DPS checks vs mechanics

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

The DPS check in a fight is just another mechanic. It adds engaging gameplay. If all a player had to do was just show up, run in circles, and there was zero pressure or incentive to play your job effectively the entire chemistry of the game would be demolished. So, um, a DPS check is a mechanic.

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Most dps checks kills morale. It get to the point where no one wants to run anything anymore.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

DPS check is an artificial why to make all roles pull their equal share in the encounter. Healers and tank have a very visual indicator on whether they are good enough for the encounter, dps is less visible so SE added the "DPS Check". If tank can't meet the requirement, wipe. If healers can't keep up, wipe. If dps can't meet the requirement, just takes a very loooong time.

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Mmmm no. Don't get me wrong, you're right, but not on FF XIV, since players react to dps check claiming more dps from tanks and healers. For this reason, right now dps checks on FFXIV are totally useless, just more work for healers and tanks.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

I love how people leave out the equation of some people cheat to win these fights. Se is a lot more lenient on people who use bots to perform thier dps rotation and no telling how many high end Raiders use bots so no having harsh dps checks only breeds more cheaters.

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I've always wondered that, man. I mean, I'm sad as a NIN now because I feel like I pour my all into my attacks. One minute, someone parse me at 1200. Another minute, I'm parsed at 900. Someone with less gear than me is parsing 1300 on the same job. When I watch them, you see very little movement (they stay behind for Armor Crush whereas I'm on the flank for it). I just don't get it.

It got so bad that I play PLD now, and ended up NOT getting Kannagi, but Almace instead.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I've always wondered that, man. I mean, I'm sad as a NIN now because I feel like I pour my all into my attacks. One minute, someone parse me at 1200. Another minute, I'm parsed at 900. Someone with less gear than me is parsing 1300 on the same job. When I watch them, you see very little movement (they stay behind for Armor Crush whereas I'm on the flank for it). I just don't get it.

It got so bad that I play PLD now, and ended up NOT getting Kannagi, but Almace instead.

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Parses depend on the parse settings as well. and the fights, how often you are engaged in combat, there are many variables. as for bots, i dont think you can bot the more intricate fights. thats giving bots too much credit.

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Originally Posted by NaySilver

Mmmm no. Don't get me wrong, you're right, but not on FF XIV, since players react to dps check claiming more dps from tanks and healers. For this reason, right now dps checks on FFXIV are totally useless, just more work for healers and tanks.

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SE can create a situation where the tanks and healers are seperated from the DPS, where the DPS then have to beat down objects/machinery in order to free the tanks and healers before they get KO'd.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Most dps checks kills morale. It get to the point where no one wants to run anything anymore.

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Most DpS checks are cleared with no problems if the dps are paying attention. Problems start occurring when the dps checks are so tight when released that the RNG of whether a single attack was a hit, miss or crit determines if you passed or failed. This was actually happening in A3S and A4S. Groups could get lucky and pass the check one run and then fail it the next even if they did exactly the same as the first run because the RNG wasn't nice to them during the second run.

I'm on a phone so I can't edit. You probably don't give bots enough credit. If the top 10 guilds on wow uses them for server firsts then it's conceivable it happens on here. Ff 14 more closely resembles wow then any other mmo and all fights are scripted dance routines which is perfect for bots.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

I hate the concept of wiping if the DPS check is failed. I'd rather have large damage or a debuff or something inflicted instead of a wipe. Something player skill could recover from. Because of the DPS or wipe mechanics, fights are too scripted. If things don't go 100% as planned, people give up and wipe. I'd prefer fights that give you a chance to recover from a failed DPS check.

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Depending on the fight, I agree.

I've seen rather clown-shoes almost improvised methods of clearing A1S, A2S, and Thordan EX. However, A3S and A4S clears are almost all pretty identical. Positioning strategies might be slightly different, but the way to avoid mechanics remains the same.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Depending on the fight, I agree.

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It makes me sad inside that anyone would agree with this. It just shoves DPS responsibility smack onto healers and says "we can't do it carry us!". Please don't hate your healers. :(

Where the problem at?

DPS Checks cause players to adapt and push their classes hard while finding optimal ways to perform mechanics.

Most mechanics aren't that difficult, dummy dpsing isn't that difficult....combining the two is much more difficult.

Combining Tanking + DPSing - more difficult
Combining Healing + DPSing - more difficult.

Accusing Top players of using bots to reach that level of skill to make yourself feel better about sub-optimal skill levels is on a whole new level of low.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

I'm on a phone so I can't edit. You probably don't give bots enough credit. If the top 10 guilds on wow uses them for server firsts then it's conceivable it happens on here. Ff 14 more closely resembles wow then any other mmo and all fights are scripted dance routines which is perfect for bots.

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What planet is this dude on? That aside, this whole topic is still ridiculous. Every player has to do mechanics, like dodge aoes. The Healers have to meet a check by keeping players alive through damage that can not be mitigated or by removing debuffs. The tank has to deal with a check in the form of managing their cooldowns in order to avoid lethal damage or to keep another party member safe from enemies through enmity management. The DPS role's check is in the form of their damage output while performing mechanics like grabbing the adds in Alexander Fist of the Father, or opening the tube in Fractal Continuum. If you removed the necessity of damage from a fight, you're effectively getting rid of one of the core components of the game, in addition to making the other job's tasks way more difficult. So instead of a wipe it just makes the Healer's job like ten times harder because you're failing something? Here's the deal: In difficult content there are four DPS and two Healers. If the four of you combine to fail something, what realistic chance do you think the two of them have of overcoming it? This whole topic is nonsense at this point. I don't even know what example there is of content other than the poorly tuned Alexander Savage you could give as an example that isn't easy to beat.

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Originally Posted by Syrehn

It makes me sad inside that anyone would agree with this. It just shoves DPS responsibility smack onto healers and says "we can't do it carry us!". Please don't hate your healers. :(

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Too late. World first groups need healer DPS to cover for their own poorly geared DPS not being properly geared, so everyone's expected to cover for bad dps instead of helping them actually be good.

Note that I consider any poorly geared DPS to be bad regardless of the reason.

Except for the fact that the gear isn't made readily available, so saying a DPS is bad because they are incapable of having gear that they literally can't because it is gated behind some sort of time mechanic is foolish. Rework your standards. The reason healer DPS was a thing in those groups is because they literally couldn't get the gear to meet the checks. It was a way around it.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Most dps checks kills morale. It get to the point where no one wants to run anything anymore.

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When I see this, I also see "Failing mechanics kills morale." If you are failing a mechanic that is the core part of your class, you go learn how to overcome it. The raids are meant to be challenging, and you are supposed to overcome these obstacles to complete them. If I were to say something like "Healers having heal checks is bad" would you not read it as "Making healers heal is bad"

They have gone and said that perhaps the savage ones were tuned a bit too high, and I believe they use the checks a bit too much, but dps checks in general don't kill morale. Dps not knowing their roll by the time they reach end game does. It goes the same for getting a tank that doesn't know their CD, or healers that would only use the basic spells.

I think DPS checks are actually good ways to practice rotations if you want to output high damage numbers. The trainig dummy thing next patch will make that irrelevant though.
I always thought actually doing the fight and seeing how you can get with your current gear set up and rotation was a better way at getting feedback on your performace than just hitting a dummy at a FC house.

Obviously don't go with that mindset in anything other than practice parties.

I agree with less pressure on the DPS checks. I can't be the only person that thinks "kill these adds in time or the boss one shots you for some reason" is a bit overdone.

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Originally Posted by Yasuhiro

I think DPS checks are actually good ways to practice rotations if you want to output high damage numbers.

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You are exactly right. Just hitting a dummy does not compare at all to fight dynamics. It only means you have a general idea of how your class performs.

Fitting in those clutch moves before getting one shot, efficient add swapping to utilize your greatest pps skills, AOE/resource management CD management for the greatest usage. The list goes on for days and is not something you can learn from simple dummy tests.
These are mechanics in of themselves on different fights that require a different DPS approach to meet these checks on top of anything else in the fight.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

I hate the concept of wiping if the DPS check is failed. I'd rather have large damage or a debuff or something inflicted instead of a wipe. Something player skill could recover from. Because of the DPS or wipe mechanics, fights are too scripted. If things don't go 100% as planned, people give up and wipe. I'd prefer fights that give you a chance to recover from a failed DPS check.

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This has been done, back in BCoB. The final ADS in T2 has a hard enrage, but it will only start spamming heavy raid-wide attacks, not instantly wipe the raid. Result? People took 3 healers, waited for the enrage, and killed it while healers took turns spamming AoE heals because it meant not heaving to deal with any other mechanics.

Also, insta-kill hard-enrages are also meant to stop groups from fighting bosses for hours - it's the same reason we have time limits in duties. SE doesn't want any more Absolute Virtues.

They are overused. Game focuses to much on dps. Even for tanks dps is more important than mitigation most of the time.

Personally I'd like to see mechanics in encounters that actually require the correct use of skills like leg sweeps, blunt arrows, shield swipes and even sleeps, heavies and binds.

At the moment all the skills associated with these abilities are spammed solely for the dps increase they provide. The way things are presently they well as well not exist at all.

Be nice to see things that had to be pacified or stunned or groups of mobs that had to be slept or heavier and kited.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

They are overused. Game focuses to much on dps. Even for tanks dps is more important than mitigation most of the time.

Personally I'd like to see mechanics in encounters that actually require the correct use of skills like leg sweeps, blunt arrows, shield swipes and even sleeps, heavies and binds.

At the moment all the skills associated with these abilities are spammed solely for the dps increase they provide. The way things are presently they well as well not exist at all.

Be nice to see things that had to be pacified or stunned or groups of mobs that had to be slept or heavier and kited.

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Now this is something I can agree with.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Too late. World first groups need healer DPS to cover for their own poorly geared DPS not being properly geared, so everyone's expected to cover for bad dps instead of helping them actually be good.

Note that I consider any poorly geared DPS to be bad regardless of the reason.

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I do realize that world first groups do have their healers dpsing (as do other groups). I honestly don't think going for a world first and trying to eke out every little drop is remotely the same as your average players saying:

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Originally Posted by Brill_

I hate the concept of wiping if the DPS check is failed. I'd rather have large damage or a debuff or something inflicted instead of a wipe. Something player skill could recover from.

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In the above scenario (where large scale damage/debuff goes out instead of a wipe) not only are the healers doing their required role of healing, and likely dpsing a much as they can to help out, their skill would then be required to save the entire party from a wipe that is caused by dps under-performance. This in turn either leads to additional unnecessary strain on the healers or groups subbing out dps for more healers so they can cheese the fight. :/

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Most dps checks kills morale. It get to the point where no one wants to run anything anymore.

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Nobody complained about the DPS check during Ark 2nd boss (kill the adds or be ready to wipe). Only complained about dozy DPS players who ignored adds and therefore failed the DPS check on them (kill them in time). Or the DPS check during the white room phase in Chrysalis. Or the one during the cloud phase in the Cloud of Darkness battle (kill them before they reach her). Or during Zombie Dragon (kill the skeleton adds before they reach the boss and before the boss die).

1 content with a overdone DPS check =/= all DPS checks in all contents are bad

Remove DPS checks and many battles will be boring to death. At least as a DPS player. Why playing a DPS player if damage will be not importent anymore? If we can reach the same result with auto-attack?

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Originally Posted by Dzian

They are overused. Game focuses to much on dps. Even for tanks dps is more important than mitigation most of the time.

Personally I'd like to see mechanics in encounters that actually require the correct use of skills like leg sweeps, blunt arrows, shield swipes and even sleeps, heavies and binds.

At the moment all the skills associated with these abilities are spammed solely for the dps increase they provide. The way things are presently they well as well not exist at all.

Be nice to see things that had to be pacified or stunned or groups of mobs that had to be slept or heavier and kited.

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Several fights require the use of silences and stuns (A3S and A4S most recently). But yes, more would be better.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Nobody complained about the DPS check during Ark 2nd boss (kill the adds or be ready to wipe). Only complained about dozy DPS players who ignored adds and therefore failed the DPS check on them (kill them in time). Or the DPS check during the white room phase in Chrysalis. Or the one during the cloud phase in the Cloud of Darkness battle (kill them before they reach her). Or during Zombie Dragon (kill the skeleton adds before they reach the boss and before the boss die).

1 content with a overdone DPS check =/= all DPS checks in all contents are bad

Remove DPS checks and many battles will be boring to death. At least as a DPS player. Why playing a DPS player if damage will be not importment anymore? If we can reach the same result with auto-attack?

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People did complain, actually, but not as much. In Ark, you could still pass it with a few deaths. Savage, on the other hand, requires everyone to be alive as well as beating the timer.

There has to be some kind of dps check because you could just take 6 tanks 2 healers no need for dps we just need 6 guys who have a lot of hp and are really hard to kill plus some healers and it can take as long as we want to kill the boss.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

People did complain, actually, but not as much. In Ark, you could still pass it with a few deaths. Savage, on the other hand, requires everyone to be alive as well as beating the timer.

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On our last a3s kill, our bard died about 4 times in final phase(where dps matters) in addition to getting the boss a damage-stack through embolus mechanic fail (making me force to tank in tankstance more than usual), but we still killed it with about 20 secs ahead of enrage. We were actually amazed to be able to do this, so just keep trying, even if your dps dies a couple of times. Feels really good too!
But yeah, I dont see too much room of error in A4s as it is now with available gear and inherent dps check, at least for our group, but I see it being doable with 1 or 2 unnecessary deaths if everyone else is on top of their game.

So yes, what i want to say with my anecdote is, the savage dps checks might be challenging, especially alongside difficult mechanics, but from what I hear from people, some are kind of exaggerating it's severity.
If anything, I think it was more the mechanics that's breaking some groups up tbh, a3s is pretty convoluted to grasp at first and a4s isnt very exciting by design and very drawn out. On topic of A4S, I think it's main difficulty lies more on the required coordination and the amount of outgoing damage the healers have to deal with, the A4S dps check is in comparison to the A4S healer-check pretty timid.