Dragoons... how do you feel post 4.0?

Can't speak about raiding but DRG is very fun to play. We have so many oGCDs thanks to Mirage Dive, we're always weaving stuff.


I think the following changes would make DRG competitive but not overpowered.

-Let DFD grant Dive Ready (it's a 3min recast, so why not!? It would help with opener getting to LoTD in 30 sec instead of 70)
-Lower Mirage Dive animation lock (sorely needed)
-Let eyes be maintained even after BoTD falls off (essential for invuln phases) or at least lower recast of BoTD to 20 sec so we can use it to maintain the buff to keep eyes since losing all eyes costs us 90 seconds until we get LoTD back up.
-Lower Geirskogul recast from 35 seconds to 20 seconds.

They fought the HIGH DPS DISPARITY by making doing your rotation correctly more rewarding, there's still gonna be a gap between people that can optimize their Lotd & stuff, but it wont be as big as before.
It happened to me already to drop 4eyes on susano, not that punishing tbh.

And please, again, I'm gonna repeat myself, stop asking for more ways to obtain eyes it's gonna screw everything up, actually everything lines up, with DFD giving eyes it would be shit.
They made the basis simple, don't ask for optimization to become simple too.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:

---

- Disembowel nerf was undeserved. Add that to the fact BRD and MCH aren't top dogs anymore and your synergy (which used to be the best in the game) becomes irrelevant in front of SAM's godly damage. I'm sure they'll balance the jobs later, but still...

---

This was necessary to lower MCH and BRD utter reliance on needing DRG in party, as no other job combo relies on it. SAM and NIN have their own slashing debuff, as does WAR. MCH and BRD are both piercing but cannot debuff the mob with piercing down. So the 10% really hurt them. To compensate for us, however, SE buffed all our WS significantly to account for the difference of 5% damage to our AA and WS (FT got a huge bonus).

Quote:

---

And please, again, I'm gonna repeat myself, stop asking for more ways to obtain eyes it's gonna screw everything up, actually everything lines up, with DFD giving eyes it would be shit.

---

It takes 70 seconds from the start of the battle before we can enter LotD. Also if a boss has a long transition, we're screwed. Even DRG in the JP forum complain how punishing it is.

Yeah it's complete garbage. Like for instance, SMNs cast 2 aetherwyrm trance and they have the 2 stacks ready to summon bahamut whenever they please or it is required. Now imagine they could lose that ability because a certain timer drops. Lmao! The outrage...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

There's a macro for that!

---

This macro is very awkward. Just use this one:
/action "Dragon Sight" <Number>
Number is your party member's number. That way you only have to drag them in the party list and you will be settled. You also don't get a dashing rdm as your mate just so they jump away losing your buff.
It makes you be always in control of your dragon sight. If your partner isn't there, they aren't handling mechanics the right way. Also you don't prepull dragon sight, ever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

It takes 70 seconds from the start of the battle before we can enter LotD. Also if a boss has a long transition, we're screwed. Even DRG in the JP forum complain how punishing it is.

---

Yes, it takes 70sc, which puts your Lotd right when B4B comes out of cooldown, that's the point.

For the boss leaving when your burst is ready:
This has always been a thing for some class, the boss going away during your burst phase, thing is, it's not as punishing as it was.
Susano leaves right when you're supposed to start Lotd, yet it doesnt screw you up, like I said you just clip your Lotd and try to benefit the most of it.
You can't design a class based on some fights.

What you still don't understand is, getting more eyes would screw everything, asking for something such as a longer Botd timer would be way more relevant.
Maintaining Botd up by using it again when it's off cooldown and your timer is a 1sc is kinda easy, yet mechanicaly it's awkward.
Improving this would be way smarter than getting a retarded way of not losing your eyes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shamox

What you still don't understand is, getting more eyes would screw everything, asking for something such as a longer Botd timer would be way more relevant.
Maintaining Botd up by using it again when it's off cooldown and your timer is a 1sc is kinda easy, yet mechanicaly it's awkward.
Improving this would be way smarter than getting a retarded way of not losing your eyes.

---

Also this would allow for 1 more Nastrond per LotD maximixing the time between the Geirskogul you use to activate LotD and the Geirskogul that is after LotD.
Another good solution is making LotD refreshable and/or giving LotD a buff to jump on top of the BotD buff. Say another 15% on top of it.

Ya or they'd just put Lotd to 30sc maximum if it's too strong.

Right now it's just yeah, you're on susano and you're waiting for your timer to drop to 1 to refresh with Botd, this has nothing to do with skill or anything, it's just boring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erys

Also this would allow for 1 more Nastrond per LotD maximixing the time between the Geirskogul you use to activate LotD and the Geirskogul that is after LotD.
Another good solution is making LotD refreshable and/or giving LotD a buff to jump on top of the BotD buff. Say another 15% on top of it.

---

Refreshing LotD would be too brutal imo, but another buff on jumps is what i always thought it would do. I mean, it does empower your Geirskogul, why not empower your jump aswell ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirEnmi

Refreshing LotD would be too brutal imo, but another buff on jumps is what i always thought it would do. I mean, it does empower your Geirskogul, why not empower your jump aswell ?

---

I'll be honest with you. I was expecting the level 62 skill to be a new jump we couldn't use until level 70. And expected Sonic Thrust to be a substitute for RoT you would get at the same level as the original or something.
And it clearly is not too brutal since every melee is beating the crap out of us. Even if we had disembowel 10% back and bard and machinist in the team
We would be doing something like 4150(drg)+3400(brd)+3300(mch) for a grand total of 10850. Meanwhile a SAM, NIN MNK compo= 4800+4600+4600= 13k. We are dead weight at the moment.

I'm still gonna wait solid data for dps comparision, only numbers I've seen so far had no back up.

Yet, yeah, depending on what they're gonna do to balance the whole thing I might switch class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shamox

I'm still gonna wait solid data for dps comparision, only numbers I've seen so far had no back up.

Yet, yeah, depending on what they're gonna do to balance the whole thing I might switch class.

---

Yes this is the wiser thing to do towards the dps issue but you can always see how dragoon does against samurai on SSS. I scored 7s left on the dummy with i310, whole left side i310 with Susano wep, i310 earring bracelet and ring and i300 necklace and ring. That'd be 3537.58dps according to the calculator and I DID NOT use Dragon Sight, because I don't remember where to buy Ghysal greens x'D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erys

I'll be honest with you. I was expecting the level 62 skill to be a new jump we couldn't use until level 70. And expected Sonic Thrust to be a substitute for RoT you would get at the same level as the original or something.
And it clearly is not too brutal since every melee is beating the crap out of us. Even if we had disembowel 10% back and bard and machinist in the team
We would be doing something like 4150(drg)+3400(brd)+3300(mch) for a grand total of 10850. Meanwhile a SAM, NIN MNK compo= 4800+4600+4600= 13k. We are dead weight at the moment.

---

What about giving us back our glorious +30% dmg B4B ? plz SE :/

EDIT : just thought about something ... MNK and NIN being, like, 10% ahead of us in DPS : could it be because of the high skill speed gear ? Skill Speed affects Auto-attacks potency, and MNK and NIN both have a +15% attack speed on auto-attacks. So basically you could say that they work well with SS. What about DRG ? Well, we don't have AA boost, and we are oGCD-heavy ... this isn't a stat we work well with. What do you think about it ? (Just throwing this in like that, I don't claim that this IS the reason why DRG are doing worst than the other)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirEnmi

It reduces the first LotD proc from ~1min in fight to 30s. It IS a big deal

---

I don't see the problem with it. Actually sounds pretty nice to me considering other mdps don't take near as long to build up their mechanics for their first dmg burn. If used on cd, DFD giving dive ready would mean you get 1 extra LotD proc by 6 minutes. You would gain another extra LotD at 14 minutes. Considering fights don't typically last 14 minutes, your looking at 1 "extra" Nastrond phase per fight compared to now.

Seeing how our damage at the moment is seemingly lower than other mdps, albeit still unconfirmed and debatable this early on, this doesn't sound so unreasonable to me.

Granted, you could just buff potency on something instead, but lets face it that's just boring.

Once Omega normal drops and people can throw out lots more numbers we can see where DRG stands then. And if it does indeed become the case that we are performing lower on raid encounters than mnk and ninja still, I wouldn't be surprised if a change like dive ready on DFD came to be.

Does anyone know if there are accurate stat weights out yet? I'ma little wary of replacing any more of my left side with 310 gear when the dungeon pieces I have have crit and the pieces I'm replacing them with don't (and have more skill speed, to boot). It's getting pretty hard to double weave as it is, but SE seems determined to just shower us in skill speed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HaiHai

I don't see the problem with it. Actually sounds pretty nice to me considering other mdps don't take near as long to build up their mechanics for their first dmg burn. If used on cd, DFD giving dive ready would mean you get 1 extra LotD proc by 6 minutes. You would gain another extra LotD at 14 minutes. Considering fights don't typically last 14 minutes, your looking at 1 "extra" Nastrond phase per fight compared to now.

Seeing how our damage at the moment is seemingly lower than other mdps, albeit still unconfirmed and debatable this early on, this doesn't sound so unreasonable to me.

Granted, you could just buff potency on something instead, but lets face it that's just boring.

---

Now that i've seen what other DPS can do, I must admit that this solution could be the best for us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HaiHai

I don't see the problem with it. Actually sounds pretty nice to me considering other mdps don't take near as long to build up their mechanics for their first dmg burn. If used on cd, DFD giving dive ready would mean you get 1 extra LotD proc by 6 minutes. You would gain another extra LotD at 14 minutes. Considering fights don't typically last 14 minutes, your looking at 1 "extra" Nastrond phase per fight compared to now.

---

You are not having 100% uptime for 6 minutes long. So you are not getting that extra nastrond phase and you are exchange one extra nastrond phase that might not happen most likely for the always under Blood for blood 2 Nastronds we have now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erys

You are not having 100% uptime for 6 minutes long. So you are not getting that extra nastrond phase and you are exchange one extra nastrond phase that might not happen most likely for the always under Blood for blood 2 Nastronds we have now.

---

You would be hard pressed to not hit at least 3-4 DfD's during a raid encounter. A couple extra dive ready procs, even if you fail to hit 4 DfD's, would likely net you another LotD unless the encounter is timed to line up perfectly with boss defeat when your final LotD phase ends. But generally raid encounters last long enough to where I don't doubt you could squeeze one in.

You could still hold them for BfB if you wanted. But this is getting into theorycrafting numbers, hypotheticals and more testing than I care to deal with at this point and better suited for the actual DRG theorycrafting thread than this one.

One thing that bothers the HELL out of me is that in the FFXIV Stormblood Job Actions Trailer, the DRG activated BotD and pulled with Spineshatter Dive, did a Mirage Dive, then a Jump, then another Mirage Dive, then used Geirskogul and BAM entered LotD. This caused speculation that BoTD gave a free Eye, and Geirskogul gave a 4th eye and that LotD activated automatically upon the 4th eye opening. THen we found out later you need to acquire 4 eyes from 4 Mirage Dives and then activate with Geirskogul. Still, I wonder if the DRG in the trailer was using a debug mode, or maybe it was an earlier build. Either the early build only required 2 eyes, or the earlier build allowed you to save eyes even when BotD falls off.


They could also make it that activating BotD while BotD is already on gives you a free eye, that would be awesome as its on a 30s timer. Think of it like a free "Meditation" like for MNK. Maybe only gives a free eye outside of battle?

Well, 3.X dragoon was leagues better than this sorry excuse of what was supposed to be dragoon....I mean 70 seconds to build up life of the dragon is a killer and much more of a chore than ever before..not to mention you can forget about doing good damage seeing as we are officially hitting like a wet sponge.I'm hurt and pretty mad with some of the changes we swap out good damage for quality of life changes,I'm sorry but they need to seriously do some class rebalancing...but from all I have seen I struggle just to keep up with ninja seeing as samurai is ridiculously overpowered..not saying I don't want to try samurai but it has left me with feeling kind of bitter towards that class seeing as it got the royal treatment leaving other classes in horrible states....and poor monks...I hope they do rebalancing soon because this is just upsetting :/ dragoon by no means was the best melee but they could at least keep up with other classes in terms of output....now I just feel useless T^T

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HaiHai

Snip

---

Pushing 3 or 4 dfd during a raid encounter isn't hard, no. But don't confuse that with 100% uptime. Because sometimes you will find yourself holding jumps because the boss is not there and you just can't use that jump that just came of cd, same for SSD.
And by holding the LotD from DfD you would be holding it for 50 seconds or so. Missing a Geirskogul btw, so I don't think it's the most optimal solution.

I'd rather see potencies buffed and a buff to jumps and/or Mirages during LotD since you are squeezing at least 1 Jump during it and 2 mirage dives. That way is all tidy and lined up, plus we don't just "waste" BfB in just 1 jump and one spineshatter dive just for lulz.
Alternatively we could have WT and F&C refresh LotD and have Nastrond consume 10 seconds of it, that way we can upkeep LotD and output Nastronds galore.

Also dragoon doesn't need to be easier than it's currently, BotD is pretty straight forward since it's most of the time 30seconds. Just making LotD even easier instead of making you "think" at when to use BotD or when to push that awkwardly timed with the boss LotD is just killing the job more into braindead territory. We need more interesting mechanics not getting whatever new thing they give us and making it dumber than already is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erys

Also dragoon doesn't need to be easier than it's currently, BotD is pretty straight forward since it's most of the time 30seconds. Just making LotD even easier instead of making you "think" at when to use BotD or when to push that awkwardly timed with the boss LotD is just killing the job more into braindead territory. We need more interesting mechanics not getting whatever new thing they give us and making it dumber than already is.

---

But does difficulty equate to fun for everyone? Not that I can speak for such a large grouping of people... Anyways. I liked HW DRG as much as the next guy, but will I say that I liked managing 3 GK per minute during raids? Naw. I was playing the BoTD timer more than I was playing the game.

Just as an example, I'm sure BRD aren't happy that their damage is so much lower now, but they seem happy with the playstyle. You know what we DON'T see every 2 seconds right now? BRD threads complaining about how awful they feel. So... I mean, maybe potency buffs are all that's needed, since some DRG just liked seeing big numbers (I know I did), but that might not be all that people are bummed about. I'm leaning more towards the idea that it needs a bit more QoL love than it is wanting it to be easier, necessarily.

DRG is so punishing when you have high dps in groups. The second the boss can't be hit anymore is when I have life of the dragon ready. It's silly. Either buff the sight for less cooldown or more %. Make the eyes activate on 3 instead of 4. Idk and also the range on sight is stupidly low.

Trying to maintain eyes between pulls is extremely nerve-wracking. The only time I really ever get to see or use Life of the Dragon/Nastrond is on bosses usually, which is sad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Trying to maintain eyes between pulls is extremely nerve-wracking. The only time I really ever get to see or use Life of the Dragon/Nastrond is on bosses usually, which is sad.

---

Or when bosses are gone when you can actually use it lol

What you guys don't understand is:
Losing Lotd on a boss isnt gonna make you lose as much dps as you seems to think.
Actual problem with the DRG isnt here.

Ya don't even know what's the problem yet you want it to get solved?
https://puu.sh/wsMxx/a96ccc26b0.png

We'd need to get back disembowel to 10%, a mirage dive that we can double weave, an extra 5% on B4B would be great tbh.
Incrising dragon sight range is kinda useless, it'll still be small af and whenever you're in a duo melee the guy should have no problem sticking yo ass.
Although gettings its cooldown to 80sc just like B4B could really do the trick.

Tbh, after testing a bit, I clearly do 10% less crits, which is a lot, same thing happened once HW came out, you can't reach the cap with the actual stuff.
We might get some surprise coming with the theorycrafting in that case, crit would not be the thing anymore (for now).


tl;dr: Actual DRG dps is 95% based on your rotation, do it well and you'll have almost everything, Lotd is clearly not what you relate on to do what you can do right now, getting it to come sooner would actually make it irrelevant due to non-alignement with B4B, problems comes from the loss of crit and phleb, we'd need more dps coming from either our rotation/ or our timer such as B4B or Dragon sight, ajusting some potencies could do the trick too.
Getting a good dps is way easier that it has ever been, optimization on the other hand is clearly harder than before, don't make it easier it's good the way it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shamox

-

---

It doesn't really matter if losing nastronds is a big or small dps loss, I feel the more pressing issue that is bothering a lot of people is that the vast majority of other DPS classes do not have to jump through such obnoxious hoops in order to get to the key part of their damage. We are expected to try to maintain eyes through the use of refreshing BotD but it is extremely unwieldy, makes me anxious as fuck, and is just all around clunky.

Dragon sights range is a legitimate issue, the other melee should not have to, and as more demanding mechanics arise, will not be able to stick on your ass all the time (or vice versa). There is also the problem with bosses that are extremely large. In 4-man dungeons even some mid-size bosses are too big for you to tether to the tank. Furthermore as you stated, currently it doesn't line up with much.

I completely agree that adding more means to achieve jump ready is not the solution here. Potency increases and returning the old disembowel figures would help. A way to retain eyes that isn't as clumsy as refreshing BotDs manual cooldown would go a long way.

Perhaps a skill that would allow DRG to either double (in the vein of manafication) or immediately generate 4 eyes on a long a cooldown would help by allowing us to have Nastronds in our opener without breaking the rotation later down the line.

Overall, for me, the poor performance of DRG compared to other mDPS was just the icing. My biggest issue is that indeed the job has been simplified in some aspects versus how it was in 3.x, but the 'challenge' that remains with this new DRG doesn't FEEL good. I don't feel rewarded when I'm playing the class well, and the kind of management on 4.x DRG for optimization is just clunky, and doesn't flow in a good way. It just isn't fun.

Idk how you guys can say you liked drg 3.0 and not like 4.0
It's the same, we have moved from Geirskogul management to eyes management. It's the exact same thing now.

Seriously, just give DRG a separate skill named LotD. When you have all 4 dragon eyes you can cast LotD to make the phase transition. Sometimes you have 4 eyes and you are stuck with jump or spineshatter waiting for your Geirskogul to come on CD. Why the hell does it have to be Geirskogul the skill that triggers the phase transition? It's almost as inconvenient as losing all dragon eyes when you lose BotD.
Was planning to main DRG this expansion (first job to level to 70) but no.....freaking.....way. Convoluted as hell, obnoxious, has more positionals (and they still have the same ridiculous potency loss), non intuitive, long ass OGCDs (hello mirage dive) and the obnoxious jumps still locking you which makes even worse the more positionals part, and going through all this only to hit like a wet noodle? Lmao.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gallus

Sometimes you have 4 eyes and you are stuck with jump or spineshatter waiting for your Geirskogul to come on CD.

---

How exactly do you arrive to this situation? I have never ever waited for geirskogul to come of cd when jump or ssd while 4 eyes ready. I'm genuinely curious.

You can still jump up to 13sc before geitrskogul comes off cd too.

Overall drg feels the same, just clunkier. That being said, we had a timer in 3.0 but in 4.0 we have a timer on top of a timer. They should just make Botd a resource bar. BotD, wheeling, and fang add to the bar, mirage dive and GK take from it. That way the point is to get a full bar and eyes to activate LotD, which would still be on a timer. The timer is a good mechanic but it's like the dungeon/raid creators don't talk to the job creators. I don't know, it's pretty sad that you have to be a master goon to come close to the dps of a mediocre sam.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

On paper DRG would seem better than NIN, given how the potencies are layed out. I mean Full Thrust is huge, we have Jump (250), SSD(200) DFD(300), Geirskogul (220), Nastrond (330), and Mirage Dive x2 (200) oGCDs. We have so much oGCD damage, not to mention BoTD which buffs Jump damage by 30%. Though maybe NIN comes out ahead from auto-attacks from skillspeed/Huton, and full time +20% damage from Dripping Blades II.

---

The worst part is, that guy was right. Drg is at the bottom of the pack just above the 2 phyiscal ranged.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erys

How exactly do you arrive to this situation? I have never ever waited for geirskogul to come of cd when jump or ssd while 4 eyes ready. I'm genuinely curious.

---

The CD on your jumps and GK are staggered after the first LotD. Also doing mechanics (getting trapped in a bloody rock, for example) can get them out of whack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gravton

Overall drg feels the same, just clunkier. That being said, we had a timer in 3.0 but in 4.0 we have a timer on top of a timer. They should just make Botd a resource bar. BotD, wheeling, and fang add to the bar, mirage dive and GK take from it. That way the point is to get a full bar and eyes to activate LotD, which would still be on a timer.

---

While I'm not sure about being a resource, I do kind of agree that this current timer on top of a timer situation and the lack of any real interaction with BotD makes the mechanic seem kind of pointless. It seems to exist just to penalise downtime and literally nothing else. If you removed it from the game entirely and gave jumps a flat potency boost, the class would play no differently outside of hitting the button once at the start of an encounter.

I miss HW Dragoon. The one that could actually do damage.

Note to all DRGs as well - if you're partnered with a RDM in dungeons, may as well tether the tank. The RDM movement gimmicks are perfectly designed to make DRGs rage.

Dragon Sight Tether needs WAY more range, and a less flash graphic so it's not such a visual distraction.

Our AoE situation is frustrating with respect to keeping BotD up. A complete Doom Spike + Sonic Thrust combo should add 3 seconds to BotD or something. SOMETHING. My god.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by knotwrite

The CD on your jumps and GK are staggered after the first LotD. Also doing mechanics (getting trapped in a bloody rock, for example) can get them out of whack.

---

You can go as far as 6 LotD phases without the stagger thing at least on a dummy. I might not be at current "BiS" and therefore not having a so problematic sks, but it should be that big of a deal.
As for the rock trap in Susano, time to start using both Elusive Jump, Diversion and telling your OT to git gud. It targets the 4th in the aggro list, so you want to be the lowest of the lowest and have one of the healers be the 4th.

Holy shit, no wonder it seems like in some groups i'm constantly being rocked and in others i'm never getting it.