A mid-core content for mid-core players.

No. Tank busters do not require party coordination. Tank pops cd or just eats it, healers heal. Basically...the roles do their jobs. No different from having a bunch of trash on you, except damage is much more controlled and very predictable.

Are you expecting this content you're making to be able to be cleared by a party of 8 dps? If not, you need reasons to have tanks abd heals, either through tank busters (like missile) or mobs that hit hard with all their attacks

Neat idea, but 2 things I don't like:

Fix the tome requirements because getting a bad group or someone who just happens to have crappy internet decides to go "POOF" on a boss fight instantly causes your run to end badly. bye 500 tomes that could've went toward my relic :/ Maybe use Amber drops from levequests? Idk, anything but tomes, like seriously X(

Also if boss difficulty is going to be primal tier then it can' be similar to EX modes. Why? Because EX modes have mechanics that could instanly wipe your party if you don't know whats coming. Boss casts "Waffle Sprinkles", fairly long cast, little do you know it petrifies anyone looking and increases damage taken, your party wipes on the next move, Lightning Squall which targets the healer which is a stack move, nuked. Maybe lower the difficulty to hard mode primals but also giving previous enemy mobs on the lower floors some of those mechanics it uses so the party will have a general idea before going into the fight.

Agreeing with some of the other comments, your idea of midcore and hardcore are pretty....awkward. Would you lower it if you didn't play with your current group and only allowed pugs? I'm pretty sure you'd change your mind.

The real problem with this game is the actual lack of progression you get from anything besides from the current content patch and with the Savage implementation.

Literally every patch is a reset with uncapped tomestones, a new primal, and 4 new normal/savage bosses. And useless 4 mans.
So the first thing is all of the content before the current patch is basically useless to the point where no one runs it for progression or for gear, only for vain mount drops(which is fine if you care about that stuff, just calling it what it is). So it leaves out any sense of progression you -could- be getting from "mid-core" content by actually having to do it by gearing up and going through content that would be relevant if it weren't for "content resets" every major patch.

We actually kind of saw this "fail" with Bismarck Ex being pretty much nothing but a block for Ravana Ex, since 180 gear was already in the game, why bother running it?

The next problem is the implementation of the "Savage" difficult for the special try-hard snowflakes this game seems to attract. Some will get mad at that statement but that's pretty much why we got Savage at all for SCoB.

The 3 binding coils of bahamut were already challenging enough in normal mode for most players that it actually required coordination, statics, and practice. Unlike the faceroll 24 mans and 8 man "normal"(pfft, aka, "Story")mode Alexander "raids"(aka super casual version of LFR).

The "Savage" mode should go back from being the only sensible means of progression this game offers(at this point in Heavensward) to being the mode that the special try-hard snowflakes do once they've already cleared everything and want a ridiculous challenge(if they have nothing else to do and want special titles and world firsts) for only the absolute top-tier teams.

After that, the normal versions of Alexander Gordias and Midas should be buffed up to 1st and 2nd coil difficulty standards, with the last wing of Alexander being on par with final coil standards. The whole thing of them being faceroll-tier for "story" and "casual" purposes just needs to be dropped, if players want to see the Alexander story, which isn't even the actual main-scenario and is technically a side quest, they should be willing to put in the time to clear the raids.

Next, there should be a major revision to vendor gear and the tomestone system(not a revision to the gear itself just the means of attainment) that actually forces players to progress through 'older' but still relevant content to be able to meet gear checks for newer raids. This is similar to the raid progression in the original WoW, where, aside from garbage itemization in the game's early state, you raided up from tiers 1 to 3, progressing through MC and becoming adequately geared for BWL, then becoming adequately geared for new 20 mans and AQ40, and so on. Say what you will about how extremely casual the raid process has become these days for both FFXIV and WoW but there's no doubt it kept content relevant.

So for example, to even think about stepping into Alexander Midas you would need a raid team adequately geared from doing Gordias which isn't out of the question at ALL considering how long Gordias was available before Midas launched. And to do Sephirot Ex comfortably to get the 220 weapon to progress easier through Midas you should have had to have done Gordias multiple times with a consistent static to gear up and gotten the 210 weapon from A4S.

Unfortunately the "natural" progression of PvE content is butchered with gear vendors and the tomestone system. I'm not saying they should be removed but they're a huge part of why each launch of an expansion and patch this game has huge chunks of content that literally just become "glamour runs". At this time I don't have any suggestions on how to revamp gear vendors and tomestones but again I feel like they contribute to the problem and maybe crafted gear to some extent.

Lastly, dungeons also need a gear revamp to make them relevant for purposes besides daily roulettes. And if Savage stopped dropping loot obviously some gear shuffling would need to take place.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

8 man savage mode dungeons that are not like your typical room corridor style of dungeon this game has. Bosses are about primal difficulty and require a decent amount of coordination and job knowledge but not as high as savage. The gear should match the difficulty of the dungeon with it being higher then your welfare tomestone garbage but lower then savage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ColorOfSakura

I mean, Thordan and Sephirot EX are pretty much the very basic idea "midcore" difficulty, based on the overall difficulty scale of the game.

---

Right, but seriously 500 tomes each to enter and you get kicked if you wipe once? Even to trash? RIP progression.

That's the part that I feel flies in the face of the "midcore" mentality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Right, but seriously 500 tomes each to enter and you get kicked if you wipe once? Even to trash? RIP progression.

That's the part that I feel flies in the face of the "midcore" mentality.

---

I never understood the appeal of basically getting your gonads squashed with a 5 tonze hammer every time you fail at something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dajinn

The real problem with this game is the actual lack of progression you get from anything besides from the current content patch and with the Savage implementation.

Literally every patch is a reset with uncapped tomestones, a new primal, and 4 new normal/savage bosses. And useless 4 mans.
So the first thing is all of the content before the current patch is basically useless to the point where no one runs it for progression or for gear, only for vain mount drops(which is fine if you care about that stuff, just calling it what it is). So it leaves out any sense of progression you -could- be getting from "mid-core" content by actually having to do it by gearing up and going through content that would be relevant if it weren't for "content resets" every major patch.

We actually kind of saw this "fail" with Bismarck Ex being pretty much nothing but a block for Ravana Ex, since 180 gear was already in the game, why bother running it?

The next problem is the implementation of the "Savage" difficult for the special try-hard snowflakes this game seems to attract. Some will get mad at that statement but that's pretty much why we got Savage at all for SCoB.

The 3 binding coils of bahamut were already challenging enough in normal mode for most players that it actually required coordination, statics, and practice. Unlike the faceroll 24 mans and 8 man "normal"(pfft, aka, "Story")mode Alexander "raids"(aka super casual version of LFR).

The "Savage" mode should go back from being the only sensible means of progression this game offers(at this point in Heavensward) to being the mode that the special try-hard snowflakes do once they've already cleared everything and want a ridiculous challenge(if they have nothing else to do and want special titles and world firsts) for only the absolute top-tier teams.

After that, the normal versions of Alexander Gordias and Midas should be buffed up to 1st and 2nd coil difficulty standards, with the last wing of Alexander being on par with final coil standards. The whole thing of them being faceroll-tier for "story" and "casual" purposes just needs to be dropped, if players want to see the Alexander story, which isn't even the actual main-scenario and is technically a side quest, they should be willing to put in the time to clear the raids.

Next, there should be a major revision to vendor gear and the tomestone system(not a revision to the gear itself just the means of attainment) that actually forces players to progress through 'older' but still relevant content to be able to meet gear checks for newer raids. This is similar to the raid progression in the original WoW, where, aside from garbage itemization in the game's early state, you raided up from tiers 1 to 3, progressing through MC and becoming adequately geared for BWL, then becoming adequately geared for new 20 mans and AQ40, and so on. Say what you will about how extremely casual the raid process has become these days for both FFXIV and WoW but there's no doubt it kept content relevant.

So for example, to even think about stepping into Alexander Midas you would need a raid team adequately geared from doing Gordias which isn't out of the question at ALL considering how long Gordias was available before Midas launched. And to do Sephirot Ex comfortably to get the 220 weapon to progress easier through Midas you should have had to have done Gordias multiple times with a consistent static to gear up and gotten the 210 weapon from A4S.

Unfortunately the "natural" progression of PvE content is butchered with gear vendors and the tomestone system. I'm not saying they should be removed but they're a huge part of why each launch of an expansion and patch this game has huge chunks of content that literally just become "glamour runs". At this time I don't have any suggestions on how to revamp gear vendors and tomestones but again I feel like they contribute to the problem and maybe crafted gear to some extent.

Lastly, dungeons also need a gear revamp to make them relevant for purposes besides daily roulettes. And if Savage stopped dropping loot obviously some gear shuffling would need to take place.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

---

I agree with most of what you're saying but I think you're forgetting the real special snowflakes are the casuals who cry for nerfs and swear elitism is actually wanting to get better at something. I get it casuals are good for keeping the game going but SE needs to stop bending over backwards for these people and stop lowering the bar or even they'll get bored and leave. Story mode was implemented b/c casuals or baddies cried about Coil being too hard. BCoB Savage was a fine idea and it gave hardcore players something to do.

But to add to what you're saying.... remove unsynced as this makes tons of content irrelevant and one of the great features this game had was level sync where you can enter a dungeon and be leveled down to it's level and yet they introduce this... Introduce ilevel syncs for ARR content where it won't go past 130 or w/e was the highest ilevel of ARR but keep it so that each patch's content also gets synced to w/e was the highest ilevel so my guess is 110 for 2.2/2.3 2.4/2.5 would be 130 and 90 for 2.0/2.1. Sorry if I got the ilevels wrong I'm just throwing out an idea.

SE also needs to stop doing shit like what they did with the current special event: Giving out Spriggan Hats for free. I earned my money to buy my own hat and others farmed for it or made their money to buy it why does SE feel he need to go full Marxist and start handing out things to people for little to no effort just to equalize the playing field?

Fucking socialists...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hellmach

**snip**

Fucking socialists...

---

**the last sentence quoted above was enough to convince me to ignore the rest of your diatribe**

Just a small point, but in my experience people using the word socialist as an insult, especially in combination with the other word you used haven't got a clue what a real socialist is. That aside, I wasn't aware that we had the same economic or political structures in Eorzea...as we do in the real world.

So, two things, politics belongs in the real world, please leave it there, and second, improve your vocabulary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PArcher

No. Tank busters do not require party coordination. Tank pops cd or just eats it, healers heal. Basically...the roles do their jobs. No different from having a bunch of trash on you, except damage is much more controlled and very predictable.

Are you expecting this content you're making to be able to be cleared by a party of 8 dps? If not, you need reasons to have tanks abd heals, either through tank busters (like missile) or mobs that hit hard with all their attacks

---

My fault. I wrote the wrong skill. "3000-Onze Missile" is the right one. Hydrothermal it's obviously not a cooperative mechanic. Again, sorry for the mistake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

**the last sentence quoted above was enough to convince me to ignore the rest of your diatribe**

Just a small point, but in my experience people using the word socialist as an insult, especially in combination with the other word you used haven't got a clue what a real socialist is. That aside, I wasn't aware that we had the same economic or political structures in Eorzea...as we do in the real world.

So, two things, politics belongs in the real world, please leave it there, and second, improve your vocabulary.

---

Maybe I should've used communist but I'm sorry I should be quiet because I'm just a savage and you're enlightened considering that it only took you reading the last two words of my message to know exactly what I was talking about. Your reading comprehension skills are above the average mortal but I'm sorry I will stop wondering how you accomplished this mighty feat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hellmach

Maybe I should've used communist but I'm sorry I should be quiet because I'm just a savage and you're enlightened considering that it only took you reading the last two words of my message to know exactly what I was talking about. Your reading comprehension skills are above the average mortal but I'm sorry I will stop wondering how you accomplished this mighty feat.

---

Or you could stop slinging around adjectives like "Marxist" and "socialist" in threads about freakin video games.

I mean, the Spriggan hats have been like 5k on the market board for months now anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Or you could stop slinging around adjectives like "Marxist" and "socialist" in threads about freakin video games.

I mean, the Spriggan hats have been like 5k on the market board for months now anyway.

---

The point of that last statement was that achievement in this game doesn't matter because SE just hands things out down the road or you can get it later for very little effort. The Spriggan hat is an example and the terms were used to make that last point sound more colorful.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...-8#q=hyperbole

Oh I'm sorry, I'm just an ignorant person speaking into the shining light that is your intellect. Carry on... I disappear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

snip

---

Your point about the item level it's totally amiss, read better the 12th feature. The 10% clear rate it's not on the player base, it's on the single run. Example : A3S was cleared from the 10% of the player base, but the statics that cleared it have a 80-90% of clear rate cause they are pro. Same thing on this, 10% is on a single run with all PUGs. With a static or organized group the clear rate is higher. And again if you read better the post, a mid-core content is a content based on basic mechanics, so dodge or pulls and so on (like Titan EX), any Coil or Alexander fight UPON RELEASE must be considered hard-core cause you NEED an organized party/static. It's a train wreck when people reply without reading the the first post properly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hellmach

The point of that last statement was that achievement in this game doesn't matter because SE just hands things out down the road or you can get it later for very little effort. The Spriggan hat is an example and the terms were used to make that last point sound more colorful.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...-8#q=hyperbole

Oh I'm sorry, I'm just an ignorant person speaking into the shining light that is your intellect. Carry on... I disappear.

---

Then next time you should use something that has actual meaning like the Lightning gear instead of a silly cheap hat you can dig up from coffers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Then next time you should use something that has actual meaning like the Lightning gear instead of a silly cheap hat you can dig up from coffers.

---

Translation: "I have no real counter argument so I'm nitpicking your example."

/thumbsup

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dajinn

The 3 binding coils of bahamut were already challenging enough in normal mode for most players that it actually required coordination, statics, and practice. Unlike the faceroll 24 mans and 8 man "normal"(pfft, aka, "Story")mode Alexander "raids"(aka super casual version of LFR).

The "Savage" mode should go back from being the only sensible means of progression this game offers(at this point in Heavensward) to being the mode that the special try-hard snowflakes do once they've already cleared everything and want a ridiculous challenge(if they have nothing else to do and want special titles and world firsts) for only the absolute top-tier teams.

After that, the normal versions of Alexander Gordias and Midas should be buffed up to 1st and 2nd coil difficulty standards, with the last wing of Alexander being on par with final coil standards. The whole thing of them being faceroll-tier for "story" and "casual" purposes just needs to be dropped, if players want to see the Alexander story, which isn't even the actual main-scenario and is technically a side quest, they should be willing to put in the time to clear the raids.

---

Best thing I've read in weeks. I couldn't agree more.

Raiding in 2.x really nailed it. The Coils of Bahamut were perfect difficulty for mid-core+ raiders. Savage was perfect for the true hardcores. For the casuals and the people who just aren't incredibly skilled, there were the 24-mans. There was something for everyone. Now everything is getting so dumbed down that people are bored and have little sense of accomplishment.

I used to post Coil clears on the front page of our FC website. I don't even bother with Alex Normal. That would be like posting news of a Void Ark clear.

Overall, a good idea but I think it would be better suited as a 4man thing. If it is hard enough to be more of a static type thing, smaller groups are better for many midcore people without raid statics, or those with statics can split into smaller groups to go based on overlapping schedules.

Too many midcore people stay out of raids simply because of time restrictions or inconsistent schedules making it not suitable to have a static.

Okay so since i should be studying, I might as well work out my idea I posted on the first page, see post #4: "What about a defend the castle-themed instance? Not an entire zone, and not the usual 'go there, kill everything, go deeper, kill everything' but something like defend This city or castle, where there are up to 10 paths with different bosses and interiors (ranging from a dungeon to alleys to inside the main keep) with their own rewards, but where killing certain mobs or talking to a certain npc triggers a certain path?"

Okay so this is based on a few things, like the 'defend Minas Tirith' level in the RotK game, Rift's Hammerknell raid, GW2's dungeon path system and my experiences in FF14 so far.
As of writing this, I have NOT played beyond lvl 54 yet.

So the setting would be a castle. Here it could be any Ishgardian castle. For now, the idea is 8, maybe 10 players. You start on the walls with the usual thrash, which will be called Map 1, and as you fail or succeed, you're forced to retreat to different places/having repelled the thrash assault go on to another place thats under siege, respectively map 2.1 and 2.2 from now. From 2.1 and 2.2 you'll be able to choose different paths, with different bosses and different mechanics, and maybe different loot, or just dropping a token which you can redeem for gear of your choice (Maybe redeemable tokens in NM, and real gear in HM). Possibly you can make 4 levels of gear, with 1. Loot from bosses from map 2.1 NM, 2. loot from bosses map 2.2 NM, 3. loot from weakest bosses map 2.1 HM and 4. loot from bosses map 2.2 HM.
The different bosses will require certain classes, for a certain point. An example would be running from a boulder that'll crush you, where you need the Bard's speed buff, cause you're TP is constantly drained due to a debuff. This is NOT gambling, when entering a dungeon with a certain party, as small hints will be shown, that give the party an idea what class is needed for that path (a picture of a music note implying bard songs next to an entrance).

The dungeon itself would be mediocre hard, it gives a challenge, and yes you might wipe, but its still easier than the hardest hardcore content, because lets be honest, even a dungeon with this replayability isn't fun when you clear all paths in 2-3 weeks. REMEMBER: this instance is less about dodging circles, beams or clearing dps checks, and more about a fun and innovative way to make certain classes needed in certain dungeons.

I'll continue to work on this, but for now back to studying, and please do let me know what you think of it :)

@Vieilocean not sure if we can tag people, but here's my idea a bit ;)

Quote:

---

A mid-core content for mid-core players

---

Quote:

---

The difficulty of this boss it must be like the fights of the Minstrel's Ballad, Ultima’s Bane and Thordan at the time of their respective releases. As I said at the beginning of this post, it’s a challenging content, so this boss must be killed with a single try. If the party wipes, all got kicked from the instance.

---

I just imagine how 'fun' learning Thordan EX would have been If you had to run some long instance for every time you wipe.
Is this really mid core or more geared toward true genius players and/or no lifers?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KogaDrake

Overall, a good idea but I think it would be better suited as a 4man thing. If it is hard enough to be more of a static type thing, smaller groups are better for many midcore people without raid statics, or those with statics can split into smaller groups to go based on overlapping schedules.

Too many midcore people stay out of raids simply because of time restrictions or inconsistent schedules making it not suitable to have a static.

---

The full party feature is to alleviate the pressure on only 4 people. With an 8 people party of PUGs if someone dies or disconnects there are 7 people left, and with 7 people it's hard to wipe and you can continue the content. With four people instead if the healer or the tank dies or disconnects, it's automatically a wipe. However my idea is that if the full party it's quite strong, the party can divide in two light party and go in different directions, first light party do quests 1-3-5-7-9, while the second light party do the quests 2-4-6-8-10. So a good party can clear the content in 50-60 mins, a more casual party can do all the quests togheter but will clear the content in 90-100mins. If helps, I can update the thread with these informations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OmegaStrongtan

I just imagine how 'fun' learning Thordan EX would have been If you had to run some long instance for every time you wipe.
Is this really mid core or more geared toward true genius players and/or no lifers?

---

And how fun instead is doing the same thing over and over again with 100% clear? You'll take the same rewards with or without the clear, so why do you want another content that you must farm like many others we already have?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hellmach

Translation: "I have no real counter argument so I'm nitpicking your example."

/thumbsup

---

Hey I offered you advice the next time you hyperbole. Don't be so down about it. We all make mistakes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rowyne

Best thing I've read in weeks. I couldn't agree more.

Raiding in 2.x really nailed it. The Coils of Bahamut were perfect difficulty for mid-core+ raiders. Savage was perfect for the true hardcores. For the casuals and the people who just aren't incredibly skilled, there were the 24-mans. There was something for everyone. Now everything is getting so dumbed down that people are bored and have little sense of accomplishment.

I used to post Coil clears on the front page of our FC website. I don't even bother with Alex Normal. That would be like posting news of a Void Ark clear.

---

Well, I'm still saying that every turn of every coil should be relevant for gearing purposes, not just the last turn to unlock the most recent coil. But yes, I agree with your take on my view.

Hell, even with only T5 and T9 being required to get into FCoB, at least the T9 weapon was still pretty decent that it made getting the 115 weapon actually relevant since it was usually better than the Shiva weapon and was a good interim until the tomestone from T10.

I also hate to say but I feel like the entire "system" in place is based and heavily reliant on console(the platform, e.g. PS3/PS4) accessibility. Like, I just can't see an MMO with more classic per-raid-tier content progression being popular or practical for the console format or for the console user base. So what we get instead is subpar content, gear vendors/gear resets, and the tomestone system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dajinn

The real problem with this game is the actual lack of progression you get from anything besides from the current content patch and with the Savage implementation.

Literally every patch is a reset with uncapped tomestones, a new primal, and 4 new normal/savage bosses. And useless 4 mans.
So the first thing is all of the content before the current patch is basically useless to the point where no one runs it for progression or for gear, only for vain mount drops(which is fine if you care about that stuff, just calling it what it is). So it leaves out any sense of progression you -could- be getting from "mid-core" content by actually having to do it by gearing up and going through content that would be relevant if it weren't for "content resets" every major patch.

We actually kind of saw this "fail" with Bismarck Ex being pretty much nothing but a block for Ravana Ex, since 180 gear was already in the game, why bother running it?

---

...and is also for this that I suggest this content. No progression of gear. Just fun and unique rewards in glamours and achievements. We already have a lot of contents for gear progression to farm.

Quote:

---

The next problem is the implementation of the "Savage" difficult for the special try-hard snowflakes this game seems to attract. Some will get mad at that statement but that's pretty much why we got Savage at all for SCoB.

The 3 binding coils of bahamut were already challenging enough in normal mode for most players that it actually required coordination, statics, and practice. Unlike the faceroll 24 mans and 8 man "normal"(pfft, aka, "Story")mode Alexander "raids"(aka super casual version of LFR).

The "Savage" mode should go back from being the only sensible means of progression this game offers(at this point in Heavensward) to being the mode that the special try-hard snowflakes do once they've already cleared everything and want a ridiculous challenge(if they have nothing else to do and want special titles and world firsts) for only the absolute top-tier teams.

After that, the normal versions of Alexander Gordias and Midas should be buffed up to 1st and 2nd coil difficulty standards, with the last wing of Alexander being on par with final coil standards. The whole thing of them being faceroll-tier for "story" and "casual" purposes just needs to be dropped, if players want to see the Alexander story, which isn't even the actual main-scenario and is technically a side quest, they should be willing to put in the time to clear the raids.

---

For me here you missed the point. Alexander Savage is already the old CoB in terms of content. They only add the normal mode to allow the casual players to see the story of the raid. Gordias Savage was too hard cause, during Fanfests and others conventions, people asked to Yoshi-p to realize a raid harder then CoB, but Yoshi-p went too far on this (he also admit it). In fact Midas Savage is way more near the old CoB in terms of difficulty.

Quote:

---

Next, there should be a major revision to vendor gear and the tomestone system(not a revision to the gear itself just the means of attainment) that actually forces players to progress through 'older' but still relevant content to be able to meet gear checks for newer raids. This is similar to the raid progression in the original WoW, where, aside from garbage itemization in the game's early state, you raided up from tiers 1 to 3, progressing through MC and becoming adequately geared for BWL, then becoming adequately geared for new 20 mans and AQ40, and so on. Say what you will about how extremely casual the raid process has become these days for both FFXIV and WoW but there's no doubt it kept content relevant.

So for example, to even think about stepping into Alexander Midas you would need a raid team adequately geared from doing Gordias which isn't out of the question at ALL considering how long Gordias was available before Midas launched. And to do Sephirot Ex comfortably to get the 220 weapon to progress easier through Midas you should have had to have done Gordias multiple times with a consistent static to gear up and gotten the 210 weapon from A4S.

Unfortunately the "natural" progression of PvE content is butchered with gear vendors and the tomestone system. I'm not saying they should be removed but they're a huge part of why each launch of an expansion and patch this game has huge chunks of content that literally just become "glamour runs". At this time I don't have any suggestions on how to revamp gear vendors and tomestones but again I feel like they contribute to the problem and maybe crafted gear to some extent.

Lastly, dungeons also need a gear revamp to make them relevant for purposes besides daily roulettes. And if Savage stopped dropping loot obviously some gear shuffling would need to take place.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

---

I agree on this. I'm in love with horizontal progression, I'm raised as mmo-player in GW1 where vertical progression was totally absent. And also for this I opened this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vieilocean

You're right, but an EX primal's Farm-parties disband after few tries cause you take the loot only if you clear it. In this content the loots are all over the instance, the last boss basically it's only for challenge's satisfaction.

---

You'd have people who really want that challenge satisfaction and are aiming to unlock and defeat the final boss, but they're paired up with other players who just want to explore a bit and do a couple of the easier quests and then leave. (That might be solvable by letting the later group leave when they want and those remaining recruit new members in-progress. But it's something to be considered when setting the system up.)

Cool idea overall

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OmegaStrongtan

I just imagine how 'fun' learning Thordan EX would have been If you had to run some long instance for every time you wipe.
Is this really mid core or more geared toward true genius players and/or no lifers?

---

Exactly. Severe punishments for failure =/= challenging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niwashi

You'd have people who really want that challenge satisfaction and are aiming to unlock and defeat the final boss, but they're paired up with other players who just want to explore a bit and do a couple of the easier quests and then leave. (That might be solvable by letting the later group leave when they want and those remaining recruit new members in-progress. But it's something to be considered when setting the system up.)

Cool idea overall

---

To resolve this eventuality I wrote the 13th point. With PF or an achievements system you can make different party before joining the instance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vidrian

Okay so since i should be studying, I might as well work out my idea I posted on the first page, see post #4: "What about a defend the castle-themed instance? Not an entire zone, and not the usual 'go there, kill everything, go deeper, kill everything' but something like defend This city or castle, where there are up to 10 paths with different bosses and interiors (ranging from a dungeon to alleys to inside the main keep) with their own rewards, but where killing certain mobs or talking to a certain npc triggers a certain path?"

Okay so this is based on a few things, like the 'defend Minas Tirith' level in the RotK game, Rift's Hammerknell raid, GW2's dungeon path system and my experiences in FF14 so far.
As of writing this, I have NOT played beyond lvl 54 yet.

---

The underlying idea it's pretty interesting. Nothing to add here.

Quote:

---

So the setting would be a castle. Here it could be any Ishgardian castle. For now, the idea is 8, maybe 10 players. You start on the walls with the usual thrash, which will be called Map 1, and as you fail or succeed, you're forced to retreat to different places/having repelled the thrash assault go on to another place thats under siege, respectively map 2.1 and 2.2 from now. From 2.1 and 2.2 you'll be able to choose different paths, with different bosses and different mechanics, and maybe different loot, or just dropping a token which you can redeem for gear of your choice (Maybe redeemable tokens in NM, and real gear in HM). Possibly you can make 4 levels of gear, with 1. Loot from bosses from map 2.1 NM, 2. loot from bosses map 2.2 NM, 3. loot from weakest bosses map 2.1 HM and 4. loot from bosses map 2.2 HM.
The different bosses will require certain classes, for a certain point. An example would be running from a boulder that'll crush you, where you need the Bard's speed buff, cause you're TP is constantly drained due to a debuff. This is NOT gambling, when entering a dungeon with a certain party, as small hints will be shown, that give the party an idea what class is needed for that path (a picture of a music note implying bard songs next to an entrance).
The dungeon itself would be mediocre hard, it gives a challenge, and yes you might wipe, but its still easier than the hardest hardcore content, because lets be honest, even a dungeon with this replayability isn't fun when you clear all paths in 2-3 weeks. REMEMBER: this instance is less about dodging circles, beams or clearing dps checks, and more about a fun and innovative way to make certain classes needed in certain dungeons.

---

1- A content of 8 players is more then enough. Too many people will be difficult to find.
2- What kind of gear? If it has a level-progression's rewards, the mid-core content idea it's totally killed.
3- The idea behind a content based on mechanics that requires specific jobs it's risky. Devs must create mechanics (paths) with equal difficulty, otherwise people will choose always the easier one. Also, mechanics imply coordination within the party, so the content requires more overall balancing cause you can risk to create another hard-core raid (Alexander) if the mechanics are too severe or another mindless dungeon if they're too easy. As I said it's surely risky, but not impossible.

The key to successful midcore content is having mechanics that only a few people need to do. That's what made things like Dynamis back in FFXI seem both simple and complex at the same time. Casual players just had to show up and provide muscle, while the regulars handled pulls, calling out nuke times, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thayos

The key to successful midcore content is having mechanics that only a few people need to do. That's what made things like Dynamis back in FFXI seem both simple and complex at the same time. Casual players just had to show up and provide muscle, while the regulars handled pulls, calling out nuke times, etc.

---

This is a good suggestion for sure. I do not like it much, cause you put the fate of the runs on few people while others has zero responsability. It can works for sure, but I'll stay with my idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vieilocean

I do not like it much, cause you put the fate of the runs on few people while others has zero responsability.

---

What Thayos said is actually pretty normal for a lot of raiders using ventrilo/teamspeak though. Raiding throughout WoW, Swtor, and a few other games as a raider or a raid leader, we always designated a person as a "caller" that called out the main mechanics to watch out for, having one person focus on calling out mechanics freed up other people to worry about other things and we kept the channels clear so everyone was able to hear them and pay attention. Other people only called out relevant mechanics if they had to, i.e. the caller would warn us of major attacks while the tanks would call to each other for swaps or cleave mechanics.

Who your caller is depends on the fight and your group. In one guild I was in, the main tank (usually me) would call out mechanics but in fights where I was tanking a particularly large raid boss and couldn't see what was happening, I'd have one of the healers or dps do it. In another it was always our raid leader who was a ranged dps that did it. You get the idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khalithar

What Thayos said is actually pretty normal for a lot of raiders using ventrilo/teamspeak though. Raiding throughout WoW, Swtor, and a few other games as a raider or a raid leader, we always designated a person as a "caller" that called out the main mechanics to watch out for....

---

What Thayos said is that in a party of 8 people for example, 3 DO mechanics and others bring muscles. So only 3 people actually have the resposability of the entire run. What you suggest is like what happen in raids also in FFXIV, that there are people who CALLS mechanics for others but ALL MUST DO those mechanics, it's like what happen when me and my static cleared T9 Savage, I was the one that called the last phase's divebombs, but all known what to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Hey I offered you advice the next time you hyperbole. Don't be so down about it. We all make mistakes.

---

"I still can't take the hint that I missed the example"

It's ok. If you try real hard you can process this concept better next time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Neat idea, but 2 things I don't like:

Fix the tome requirements because getting a bad group or someone who just happens to have crappy internet decides to go "POOF" on a boss fight instantly causes your run to end badly. bye 500 tomes that could've went toward my relic :/ Maybe use Amber drops from levequests? Idk, anything but tomes, like seriously X(

---

The tomes' fee is only an example for keeping away trolls but it can be changed with another feature that has the same aim. I think however that's a pretty good feature, you pay 300-500 tomes but every elite quest cleared gives you 100-150tomes back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Also if boss difficulty is going to be primal tier then it can' be similar to EX modes. Why? Because EX modes have mechanics that could instanly wipe your party if you don't know whats coming. Boss casts "Waffle Sprinkles", fairly long cast, little do you know it petrifies anyone looking and increases damage taken, your party wipes on the next move, Lightning Squall which targets the healer which is a stack move, nuked. Maybe lower the difficulty to hard mode primals but also giving previous enemy mobs on the lower floors some of those mechanics it uses so the party will have a general idea before going into the fight.

---

I'll remain with my idea of EX like final boss. The content it's not meant for a sure clear, if you put an hard mode it will be for sure a 100% clear after the first kill. It must be challenging and giving you satisfaction. The last boss it's a bonus, you do not have to clear the content to have rewards, they're all over the content. And also, after the first group will clear it (like Elysium do with Alex Savage), there will be videos and guides that will explain the fight to everyone. As I said it's a content that must last till the end of the game, if the first clear arrives after three months from the release of the content it won't be an issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Agreeing with some of the other comments, your idea of midcore and hardcore are pretty....awkward. Would you lower it if you didn't play with your current group and only allowed pugs? I'm pretty sure you'd change your mind.

---

Casual = contents puggable also with monkeys. (24man raids, all roulettes)

Mid-core = contents puggable with good and organized players. (Trial EX)

Hard-core = contents not puggable on release, where you must have a static to have a chance to clear them. (Alexander Savage)

Maybe I have an old-school-mmo midcore idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vieilocean

stuff

---

A3S destroyed statics left and right, it caused people to switch servers to find replacements for their statics or to find brand new statics, even months after Savage was released. Also read what you said "80-90% clear rate cause they are pro" that means midcore players would have at least 79% clear rate, if a midcore group had 79% per your example A3S wouldn't be as hellacious as is. You claim Titan EX was midcore? Titan EX was one of the hardest fights next to Ifrit EX, because of the mechanics, those mechanics can still wipe players who miss one step even if they cleared it X number of times. Not a single EX was able to done in DF on release, it relied on PF and they still have a higher clear rate, Thordan was cleared day one on EX on Jenova by multiple parties, impart on the fact the fight is entirely all of 2.5-3.0 and even Sephirot was cleared in the first few days by many groups, and it's considered harder then THEX. Your content isn't designed for midcore groups at all, the moment people start wiping on your content and get kicked out of the instance is the moment it dies. Your content doesn't allow learning so even high end groups that wipe won't even do it because they can't jump right back into the fight. That time spent trying to understand that one fight and having to redo all the other fights before hand, would be better off being applied to the current raid or gearing up side jobs in many players eyes. It is a train wreck.

I like the idea behind this, it'd need a bit more fleshing out but on paper, it sounds like what I'd HOPED Diadem would be when I very first heard about that! I'd play this content happily!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vidrian

What about a defend the castle-themed instance? Not an entire zone, and not the usual 'go there, kill everything, go deeper, kill everything' but something like defend This city or castle, where there are up to 10 paths with different bosses and interiors (ranging from a dungeon to alleys to inside the main keep) with their own rewards, but where killing certain mobs or talking to a certain npc triggers a certain path?

---

Kinda like the hamlet defense stuff from the 1.x series? I'd dig this too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilitsa

I like the idea behind this, it'd need a bit more fleshing out but on paper, it sounds like what I'd HOPED Diadem would be when I very first heard about that! I'd play this content happily!



Kinda like the hamlet defense stuff from the 1.x series? I'd dig this too.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vieilocean

The underlying idea it's pretty interesting. Nothing to add here.



1- A content of 8 players is more then enough. Too many people will be difficult to find.
2- What kind of gear? If it has a level-progression's rewards, the mid-core content idea it's totally killed.
3- The idea behind a content based on mechanics that requires specific jobs it's risky. Devs must create mechanics (paths) with equal difficulty, otherwise people will choose always the easier one. Also, mechanics imply coordination within the party, so the content requires more overall balancing cause you can risk to create another hard-core raid (Alexander) if the mechanics are too severe or another mindless dungeon if they're too easy. As I said it's surely risky, but not impossible.

---

The start could be like a short version of the combat part, and no 50 hour preparation part. But then it'd more go into different segments where you need a few specific classes per path to know their job, and the others can just mindlessly zerg, which seems to be the main idea behind Mid-core. So for example, in 1 path you need an experienced bard and dragoon, and the rest of the party can just be any class.

The reason people won't farm 1 path, is because different paths drop gear for different classes :)
Maybe there is a certain level progression in gear, but thats not always a bad thing, because if you don't offer gear, but something like mats/mounts/pets, people will stop doing it the moment they get their item. Plus not everyone can even use the rewards, if you were to offer special crafting mats, cause not everyone does crafting or gathering.

The reason people won't farm 1 path, is because different paths drop gear for different classes :)
Maybe there is a certain level progression in gear, but thats not always a bad thing, because if you don't offer gear, but something like mats/mounts/pets, people will stop doing it the moment they get their item. Plus not everyone can even use the rewards, if you were to offer special crafting mats, cause not everyone does crafting or gathering.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

A3S destroyed statics left and right, it caused people to switch servers to find replacements for their statics or to find brand new statics, even months after Savage was released. Also read what you said "80-90% clear rate cause they are pro" that means midcore players would have at least 79% clear rate, if a midcore group had 79% per your example A3S wouldn't be as hellacious as is.

---

First, who said that A3S is easy? It's an hardcore content, and for months after I mean after it's patch cycle is finished. In fact in 3.2 A3S got nerfed, now it's easier. Second, I think you have some kind of problem with statistics. 80%-90% of clearing A3S it's not on first try but after the clear, and yes maybe Elysium had 100% clear of A3S when they did it weekly for progress on A4S. Who of the midcore statics that clear A3S later (4-5 months after release) they surely had a 79% of clearing it. So my 10% it's not on the community that clear the content after six months, but it's on the single runs. Obviously 10% with all pugs with moderate experience of the whole content, but for organized party-statics the % on single run it's higher, surely not 10%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

You claim Titan EX was midcore? Titan EX was one of the hardest fights next to Ifrit EX, because of the mechanics, those mechanics can still wipe players who miss one step even if they cleared it X number of times. Not a single EX was able to done in DF on release, it relied on PF and they still have a higher clear rate, Thordan was cleared day one on EX on Jenova by multiple parties, impart on the fact the fight is entirely all of 2.5-3.0 and even Sephirot was cleared in the first few days by many groups, and it's considered harder then THEX.

---

For sure, Titan EX was a midcore content and yes was a challenging content (midcore). Which mechanics? Maybe the "gaols" were the only mechanics of the fight, all others were : aoes, tank crushers, tank' switchs and dps' checks. These are all basic mechanics and you could clear it (like I did on release) with pugs, obviously organized party starting in pf with phase 1 till phase 5 and the kill parties. You may have a different idea of midcore but for me it's not midcore=easy content. Hardcore contents are like savages cause there're mechanics that needs a lot of coordination between the party members and dps checks more severe. Midcore contents are like a Titan EX, basic mechanics at their limit and moderate dps checks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Your content isn't designed for midcore groups at all, the moment people start wiping on your content and get kicked out of the instance is the moment it dies. Your content doesn't allow learning so even high end groups that wipe won't even do it because they can't jump right back into the fight. That time spent trying to understand that one fight and having to redo all the other fights before hand, would be better off being applied to the current raid or gearing up side jobs in many players eyes. It is a train wreck.

---

Again, give a better read to the first post. You take the same rewards from the trash mobs till the last boss. The trash mobs have the RNG, the final boss has two sure drops. With a lucky run you can have 10 items dropped with 8 from trash mobs and mid-bosses and 2 only from last boss. And again, the mid-bosses are a harder version from the dungeon' ones, so the only that take many tries to clear it it's the last boss, and for a content that must last for the entire game's life not for only a patch cycle, it's quite fair. So yes, this content it's coherent with my idea of midcore.

Most extreme primals could count as a type of midcore content, but Titan Ex might have been the exception, simply because the penalties of anyone screwing up were so crushing.

Midcore content should be difficult, but not prohibitively so. Whatever shape it takes, it shouldn't be so hard that people clear it once, go on "farm" status and never want to go through the hell of helping others. Midcore content should be like sky/dynamis/limbus from XI... it should be somewhat inviting and offer ways for new people to jump right in without dooming runs to failure. Otherwise, newer players will continue to be excluded, and nothing will be achieved.

It looks like another version of Diadem (Hard) but no flying and no gathering. ^^;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thayos

Most extreme primals could count as a type of midcore content, but Titan Ex might have been the exception, simply because the penalties of anyone screwing up were so crushing.

Midcore content should be difficult, but not prohibitively so. Whatever shape it takes, it shouldn't be so hard that people clear it once, go on "farm" status and never want to go through the hell of helping others. Midcore content should be like sky/dynamis/limbus from XI... it should be somewhat inviting and offer ways for new people to jump right in without dooming runs to failure. Otherwise, newer players will continue to be excluded, and nothing will be achieved.

---

Your point is correct, but the two contents are quite different. The only comparison that you should make is on the difficulty.
People in the EX Trials as you said "clear it once, go on farm status and never want to go through the hell of helping others" because :

- is a single fight that you repeat over and over again; while my content is an entire map with a lot more of things to do, more variety.
- the rewards can be obtained only if you clear it; while in my content you receive rewards all over the content not only on clear.
- there ilev progress so people MUST clear it and also fast; while in my content there is not ilev, only glamour and glory.
- veteran players after an obliged farm for ilev' progress do not have any will to help others; while in my content veteran or new players can play togheter or in specific parties thanks to the "achievement system".

Also if the last boss will be punishing like Titan EX there's no problem cause : you have the SAME rewards all over the content, you'll not be in rush for ilev, you have a lot of variety and people can play or help others thanks to the "Achievement System".