Votekick reloaded

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Originally Posted by Miste

The truth is none of this has anything to do with the topic.

You can easily convey your disagreement with OP's post without resorting to putting down certain nationality groups no matter how "true" you think it is.

Not to mention that unless you do a research study between the different nationality servers to get factual statistics then your "truth" holds as much water as a glass with a huge hole in it.

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it is pretty true, I wish i stayed on tonberry with my G/F she had more fun in the game. NA servers are rude and disorganized, people berate others, and assume the worst. JP try to communicate fix issues, and just try to have fun. No parser shi, no rude comments, no "i don't like you so /kick" they typically do a 3 wipe rule then vote abandon.. no blame game or anything. Do they have trolls? ya.. but it very rare to find one.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

all that is true actually. jp have a thread someplace, it is a "problematic player" thread. Like people who record with out permission, people who go too far against the group.

JP try to solve problems, not berate people. Something NA players should start doing. :/ it is a basic thing that takes lil to no time.

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TBH having a witch hunt thread and making fun of them behind closed doors doesn't seem to be any better unless you mean something else but that seems to be what it is? Actually seems worse to me. Even going as far as telling other people to BL them so they can't get anything done. Hooo boy. It's like faking nice during the group but in reality they gossip about them later when they aren't there. Not that no one else does that but still.

I can't say I agree. I've had many match parties where people have logged off. Without the vote kick, we'd have been stuck either doing it with 2 or 3 people, or leaving and having to wait 30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Technically it does, as we're discussing behaviour in-game and someone brought up a comparison between the two regarding the need for such an option as specified by OP.

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Someone brought it up, but it wasn't necessary.

Behavior in-game is behavior in-game. It doesn't matter what server, nationality, or region the players are in or from because all people all over the world have the capacity to behave in all ways imaginable.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I didn't "put down any nationality" either, I pointed out that player behaviour is, on average, better on one set of datacentres than another, as anyone who has experienced both sides of the coin will tell you. I couldn't care less if you choose not to believe it, that's your prerogative.

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Nationality maybe wasn't the best word I admit, so instead of that then "regions" (I was just trying not to use specific region names like NA/EU/JP or anything because no matter which way you claimed your biased statement I would have called you out on it; which I explain at the * statement)

You did. You attribute certain negative aspects to certain regions based on your own personal experiences; problem is one person's experiences don't reveal the whole picture. Even a handful of people's experiences don't reveal the whole picture. You would need a way more comprehensive analysis with a way bigger sample size to see even half the picture.

Of course I am not going to believe you. Who would? You have no factual evidence to back up your so called "truth" except your own subjective opinions.

* Just like I wouldn't believe anyone who claimed that the region I play on was better than the others. No proof either way. So it is pointless and just comes off rude that you would label certain regions as lesser than others due to arbitrary personal experiences.

So if you are going to say something like this:

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

It's the truth, no matter how much you may not like to hear it; in terms of behaviour, attitude, and overall ability, JP is better than EU/ NA.

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You wrote this as a claim of fact. You didn't say "I believe" or "In my opinion"

I am going to wait for you to present your evidence proving what you claim here. It isn't about just "not believing you" if you are going to say something like this then don't be surprised if someone challenges you for factual proof.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

it is pretty true

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Prove it with factual statistics outside of your own personal experiences. I wouldn't see how you could though since you don't work at SE and only they have full access to everything that goes on in their servers.

This is like, what, the 5th or 6th thread on this in the last week?

The same things are being said in all the threads. Could the vote kick function be a little more clear cut in terms of its usage and purpose? Yes. Will it happen though? Probably not, especially considering this problem ssems to lie primarily with Western servers and not JP ones.

There will always be people that abuse the system at the end of the day. It sucks that there's a crappy side to the player base but it exists in all games. Just be glad you don't have to eat a penalty and move on.

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Originally Posted by Miste

snip snip

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Again, I honestly do not care whether or not you or anyone else believes me, nor am I in any mood to argue over petty semantics with another NA player whose pride got hurt because I said JP players have better manners and an overall higher skill level. I know it's the truth, anyone who has ventured into a JP datacentre know it's the truth, but if there are players who want to pretend otherwise, far be it from me to deny them.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Again, I honestly do not care whether or not you believe me, nor am I in any mood to argue over petty semantics with another NA player whose pride got hurt because I said JP players have better manners and an overall higher skill level. I know it's the truth, anyone who has ventured into a JP datacentre know it's the truth, but if there are players who want to pretend otherwise, far be it from me to deny them.

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It's not semantics. I am calling on you to prove this "truth" you keep claiming as fact.

So since you obviously cannot prove it, I guess you can stop making subjective false claims now? :)

Also, what pride? I told you already if your claim had been the opposite and you said NA/EU was better than JP I would have STILL called you out on it for making baseless claims.

What region I am part of makes no difference to my objection of your so called "truth"; so no you didn't "hurt my pride" lol you are giving yourself WAY too much credit here.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Snip.

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Not trying to start arguments here, but isn't it just generally acknowledged that JP overall has a politer player base compared to NA/EU mainly due to cultural differences? Vaguely remember there being a thread related to this a week or two ago.

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Originally Posted by Miste

It's not semantics. I am calling on you to prove this "truth" you keep claiming as fact.

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Your previous posts were very much semantics, and you are aware demanding statistics from me doesn't make me any less right either?

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So since you obviously cannot prove it, I guess you can stop making subjective false claims now? :)

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By the same token, should you not be providing proof that my claims are false before making such a statement? Statistics? Research?

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so no you didn't "hurt my pride" lol you are giving yourself WAY too much credit here

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This might have more credit had you not been hounding my previous posts in a dogged attempt to prove yourself right when I've already expressed I do not care.

If you always look at the surface of things, you will not see what's underneath. This holds true for any region and it since this is an mmorpg, a cultural difference will either fit you conveniently or not, all of this at surface level.

To be fair, we had a huge issue in ffxi with jp players taking na players with them on boss runs and then booting them before loot would drop, which is one of the reasons you cannot kick someone when something is in the loot pool here. NA players didn't have that much of an issue with since reputations spread quickly among the NA playerbase. One guy on our server couldn't even get people to lvl with him his rep was so bad. Not to mention the "English? No thanks" problems.

So stating that JP players are just overall better is not really that true. people everywhere are jerks, it just depends on who you encounter and your own bias that allows you to see one as being superior to the other.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Your previous posts were very much semantics, and you are aware demanding statistics from me doesn't make me any less right either?

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If you can't prove a statement is "true" or "false" then naturally it would be "not proven" so it does make your statement "less" right. Although...less right sounds weird. I would say it makes your statement incorrect until proven otherwise, and you've yet to prove otherwise when asked (because you actually have no way to prove it).

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

By the same token, should you not be providing proof that my claims are false before making such a statement? Statistics? Research?

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I am not the one claiming one region is better than the other. You are.

My claim is: no one can claim one region is better since none of us have all the information needed to claim that.

In simple terms: all regions are neutral because there is no factual statistical proof one is better than another.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

This might have more credit had you not been hounding my previous posts in a dogged attempt to prove yourself right when I've already expressed I do not care.

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This might have more credit had you stopped responding to me...you know if you don't care then why are you replying to me still?

PS. I'm not hounding you. If you don't want people to reply to things you say then don't say them in a public forum :/

So if someone decides to be antagonistic and troll the group, we should have to abandon the dungeon and give up our current progress rather than just kick them and replace them with someone who is more cooperative? No thanks.

How vote kick can be unfair/abused (real story):
- Running The Aery using lvling roulette as a WAR ilvl125
- Ran all dungeon until last boss without any death or problems just reeeeally slow AF (nobody says a word until that moment)
- We die first time because dps dont manage to kill the purple circle that lifts off and kills a player... second time during Nidhogg add phase
- Healer starts saying tank is undergeared that's why we're dying during ADD PHASE
- I turn on ACT and parser and don't say a word because who cares let's just kill this boss
- I realize that both DPS are doing same damage as my WAR... in tank stance... healer is doing 0.0 dps
- We die again
- Running again to face boss I realize I get vote kicked

So in the end about an hour lost for almost no xp and got kicked for unfair reasons. Learned that I'm too naive and a 'good guy' trying to give the other players an opportunity, next time is vote kick first 5 mins someone sucks.

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Originally Posted by Miste

If you can't prove a statement is...

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...what utter nonsense. So every as of yet unproven scientific theory is wrong, in your eyes?

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I am not the one claiming one region is better than the other. You are.

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You're claiming I am wrong based on a lack of statistical evidence. If statistical evidence is all that matters in proving something right, where is your evidence that my claims are false? You have none. Ergo, by the same logic, you are also wrong.

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This might have more credit had you stopped responding to me...you know if you don't care then why are you replying to me still?

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Because of your insistence that I do so?

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Originally Posted by Kaltostate

How vote kick can be unfair/abused (real story):
- Running The Aery using lvling roulette as a WAR ilvl125
- Ran all dungeon until last boss without any death or problems just reeeeally slow AF (nobody says a word until that moment)
- We die first time because dps dont manage to kill the purple circle that lifts off and kills a player... second time during Nidhogg add phase
- Healer starts saying tank is undergeared that's why we're dying during ADD PHASE
- I turn on ACT and parser and don't say a word because who cares let's just kill this boss
- I realize that both DPS are doing same damage as my WAR... in tank stance... healer is doing 0.0 dps
- We die again
- Running again to face boss I realize I get vote kicked

So in the end about an hour lost for almost no xp and got kicked for unfair reasons. Learned that I'm too naive and a 'good guy' trying to give the other players an opportunity, next time is vote kick first 5 mins someone sucks.

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I think where you went wrong was not saying anything. You can't say anything that would explicitly indicate you're parsing, but simply tell the healer to help break the DPS out of Sable Orb and say the adds are dying too slow and ask the DPS to pick it up. You don't need to be rude about it, but in not saying anything, they probably just accepted what the healer said without question.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

...what utter nonsense. So every as of yet unproven scientific theory is wrong, in your eyes?

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Unproven scientific theory is just.... unproven scientific theory. Why would I think it "wrong" when it is "unproven"?

It is unproven until someone proves or disproves it. You know the definition of "theory" right?

Do you believe everything someone says or writes with no proof then??

I mean I could write up a theory saying that 20 billion light years away in the universe there is a bubble of space-time that is a replica of our Milky Way galaxy that is actually time distorted and the replica of Earth in that space-time bubble is younger and only at like 300 A.D. and is following an alternate reality to our Earth.

Am I correct??? Should people blindly believe me?? Or is it simply a theory that is unproven since no one can prove it true or false?

Only SE can attempt to prove your claim because only they actually have full access to their game/servers/community; so its the same problem where it can't be proven by just me or you and I don't think SE would bother with such a thing either.

I mean I don't get it, you are actually saying you believe everything you hear?

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

You're claiming I am wrong based on a lack of statistical evidence. If statistical evidence is all that matters in proving something right, where is your evidence that my claims are false? You have none. Ergo, by the same logic, you are also wrong.

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It's not about being right or wrong like you keep latching onto. I am saying you can't make the the claims you are making because you have no proof to back it up. There is no way to prove it so you can't claim it. That is the last time I am going to tell you this.

If no one can prove that one region is better or worse than another that means you can't make the claim you made. Just as I couldn't claim NA/EU data centers is better than JP data centers...I can't prove it so why would I say it? For the last time, my stance is no one can say one way or another. The data centers are neutral until proven otherwise by real statistics.

You keep trying to turn this around on me, but simple fact is you still haven't provided the proof to your initial claim.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Because of your insistence that I do so?

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How can I force you to reply? If you don't care then this would have ended 3 posts ago because if you truly didn't care you wouldn't bother replying even if I reply to you.

Dear god, go outside and pet a dog or something.

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Originally Posted by Miste

idek what this is

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I used it as an example of why your "wrong until proven right" argument was flawed, it wasn't an invitation to go on another warbling tangent.

To answer the your question, I believe my own experiences and those of the people around me. In general I'm not pig-headed enough to refuse general fact and then hide behind a petty reason for it.

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It's not about being right or wrong like you keep latching onto

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Well, it is, since you seem very, very desperate to prove me wrong yet lack any evidence to do so - something you're condemning me for. See the problem?

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You keep trying to turn this around on me

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The projection is strong in this one.

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How can I force you to reply? If you don't care then this would have ended 3 posts ago because if you truly didn't care you wouldn't bother replying even if I reply to you.

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Yes, clearly, this is not a matter of pride at all. Completely objective and unemotional reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I used it as an example of why your "wrong until proven right" argument was flawed, it wasn't an invitation to go on another warbling tangent.

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You didn't read my post because this isn't what I said :)

You're still stuck on this "wrong" or "right" thing even though I've told you multiple times.

I said it is "not proven" so therefore claiming it as true is pointless since you can't prove it. It serves no purpose except to be rude to a specific region of players.

Also kind of hypocritical to claim I went on a tangent; if you recall you were the one who brought up scientific theories.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

To answer the your question, I believe my own experiences and those of the people around me. In general I'm not pig-headed enough to refuse general fact and then hide behind a petty reason for it.

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It's fine to believe it for yourself if you want, but you came in here and tried to pass your opinion off as fact when it isn't. So I asked you to prove it and you still haven't btw.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Well, it is, since you seem very, very desperate to prove me wrong yet lack any evidence to do so - something you're condemning me for. See the problem?

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You didn't read my post or didn't understand it; one or both idk :)

Still stuck on that "wrong" thing...

This is a horrible idea. Lets not get rid of one person, lets make sure no one can finish the duty.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I said it is "not proven" so therefore claiming it as true is pointless since you can't prove it. It serves no purpose except to be rude to a specific region of players.

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Apparently you have selective memory or cannot read either, as you were the one trying to claim it was a false statement. By your own argument, you cannot.

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Also kind of hypocritical to claim I went on a tangent; if you recall you were the one who brought up scientific theories.

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And yet you were the one who went on for several paragraphs about god knows what. Funny, isn't it?

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It's fine to believe it for yourself if you want, but you came in here and tried to pass your opinion off as fact when it isn't. So I asked you to prove it and you still haven't btw.

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It is, actually. You're just preferring to stick your head in the sand about it because my "evidence" doesn't meet your own criteria.

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You didn't read my post or didn't understand it; one or both idk :)

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...and do little more than conveniently side step the issue once again. Is there a point to this?

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Apparently you have selective memory or cannot read either, as you were the one trying to claim it was a false statement. By your own argument, you cannot.

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You were the one trying to claim one region is better than the other, in the first post of this string of replies, as a true statement. Which you cannot, so I told you this truth holds no water because you have no factual statistics to back it up.

You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you, but since you know you can't prove it you keep trying to use my argument against me when I wasn't the one who made the claim in the first place.

I mean it was like...

You: *makes claim*

Me: can I have proof since you are making that claim? because it seems to me no one can prove that one region is better than another, we have no factual statistical data to determine that

You: no because I have no real proof...so I'm just going to drive this in circles by telling you to prove I'm wrong instead of owning up to what I claimed in the first place

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

It is, actually. You're just preferring to stick your head in the sand about it because my "evidence" doesn't meet your own criteria.
...and do little more than conveniently side step the issue once again. Is there a point to this?

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You've been side stepping me since my first response. Have you forgotten you still haven't provided proof outside of your own and a couple of other player's experiences? If that is all you have it is only subjective and not factual proof.

Its like if me and a few friends went outside and saw a fat squirrel so we come back and say "all squirrels are fat" ....obviously that is only based off of our limited experiences and definitely not the whole picture.

So again, no region is "better" than the other unless we can prove it with real data. End.

I actually have things I need to do so this is my last reply on the matter.

Were you not around for 2.0??

Do you not remember all those dungeons/raids where someone would AFK the entire time, forcing everyone to either clear without them or leave? 99% of every "in progress" dungeon or raid was an abandoned one because of the AFKer.

Basically, you're asking to go back to 2.0 except without the in progress issue. No thanks. One big thumbs down from me.

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Originally Posted by Miste

You were the one trying to claim one region is better than the other, in the first post of this string of replies, as a true statement. Which you cannot, so I told you this truth holds no water because you have no factual statistics to back it up.

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Originally Posted by Miste

stop making subjective false claims now? :)

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Hm.

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You: *makes claim*

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You: I'm going to say you're wrong when I have no evidence that this is the case and ignore the hypocrisy of my argument.

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You've been side stepping me since my first response. Have you blah blah etc.

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There has been plenty of proof, it's no problem of mine that you're attempting to ignore it with such a tenuous argument even you can't abide by it.

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So again, no region is "better" than the other unless we can prove it with real data. End.

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You can say "end" all you like, it doesn't make you any more right. The amount of topics and posts on various player experiences and data on recent Savage clears says more than enough.

I hope you find a nice dog to pet, though.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

As long as DF is random matching, it does not need have votekick but just duty abort option, while votekick still have sense in PF, when you find out players are not what they are meant to be.

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No. If someone gets a magic DC and never comes back, i want to kick that person out of my group. If a person is flaming like the idiot that he is, i want to kick that person out of my party. Abandoning a Duty because of one single person is no option.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I think where you went wrong was not saying anything. You can't say anything that would explicitly indicate you're parsing, but simply tell the healer to help break the DPS out of Sable Orb and say the adds are dying too slow and ask the DPS to pick it up. You don't need to be rude about it, but in not saying anything, they probably just accepted what the healer said without question.

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Yeah, exactly. As I said, I was too naive, lesson learned. Better to kick the others first.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

No, there should be a way to remove problematic players without abandoning the entire instance.

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It's called Party Finder where you make your own group and then can dictate terms.