please fix Warrior before the release of Raids

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

I'm not sure under what circumstances you would think that missing out on 200 potency from a lost GCD is negligible, but it does add up over an encounter. Also, gap closers generally aren't available while bound, irrespective of job. Only effects like TW and IR negate that effect.

---

I don't know why you're still throwing around the numbers. Like I said before, at best onslaught's 100 damage is only there to make up for the loss of IB. SP combo is ~200 potency + 10 BG gain per GCD, but requires a full 7.5s combo to hit.

Removing the 100 potency and making it cost 0 would really be all that's needed to make it a worthwhile ability - the 20 cost makes it too awkward to use as is for it's current purpose, and the walking time it saves varies from none to 2 seconds at best. It won't always be 200 potency, and you won't be able to use it every 15s on CD, so the actual benefit is way smaller.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dregenfox

Removing the 100 potency and making it cost 0 would really be all that's needed to make it a worthwhile ability - the 20 cost makes it too awkward to use as is for it's current purpose, and the walking time it saves varies from none to 2 seconds at best. It won't always be 200 potency, and you won't be able to use it every 15s on CD, so the actual benefit is way smaller.

---

Are you saying it shouldn't have any potency or BG cost? Or just no BG cost? If it was just no BG cost, it would always be a dps increase to use it, correct? I don't recall if it uses a GCD or not. I think it would probably work better if there was no potency or BG cost, if it was simply a gap closer. It wouldn't be a dps gain (other than saved travel time) but at least it wouldn't be a dps loss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dregenfox

and the walking time it saves varies from none to 2 seconds at best. It won't always be 200 potency, and you won't be able to use it every 15s on CD, so the actual benefit is way smaller.

---

The potency lost from 2s of walking would most likely be the last gcd you could've used in the fight/phase, so at least it'll be 150 potency from heavy swing, at worst it could be 500 potency from fell cleave, as well as the potential auto atk lost. Onslaught is situational but if it saves you 2s of walking then it's absolutely worth it, just like how tempered will is situational but could be a dps gain if it saves you walking time. In fact making it 0 dmg 0 cost skill would pretty much make it like tempered will and there will probably be more complaints about it being very situational (useless in most fights).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aleph_null

In fact making it 0 dmg 0 cost skill would pretty much make it like tempered will and there will probably be more complaints about it being very situational (useless in most fights).

---

The only reason people would complain about 0 damage 0 cost is because it has 0 damage and doesn't increase their dps. Because, we can only ever do things that increase dps.

Onslaught (while really fun to use!) is just stupidly designed, and that stupid design influences everyone's ideas of how it should be balanced as well. Like brutal swing('s replacement) is now, it should have no place in any rotation. It is a very thematic reactionary movement ability that should be used to let the warrior hurl himself across the battlefield at will.

I would change it in the following way:
- No cost. A BG cost on a reactionary ability screws up the rotation and it's worthless in any serious content even if you did make up the immediate potency loss.
- Same(ish) cooldown.
- Make the damage miniscule, like 40. I'd say none, but the animation indicates at least some damage. The next point deals with this.
- A minimum range (6 yalms?). This prevents that 40 dmg from having any effect on your rotation, which the devs rather stupidly tried to solve with the BG cost. No one is going to take the time to run back and zoom in again for 40 potency. The range can be adjusted to insure it would always be a loss.

There you go, now the warrior has a thematic charge ability that is only used for movement instead of a useless ability just sitting on the hotbar annoying us. That's Shake It Off's job! Bonus, it can be used to charge INTO combat! And maybe even give back some of the Warrior feel you bungled up so badly in 4.0.

Please please please give bloodbath and 50% berserk back (even if that means the pacify. I mean hell, we have a cleanse now)!
Love PLD now(great job with that job!), but my main was always WAR. Don't make us drop our great War Men, Women and potato people.

Others have great suggestions too. I don't care what you pick or if we still remain 3rd this round, but give us a reason to play WAR. Give us the fun back SE. You did so damngood with us in 4.0 so we know you have the POWERRRRRR!!

Based by susano and lakshmi fflogs warriors is doing pretty similar dps with dark night. Paladin in the other hand have like 200 - 300 more dps than both of other tanks. Either paladin should be nerfed or both drk and warriors dps should be buffed paladins level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunako

Based by susano and lakshmi fflogs warriors is doing pretty similar dps with dark night. Paladin in the other hand have like 200 - 300 more dps than both of other tanks. Either paladin should be nerfed or both drk and warriors dps should be buffed paladins level.

---

No, don't nerf Paladin.

I say this as a grumpy Warrior player, but Paladin needs to be the new baseline by which we hold all tank power to. Paladin is in an awesome place right now, and nerfing them back down would be a poor sign for all tanks going forward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SargentToughie

No, don't nerf Paladin.

I say this as a grumpy Warrior player, but Paladin needs to be the new baseline by which we hold all tank power to. Paladin is in an awesome place right now, and nerfing them back down would be a poor sign for all tanks going forward.

---

100%

Super grumpy WAR here too. I play both PAL and WAR though and could not be happier with the PLD changes. Satisfying and effective gameplay that reminds me of 3.0 WAR. No nerf. Just keep it the same and bring up WAR and DRK.

Im pretty sure most of us WAR mains are against nerfing PLD. I am so glad that PLD is now perfectly viable in any position (MT or OT), and I would not want it any other way.

I got a 60 pld, but I main war. My war is 70. And I don't care about paladins. I don't want them nerfed. I don't even care about dps because it seems close enough.

What I care about is the actually mechanics of playing a warrior. It just feels wonky right now. I spent a few hours on a dummy just to practice my rotations. And it feels unfun..

Most of this stems from losing rage when swapping stances. Sure, infuriate helps with this, but it still feels aweful to see rage drop on stance swap and feeling that you have to waste time doing combos again to build it back up.

Can't they find a less punishing way of dealing with this?

-Butcher block needs to be increase to 20 rage leave eye at 10 is just fine that way(MT gauge fills too slow making the game play boring an slow)(MT Butcher OT Path) MT will never lose aggro if war OT
-no penalty on tank stance change
-Onslaght no rage cost, make it use TP/MP longer CD whatever even nerf it who cares, i just dont wanna use it because it cost rage that all my other skills need, for that i just sprint ,all we really wanted is to close gap really...
-remove inner release/ Unchaine from sharing CD
-increase berserk to 40% or fell cleve to 650 potency, its not enough anymore
-no sure about shake it off, dont work 80% of the time
PST: dear developers, dont forget you took all our tools an utility away, most of us have accept that but you went too deep on changing the class an totally forgot the fun core of the job, remember what ppl love about it an make it better.
dont touch PLD they are beautiful on his on way ,im happy for them they really need it all those shiny tools, now i can see them as real PLD, the party protector an utility tank/mass survival,im gonna love to OT for them but dont forget what makes war a warrior...

I agree that the BG cost for swapping stances should be lowered. I'm fine with it having some cost but it I feel it is too much at the moment. Maybe put a cap on how much BG the swap can cost and then balance the cap to feel right?

I also agree Onslaught is in need of improvement. It's cost overshadows its benefit by far. The easy solution would of course be to get rid of it's BG cost, but I think it might be interesting to instead add a DoT to it so in a ways giving Fracture back and providing a use for it in the middle of a fight.

WAR also could use some party utility. I'm still not entirely sure what and how exactly but I was thinking it might be interesting and fitting if it was something along the line of increasing a target or the party's max HP by X% for 10 seconds or something like that, allowing for the potential of an extra bit of HP cushion for party/raidwide damage or tank busters while mimicking WAR's tank stance somewhat.

I'd also support Inner Release and Unchained not sharing the same timer as long as stance swapping kept a (reduced) cost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leigaon

Is this the only thing you'd like to have increase Beast Gauage? Or adjust in terms of that? Just curious.

Watching all these veteran warriors suggest these things, some are nice changes. Some I feel are a bit over powered. It's a great learning experience for me though, and it's nice to see my SMN's and WHM's aren't as crazy as I thought but do look at them as an example of be careful what you wish for.

---

Additional ways to generate gauge would be nice. I did purpose Bloodbath return, but instead of healing us, it generates Beast Gauge similar to Blood Weapon with MP. Honestly, if they scrapped the stance swap penalty and just made Onslaught a copy of Plunge, I'd be okay with it. I would like more, however my immediate concern with Warrior at the moment is how clunky it feels to play.

Right now it feels like Paladins are able to tank, deal damage with an easier and more fluid rotation, AND they can do so much to make sure things don't go in the wrong direction.

It's like someone else could be tanking, and if you notice someone is in trouble... BAM! Use Cover on them.

Someone slipped and is about to cause your party to lose a bunch of HP. BAM! Divine Veil.

Intervention to help the main tank stay alive in situations where you feel like they might not make it.

And then there's Clemency. "OMG why would Paladins... ever use THAT, it's such a DPS loss!" YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE IS A DPS LOSS?! WHEN ONE OF YOUR DAMAGE-DEALERS DIE! IDIOTS!

Not to mention they don't have to drop one of their role actions for a stun.

Compare all that with what the other two tanks can do. Yes, they can also tank just as well (nothing considerable). Yes, they can deal damage (nothing considerable). And that's it. They bring nothing else to the table.

By these standards, Paladins have become A LOT better, making it it unfair to the other two tanks. The only real reason to be a Warrior or Dark Knight is because of their animations and character fantasies. But that's just not a valid reason to make Paladin stand out so much the way they currently do.

If butcher's block's gauge generation is increased to 20 then its potency should be reduced to match storm's path combo (either -40 potency on butcher's block or -30 on butcher's block and -10 on skull sunder) or even lower, otherwise we'll go back to the old problem of the enmity combo being the strongest dps combo as well. Personally I think it's fine for butcher's block combo to generate less gauge than storm's path, just like other tanks' enmity combo being weaker than their other combos. Nothing wrong for our enmity combo to come with some dps cost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aleph_null

If butcher's block's gauge generation is increased to 20 then its potency should be reduced to match storm's path combo (either -40 potency on butcher's block or -30 on butcher's block and -10 on skull sunder) or even lower, otherwise we'll go back to the old problem of the enmity combo being the strongest dps combo as well. Personally I think it's fine for butcher's block combo to generate less gauge than storm's path, just like other tanks' enmity combo being weaker than their other combos. Nothing wrong for our enmity combo to come with some dps cost.

---

Or you could make tank design actually good, and make it so that tanks actually feel rewarded for using their enmity combo, and gathering threat.

Right now the goal of optimizing tank play is to generate the LEAST amount of threat possible while still keeping hate, that's not okay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SargentToughie

Or you could make tank design actually good, and make it so that tanks actually feel rewarded for using their enmity combo, and gathering threat.

Right now the goal of optimizing tank play is to generate the LEAST amount of threat possible while still keeping hate, that's not okay.

---

Why is it not okay? It's just like how healers strive to generate the least amount of heal while keeping people alive. The enmity generation itself is the "reward" from using your enmity combo. Asking for the enmity combo to also be the best dps combo is imo just like asking for heals to also do damage to the boss to make healers feel rewarded for using their heals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SargentToughie

Right now the goal of optimizing tank play is to generate the LEAST amount of threat possible while still keeping hate, that's not okay.

---

I think that is a nice way to give the role some depth. Enmity management was always way too easy in this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SargentToughie

Or you could make tank design actually good, and make it so that tanks actually feel rewarded for using their enmity combo, and gathering threat.

Right now the goal of optimizing tank play is to generate the LEAST amount of threat possible while still keeping hate, that's not okay.

---

Hate to be that guy but that's your opinion that generating threat is rewarding. Many people will disagree with you because you have no real point other than your opinion on how tanking should be.

Because I think the most rewarding thing about tanking is clearing an encounter with the least possible HP/threat generation required. Because that actually takes some thought and team coordination. But that's just my opinion too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SargentToughie

Right now the goal of optimizing tank play is to generate the LEAST amount of threat possible while still keeping hate, that's not okay.

---

That is a defining factor of the very concept of optimization, to do the amount needed and to not waste time or effort doing more than necessary.

You could argue for making agro management more difficult and intense, but still the optimal way to handle it will be to generate as much as necessary and not more. The concept stays the same, you just raised the bar of what is "necessary".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

That is a defining factor of the very concept of optimization, to do the amount needed and to not waste time or effort doing more than necessary.

You could argue for making agro management more difficult and intense, but still the optimal way to handle it will be to generate as much as necessary and not more. The concept stays the same, you just raised the bar of what is "necessary".

---

Furthermore, shirk now gives tanks the tools needed to manage aggro between themselves in addition to using it to boost each other above the party. Hate combos have been a thing of the past in these EX Primals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SargentToughie

Or you could make tank design actually good, and make it so that tanks actually feel rewarded for using their enmity combo, and gathering threat.

Right now the goal of optimizing tank play is to generate the LEAST amount of threat possible while still keeping hate, that's not okay.

---

I actually don't mind the enmity struggles. It always felt a bit silly how easily I could establish aggro, especially on 3.x Warrior, and never worry about it again. Making us decide between DPS and enmity can be engaging, though they didn't do a great job of that.

What I would like to see changed.
1: The cost of switching stance need to go. This since we do not automatically gain the "mitigation" from our tank stance and have a few skills to many that use this resource.
2: Remove the cost of onslaught or increase the potency to 200. Perhaps have it act a bit different in the two stances, in dps a potency of 250 without that enmity thing and in tank stance 150 but with an increase to the enmity.
3: Remove Shake it off and give us instead a utility skill, examples of such a skill that I can think of is. a) Increase the party dps by 5 or 10% for a duration of 20 or 10sec, some recast timer here of course. b) Reduce the party incoming damage by 10% for 15sec, and of course some recast timer. c) The war takes 50% of the targets damage while also increasing the targets damage by 5% for 10sec, and some recast timer.
4: Inner release and unchained should not share recast.
5: Increase the potency of the path combo so that it is equal to or 10 above the potency of the bb combo.
6: Since they took away flash leveling WAR might have a tp problem on lower levels, to deal with this give WAR a new skill at the same level that we gain overpower, this new skill should reduce the tp cost of overpower by 50% for 10sec and have a 60sec recast, this would help a little with tp on lower level without affecting higher level content in any significant way.

I would be so happy with stance dancing being a flat 10 rage. It just seems so stupid that it's always 50% of your meter no matter how much you have. So if you only had ten, it would be five. If can be that low, why should it go so high? This shit needs to be capped, because the current implementation is completely arbitrary. Even worse, it's not fun! It makes no sense at all. Maybe if we got a temporary crit bonus or something when switching, otherwise what's the point? It's a fun tax, and fun taxes are, ironically, not fun.

I'm starting to think that SE does not play or test their game in the slightest. I have not reached level 70 Warrior as of the writing of this comment, and I am already aware of all the problems with the job (I've been aware of them since I got Onslaught). As another side note, it completely baffled me that they rolled back the changes they did to vitality, as if they did not learn from Gordias Savage. I never did Gordias Savage back in the day, but I sure as heck heard how hardcore it was from my raiding buddies that did do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Derby_Crash

I'm starting to think that SE does not play or test their game in the slightest. I have not reached level 70 Warrior as of the writing of this comment, and I am already aware of all the problems with the job (I've been aware of them since I got Onslaught). As another side note, it completely baffled me that they rolled back the changes they did to vitality, as if they did not learn from Gordias Savage. I never did Gordias Savage back in the day, but I sure as heck heard how hardcore it was from my raiding buddies that did do it.

---

thats what i been asking myself, who sit down play it an call it better than War 2.1-3.0 who design that.. geez Warrior gamplay is really bad..feels bad

This expansion has some of the most baffling class changes I've seen in MMOs, so you guys aren't exactly alone in your confusion.

WAR is fine 6 FELLCLEAVES on deck and for free if you prep right I don't see the issue. I don't get these complaints at all. Anything else class will be broken

the core gameplay, the essence of warrior is broken an ppl got blind by the 6 fell cleves, is a very clunky class right now.
No identity besides fell cleves
No utility
Penalty on dancing an no flexibility
An lowest dps
An those 6 fell cleves don't even feel as good as it looks like, they destroy the essence of warrior when that's something that can't be touch.

They just took what ppl love the most of warrior an remove it, an I'm pretty sure than even 4 fell cleves will have been great if we get to keep war gameplay intact.

We also lost major skills an got little back , I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this hollows feelings about the class.

I don't wanna be better than PLD they suppose to be the wall tank. .the immortality tank an they got the spot they deserve
But warrior is suppose to be the aggressive tank an it feels I'm chained to a pole.. an can't get Unchained..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Derby_Crash

I'm starting to think that SE does not play or test their game in the slightest. I have not reached level 70 Warrior as of the writing of this comment, and I am already aware of all the problems with the job (I've been aware of them since I got Onslaught). As another side note, it completely baffled me that they rolled back the changes they did to vitality, as if they did not learn from Gordias Savage. I never did Gordias Savage back in the day, but I sure as heck heard how hardcore it was from my raiding buddies that did do it.

---

And then you got Shake it off, a skill that already on paper seems bad. Kinda makes me wonder if they even looked at the war skills a second time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Derby_Crash

As another side note, it completely baffled me that they rolled back the changes they did to vitality, as if they did not learn from Gordias Savage. I never did Gordias Savage back in the day, but I sure as heck heard how hardcore it was from my raiding buddies that did do it.

---

I read this post somewhere saying that one of the possible reason for the change is the new "brink of death" debuff where all you main stats gets lowered except VIT. So that means if the kept it to vit giving dmg then when a tank dies his health and dmg won't get debuff from "brink of death"

A timed damage down rebuff would solve the but calculations issue

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

Can't they find a less punishing way of dealing with this?

---

First thing what comes to my mind is to give TP penalty instead BG penalty when swapping stances or simply longer CD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PK_THUNER

I read this post somewhere saying that one of the possible reason for the change is the new "brink of death" debuff where all you main stats gets lowered except VIT. So that means if the kept it to vit giving dmg then when a tank dies his health and dmg won't get debuff from "brink of death"

---

I heard this as well, seems strange to me since they could have gone for lowering stats like attackpower instead, then whatever stat calculated that would not matter. Also keeping it as VIT for tanks would have given them an easier way to balance tank dps by simply changing how much attackpower 1 VIT should give.