Should PLD and WAR get gap-closers at 70?

Considering they implemented the double cross-hotbar, I really think they'll give us new actions in 4.0.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Considering they implemented the double cross-hotbar, I really think they'll give us new actions in 4.0.

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That's a controller-specific thing though.
Let's first consider that every class gets 11 job skills, 5 cross-class abilities (of varying usefulness) and around 18 class abilities (of varying usefulness). I'm not even counting stuff like stat-potions, sprint, LB here.
If you use a keyboard (as a majority of players do (as far as I know)), you get 12 hotkey-slots per bar, which means getting 36 hotkey-slots through 3 bars. Which is already pretty much full considering we get around that much abilities right now. If we further consider, that the amount of hotkeys, that can be accessed fast enough to not lose DPS due to skipping GCD is limited (which it is (not considering stuff like MMO-mouses etc. here)), it becomes even worse.
We can also consider Yoshi's statement that 3.0's rotations proved to be to difficult for a majority of the player base (I'm not arguing whether this is true or not, just stating the assertion) and that the skillsystem may become more akin to 2.0 in patch 4.0. So we may probably expect new skills, but no increase (rather a decrease) in complexity.
So tl;dr: I also think we will get new actions in 4.0 (in whatever form), but proving this through a double cross-bar, that only a fraction of the player-base actually uses, isn't pretty valid imo.

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Originally Posted by Kages

That's a controller-specific thing though.

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Because you can already display 8 hotbars :p

Considering the somehow long GCD, you have enough time to click on them, while saving hotkeys for most of your oGCD skill.

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Originally Posted by Kages

If you use a keyboard (as a majority of players do (as far as I know))

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If you look at the sales, the game is pretty evenly split between PC and consoles. Since some PC players also use a gamepad, I'm not really sure it's a distinct majority. It used to be this for MMO in general but very few of them actually took the time to support controlers properly.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Because you can already access 8 hotbars with a mouse :p
Considering the somehow long GCD, you have enough time to click on them, while saving hotkeys for most of your oGCD skill.

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Yes, you can access 8 hotbars, you probably could access even more, but do you really think that playing with 8 hotbars is feasible? (I rly imagine my screen being filled with 8+ hotbars, that are actually used via hotkey... the horror,lol xD)
E.g. you already clip GCD on NIN most of the time just pressing three Mudras (some ppl with a crappy connection even clip GCD just pressing two Mudras), which is just muscle memory and way faster than clicking the mudras or pretty much every skill with your mouse.
"Somehow long GCD" is subjective aswell, as some classes have way lower GCD's (e.g. NIN/MNK), so it's unlikely for SE to screw specific classes over.
It's also not the best idea considering QoL (as said above).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If you look at the sales, the game is pretty evenly split between PC and consoles. Since some PC players also use a gamepad, I'm not really sure it's a distinct majority. It used to be this for MMO in general but very few of them actually took the time to support controlers properly.

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Even if it's 50:50 they probably won't screw any part of the population over or prefer any part of the population, as long as there are methods to provide new skills without bloating hotkeys any further.

Like I said gap closers are useful prolly only in pvp. All melee classes need to get close to do damage just as how all casters need abilities to defend themselves against melee. Like bind or knockback.

What's wrong with giving wars a gap closer that's helpful in pvp but only marginally useful in pve?

The simplest thing they can do is remove the self binding portion of Holmgang. And maybe increase the range a bit.

All tanks gave gap closers in Wow and each tank still have their own identity. I don't see why people are arguing so hard against a simple request that isn't gonna break the game in anyway?

They could just add a new pvp skill which is a gap closer for tanks to be sure to don't affect the pve style.

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

Like bind or knockback.

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Most of the current movement abilities (e.g. Plunge) don't even work while bound afaik, so it is indeed too much to ask for a gap-closer that's usable while bound.

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

What's wrong with giving wars a gap closer that's helpful in pvp but only marginally useful in pve?

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There's nothing inherently wrong with that. That's what PvP-Skills are for though. So it's really unlikely we will get skills through lvling up, which are balanced around PvP, instead of getting the regular PvP-only skills.
If they grant the other tanks gap-closers as PvP-only skills, DRK would nontheless need tweaks for PvP.

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

All tanks gave gap closers in Wow and each tank still have their own identity. I don't see why people are arguing so hard against a simple request that isn't gonna break the game in anyway?

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Most people didn't argue against gap-closers per se (me included). These skills just aren't useful in the current (PvE-) meta. Easy as that. If PvP is the only concern, then it's possible to implement PvP-only gap-closers (although the thread-topic stated getting gap-closers as the cap rises to (probably) lvl 70, so we were most likely talking about PvE here).
People would probably like new skills with unique uses instead of carbon-copies of existing skills for 4.0. That doesn't mean that copying specific concepts couldn't be a good idea aswell when there're other new concepts/mechanics building upon them.
On a further note: Developing carbon-copies of existing skills also takes away development time (although less than usual), which is also why people oppose the idea. People would like to see that the developers use their development time to create something new and not carbon-copying stuff because "WoW has it aswell".

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Originally Posted by Kages

On a further note: Developing carbon-copies of existing skills also takes away development time (although less than usual), which is also why people oppose the idea. People would like to see that the developers use their development time to create something new

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I can't agree, we need good design, not irrelevant mecanics for the sake of making new mecanics. If it's done on purpose and chosen wisely, there is nothing wrong to make a similar move (not necessary a pure copy). And above that, this gained time can be used for something else after, which is not a problem in this case (I hope they are not like "I have X time to work on that mecanic, let's copy paste that... ok done, I'll give my results at the deadline and wait"). And after all, if they don't want to add a gap-closer, we can just ask for a move increasing mobility in a general way, not necessarily a pure gap-closer as an instant dash/tp.

So first this thread was like "we like Plunge, give us Plunge" and now its like "gap closers aren't that good"...

It's called a discussion, which is a good way to make ideas progress. And every people are not the others. We arrive, read everything, and give our point of view. The fact that the 1rst ones said gap closer are great or are hardly against doesn't mean the next ones have to share their point of view, and despite of that, they are still trying to look for another way to upgrade tanks' mobility.

Is it not okay for DRK to have something that the other tanks don't, since the PLD/WAR consensus is that its a "poorly designed, clunky PLD clone with MP n stuff"?

I guess I'm just curious where this sudden interest in getting things that DRK has that the other tanks don't came from, I've frankly never seen threads like this before. People have always been like "yeah DRK has Plunge etc. but eh... PLD/WAR have (insert any of Fell Cleave/oGCD stances/Berserk/Clemency/Equilibrium/Hallowed Ground/a shield/higher dps/higher mitigation/Storm's Path/Storm's Eye here)" DRK mains have asked for things like an oGCD Grit, a slashing debuff, and maybe a slightly meatier self-heal/teensy bit more physical mitigation... can't we just have Plunge?

WAR certainly needs *nothing* to perform better than it does, and PLD, while it certainly needs fixing, its mobility is far from the issue(s).

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

But seriously, if you give PLD and WAR gap-closers, they now have 2 anti-knockbacks where DRK has 1. I think asking for a magical version of cover

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I'd probably vote for a DRK version of Anti-Magic Zone.

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or a slashing debuff/oGCD stances or some such isn't an unfair trade.

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The debuffs need to go, as I've repeatedly said in the past. OGCD stances work on WAR because of how the devs implemented Wrath/Abandon. And even then I still argue it's a broken design because switching stances is supposed to have a trade-off.

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That said, I don't want any of it. PLD and WAR have things that make them unique and valuable as does DRK, and tools that achieve the same purpose in different ways.

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Except that has nothing to do with PLD and WAR getting a gap-closer. Also, if a gap-closer is part of a job's uniqueness, there's a huge problem with the make-up of said job that should probably be looked at.

Anyway, if you want variations on gap-closers, here's two.

PLD:

35 Cover - Run to target party member, absorbing the next two attacks aimed at them. Duration: 8s. Cooldown: 90s.

WAR (technically a MRD ability):

42 Charge - Rush at target, placing you at the top of target's enmity list and delivering an attack with a potency of 50. Cooldown: 35s. Shares a cooldown with other taunt abilities.

Taken from my suggested redesign of PLD, WAR and DRK.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Also, if a gap-closer is part of a job's uniqueness, there's a huge problem with the make-up of said job that should probably be looked at.

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What? How do you figure that? It simply means it is a tool that it brings to the table that the other jobs don't. And it is a nice albeit not-necessary thing to have. All jobs have these things and they are *part* of their own unique kits that they bring to the table. I dunno where you got "huge problem" from.

Simply stating the fact that "DRK is the only tank with a gap-closer" implies that DRK is unique in that particular respect, now how you extrapolate from there to a perceived problem with the job's design escapes me.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Anyway, if you want variations on gap-closers, here's two.

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It seems like we can't agree even with ourselves in the scope of our own posts whether gap closers are valuable or not. Even in your own post you downplay a gap closer as nothing to really be proud of or tout as different/unique, and then proceed to make suggestions for the other tanks to get them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Are gap-closers some sort of inalienable tank-right?

If this is a thing we want to do, then why are we looking at the tank that has to constantly defend the value of its own abilities and not at the tank that everyone unanimously agrees has tools that every tank unequivocally wants? I'm just curious. Its pretty undeniable that people that understand the DRK job have to constantly set the record straight as far as the value and utility of their own tools, and now this thread shows up demanding the other two tank jobs be entitled to one of those tools. I just seems very very strange. Nobody ever said "Don't nerf DRK just bring the other tanks up to DRK's level" Ever. Let us keep our mobility. The other tanks have their own schticks.

I hope you realize that every subject never has been treated until the day they are. I play only WAR, and I feel often the need to get a dash when I miss a target which goes on my healer because of their regen skill for exemple, or that awful range npc that doesn't want to come to you (and no wall close to hide and force the range npc to come). I didn't even know DRK had a dash cause I play only tank and never did DRK. Of course, I always succeed to deal with because I have to, but it's not at all a gamebreaking mecanic, it's more something cool that can help in some situations (as a lot of skills). It's not like if a tank other than WAR were asking for the skill Vengeance from the WAR reducing 30% of all incoming dmg on him and adding a counter attack to each physical melee attack received which stacks with the lifesteal effects added to their other tanking mecanics. It's just a gap closer, something really cool which can be helpful and add some excitement to the job itself to do some nice tricks with other mecanics or making some actions quicker to gain time. Btw, they could be changed for them to don't be anti-knockback mecanics if it's the problem.

i don't think all tanks need a gap closer.

but i think DRK is the tank who need it the least, because it is the only tank who can attack with an ranged aoe-ability. so he doesn't need to move to the enemys fast.

All i know, is every melee has a gap closer, and tanks range for supposedly being responsible to pull mobs before anyone else, is kind of low in comparing ranged and melee with gap closers, i was glad they gave one to drk but i had said itd be nice if all them had one before drk came out, considering your best threat range ability is provoke, which really should not be used to pull at a distance, but it has the best range, comparable to casters...so...yeah. Im on both sides of the fence, but it would be nice


of all the melee jobs the only one without a pulling move also is monk, it would be cool if they got a rock throw or cesti toss too, but i digress, none of the melee DPS NEED a pulling move, but most of them got one(javelin toss, knife throw, fuma shuriken(best ranged weaponskill farthest range besides bard lb) so i dont really see a problem with the other two tanks getting a gap closer, but it would be nice if drk got a skill to prevent knockback in return, or something. Also plunge at 54? move that down to 45.

All melee gap closers have the exact same range as Lob/Hawk/Mend - 15y. So really it boils down to you getting there first and not whether you have a gap closer (Plunge's range is also 15y, as is AD. The distance at which most mobs/bosses aggro you also just happens to be a hair under 15y). Tanks have been pulling mobs without gap closers for ages and doing it just fine. Even DRK usually doesn't pull with Plunge unless he's just using it to tag a mob in between Unmends.

At this point, DRK's speed and mobility has become part of its identity. Giving it to the other tanks feels like giving DRK and WAR a shield, or giving PLD and DRK stack mechanics. And if you want DRK to share that identity it seems only fair that the other tanks share theirs... then you get homogenization, which nobody likes, myself included.

Homogenization is only necessary to the degree to which is required for all jobs of a given type to complete content. Every time a job was flat-out unable to complete content its been fixed in the next major patch, if not sooner.

There's plenty of problems with tank balance but most of them have to do with more fully realizing or fleshing out the unique strengths each tank already has, not making them all copies of eachother. And a gap closer on a tank is being woefully undersold in this thread, it is incredibly useful particularly in boss fights. The boss goes where you go so... yeah. But because of that it IS part of DRK's utility, downplayed as it may be. I wouldn't muddy that any more than I would demand a chain-stun/silence for all tanks, or a combination eye/path for all tanks.

That comes with the role though. all healers have an aoe heal, an cleanse and resurrection move, a big heal, various ways to help mitigate, regeneration, a shield ability, i mean thats why the holy trinity is kind of...yay balance. Fuma shuriken flat out out ranges anything btw, even if its a mudra skill, so youre not entirely right. lob, etc have same range as javelin, etc. So what? I agree that drk identity would be in peril but realistically feel like drk didnt really have a chance at a real identity anyway. It was made as competition to the other two established tanks, much like ast for healers, and mch for brd. So it brings one new thing that could have been given to both tanks, that doesnt necessarily mean it breaks its identity at all. If you want to get technical youre gonna be throwing dark arts at the same combo timing as a full stack stack of wrath or youre out of mp. Looks different on paper, till you realize that its pretty much the same thing, with the illusion of being different. Youre right about one thing though, tank differences and balance need to be looked at more so than they have. All the community and devs have said is "youre not a dps" and thats all weve really gotten for role defining.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

I can't agree, we need good design, not irrelevant mecanics for the sake of making new mecanics. If it's done on purpose and chosen wisely, there is nothing wrong to make a similar move (not necessary a pure copy).

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I really agree with you there. Your example would be the opposing extreme of my example.
I just like to see it this way:
If SE implement plungelike gap-closers for tanks without changing the underlying meta/mechanics there is literally zero use except DPS (if oGCD) for these gap-closers (PvE-wise, as seen with Plunges usage atm).
If SE implement plungelike gap-closers for tanks and implement mechanics using those their implementation would be justifiable.
I fully agree with you that those mechanics should not be lazyly implemented for the sake of implementing them. They just offer options for improvement (I'm not even saying these are the only portions of the game where improvements could be made).
I'm just really against the idea of "I want a skill y, that's like skill x of class z, because class z has it aswell", as this kind of argumentation is often flawed (imho). People often want a skill without actually giving objective reason as to why they think they need it (not talking about the person cited here, just in general).

It's DRK's entire identity is hinged on his gap closer then he has way bigger problems.

Personal opinion: Gap closer is kind of fun but not ultimately game changing so why not?

I'd like to have a class that can ride around on a bike.

Cyclemancer

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

That comes with the role though. all healers have an aoe heal, an cleanse and resurrection move, a big heal, various ways to help mitigate, regeneration, a shield ability, i mean thats why the holy trinity is kind of...yay balance.

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Yeah, and all tanks have tank stance, enmity combo, mitigation cooldown, a parry/block buff...so ?

Plunge is as much tied to the tank role than Fluid Aura is to the healer role...i.e not at all.

A gap closer, as I said, is a good way to reach a target which is far from you for whatever reason in the middle of a fight to get aggro on it quickly after you took the other npcs. And then you can directly keep generating aggro on it with your aggro combos instead of just Provoke and run to that one and lose it directly again. It's not about dps, nor healing, nor "quick-style" but about aggro management.

We could have for the WAR a move like "Sprint speed for 5 sec, and your next GCD has no TP cost. CD : 120 sec. The cooldown is reduced by 10 sec per monster killed around you in the 15 yards. (PvP : -20sec per ennemy killed around)". Which could be a cool move to engage between two fights, and also gain some time thanks to the sprint speed to have time to get more aggro before the others can hit and generate aggro, and the sprint bonus gives no dps bonus at all this way. This will also fit the WAR style of rage system per monster killed to feel like excited and ready for another fight (which is also helped by the no cost with the next GCD). On top of that, you can also just keep it for a fight for when you will see a monster which escape your aggro management system.

The Paladin could have a "Sprint speed for 5sec which stuns with his shield, and which stuns a longer duration based on the traveled distance. Minimum Stun duration : 1sec, max 5sec. Act like the starter "Fast Blade" for aggro combos, so you can directly just "Savage Blade" + "Rage of Halone". CD : 90s." This would make a great starting combo, and the 5sec stun duration would be perfect to just do the full aggro combo (or even the dps one giving mana) and just stun once again a monster which usually open with a charging move like the AoE terror effect from Succubus and interrupt it with your GCD stun. With a "Target 1" maccro, it would be perfect to be sure people focus the same stuned character while you are sure to be able to generate aggro on it without problem.

The CDs here are a lot longer than Plunge because it would be great to really see them as tools used when needed. Those are just ideas, I'm not saying they would be the best options.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

A gap closer, as I said, is a good way to reach a target which is far from you for whatever reason in the middle of a fight to get aggro on it quickly after you took the other npcs. And then you can directly keep generating aggro on it with your aggro combos instead of just Provoke and run to that one and lose it directly again. It's not about dps, nor healing, nor I'm so quick but about aggro management.

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Plunge range : 15 yalms
Unmend range : 15 yalms
Shield Lob range : 15 yalms
Tomahaw range : 15 yalms

So, if you can "plunge" to your target, you can also use your ranged enmity move, with the benefit of not screwing any positionnals against mobs that are already around you.

Plunge means you can chain directly with something else because you're at melee, unlike our Tomahawk/Shield generating as much aggro as a 390potency move (130x3) for 120 TP while it's free for DRK, and spamming such a move is not worth (but 390 of a weak class (tanks) because we are made weaker on purpose) and aggro is directly linked to the dmg system because it's just a multiplication of the damage dealt to the target. And the range attacks of tanks have no existing combo (maybe it would be time to get those abilities acting like a combo starter, and that would be also a solution).

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Originally Posted by Warkupo

It's DRK's entire identity is hinged on his gap closer....

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Nobody said that.

Anything a job can do that other jobs of its type can't contributes to its identity and flavor. Its *entire* identity is based on quite a lot of things

The fact that it isn't game changing is reason for DRK to keep it, not reason to fork it over to the other tanks.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

Plunge means you can chain directly with something else because you're at melee

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Actually, the animation lock prevents you from chaining a GCD right after Plunge. That's why you use Unmend before Plunge when pulling. So, even DRK can not generate strong ranged enmity "for free".

Yes enmity is linked to damage but a 100 potency move with a x3 multiplier will generate more enmity than a 250 potency move, so potency is not everything.

Unmend/Tomahawk/Shield Lob are GCD, the latter two are expensive TP-wise also.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes enmity is linked to damage but a 100 potency move with a x3 multiplier will generate more enmity than a 250 potency move, so potency is not everything.

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Don't make me say what I didn't say xD
Tomahawk is like a 390 potency (130 x 3 as I said) it's a multiplication between the potency and the enmity bonus of the move itself, so of course I know both are important x) I didn't expect I had to be even more accurate to describe the whole mecanic to be sure you know I know.
For exemple, Butcher's Block is a 280 potency with a 5.5 multiplicator, so the hit itself (in the combo) generates as many potency as if you made a 280*5.5= 1540 potency hit without any stance. I'm sure you know that also, but yea, no need to go into that much details to be understood here, isn't it? x)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's why you use Unmend before Plunge when pulling.

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You don't Plunge on pull.

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Originally Posted by Fannah

Enmity calculation

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It's just that, without any enmity multiplier, it's easy to lose aggro with Plunge alone. So, if you want to take a stray mob, you'd still want to use Unmend, and thus, not really needing to move towards it.
Especially since you're probably fighting something already, and your party members will thank you for not moving the current target.

That's why I think that a gap closer is not that important when it comes to tanking. As a DRK, the reason I use Plunge (Apart from increasing DPS) is indeed to counter knockback mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

You don't Plunge on pull.

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Delivers a jumping attack with a potency of 200.

gotta admit the flavor text is pretty vague on its use besides damage.

but anyone who have used it, knows it literally acts like shoulder tackle(without the stun), placing you instantly in front of the enemy targetted, even if you dont use it in a pull doesnt mean it cant be used in a pull, and it can and be quite effective as well. thing about most dungeon layouts, sure are a whole lot of 3 mob triangles with one being closer whilst the other two are further back and to the sides, i find it pretty easy to pick those guys up with unleash as soon as i startle them by hitting the one in the front, then you just step forward once and turn and theyre all in a tight line facing you with their back turned to the party...
I mean its whatever, i dont really see it killing drk if they do or not give a version to pld, war, personally id rather them get even more themed skills, rather than a gap closer. I mean a "jump attack".

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

You don't Plunge on pull.

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Actually, you do.
You put Salted Earth then Unmend + Plunge. By the time you're out of the animation lock you can use another GCD.

Gap closers' animation locks don't start when you reach your target, they start when you hit the button. This is an incredibly pervasive misconception- that when you use a gap closer in any context you are subject to the complete and full animation lock regardless, when this is only true when you are in melee range.

When you use a gap closer from its maximum range, the animation is 90% over once you reach the target, rendering it almost unnoticeable.

Since its very easy for your entire group to stand at the 15y mark and start dpsing as soon as they see your Unmend animation, the only person you're really hurting by using plunge after the first gcd or two is yourself, since it won't get the slash-down.

I prefer to put Passenger after Mend, since it still has some range to it.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

When you use a gap closer from its maximum range, the animation is 90% over once you reach the target, rendering it almost unnoticeable.

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The full animation for Plunge is still as long as a GCD.
So, by using Unmend and Plunge after Salted Earth, you ensure that your DoT start the earliest, that the mob will stay into the AoE and still gain enough aggro to put scourge before your Power Slash combo.

You're missing a tick on Salt doing that. You can also start with Scourge no matter what your opener is and not lose hate.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

You're missing a tick on Salt doing that.

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What ? That makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

What ? That makes no sense.

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What part don't you understand? If you use Salted Earth before you Unmend you're losing that first tick. Unless you're literally pulling with it in which case thats another issue entirely.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

What part don't you understand? If you use Salted Earth before you Unmend you're losing that first tick. Unless you're literally pulling with it in which case thats another issue entirely.

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The part where you don't lose the first tick, since, by the time Salted Earth actually starts, you've already engaged the target.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Actually, you do.
You put Salted Earth then Unmend + Plunge. By the time you're out of the animation lock you can use another GCD.

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That's not the point. Why would you use Plunge so early in the opener when you could land it later with Slashing debuff and possible TA? I'd open with Potion, Salt and DP first, then when slashing/TA is up go into physical CDs like C&S and Plunge.

If you're tanking then there's also the cancer about making melees burn their gap closers to chase after you, or lose dps. In which case you most likely should save your oGCDs for when you drop Grit anyway, and if not dropping Grit, just do the same as above.