Cleric stance needs change just for melding sake as healer

I know I'm late to the party, but comparing healer accuracy to tank accuracy is a little.... off.

Since a tanks main function is to keep a mob on him/her they have to be able to connect with the mob. If a healer misses DPS drops, if a WAR misses butcher's block on an opener then it's going to be dark days for someone.

Why not remove all accuracy on all items..... And force dps and tanks to use there materia slots for accuracy instead.. But nah people will flame if this happened because they will have to socket there precious slots with accuracy

Healers is the only job role that cannot get accuracy on gear..... Dps get it easy through gear.... And tanks get it free with tank stance..... So tbh those who against it cleric stance having accuracy needs to face facts

Healers will heal first and DPS is the last priority.... If there is high damage going on healers will not be able to dish out any dps what so ever

So those melds... We stack accuracy....but the fight is heavy on healing... So healers have wasted all there melds on accuracy just to be none effective on a fight which require a lot more healing...thus making our choice in melds useless.....i for one do not want to keep changing melds base around a boss fight...

All fights in this game have moments where a healer can add a bit of damage to the boss but for a few seconds, but u change to cleric stance and use Stone III and due to being unlucky for that 15-20secs u miss all of them... So u burned MP just to miss due to nothing else to do because no one is in danger

So then SE decides to make a super healing intense fight in future... But both the Healers stacked accuracy which loses all its benefit because both healers are fulk time healing... Which then forces both healers to remeld there entire gear just for 1 boss fight

At this rate healers be the only job that will require to change melds base on fights... Accuracy due to not much healing required so we use GCD to dps.... Then crit/det/Spd for healing intense fights due to heavy damage... Which screams design flaw with melding for healers

Im pretty sure healers will hate to do this in near future >.> which i can totally foresee happening

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

Why not remove all accuracy on all items..... ..

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Because unlike a healer, tanks and DPS have to land hits on the boss in order to perform their main task. Until this gets changed around so that suddenly in order to heal at all, healers need to land hits on the enemies, there's no reason to change cleric stance, because healer DPS is a bonus, not a requirement.

Cannot edit due to being on tablet....

Tbh just remake surecast to give accuracy it lasts 10 seconds anyway and it rarely used at all for most casters/healers

Surecast
30 sec recast
Last 10 seconds
Cannot be interupted whist casting
All attacks will land on the target whist active

This be awsome it gives us accuracy and got a cooldown

And before people complain.... Bard/mech/smn/blm got hawks eye so remaking surecast u can remove hawks eye from Blm and smn and allow them to use surecast instead

It just makes sense

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Because unlike a healer, tanks and DPS have to land hits on the boss in order to perform their main task. Until this gets changed around so that suddenly in order to heal at all, healers need to land hits on the enemies, there's no reason to change cleric stance, because healer DPS is a bonus, not a requirement.

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If we go by this logic OT only need to provoke and land a combo to turn into the main tank....so technically OT can just AFK the fight if he/she wanted too and just tank swap when needed.... But nope he can dps all his heart content...

Its the same logic for healers.. Once everyone is healthy and there is no danger we want to dps too... But the damn community is against it because we are healers and not allowed... But the same rule applies to OT... Hes not main tanking so why should he be able to switch to dps mode... When all he needs is provoke/combo to turn into main tank

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

Cannot edit due to being on tablet....

Tbh just remake surecast to give accuracy it lasts 10 seconds anyway and it rarely used at all for most casters/healers

Surecast
30 sec recast
Last 10 seconds
Cannot be interupted whist casting
All attacks will land on the target whist active

This be awsome it gives us accuracy and got a cooldown

And before people complain.... Bard/mech/smn/blm got hawks eye so remaking surecast u can remove hawks eye from Blm and smn and allow them to use surecast instead

It just makes sense

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....you're absolutely terribly mistaken if you think MCH cross class Hawkeye for 100% hit rate. Also, SMN and BLM don't cross class Hawkeye because they'd rather guarantee their damage with 100% hit rate and not rely on a buff to "help them hit".

Your suggestion for Surecast to give 100% hit rate based on the logic that Hawkeye has the same benefit is incredibly faulty.

That or I'm not understanding what you're saying at all.

I'll just requote this from earlier:

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Originally Posted by Irving

You are not a DPS and thus you do not need accuracy to perform your basic role.
You as a player took the optional route to go further, thus requiring you to meld outside of your jobs premier stats.

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Does it suck healer's have a crappy hit rate right now? Yes, it does. But we can fix that, if we choose to go that route for our melds. I see nothing wrong with S-E giving us healers the choice of picking how we want to play.

And if S-E decides to implement a fight so healing intensive that we can't turn on Cleric Stance, that means S-E will basically be giving us 4-6 minute fights to make sure healer's just don't lose all their MP and wipe the raid. Given their desire to make exceptionally long fights, I doubt that's going to happen any time soon.

How many times... Have u attempted bosses and only need a 1-2% to kill it.... Well guess what that 1-2% would of been a kill if cleric stance had accuracy on it ... But due to how healers work now all those misses and wasting MP trying to help... Just to wipe a 1-2%...there been times where iv been alive with OT with 2% left and me switching to dps just to miss ALOT ... Which then enrage kill us.....

Everyone have been through this at some point or requite everyone to burn boss before it enrage this includes healers too... But as healer its miss miss miss hit miss hit hit miss....like cmon

In this forum i want everyone to do sephirot ex as a healer... And go dps mode on colors with buffs on, as SCH/AST we lucky dots always hits... But as whm damn i feel sorry for u...

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

....you're absolutely terribly mistaken if you think MCH cross class Hawkeye for 100% hit rate. Also, SMN and BLM don't cross class Hawkeye because they'd rather guarantee their damage with 100% hit rate and not rely on a buff to "help them hit"..

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Re read what i put... I did not say BLM and SMN takes it for cross skill.. I said they just have it

Also yes... Healers have a choice between either being supportive with dps/healing or being pure healer

So what about tanks? Or dps? Or off tanks? Where are there choices for playstyle these dont require accuracy since tanks got it as a buff and dps get it on gear already!

Yet healers are penalise to meld either accuracy..... Or crit/det/spd

Tbh remove accuracy on Off Tanks and force them to stack accuracy since dps is not there main role...but players wont allow this

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

Tbh remove accuracy on Off Tanks and force them to stack accuracy since dps is not there main role...but players wont allow this

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Tanks can choose to use just enough accuracy to meet the flank accuracy requirement unless there are tank soak mechanics, since the accuracy buff of tank stance should be more than enough to make up for the deficit. Doing this is suboptimal, as it prevents DPS stance main tanking, but it's there. DPS have always used just enough accuracy to meet caps as well.

Tbh... I have no idea why players are against this idea at all.. It be an improvement towards healer and make them more efficent.. Its not even overpowered as HEALING is our primary role like tanks jobs is to TANK

For off healers and off tanks they both filling the role as extra dps to help the raid out then switching between HEALING and TANK when required to do said mechanic

But for now i will disregard all people who is against the idea.. Untill they can come up with atless 10 reasons why it should not be allowed and why it be a bad idea to allow healers to be able to have full accuracy on cleric stance, when everythink points to improve healers effectiveness in raids/experts etc

Until then i see this as a brillient change towards healers

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

Re read what i put... I did not say BLM and SMN takes it for cross skill.. I said they just have it

Also yes... Healers have a choice between either being supportive with dps/healing or being pure healer

So what about tanks? Or dps? Or off tanks? Where are there choices for playstyle these dont require accuracy since tanks got it as a buff and dps get it on gear already!

Yet healers are penalise to meld either accuracy..... Or crit/det/spd

Tbh remove accuracy on Off Tanks and force them to stack accuracy since dps is not there main role...but players wont allow this

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They get their choice by either picking SkS / DET / Crit / random other stats. Likewise, Healer's get to chose Accuracy / SpS / Det / Crit / Piety / VIT (if HP required).

You seem to think that healer's ABSOLUTELY MUST DPS when they don't. Yes, the hit rate is frustrating and possibly rage inducing, but it's not like healer's don't have the means to fix this if they choose to do so. Healer's are not being FORCED to choose Accuracy, but it is correct to say that melding accuracy is highly recommended.

1%-2% wipes are frustrating, but I'm not going to blame that on healer DPS and their misses. Sure if you're down to the OT and a healer trying to beat enrage and you don't due to healer misses, it's frustrating. But at the same time I have to question why 6/8 people on your team are dead by that point. DPS derp? Tank derp? Heal derp? While the accuracy can secure a victory in that respect I'd rather have the entire group learn together so they can hit that point as a group together and beat that enrage together, and not blame it on healer DPS for a wipe if that occurs.

Now if you had a full group that wiped on enrage at that point, then you have to start wondering where people can improve. And not just for healers. This is for the entire raid. Healer DPS is just a small factor to the optimizations a group can get.

Three more things:

http://i.imgur.com/c299sR4.png

Tell me, where does it say tanks get 100% hit rate in their tank stances? Also note that these accuracy bonuses do not apply when tanks are in their DPS stances and thus they still require Accuracy to hit their targets.

Let me reiterate this for you since you've failed to comprehend what other posters have said in this matter.

TANKS DO NOT GET 100% HIT RATE FOR FREE

They require accuracy as much their DPS breather so yes, they are forced to stack some accuracy to DPS.

And if you're going to argue that OT isn't required to DPS and should just be there to tank swap, you're wrong too:

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Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

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Bolding for emphasis. Source Here.

So, no, an OT can't just turn away, wait their turn to tank, tank swap then resume DPS. They have to contribute DPS to meet the checks the dev team brought forth.

Also, no, healer DPS isn't taken into account but the DPS they provide can prove help push an early clear yet they aren't forced to meld Accuracy either (just highly recommended too).

So, no, giving healer's a free pass on Accuracy checks IS NOT the solution you want to encourage. It's a cause of concern for future patches but we do not need such extreme measures as to "remove healer accuracy" when the rest of the REAL DPS (both DPS and tanks) need it to hit their marks and complete their roles.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

But for now i will disregard all people who is against the idea.. Untill they can come up with atless 10 reasons why it should not be allowed and why it be a bad idea to allow healers to be able to have full accuracy on cleric stance, when everythink points to improve healers effectiveness in raids/experts etc

Until then i see this as a brillient change towards healers

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Well, that's arbitrary.

Don't you think that if you gave Healer's a free check on accuracy that basically the entire OF would explode from tanks and DPS going "Why the hell do healer's get free accuracy when no one else does? THEY AREN'T EVEN MEANT TO DPS"

Tell me, what good reason is there to give Healer's a free pass on Accuracy when no other DPS class can? Give me ten reasons why it should be allowed and then maybe you might be taken more seriously.

That 5% hit rate is on top of the 5% we have now.... Tanks get 10% with tank buff on >.> remember this game when having accuracy we see number like 354 accuracy... This tank buff is a flat % buff... Go back and see how much rating u will need for that 5% accuracy buff

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

That 5% hit rate is on top of the 5% we have now.... Tanks get 10% with tank buff on >.> remember this game when having accuracy we see number like 354 accuracy... This tank buff is a flat % buff... Go back and see how much rating u will need for that 5% accuracy buff

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...Wut. How do you get a 10% buff? Nonetheless, not stacking enough accuracy for front checks is inefficient from a DPS stand point as well.

Got better idea.... Just bring back accuracy to healing gear... Problem solved....instead of having everyone argue about healer melding options

Im sick to death that healer is the only job role that will be melding accuracy where it could have been used on better materia that effect healing

Or give cleric stance some sort of accuracy buff to it...

Until then healers are screwed with deciding what to meld

Accurracy = support/healing
Det/crit/spd = Pure healing

Until something is done we will be at each other throats arguing etc... Which will confuse new healers or other healers seeking advice on what to meld... And tbh this is causing a lot of issues on the forums, reddit, and within the game due to healers dont know what to meld in there gear and are confused

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

That 5% hit rate is on top of the 5% we have now.... Tanks get 10% with tank buff on >.> remember this game when having accuracy we see number like 354 accuracy... This tank buff is a flat % buff... Go back and see how much rating u will need for that 5% accuracy buff

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You are right but in the wrong context.
With a defensive tank stance on, you need to hit 95% of the Frontal Accuracy requirements in order to not miss. This means you still need to bridge the gap of (Arbitrary % baseline) to Accuracy cap @ 95% which tends to be slightly higher than Flank accuracy requirements. Getting from 400 accuracy to 720ish for frontal cap with tank stance on is still quite a bit accuracy to gear up for and that is not counting if you try to optimize for frontal DPS, which both tanks and DPS will have to for some fights. This doesn't include tanks who occasionally drop defensive stances and go into offensive ones to squeeze extra dps while still in the front.

We, (Yes, I do this) have to make sure we have the proper accuracy to pull that off even if it means sacrificing an additional slot for that purpose.
Is it neccessary? No it is the choice that some of us make to try to optimize further. Just like you, or others who want to be able to contribute to DPS'ing who make that play style decision to sacrifice materia slots for accuracy.

That being said, there is no way for anyone to get a free pass on accuracy as it would allow 1 type of role to cheat the accuracy gaps brought by new and fresh content that requires players to gradually build up to beat it.

Not to mention the Meta ramifications of having healers be EVEN MORE forced into DPS that the developers might even have to consider either removing Clerics stance all together or including healing DPS within dps checks.

Edit for response:

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

Got better idea.... Just bring back accuracy to healing gear... Problem solved....instead of having everyone argue about healer melding options

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Honestly this can work but it would be best to implement it like DPS/Tank gear has it now.
You would have to sacrifice stats on certain gear to reach that accuracy limit.
In essence it would be the same now except you would have to be at the mercy of RNG or time to get the piece of gear you want instead of just melding what you have.

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

Until something is done we will be at each other throats arguing etc... Which will confuse new healers or other healers seeking advice on what to meld... And tbh this is causing a lot of issues on the forums, reddit, and within the game due to healers dont know what to meld in there gear and are confused

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I have a better idea. Healers choose what they want to do, and play how they want to.
Healers need to develop their own strengths and flow without having the Meta shift too heavily to one side.
This system right now may not be perfect but it allows you to meld to your preference without having to, as I previously said, be subject to time grinds or RNG dropping your ideal piece of accuracy loot.

Would a slight bonus to clerics stance help? Most definitely but you will not get the full accuracy or anywhere near it as it would enable premature accuracy bridging of newer content.

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

But for now i will disregard all people who is against the idea.. Untill they can come up with atless 10 reasons why it should not be allowed and why it be a bad idea to allow healers to be able to have full accuracy on cleric stance, when everythink points to improve healers effectiveness in raids/experts etc

Until then i see this as a brillient change towards healers

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There is nothing quite like putting your head in the sands.

If you feel so strongly about this issue, then maybe addess all the concerns people are bringing up in this thread instead of cherry picking the people you respond to.

I will reiterate this once again. Healer dps is NOT taken into account in raids. If you want to push progression in raids then you use healer dps. You have to put a lot of effort in to get out the quantity of healer dps required right now through melds. Giving healers 100% hit rate at a push of the button would require a fundemantal change in how raids are designed to take into account healer dps.

I was going to put something about how misinformed the tank anology is, but thankfully many others have addressed that issue.

I have to add this, but this accuracy problem were already mentioned by devs. They said, this is the way how they want FFXIV to be, customizable characters. But since many players concerned about healer DPS, they will let us know what changes they have later. But as it's now, this is how it will be and they looking forward to balance every jobs. Next step is DPS jobs.

I vote for an ilvl scaling accuracy buff on cleric stance. Not too much, just enough so that I don't have to meld to hit trash mobs in the current expert roulette dungeons. Raid progression? Yeah accuracy should be melded, but not for casual content, that's absurd.

Don't know what to say to this....................... healers should get a 5% hit chance but then that be to op cuz then they only need to get 95% of the acc cap with melding acc then det/ss/crit or piety depending if u want more aldo. Or a bit more aoes heals...... oh well

I'd rather not get accuracy on cleric stance. Need to hit some things when not in it, too, you know? (like energy drain) I'm not super offended by accuracy melds, though.

The thing is DPS gets accuracy on their gear, sacrificing a potential stat like det/ss/crit. We are given the choice as healers. I think materia was the perfect way to give us a choice. Cleric stance is fine.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

The thing is DPS gets accuracy on their gear, sacrificing a potential stat like det/ss/crit. We are given the choice as healers. I think materia was the perfect way to give us a choice. Cleric stance is fine.

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Choice is all well and good but only if:

A. Every healing class was on equal footing in this choice. If SCH dots land regardless of accuracy but a WHM's don't that is a disparity I'm not wholly okay with. I'm not sure about AST since mine isn't leveled very far but it feels like we should all be about the same in regards to our ability to land dps without wasting spots on accuracy if our role in late game is primarily healing.
B. Abilities like Energy Drain, Holy etc still maintained their utility effects even if the damage aspect misses the target. Our utility shouldn't suffer just because we decide to pick healing based stats over accuracy.
C. If we had enough natural accuracy not to struggle to hit things in casual content like expert roulette. When you find yourself with 20+ seconds of downtime but you miss six times in that 20 seconds when you try to dps, something isn't quite right. Either we should be able to dps efficiently without wasting mp at what is essentially 'faceroll' level content or we should have enough to do healing wise that we aren't standing around so much.

Sch still has an equal chance to miss on most skills like ENERGY DRAIN. Our hit rate as healers now is like 85% at 354 acc. We are not constantly missing for 20 whole seconds. Pick between crafted, midan, and lore for the stats you want THEN meld to 590ish accc and use light acc food and you won't miss again.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

The thing is DPS gets accuracy on their gear, sacrificing a potential stat like det/ss/crit. We are given the choice as healers. I think materia was the perfect way to give us a choice. Cleric stance is fine.

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Why not remove cleric stance altogether to give you the choice of wearing INT?

All ceric stance does is help ensure you can stat for your role while still allowing you to make significant contributions to your party when there is nothing left to heal.
^ an accuracy bonus would fall along the same line.

There are many forum posts suggesting to do just that. You would be directly buffing healer dps/healing by removing the 5 second foresight needed between healing and dpsing. You would just be lowering the skill cap.

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

Until then i see this as a brillient change towards healers

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brilliant*

"I'm an amazing genius until proven otherwise" is a poor stance to take. But whatever I'll play on your terms.

• #10: It's out of line with other designs. Even tanks get at best a 5% boost, even DPS have a chance to miss until fully geared. This says healers don't have to interact with the miss mechanic at all on any level and is therefore out line with the rest of the game's design.
• #9: It reduces build diversity. Right now even if they all aim to accuracy cap different healers doing different content get to build their gear differently. Folks wanting to go pure healer can forgo accuracy at all.
• #8: It's not immediately intuitive. A 10% increase is a 10% increase and easy to understand the value of a glance even for a casual player. To understand the value of never missing you have to understand how your miss rate changes across different content.
• #7: It will cause confusion or at least conflict with abilities that modify hit rates. If a mob has an ability that grants 100% evasion chance which way to reconcile this with always-hits cleric's stance? Your ability now either lies to the player ("Always Hits"* but sorry not really), or you have to account for healers having a loophole to the content. I suppose you could just let it shrink design space. Call that #6.
• #6: It possibly shrinks design space.
• #5: You can't tune it. With a % damage or even a % accuracy boost you can tune the effect up and down via patches at any time. Healer damage too low? Increase the effect of cleric's stance. Healer Damage too high? Lower it. This cannot be tuned without tacking on more text and complexity to the ability.
• #4: It devalues the abilities which already auto-hit, and which may demand they also be tuned to keep their relative power. Which may in term demand more tuning of other things.
• #3: It leaves players who have already invested in accuracy gear high and dry, alienating the player base.
• #2: It lowers the power ceiling for a lot of content. In content where the accuracy cap is not terribly high, players can now have 100% accuracy and +10% damage. Your change would mean they have only 100% accuracy, they get strictly nerfed.
• #1: It makes cleric's stance USELESS at any level of content below the level cap, and pretty far into level cap (Expert+) at that. You're taking an ability core for healer leveling, and solo activities like duty quests, FATEs and dailies and sacrificing it on an altar to the raiding concerns of 1% of the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Sch still has an equal chance to miss on most skills like ENERGY DRAIN. Our hit rate as healers now is like 85% at 354 acc. We are not constantly missing for 20 whole seconds. Pick between crafted, midan, and lore for the stats you want THEN meld to 590ish accc and use light acc food and you won't miss again.

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Well certainly not all the time but at my worst I /did/ miss Stone III six times in a row at item lvl 216 with no accuracy melds so it can get close to that. It's like being on the wrong side of the RNG gods. I also don't believe things like your Energy Drain regen or my Holy stun should miss even if the dps aspect does. I don't see why, if the goal is to give healers a choice, someone who /chooses/ to go full healing stats in melds should be punished with a loss of utility that has nothing to do with DPS. *shrug* I don't want cleric gone. I'd just like it to give us a small base increase to accuracy so the misses aren't /so/ terrible.

To be fair, this morning I missed Miasma 3 times in a row on the boss. Was it a waste of time and MP... well yes.

I still don't think that accuracy should be built into cleric stance though.

What they need to do is increase the visible number of debuffs on a single boss from 30 to the whole 60 at least on ps4/pc, so it doesn't just look like they've missed qq.

So, everyone else has to use their stat allowance on accuracy but it's not fair that a healer needs to use their materia slots for accuracy? Is that the debate being waged here?

And the op would give up the 10% bonus to feel better about thier melds?

I think White Mage should get a trait that gives Cleric 10% accuracy or something like that. (It can replace quickstone that is really useless)

Being able to meld ACC is a positive gain for healers, it's not a negative because we can decide how much we want as you can decide to gear up through crafted and/or tome gear so you have options. Considering in the past we didn't have the base option to get closer to accuracy cap without crafted gear, which wasn't all that great then. Before 3.0, healer gear just had nimble ACC which wasn't even close to final coil caps.

Now that even base dungeon ACC is higher you are finally seeing non-raiders starting to crop up about misses and caring more about the stat now. Yet you didn't hear a peep then, but yet we've been dealing with this at end-game level forever. Now that we get that option to make up ground on ACC with melding that also doesn't compromise our MND in a meaningful way, the difference is night-and-day. Yet there is still room to meld other secondaries like Crit and PIE where applicable especially on i220 crafted gear.

+1 for OP. Accuracy overall is a stupid stat to have in the first place, but it's even worse for healers because if you do decide to DPS, you actually have to give up secondary stats that could go towards your healing and that is just absurd. Choosing to DPS should not punish your healing stats.

It's really all just more gating and lockouts.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

I think White Mage should get a trait that gives Cleric 10% accuracy or something like that. (It can replace quickstone that is really useless)

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True. But developers want to keep it balanced. So CS would have the same effect on all healers. I don't really agree with OP that CS 10% damage should be replaced with 10% accuracy. You have around 370 accuracy without melding. 10% of that will be 37 accuracy which is pretty meh. 10% damage on other hand, is pretty huge.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

+1 for OP. Accuracy overall is a stupid stat to have in the first place, but it's even worse for healers because if you do decide to DPS, you actually have to give up secondary stats that could go towards your healing and that is just absurd. Choosing to DPS should not punish your healing stats.

It's really all just more gating and lockouts.

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You realize the piddling amount of secondary stats healers burn is nothing compared to the secondary stats tanks and melee have to burn, right? Maybe 200. Top.

That is not an excuse to justify a terrible system, even if it were true. If "well it's not as bad as x" is all it's got, it speaks for itself.

I'm totally fine with the way it is right now. You can easily reach the cap with melding. (3.0 was horrible!)
The Sub Stats are pretty weak nowadays for healers. And since you are able to only meld save slots, you won't gain that much that its worthy affecting healing.

The only thing i fear is the higher accuracy needed for 3.6 :(.

The point is that every job needs to give up X amount of points to accuracy in order to work at their optimum. Some people enjoy this, some people don't want any kind of a cost associated and just want to have the biggest numbers possible at all times, with minimal planning or consideration.

That is not the point at all. If everyone needed to just give up some points for accuracy they might as well get rid of it and lower the amount of melds possible, as it would be the same thing, but it's not.