So why play anything other then paladin?

Of course not, but WAR players were content with the situation in 3.0. They should not have been, they should have been asking for themselves to be nerfed like some SCH players were.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

To be blunt I have no sympathy for WAR players. I'm only really upset for DRK because they're getting shafted out of the blue, though I think most of us knew it was coming eventually.

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That's just it though. Why would there be a "had it coming"? DRK has been desirable only as imbalanced fight design favored them by through increasedly weighing damage output and through the situationally massive advantage of a spare magic mitigation CD (e.g. A4S). That's a failure on the raid's part or in the critical issue of creating obvious niches of play or counterplay (e.g. anti-magic tank), not a failure to balance the job across a general variety of content. Even Paladin had fights that gave Shelltron power alike to an "exploit". So why is DRK being nerfed? And why now of all times?

They stated a desire to raise the functionality of the less generally desireable tanks towards their more desirable counterparts. Instead, one has made the others noncompetitive options, while actually reducing the intuitive, versatile, and flexible functionality of the job they were using as an example and gimping the output of another.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

"had it coming"?

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That's not what I meant at all, I meant many of us could see that SE has no ideas on how to rebalance the jobs other than making DRK suck in comparison to PLD. After all, on the defensive side DRK is basically PLD for magic instead of physical (and more buttons in 3.0)

Those of us who play both sort of knew that eventually this would happen, we certainly didn't think it was a good idea, just inevitable because the concept of PLD/DRK is so badly flawed.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

That's not what I meant at all, I meant many of us could see that SE has no ideas on how to rebalance the jobs other than making DRK suck in comparison to PLD. After all, on the defensive side DRK is basically PLD for magic instead of physical (and more buttons in 3.0)

Those of us who play both sort of knew that eventually this would happen, we certainly didn't think it was a good idea, just inevitable because the concept of PLD/DRK is so badly flawed.

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Ahh, understood now. My mistake.

Personally, even playing all three heavily, I never saw anything that I thought "you know, this is probably gonna get ****ed over next expansion." I guess I still had hope? Shame on me. Well, I have been proven wrong.

PLD got shit on the entire duration of 3.0. They get their time to shine now. I don't feel bad for WAR/DRK one bit. Especially WAR.

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

PLD got shit on the entire duration of 3.0. They get their time to shine now. I don't feel bad for WAR/DRK one bit. Especially WAR.

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Crapping on a class is not the way to do an expansion. They were aiming for balance and missed the mark entirely. PLD was only 5% behind DRK DPS anyways before, now PLD is 25% ahead of the other tanks on top of having an entire buffet of cds and utilities.

Simply turning PLD into the god tank like it's some sort of 'you get your turn next' system as if we are in pre-school is the dumbest way to balance things.

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

Crapping on a class is not the way to do an expansion. They were aiming for balance and missed the mark entirely. PLD was only 5% behind DRK DPS anyways before, now PLD is 25% ahead of the other tanks on top of having an entire buffet of cds and utilities.

Simply turning PLD into the god tank like it's some sort of 'you get your turn next' system as if we are in pre-school is the dumbest way to balance things.

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100% that, no matter how you look at it, PLD will be ahead and nothing significant changed throughout the media build. I'm really disappointed and the "calm down!" didn't help either because it's still just like we feared it would be. :|

And seriously whats up with all the hate here for Warriors? It's not like we balance the game... go complain to SE instead of going all "You had it coming!". I always hoped they would buff PLD but not nerf warrior to the ground and make pld god tier while doing that.

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

Crapping on a class is not the way to do an expansion. They were aiming for balance and missed the mark entirely. PLD was only 5% behind DRK DPS anyways before, now PLD is 25% ahead of the other tanks on top of having an entire buffet of cds and utilities.

Simply turning PLD into the god tank like it's some sort of 'you get your turn next' system as if we are in pre-school is the dumbest way to balance things.

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Exactly. Anyone with this train of thought isn't helping a thing as quite frankly, it's rather backwards.

We should want all tanks to be good, not a cycling "flavor of the month" scenario.

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

Exactly. Anyone with this train of thought isn't helping a thing as quite frankly, it's rather backwards.

We should want all tanks to be good, not a cycling "flavor of the month" scenario.

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Especially since balance changes come very slowly to tanks, it's more of a "flavor of the next 2 years" scenario seeing as how PLD was allowed to remain how it was for all of HW.

The healers got their own special thread with direct dev feedback for the WHM thing. It seems tanks are too used to being punched in the face all the time, it's literally our jobs, and we have so far not raised any kind of stink which is why we never get any real balance changes in a timely manner.

Nobody ever made fun of Plds except for sheeps who need to be told how to play and buttheads. Drk was never that far ahead of Pld(aside from 3.0, there was less gap I think around the 3.2? buffs IDR) and was mostly picked over double War because of the non stacking utlity and LB nerf. They took magic, it can be blocked now shelltron, bulwark, and passage of arms are dank. They took reprisals and gave it to everyone. Cant cry over delirium because they took every tanks dmg debuff, which hurts War the most. Pld should now do more damage than Drk. Nobody WANTED Pld to be crap. We wanted things to be close enough to where the average joe wouldnt go, "Naw b0ss that jobs junk". Which near the end of creator it was fine till 12s. All your doing by acting like this is replacing the buttheads that didnt understand anything with Plds as them now.

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

PLD got shit on the entire duration of 3.0. They get their time to shine now. I don't feel bad for WAR/DRK one bit. Especially WAR.

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Disgusting mindset.

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

PLD got shit on the entire duration of 3.0. They get their time to shine now. I don't feel bad for WAR/DRK one bit. Especially WAR.

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I liked your post so that I could unlike it.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

Of course not, but WAR players were content with the situation in 3.0. They should not have been, they should have been asking for themselves to be nerfed like some SCH players were.

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I don't know about others, but I think quite a lot of people played war/drk because they perform well in 3.x, and those of us who did will just switch to whichever tanks perform well in 4.x.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Doesn't really matter. Mitigation overkill is a thing, just like overhealing. If PLD can comfortably survive everything in Sword Oath (and its skillset seems like it should be fine for that, especially since Sheltron works in Sword Oath and you can block magic) and do more DPS/have more utility at the same time, why bother taking a tank with higher mitigation?

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Mitigation overkill isn't really a concern when it comes to "free" mitigation though (as in mitigation skills that don't cost you any dps loss). Ignoring inner beast war now has rampart (90s), thrill (120s), vengeance (120s), and holmgang (180s).

For example if we take a12s without phase skips, with a rampart war can tank the whole fight safely without defiance:

holmgang first buster in p1,
rampart vengeance the second buster in p1,
holmgang the buster after stasis 1,
vengeance rampart the buster after stasis 2,
thrill rampart the buster during timegate,
holmgang the buster after inception 1,
vengeance rampart the buster after inception 2,
holmgang the first chastening heat.

I don't think even drk can do the whole fight as MT without grit. Of course this is not a relevant discussion since it's an old raid while I'm talking about new skills, but the addition of rampart makes war's defensive kit outside defiance pretty damn solid. Pld might be better depending on how fast the sword oath gauge fills up (for shelltron).

Just as I suspected, SE has no clue how to balance tanks. Playing since launch and seeing PLD be king again just proves that. This really pisses me off because I love tanking and I've been tanking since 2.1 but now that I am being penalized for stance switching and shitty new skills (onslaught 20 rage, infuriate only in battle, upheavel spirits within clone, shake it off). I'm switching to RDM. Now you got 1 less experienced tank in DF and you can thank SE for that. :mad:

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

Once again another thread is made using data from the media tour. Yes, I'm aware of the spreadsheet that showed Paladins having a higher overall Potency. But that's kind of pointless now considering redditers are now picking apart the actual patch itself as we speak. The doom and gloom is pretty silly when the data is about to be changed any hour now.

Anyone that thinks Paladins will retain the highest DPS of the three tanks when the servers go live hasn't been playing this game for very long. [Posted by a career Paladin.]

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Data is from the full release patch notes. There's a link to the job guide which lists the changes.

TL;DR Paladin is king, DRK and WAR get the boot.

DRK's the only tank that doesn't suffer a damage penalty in tank stance. War...Well they wanted to gloat about their fell cleaves so now that's their goal. Fell Cleave for days... Sounds like a case of be careful what you wish for

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Originally Posted by DJMau

DRK's the only tank that doesn't suffer a damage penalty in tank stance. War...Well they wanted to gloat about their fell cleaves so now that's their goal. Fell Cleave for days... Sounds like a case of be careful what you wish for

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It's not even a fell cleave. It's a 380 potency attack unaffected by Grit.

The bigger #'s you see are from Dark Arts, which add +140 to whatever weaponskill you use it for. Excepting a minor interaction with crit and maybe direct hit liking bigger base #'s, there's no real reason to DA the damn thing. If anything it's more optimal to DA souleaters if you're in grit for the tiny extra bit of HP you get back from it.

The completely gutted DRK. We're slowing down massively (losing all our oGCDs that made the class FAST). Our rotation is becoming 1-2-3 x 5, Delirium, 1-2-3 x 5, Bloodspiller. You can get a few extra bloodspillers here and there with Price/Weapon but outside of that... ehh.

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Originally Posted by DJMau

DRK's the only tank that doesn't suffer a damage penalty in tank stance. War...Well they wanted to gloat about their fell cleaves so now that's their goal. Fell Cleave for days... Sounds like a case of be careful what you wish for

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Yeah except DRK got its rotation changed to be brain dead and it got the biggest nerfs from the 3 tanks so yeah...

Oh yeah and Defiance damage penalty was reduced from 25% to 20% so that's actually not the case anymore with Storm's Eye now giving the +20% maim damage for 30 seconds.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

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If they keep consistent, paladin should generate 5 oath every 2.24 seconds in Sword Oath (not counting Skillspeed, haste buffs, etc). I don't think they're going to hand out different sword speeds or shield strengths at max level anymore because Gordian was the last sword that wasn't 2.24 and Gordian/heavens were the last non-kite shields. That's ~22.5 seconds per Sheltron assuming you don't delay any autos for movement, Holy Spirit, etc. I haven't tanked anything in a bit so I don't remember exactly how much mitigation kite shields capped out at (28%?) but I expect Sheltron early on at least to be ~20% mitigation every 20 or so seconds.

edited because I'm retarded

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

If they keep consistent, paladin should generate 5 oath every 2.24 seconds in Sword Oath (not counting Skillspeed, haste buffs, etc). I don't think they're going to hand out different sword speeds or shield strengths at max level anymore because Gordian was the last sword that wasn't 2.24 and Gordian/heavens were the last non-kite shields. That's ~45 seconds per Sheltron assuming you don't delay any autos for movement, Holy Spirit, etc. I haven't tanked anything in a bit so I don't remember exactly how much mitigation kite shields capped out at (28%?) but I expect Sheltron early on at least to be ~20% mitigation every 40 or so seconds.

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If it's 5 oath per 2.24s wouldn't it be 22.4s per sheltron? I thought it required 50 gauge. That's actually pretty damn fast even at 45s cd, it's not like there's anything else you'd use your oath gauge on (intervention is for when the other tank's tanking so it's kinda interchangeable with sheltron). I guess it's offset by the fact that it can't block multi hit tank busters or cleaves that follow a buster immediately, unlike other cds.

Edit: nevermind, just saw your edit lol.

I was on the fence before about DRK or PLD, as I was main PLD before HW and switched to DRK with HW... but before the patch notes I was definitely still going to tank.

Now I'm seriously considering changing to RDM and saying screw the queues to spite SE for horrible decision-making.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Edit: nevermind, just saw your edit lol.

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yeah I forgot it was 50/action. Not really calling it as good/bad (seems bretty good though, a slightly weaker IB), just calling it what it is. Intervention might see some use while MTing though. Mechanics like missiles in A1S or sizzlebeams in a7s aren't that uncommon, and helping out with them might be good to do sometimes. Another example would be a shared tank buster where your sentinel is enough to survive, you can give the other tank 30% mitigation.

The DRK changes along with the overall nerfing of tanks is just awful.

I really loved the DRK class, the story, the gameplay. I don't know whether to ragequit the game or just play Samurai and Ninja only now.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

I was on the fence before about DRK or PLD, as I was main PLD before HW and switched to DRK with HW... but before the patch notes I was definitely still going to tank.

Now I'm seriously considering changing to RDM and saying screw the queues to spite SE for horrible decision-making.

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If the heal requirements are as little as before, just go 3-4 DPS via PF instead of 1/2/1 via DF.

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Originally Posted by Falar

The DRK changes along with the overall nerfing of tanks is just awful.

I really loved the DRK class, the story, the gameplay. I don't know whether to ragequit the game or just play Samurai and Ninja only now.

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I don't blame you. I think alot of people are going to be confused about what to do too. I didnt feel this demotivated even at the 3.0 content lull.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

I was on the fence before about DRK or PLD, as I was main PLD before HW and switched to DRK with HW... but before the patch notes I was definitely still going to tank.

Now I'm seriously considering changing to RDM and saying screw the queues to spite SE for horrible decision-making.

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I, too, was a PLD in 2.0 and then when HW came out was very excited to play DRK and switched and loved the class.

If I continue playing the game I will never touch a tank to spite SE for ruining what was good, they had it so that tanking was actually fun in 3.xx.

Well, I was already planning on playing PLD and WAR more equally just because invisible shield glamour is now a thing, so... I guess I chose a good time to play PLD more? O_o

Even so, I can't say I'm thrilled at the idea of ditching my WAR roots entirely for a monotonous tank meta. I'll ultimately cap out all my tanks at 70, but that's just all the more reason I'm keeping my fingers crossed for actual balance by the next patch.

And as much as I want to level RDM first out of spite, my friends still need a tank for MSQ. Furthermore, they're too used to seeing me as a formally dressed yandere cat girl, so I better cling to my axe!

But if it'll help send Square a message, I'll avoid PUGing as a tank at least... :p

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

Exactly. Anyone with this train of thought isn't helping a thing as quite frankly, it's rather backwards.

We should want all tanks to be good, not a cycling "flavor of the month" scenario.

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Players of X bad class: "Y is too strong, we are too weak, fix it please"
Players of Y: "It's fine, everything is fine, you have strengths and weaknesses"
Change happens:
Y: "HOLY FUCK X IS GOD CLASS WE SUCK"
X: "It's our turn to shine, enjoy the dust!"

It's like a css template for balance discussion in MMOs. You're right; it should be the goal of everyone to achieve balance. But, unless you were actively fighting for it while you were on top, you cannot legitimately denigrate people who berate you for complaining when the situation is reversed.

If there are warriors and darks who were actively advocating for tank balance in 2.0, more power to you; I do hope it gets fixed.

Because I want to zoro slash things.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Players of X bad class: "Y is too strong, we are too weak, fix it please"
Players of Y: "It's fine, everything is fine, you have strengths and weaknesses"
Change happens:
Y: "HOLY FUCK X IS GOD CLASS WE SUCK"
X: "It's our turn to shine, enjoy the dust!"

It's like a css template for balance discussion in MMOs. You're right; it should be the goal of everyone to achieve balance. But, unless you were actively fighting for it while you were on top, you cannot legitimately denigrate people who berate you for complaining when the situation is reversed.

If there are warriors and darks who were actively advocating for tank balance in 2.0, more power to you; I do hope it gets fixed.

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There were plenty of Warriors and DRKs in the past expansion that advocated for tank balance. In contrast, I think your example is actually reversed and currently false in your original post.
I experienced plenty of PLDs in 3.x that were in plain denial about their Job's shortcomings, while I saw plenty other WAR's and DRK's discuss and emphasize PLD's shortcoming, increasing the general awareness about it. It was actually rare to see a DRK/WAR completely ignorant about PLD being left behind in 3.x .

Or to express it in your kind of example:

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DRK/WAR: PLD is weak for these and these reasons.
PLD: Shut up, my class is fine!
Change happens:
DRK/WAR: "HOLY FUCK PLD IS GOD CLASS WE SUCK"
PLD: "It's our turn to shine, enjoy the dust!"

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In the end, it wont change much for me personally. If PLD is indeed OP, I will switch to PLD while I complain regularily about DRK/WAR until they get fixed as well.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

1st point, No one would ever want to do 6 steel cyclones as long as We have decimate.
2nd point, you cannot achieve more than 3 steel cyclones or inner beasts in a beserk window. It is gated by unleash the best skill which is only available in dleverance.
3rd point, it's still. It going to be practical to do 6 fell cleave or decimates as you will miss out on an upheaval which is your highest gauge to potency attack.Rotation will be 5.

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Assuming you mean Unchained, you can get 6 steel cyclones OR 6 inner beasts in the 20 seconds during unchained, provided your GCD is <= 2.45 seconds

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Originally Posted by Winstonthethird

Assuming you mean Unchained, you can get 6 steel cyclones OR 6 inner beasts in the 20 seconds during unchained, provided your GCD is <= 2.45 seconds

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Steel cyclone costs 50 gauge, you can't use inner release (which halves the cost) in defiance.

PLD for life

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Originally Posted by DJMau

DRK's the only tank that doesn't suffer a damage penalty in tank stance. War...Well they wanted to gloat about their fell cleaves so now that's their goal. Fell Cleave for days... Sounds like a case of be careful what you wish for

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This is completely untrue. Grit lowers your damage by 20%, just because Darkside is also 20% up doesn't mean you don't suffer a penalty. When you aren't in Grit, you're still going to have Darkside on so you're still losing that 20% of what you could be doing.

So we lived in a world where it was only ever worth playing drk and war and no one complained.
Now paladin is quite good and the others, while maybe worse, can tank just fine, and everyone i loosing their minds.

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Originally Posted by QuinRaines

This is completely untrue. Grit lowers your damage by 20%, just because Darkside is also 20% up doesn't mean you don't suffer a penalty. When you aren't in Grit, you're still going to have Darkside on so you're still losing that 20% of what you could be doing.

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Its worth noting that these are not additive. Penalties to your damage are applied before bonuses. So if you do 100 units of damage, in grit you do 80 units of damage. The extra 20% damage you gain from darkside then applies to your 80 units of damage (adding 16 to bring you to 96 units of damage).

Its like this for all the tanks in the game, so even with damage buffs none of them are truly 'not' taking a penalty.

Stuff like this makes me laugh. Let PLDs have their time in the sun. They've spend the last 3-4 years being belittled and ridiculed for choosing "the under dog" Job, while WARs strutted around, and later DRK stole main tank out from under them. You know what people said to PLD mains when they complained about this? "Switch to a real tank." How you can expect anyone to have any sympathy after that kind of nonsense completely amazes me.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Its worth noting that these are not additive. Penalties to your damage are applied before bonuses. So if you do 100 units of damage, in grit you do 80 units of damage. The extra 20% damage you gain from darkside then applies to your 80 units of damage (adding 16 to bring you to 96 units of damage).

Its like this for all the tanks in the game, so even with damage buffs none of them are truly 'not' taking a penalty.

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Right, very true. I just intended to point out how comparing a DRK in Grit + Darkside to one with nothing is just not valid, since Darkside should be up 100% of the time especially with its changes.

One minor thing I'm annoyed about are the Stun skills. Both WAR and DRK lost theirs and are forced to crossclass Low Blow to have a Stun. Meanwhile, PLD still has their Shield Bash. Yes, it's a tiny thing, but it tends to be small things like that that ends up annoying me ^^;

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Originally Posted by Faytte

So we lived in a world where it was only ever worth playing drk and war and no one complained.

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oh shut up lol

you obviously never played 2.0 where groups would take two paladins for every raid group xD

people are always going to complain whenever paladin is best because HG is a stupid good niche ability and paladins have a ridiculous amount of utility compared to other tanks. people don't want to play WAR because they aren't happy with it and they are underwhelmed with DRK.

and thats coming from someone who played war in 2.0 when it was "trash" and drk at launch when it was "useless" just in case anyone else wants to push that sob story