Your argument is anything but clear. You are using a warped sense of morality to paint these classes into neat little black and white packages. Your inferences are completely false and invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
Why CNJ > WHM & THM > BLM does make sense: A canoical study.
Printable View
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11-10-2011, 11:20 PMWynn
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11-10-2011, 11:21 PMTonkrayes and does that skill goes along with pain of its caster? no it doesnt.. because its a real white mage skill.. white mage skills (except banish) isnt about hurting... or converting lifepoints into somethingQuote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
THM Regen: small heal amount + LP sacrifice of the caster
WHM Regen: just about Heal effect + reggen
sacrifice in sense of "sacrificing someones live" to receive an effekt.. doesnt sound very "holy" to me.. as i said.. its about sacrificing... life drain, mp drain (from a corpse)... the only thing is missing for the thaumaturg right now is that he can summon little minions up out of a corpse.Quote:
The word is sacrifice, as in I am making a sacrifice of my life to heal yours. Sounds kind of martyr like, no?
and thats the intention which i mostly got when i followed the main storyline and looked deeply into his skills.. it was more about weakening, poisoning enemys, draining their health etc... while as the conjurer (druid) was about nature, curing someones wounds etc.
unfortunatley.. i cant find that mission step on youtube, that i can show it to you what i mean.
ah ok now thats logic. shadow spells, calling the darkness belongs to a holy white mage ;DQuote:
Shadow is just the inverse of light. A duality if you will. Kind of like The Thal to it's Nald, if you get my meaning.
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11-10-2011, 11:23 PMWynnYou people are completely hopeless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
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11-10-2011, 11:26 PMTonkrawell or you... you think SE does know more less about their classes than you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
interesting... so i see... life leeches... mp leeches from corpses do belong to a holy white mage caster role! respect (it reminds me more of necromancer classes) -
11-10-2011, 11:26 PMBetelgeuzahStill not understanding, I see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
The forces of nature are not evil, nor good. Someone with evil intentions (in fantasy) can use them to perform evil deeds, but the nature itself has no allegiance. Thus CNJ is neither good nor evil, it is completely neutral. You simply use the nature the way you want to. You even admitted this by saying that BLM is not evil. Nature-based offensive spells do not make it evil.
On the other hand, spells like Contagion, Blood Rite, Dark Seal- anything considered "Dark" is considered "evil" or "bad". I didn't make it this way, but that's how they are conceived. Dark is "evil", Light is "good". While the nature is neutral. There is nothing "warped" in these preconceptions. If you felt the opposite then that would be warped indeed.
You can insist that nature is considered evil in some weird fantasy world in your mind, but that is not how it is generally conceived. And that said WHM is less fitting for the evil role than BLM is. Case closed. -
11-10-2011, 11:30 PMWynnI'm not insisting nature is evil. I'm insisting your attempt to make one evil over the other is false. Just as nature is not evil, neither is death inherently evil. It is part of nature, after all. But that's irrelevent anyway because THMs don't revere death. They revere Nald'thal, who is the keeper of the afterlife, like Osiris or any other number of ancient gods who were not considered evil and were worshiped in the hopes of making a comfortable stay in heaven (or insert name for afterlife here).Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
You're the one who doesn't understand. -
11-10-2011, 11:33 PMEndemerrin
Honestly, I really fail to see why some people are getting into a fuss over things. We have zero information on the class changes coming in 1.20, outside of the knowledge that they will be very significant. Yoshi-P has said in recent days that we will be getting information on the class changes very seen (over the weekend, supposedly) - so people need to just be patient.
While I personally am skeptical on how they will pull things off, hopefully they'll just be shifting all the elemental spells to Thaumaturge, and giving Conjurer Dia/Diaga + Banish/Banishga + etc. I mean, we all know we can't exactly have a black mage without black magic. In previous installments, black magic is elemental magic. It'd be pretty brazen of them to claim to want to bring back "original roles" and go a completely different route with black mage by giving them solely dark magic. -
11-10-2011, 11:34 PMBetelgeuzahYet that's how humans conceive death, and not nature.Quote:
Just as nature is not evil, neither is death inherently evil.
=DeathQuote:
Scourge
Blood Rite
Dark Seal
Shadowfall
Shadowsear
Contagion
=Evil
=Black Mage and not White Mage
It's funny that now you have to resort to lore, but the facts are in your face. Those spells belong to BLM, not WHM. Whatever Op'rah THM's revere doesn't matter when they have abilities and spells that can be directly linked to death, and thus evil as people tend to do. Same goes for "Black". -
11-10-2011, 11:44 PMWynnYou're right, about almost everything. Except that we just got a quote that said they are not changing the fundamentals, which could mean they aren't shifting any of the spells. If they do, great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endemerrin
/sighQuote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
Shadow is not directly linked to death. Blood is not directly linked to death. In fact, one could argue blood is life. Contagion is disease, a virus, also life. These are just inversions, the yin to the yang. Which IS what THM is actually about. Duality.
BLM has never ever been evil. In fact, the very first BLM was a warrior of light.
Your morality has no basis here. And the god THMs revere is completely relevant. It is the crux of everything.
Killing something with disease is no more evil than killing something by drowning them. -
11-11-2011, 12:08 AMTonkra
----edit----
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11-11-2011, 12:17 AMWynnQuote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
Actually...Ul'dah is my starting city. Which is why I know so much about THMs.
Resurrection is also not evil. Christ is believed to have been resurrected and he is the holy figure of millions. Not to mention, CNJs are raising and rebirthing people left and right so umm...yeah. -
11-11-2011, 12:40 AMBetelgeuzahYes it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
Yes it is.Quote:
Blood is not directly linked to death.
Linked to death as well.Quote:
Contagion is disease, a virus, also life.
Still doesn't matter.Quote:
BLM has never ever been evil.
You keep denying basic human conceptions of Death and Evil. Only because you want to be right.Quote:
Your morality has no basis here.
When people see these THM abilities, they know the class is darker than CNJ. Because they have preconceptions of what elements are linked to evil and dark. It's not water, it's not earth, it's not wind, it's not lightning. Blood, darkness, shadows, words like contagion. To deny that these terms aren't inherently more evil than water, wind, earth is denying common human morality.
There is nothing more relevant to say. You deny everything that is linked with evil and death, and try to shoehorn terms that aren't linked to it to prove a point. Basic elements of nature are neutral. -
11-11-2011, 12:47 AMWynnBetelgeuzah: It is evil cause I say it is!Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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11-11-2011, 12:51 AMBetelgeuzah
It is because everyone that isn't in denial about BLM being a fitting Job for THM thinks so.
Go ask any person on the street. "Would you link blood with death or evil?" "How about shadow? Darkness? Contagion? Black Magic?"
"Oh dear mister, I only link evil with water and wind personally". -
11-11-2011, 12:54 AMWynnYou're intentionally twisting what I'm saying in order to argue your flawed morality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
It is a good thing that men of science and reason do not have the same mind set. We might still be stuck in the middle ages. -
11-11-2011, 12:58 AMTonkra
Well but do you think F'Lhamin is happy about the creepy practices from the thm order? The thaumaturge wants to manipulate the mind of that little girl with the dark skills of thaumaturgery.
although they can be very unsafe for that little girl. he doesnt care at all.
oh damn i need to repost, because i deleted my last one ;XD lol
Ul'dah storyline.. the sitaution: The father of Ascillia died and now they want to talk the widely discussed order of Nald'Thal. to get him back into the world of the living.
L'hamin:"Have you heard of the order of Nal'thal? Their kind have practiced a dark sorcery since ancient times[..]
Intro (you can only see the text in the chatwindow, because the user hasn't recorded that)
Fyrillsunn: "Arrazaneth ossuary is the temple of that his aspect is that of death and darkness"
Mumuepo: "The man's soul belongs to Thal now, but his remains belong to the ossuary. I will...examine them further"
L'hamin: "The order bought the corpse?! to what end?!"
Mumuepo: "You neednt lose your composure.And it do you no good to speak of this to the syndicate.[...]
There is much my arts could coax from her memory. things of which she is even unaware. Should you ever wish to discover more i would be gladly"
L'hamin: "Ascillia wont be touched! The dark arts are not save when used on the young. even those outside of the order know this. i will not allow it!"
So with that in mind.. and the creepy atmosphere in the cutscenes.. the thaumaturges and the order seem more dark and creepy than before.
And you cant tell that THEIR practices to revive someone (they havent been successfull yet) is comparable with the rising of someone we know from the bible (god desided to send him back and not a dark mage) ;D (although im not religious at all and believe in that kind of stuff)
but if you want to argument with that... people should not interfere into the Death otherwise it would be called "heretic" in the mid age
their practices are DARK AND CREEPY.. or shall i underline for you the word dark in the dialogue? well i just did :D
SE KNOWS what they have downwritten within the story and lore!:
[SIZE="6"]Quotes[/SIZE] (for manifesting the role and lore of the THM) how the practic of thaumaturgery and the order is described (just from 3 of those cutscenes):
"a dark sorcery since ancient times"
"Arrazaneth ossuary is the temple of that his aspect is that of death and darkness
"The dark arts are not save when used on the young"
thaumaturgery is about mind manipulation, weakening enemys, draining energy out of corpses, poisoning targets, darkness spells like scourge.. that what thaumaturgery is about!! they are not caring about curing wounds in primary! like nature living conjurers (druids) do.
the backgrounds of thm's are heretical and dark. thats what the population (e.g. L'hamin) is thinking! its not that they are all in all evil! BUT their practices are debatable and DARK
and you can see in his abillities as well. regen is not just "regen" (like the whm regen we know from the series). for casting it he needs to sacrifice its own health.why do you think they did it? i can see parallels to other classes in other games like necro or something like it. Life is a kind of ressource to make it possible for him to cast that spell.
whm never need to sacrifice, because a whitemage's magic is just pure and holy.
for now.. i think everybody who wants to play a real dark blackmage they can live it up with the thaumaturge class after patch 1.20. -
11-11-2011, 12:59 AMBetelgeuzahThis is entirely cultural. It has nothing to do with science. Why should it? It's about morality, not natural science.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
What am I twisting? Go and do it. Tell us your findings. This is about people's preconceptions after all, not some scientific definition of blood's purpose. -
11-11-2011, 01:34 AMHartigan_RedsailBecause that is not where THM hang out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowen
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11-11-2011, 01:39 AMTonkrayou say so? the guild of each class is the mirror of what the class is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartigan_Redsail
regarding lore and story. Thaumaturgery is often mentioned in the same sentence with "dark sorcery" "unsave" "death" for several times. (that i've posted above) all other stuff is just your own interpretation you would like it to have.
i mean what part of "sorcery" "dark" "death" "mind manipulating" the people dont get, eh?
i wouldnt say its about their personalitys itself (like the blackmage isnt evil) but they use and draw benefit from dark (black) magic. while the conjurer is taking his benefit from nature.
And if that would be false why do you think SE picked the thm to be blm? how come? its in the story, its in the lore, its in his playstyle and in his abillities. (not for 100% but thats why they want to switch some skills over to thm and backward to con) and so everyone gets his stereotype class back we had in all FF's before ;)
end of discussion -
11-11-2011, 01:39 AMWynnYes, they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartigan_Redsail
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11-11-2011, 02:53 AMWynn
Lines from "Law and the Order" Level 36 THM quest:
Overweening Thaumaturge: "You know nothing of thaumaturgy. Wealth, sin, virtue--the pillars of the Order. These are naught but mere words to your feeble mind!
I'llofii: "You presume much for a novice. I pity you your ignorance. It is you who does not understand. We bear sin that we might recognize the seeds of evil harbored within us all. And with that knowing, we might then come to know ourselves. That we are who we are both because of them and despite them. You have committed the most unthinkable of acts. And you have stained your blood black in the doing. Such blood has no place in our Order. "
Video of the quest here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJhsotGGaII -
11-11-2011, 03:09 AMDuuude007Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartigan_Redsail
I think you are confusing two completely different places in Ul'dah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
Millvaneth Sacrarium worships the aspect of Nald, aka LIFE
Presently no guild resides in the temple of Nald
Arrzaneth Ossuary worships the aspect of Thal, aka DEATH
Presently the Thaumaturge guild resides in the temple of Thal -
11-11-2011, 03:47 AMWynnNO!Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
The temples are dedicated to the two aspects but they are the same Order. The Order of Nald'thal. They are ALL Thaumaturges. -
11-11-2011, 04:13 AMDuuude007Then explain why this NPC says this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
Tutubuki: "If you would walk these halls, you must know of Nald'thal, the two aspects. It is Nald who rules over this world of the living, and Thal who keeps the realm of the dead... All which lives must die, and to cross over one must be devout of mind─a true follower of Thal."
and this:
Fyrilsunn: "Arrzaneth Ossuary is the temple of Thal... His aspect is that of death and darkness, that which we shall all come to know in time. Many of the poor and destitute worship here. For it is they who seek a better place in death than they knew in life."
The other temple is without guild... -
11-11-2011, 04:18 AMGriss
If you must use Good and Evil as descriptive terms. Ideologically thm is neither, it walks the fuzzy grey line.
true. but its not exactly filled marauders and conjurers now is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
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11-11-2011, 04:21 AMDuuude007
Good and evil are in the eye of the beholder. How often have you seen apart from TV or movies, has someone arrested said:
Im sure that some of the darkest people we can think of in history thought of themselves as virtuous.Quote:
You have thwarted my evil plans!
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11-11-2011, 04:40 AMWynnYour own quote specifically states Nald'thal and how the duality is present....Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
The Ossuary IS the temple dedicated to Thal. The Sacrarium is the temple dedicated to the aspect of Nald. It is the same order in both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASwy5...eature=related
5:02 Read what Momodi says.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkIyC2TphmA
0:08 Read what Yayako says.
I'm done arguing with people that have zero clue what they are talking about. Oh Internetz.... -
11-11-2011, 04:48 AMLerris
The #1 reason this took people by surprise:
In EVERY Final Fantasy to date, Black Mage, where identified as such, has been a specialist in elemental nukes.
Which means, there is only one candidate class for BLM. Conjurer. It'll be interesting to see how this is resolved. -
11-11-2011, 05:10 AMRemVye
You guys... all I can say is
John 3:16 read that
Pope II 4:19 read that
Jwalking across the street 5:95
Heath Cliff episode 4 watch it
TMNT final chapter
Ludacris volume III listen to that
That explains everything -
11-11-2011, 05:18 AMPhysicthe elemental nukes were just a means to an ends the overall defining feature isQuote:
Originally Posted by Lerris
the real focus is destruction, now usually they use elemental magic to do this, so one could if one wanted to call them an elementalist, but that was not the overall feature of the class. I think thm was always planned to be the more destructive class. they even said so in the website description.Quote:
The Black Mage is the offensive magic caster of the Light Warriors. While the Black Mage has weak combat skills and the lowest HP out of any character class, he is capable of inflicting negative status effects and causing great damage to the enemy with his Black Magic. They have the appeareance of a human dressed in a blue cloak, with only eyes glowing in the dark of his face.
but really they wanted to split the elementalist from the blm, and make more rounded out mages, but the darkness stays with the thms, the conjurers are really something a bit different, elementalists first and foremost.
So really thm is the most blm class, but con is not that whm like, it would be closer to an elementalist, but they altered this when they gave them more white magic and made them better at healing. Anyhow point is a blm doesnt need elemental spells, in fact its strongest spells are usually non elemental, gravija, meteor, ultima, scourge. anyhow whm is a specialty of conjurer now, focusing on the healing aspects, but thms job only has 1 healing spell in its whole list, and 1 buff, the buff is basically an absorb spell, and the healing spells requires hp loss. In order to focus on the healing/buffing aspect of its job, thaum would need a lot more healing/buffing abilities. -
11-11-2011, 05:38 AMCoglin
WAIT...HOLD ON...STOP THE PRESSES.
I see the issues here.................... Wynn didn't get the memo that
BLM is gonna be THM and WHM is gonna be CON. Because there is 5 pages of him trying convince us CON are WHMs.
Appearently he believes with 8 pages of his pointless argueing that the rules will change, we will all see the error of our ways, and the des will change our minds.
Get over it......It is what it is.......CON is WHM....Deal with it. -
11-11-2011, 05:49 AMRemVyeinb4Quote:
Originally Posted by Coglin
"troll" -wynn -
11-11-2011, 05:59 AMDuuude007And at 5:07 he again shows that the Sacrarium is very exclusive and shows no mention of containing THM, the Ossuary does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
Its like The Army and the Navy of the US military. Both are military, but they are very, very different, with separate headquarters, generals, etc etc.
Back to the original point:
THM representatives reside in the Ossuary, which literally means crypt. They carve weapons from the bones of the dead, and their only TP moves are umbral based. Character creation says that they perform acts of destruction.
In direct Contrast, CNJ representatives reside in the Fane, which literally means church. They wield living weapons of wood, and their only TP moves are astral based. Character creation says that they perform acts of creation. -
11-11-2011, 06:04 AMRemVyeNO......Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
Up is down and black is white!
For the 12th? time presenting these facts, do you think they will get the clue? doubtful.. -
11-11-2011, 06:07 AMDuuude007They have thick skulls?Quote:
Originally Posted by RemVye
Well.. I have a chisel.
Given enough time... I'll make a dent. :)
Methinks I have enough gameplay experience to have a general understanding of FFXIV... lol. -
11-11-2011, 06:07 AMNeptune
Wow OP, that is the worst written post I have ever seen on these boards. To everyone that gave him a thumbs up, I am going to show you why you shouldn't accept what he has written.
The evidence you have provided only supports that Conjurers have lore, and Thaumaturges have lore. But Conjurers have Umbral magic and Thaumaturges have Astral magic, unlike your post describes. And Astral does not equal Divine, does it?
"Normal Attack: CNJ = Spirit vs. THM = Phantom
TP Attack: CNJ = Astral vs. THM = Umbral"
You're making it sound like Thaumaturges use only Umbral magic, which isn't the case is it? Thaumaturges use Astral Magic as well. In fact, Conjurers use Umbral magic. 3 of the 6 spells they have are Umbral. And White/Black mages have no relation to the words spirit and phantom.
You are just trying to pull a fast one because the average person doesn't understand how Black Mage and White Mages relate to your quotations, which, if it's unclear to anyone, is none whatsoever.
If you want to see real information on Black Mages, visit:
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Black_magic
and for White Mages:
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/White_magic
Dude007, I ask you to admit that you have posted misleading information in your OP and correct it accordingly. -
11-11-2011, 06:11 AMRemVyeI guess you're not including your own...Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune
<insert sob story> -
11-11-2011, 06:12 AMNeptuneIn my opinion that was very well written. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by RemVye
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11-11-2011, 06:15 AMRemVyeWell I think the OP is well written...Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune
It's straight facts, not sure how it's misleading.
The main point being:
Death associates with Evil associates with Dark associates with THM
Life associates with Good associates with White (purity / light) associates with CON...
What's to be confused about... at this point I'm convinced you're all trolling -
11-11-2011, 06:18 AMDuuude007Neptune, I ask you to admit that you have not read (or fully understood) the entire original post, which details that the only TP moves each has show the umbral and astral contrast, which is entirely true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune
And I did not say that spirit and phantom are direct representatives of White and black, however the references do historically have a lighter and darker connotation, respectively. SE has provided backgrounds to both jobs based on the quotes, the official site, and even character creation, which are distinct and leave few shades of gray.
Fun Fact: in FFXIII, the battle paradigm "Thaumaturge" is represented by a party of 3 comprised of 2 Ravagers (Nukers) and 1 Medic (Healer). Not very dissimilar from the current THM of FFXIV. Elements of hybridism, while to date (to my knowledge) the only class anyone has used to successfully solo Dodore, Buffalo or Goblin NM's.