My concerns about a "worldless model" what are yours?

holy necro thread batman!

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Originally Posted by Jinko

This 100 times this !!

Make a half LS party half content finder group.

How anyone thinks that a random in Ul'dah is going to be any different than a random on another server is beyond me.

There is the same chance of meeting an Ahole, the same chance that person maybe a noob, maybe a ninja looter etc etc blady blah blah.

People need to stop coming up with strawman arguments about this stuff.

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A random in uldah who is a dush, or ninjas gear, or anything of the sort, would soon be labled, and known as such.

Holy crap Bobby stop necroing old ass threads to try and make it look like more people are against dungeon finder than there really is

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Originally Posted by Wincy

Like I've said before, for me it isn't the fact that the person is from another server. I could care less about that. My problem will be if we get insta-ported to dungeons all over the world, a la WoW. I play games like this to get into the world and experience the lore (especially Final Fantasy, come on). I want to "touch it and feel it."

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I agree with you, but as someone said either in this thread or many of the others ones like it (grumbles), it's possible SE will make us traverse to the dungeon and queue just the same. (of course this is being added as a means of convenience so that may not happen)

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The LFD functionality of WoW is outside of the world. They can't even be bothered to say "hey you can acquire this newfangled device that the Gnomes invented which utilizes a search network for adventurers, then magically teleports you all to a location together." I hope I am making sense? The way it is set up is just this random menu, disconnected from the fantasy of the world...

So I don't think I'm asking for too much, make it a cool quest to acquire this Content Finder and ground it within the lore of Eorzea.

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Yup, I would be totally Ok if you had to run to the dungeon entrance and talk to an NPC or use a magiteck device to look for players.

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Originally Posted by Aldwin

A random in uldah who is a dush, or ninjas gear, or anything of the sort, would soon be labled, and known as such.

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Yea and two weeks later everybody would have forgoten, what happens to a small group of 8 people or 1 LS even is not going to get very far.

And personally I am tired of listening to gossip in these games, people can make up just as much bullshit about someone as they can tell the truth.

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Originally Posted by Wincy

Like I've said before, for me it isn't the fact that the person is from another server. I could care less about that. My problem will be if we get insta-ported to dungeons all over the world, a la WoW. I play games like this to get into the world and experience the lore (especially Final Fantasy, come on). I want to "touch it and feel it."

The LFD functionality of WoW is outside of the world. They can't even be bothered to say "hey you can acquire this newfangled device that the Gnomes invented which utilizes a search network for adventurers, then magically teleports you all to a location together." I hope I am making sense? The way it is set up is just this random menu, disconnected from the fantasy of the world...

So I don't think I'm asking for too much, make it a cool quest to acquire this Content Finder and ground it within the lore of Eorzea.

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You do realize that you will teleport to the crystal and from there walk a big maximum of 5min. Is that 5min worth the 1h wait to find a group? Besides, when it is your 20th time doing the dungeon, would you still care about doing that 5min walk and seeing the same stuff over and over? When you party with your LS you can walk all you want together, nothing will force you to teleport anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Darkhaund

I have played FF11, WoW for quite a while and I see the benefits and cons of each game. And as we all know, nothing in this world is perfect. Some things will please others and piss others as well.

That being said, I would like to share with you my "concerns" about the "Worldless" system that they plan to implement.

In FF11, we all knew how it worked. Sure, there was drama, but we knew who was good, who was bad, etc etc. The community was close and well it was what it was.

In WoW with the dungeon finder, it became much faster and easier to do the dungeons, howerver this brought some inconveniences that I personally dont like such as:

1. The is a no sense of community since you just que, you group you get it done and it is over. This most of the time prompts to people in that group not being patient, leaving after 1 or 2 wipes and even people just getting and item that they want and leaving.

2. You dont get time to enjoy or to "plan" since you dont know who you will endup with, you end up doing just the necessary bosses in order to finish the dungeon.

On the other side in FF11 sometimes you and to just idle there in Jeuno or Whitegate for hours just to find either a party or to be able to do something.

I really hope that SE can deliver something in-between. I really liked the tight community that 11 gave us, and I dont like the way WoW has been evolving.

What are you opinion or comments on this guys?

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it seems like a real good idea for people who can make use of it.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

holy necro thread batman!

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ive gotta start looking at the dates before i post...

I like the replys attacking the "it hurts the community" comments. Because the counter arguments seem to be "it saves time, no waiting for pts for hours".

Then i'm for adding an rmt auction house as well. For the people that don't like to wait, you can buy any and all gear in the game instantly via paypal. Dont want to put in the time to exp a job? No problem, paypal can buy you that too.

Before you shun me for typing this and lol @ it. YOU don't have to use it, so who cares right?

You want stuff instantly with little effort/time put in, there you go.

They need to start locking threads that are a couple months old.

6 month necro post isn't quite a record, but I bet it's close.

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Originally Posted by Aldwin

I like the replys attacking the "it hurts the community" comments. Because the counter arguments seem to be "it saves time, no waiting for pts for hours".

Then i'm for adding an rmt auction house as well. For the people that don't like to wait, you can buy any and all gear in the game instantly via paypal. Dont want to put in the time to exp a job? No problem, paypal can buy you that too.

Before you shun me for typing this and lol @ it. YOU don't have to use it, so who cares right?

You want stuff instantly with little effort/time put in, there you go.

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Go, Straw man, go!

There have been plenty of ideas to counteract the "it hurts the community" idea.

1) You can only queue for an event at the entrance to said event. That way you still have to traverse an open world to get to the event.

2) In the content finder, have a cross-server invite system so that it's possible to build a group and reconnect with preferred players. Thus also allowing to avoid players with bad attitudes.

3) Convenience is not the same as "zomg let's just make a free gear button." Making it easier for people to group together is not making the entire game easier.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

People need to stop coming up with strawman arguments about this stuff.

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Oh the irony of you saying this.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

...or use a magiteck device to look for players.

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YESSS this, so this. The Adventurer's Guild has gone through great lengths to steal us a copy of the Empire's Content Finder device. "Many Bothans died to bring us this information..." :) Now if we can only bring them a repaired transistor, they can give us our very own!

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

You do realize that you will teleport to the crystal and from there walk a big maximum of 5min. Is that 5min worth the 1h wait to find a group? Besides, when it is your 20th time doing the dungeon, would you still care about doing that 5min walk and seeing the same stuff over and over? When you party with your LS you can walk all you want together, nothing will force you to teleport anywhere.

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No dude you missed the point I was trying to convey. I don't care so much about the convenience of the system, whether or not I have to walk, etc. I care about the system fitting logically within the game world!

I will place what I said in another thread here:

I honestly do not get it.. How is Easy to get a party for said content "bad"? I mean what if this "content finder" just places you into a group of 8 people and then you just go there like you normally would, and not be plopped there? Of course people are going to use it, because its easier to do that, rather than to search for people. But there also something that people fail to see:

-For Harder content, people aren't going just "Get random people and wing it" they will use the PC search to search within there server, or have their own Linkshell to tackle the hader content down. That much is fact.
-For Exp, the only way to get Via Content finder is through dungeon content ( which we all know is pointless, but hey some people will use it for that as well, but its not the most Optimal way of getting exp.)
-For Exp parties, People will do what they would normally do "Use PC search to find people within their server to exp all around Eorzea.
-Frontlines (PvP) is Non-Instanced ( They are making it in a way that enemies won't interfere with non-participating players, so Content finder will most likely won't be used for this)

The only thing Content finder will be used for honestly is for the High-end content (sometimes). I say sometimes because some content.. you just can't do it with random members, so you have to do it within your home server, where you know everyone and what they do, to really get any of that accomplished.

Content Finder will only really be used if:

-Content is Easy enough to tackle down Via Random people
-If People dont have enough time to looking for "awesome people" and just want to get in a quick match before doing there real life duties or have other things planned.
-People that are impatient to find people on their Server, so they resort to content finder
-If it takes to long to finder people Via PC Search to do Content that's easy enough to tackle down with random people they will use it.

I been thinking about this all this morning while over my aunts house Drinking Coffee and randomly talking about it, I got her laughing a lot :P, All of what I said was me thinking for a couple of hours trying to find pros and cons.. but really there's isn't any cons.. You have to realize that there is going to be a lot of potential players of all types, not everyone is going to use content finder. Some people will use it some people won't, but its only made for Dungeons/Primals. If we all start out at lvl 1, we will be exploring the world as normal, because Content finder is made for.. well content! Exping isn't really content.. its just leveling up from point A to point B that's it.

In Conclusion, Content finder won't disrupt the balance of the community that some people say, because it's only ment for Easy/medium hard content (If people choose to use it for that). However, the harder content, I do not foresee people using the Content finder to get Random people to do hard content, unless they just want to kill time.

These are my thoughts for today on Content Finder!

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Content finder to allow input of information such as class, job, and level, to find other players across all
worlds for groups for dungeons, instanced raids, primal battles, etc.

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Originally Posted by Aldwin

You want stuff instantly with little effort/time put in, there you go.

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I doubt anyone is asking for stuff instantly with little effort. And I don't even see how waiting for party is considered effort.

The effort and time spent should be PLAYING and not waiting.

Now tell me, which player puts more effort within the 2 hour of playtime?

Player A: Log in > Do *Nothing* for 1 hour while waiting for party to fill > Run a dungeon 1 hour > Log Out - Total playtime 2 Hours.

Player B: Log in> Use content finder join party in 10 minutes > Run dungeon for 1:50 hours > Log out - Total playtime 2 Hours.

you need content to use content finder, let put the horse in front of the cart first SE.....

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Originally Posted by Razzle

I doubt anyone is asking for stuff instantly with little effort. And I don't even see how waiting for party is considered effort.

The effort and time spent should be PLAYING and not waiting.

Now tell me, which player puts more effort within the 2 hour of playtime?

Player A: Log in > Do *Nothing* for 1 hour while waiting for party to fill > Run a dungeon 1 hour > Log Out - Total playtime 2 Hours.

Player B: Log in> Use content finder join party in 10 minutes > Run dungeon for 1:50 hours > Log out - Total playtime 2 Hours.

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Player C, who is a form of player A but has spent time making relationships on his realm with people over time, even years. This same relationship that he uses to form parties with people he has done so before.

Player B in your scenario, just expierenced the lobby effect.

I'm not completely against DF. I am just trying to point out that while it does have some advantages, I believe it has disadvantages too. I hope the people who are for and against it take both sides into consideration, and I hope the devs do as well.

I can tell you from my own experience, and this is a fact. I met many friends partying with people in xi. Some exp parties, quest/mission parties and sometimes just helping out a friends ls who maybe short on a job I have leveled. And in my experience in wow, with which I am at this moment playing, I have not made a single friend using dungeon finder, and I rarely see people on my realm shouting for members (rarely being less than 1 time a month).

The people in raid finder, well there is usually a "bad apple" or two. Yes that is going to happen anywhere, but I have also seen many groups kick people for things like, low dps, low healing, saying something someone else didn't like. Now, if this was on my realm, and these were people I know, I doubt I would be willing to waste their time, and make them feel like crap, just to kick them and get a dps with better gear.

This whole discussion, and pretty much every discussion on the forums, are about peoples opinions. And my opinion ( and I think many others ) comes from my experience of seeing both sides of an example of how things can turn out. My experience is, xi vs wow.

Yes I can see many good reasons to add DF, but instead of blindly being all gun ho for it, I am trying to point out the many bad sides as well.

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Originally Posted by Aldwin

Player C, who is a form of player A but has spent time making relationships on his realm with people over time, even years. This same relationship that he uses to form parties with people he has done so before.

Player B in your scenario, just expierenced the lobby effect.

I'm not completely against DF. I am just trying to point out that while it does have some advantages, I believe it has disadvantages too. I hope the people who are for and against it take both sides into consideration, and I hope the devs do as well.

I can tell you from my own experience, and this is a fact. I met many friends partying with people in xi. Some exp parties, quest/mission parties and sometimes just helping out a friends ls who maybe short on a job I have leveled. And in my experience in wow, with which I am at this moment playing, I have not made a single friend using dungeon finder, and I rarely see people on my realm shouting for members (rarely being less than 1 time a month).

The people in raid finder, well there is usually a "bad apple" or two. Yes that is going to happen anywhere, but I have also seen many groups kick people for things like, low dps, low healing, saying something someone else didn't like. Now, if this was on my realm, and these were people I know, I doubt I would be willing to waste their time, and make them feel like crap, just to kick them and get a dps with better gear.

This whole discussion, and pretty much every discussion on the forums, are about peoples opinions. And my opinion ( and I think many others ) comes from my experience of seeing both sides of an example of how things can turn out. My experience is, xi vs wow.

Yes I can see many good reasons to add DF, but instead of blindly being all gun ho for it, I am trying to point out the many bad sides as well.

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But there also something that people fail to see:

-For Harder content, people aren't going just "Get random people and wing it" they will use the PC search to search within there server, or have their own Linkshell to tackle the hader content down. That much is fact.
-For Exp, the only way to get Via Content finder is through dungeon content ( which we all know is pointless, but hey some people will use it for that as well, but its not the most Optimal way of getting exp.)
-For Exp parties, People will do what they would normally do "Use PC search to find people within their server to exp all around Eorzea.
-Frontlines (PvP) is Non-Instanced ( They are making it in a way that enemies won't interfere with non-participating players, so Content finder will most likely won't be used for this)
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Content Finder will only really be used if:

-Content is Easy enough to tackle down Via Random people
-If People dont have enough time to looking for "awesome people" and just want to get in a quick match before doing there real life duties or have other things planned.
-People that are impatient to find people on their Server, so they resort to content finder
-If it takes to long to finder people Via PC Search to do Content that's easy enough to tackle down with random people they will use it.

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Originally Posted by CatchaFire420

you need content to use content finder, let put the horse in front of the cart first SE.....

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Bingo.

10char

For me it's simple, if i join a group I don't like, then jump to a new group that works with your play style more. Don't need to fear waiting for another group since you can just auto find one again.

To reply to my own post. I remember a long time ago in xi I had an exp party. Back then, you had a tank, healer, rdm blm and usually 2 random DD. Our tank, a nin , wasn't doing so great. He was trying, he had bad gear, he was asking for help in the party. A member of my group laughed, called him a nub, and said lets kick him and find a good player. The party leader kicked him. I also left the party, telling them all how rude I thought they were, and adding them to my blist so I hope never to party with them again.

I personally believe you would see more behavior like this in DF, and less people standing up to it.

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Originally Posted by Aldwin

To reply to my own post. I remember a long time ago in xi I had an exp party. Back then, you had a tank, healer, rdm blm and usually 2 random DD. Our tank, a nin , wasn't doing so great. He was trying, he had bad gear, he was asking for help in the party. A member of my group laughed, called him a nub, and said lets kick him and find a good player. The party leader kicked him. I also left the party, telling them all how rude I thought they were, and adding them to my blist so I hope never to party with them again.

I personally believe you would see more behavior like this in DF, and less people standing up to it.

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Which in over time, half the people won't use it as much any more considering the Behavior of some people.

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Originally Posted by Nikita

Love it, happy to see they are adding it. It is a feature especially convenient to those who have little time and it isn't forced on anyone. I hope they add a feature where you can form groups with friends from other servers, too. :D

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It is forced on everyone.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

It is forced on everyone.

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No its not, Refer to long post here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ts-the-problem

For some of you who haven't experience dungeon finder or raid finder (again, the wow version), I really should take some screenshots of some of the things said. Especially in raid finder. Many times i've seen someone like, a tank, probably his first time doing the dungeon, and not knowing exactly what to do on a boss. Make a mistake, sometimes even small. Raidfinder Spine fight. Tank doesn't move the mob to collect bloods. Instead of people saying "hey, you need to collect bloods and when he reaches 9 stacks, move him up to the spine". Instead you see things like "omfg this dumbshit tank , i bet your mom is a whore, dumbass nub". Anyone can say things like this, even server built groups. But I believe people will say/do things when they have no relationship towards other people, that they normally wouldn't say/do. You wouldn't tell a new tank in your ls something like that (if you did, it would be clear you were joking i'm sure).

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Originally Posted by Krausus

IMO SE's job is to make it easier to find groups and it is your job to build relationships. Don't blame SE because you dont want to put forth the effort to make friends.

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I love this quote THIS much! XD Take responsibility for your own community don't blame it on mechanics. And for some reason I find the nay sayers more anti social then those for this, they seem to have less tolerance for people who do not play or think as they do, who make make mistakes or have attitude... Personally that's all part of the experience.

As for killing off making friends I've never seen random lugging do this, it's all about your own attitude and approach. Set the example and take the initiate if you don't like how your groups are going.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

-For Exp, the only way to get Via Content finder is through dungeon content ( which we all know is pointless, but hey some people will use it for that as well, but its not the most Optimal way of getting exp.)

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I don't agree with this at all, it really depends on how SE plan for this.

If they push it as the main way of XPing in 2.0, they could add level sync and level caps for instances, being able to sign up to a fast XP party would be much better IMO than what we have right now.

For example doing Toto-rak for XP whilst farming items to either use or give in for seal is killing a lot of birds with 1 stone. (obviously they need to remove the crappy timer so that people can take their time and XP the whole dungeon)

I am hoping they will make specific dungeon content for XPing similar to MMM in FF11.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I don't agree with this at all, it really depends on how SE plan for this.

If they push it as the main way of XPing in 2.0, they could add level sync and level caps for instances, being able to sign up a fast XP party would be much better IMO than what we have right now.

For example doing Tot-rak for XP whilst farming items to either use or give it for seal is killing a lot of birds with 1 stone.

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Dungeons aren't the most optimal way of Exping, its "good" yes, but it will take you forever to level up that way, and leveling up around the World is a lot more pleasurable for most people, then staying isolated in 1 area being bored in 1 area just hack and slashing. Especially, when the exp rate will be Dumbed down by alot

Im going to laugh when this content finder is the equivalent to Auto-Party in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Dungeons aren't the most optimal way of Exping, its "good" yes, but it will take you forever to level up that way, and leveling up around the World is a lot more pleasurable for most people, then staying isolated in 1 area being bored in 1 area just hack and slashing. Especially, when the exp rate will be Dumbed down by alot

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How do you know this, have you XP'd in a dungeon whilst all at the same level before, what makes dungeon XP any different ?, they are basically the same monsters, XP is based on level after all.

Like I say SE could very well make dungeons with the purpose of Xping and I would support it fully, if they release new classes of course :P

I see no difference hacking and slashing in a dungeon (which could be randomly generated as I said, including monster), or going to the same camp for X amount of levels to grind on the same mobs.

Do you know what MMM is btw ?

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

Im going to laugh when this content finder is the equivalent to Auto-Party in FFXI.

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I will probably laugh as well as I uninstall the game and unsubscribe :D

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Which in over time, half the people won't use it as much any more considering the Behavior of some people.

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IF people are not going to use it(like the goobuu) why put it in there in the first place -.-

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Originally Posted by Cendres

I love this quote THIS much! XD Take responsibility for your own community don't blame it on mechanics. And for some reason I find the nay sayers more anti social then those for this, they seem to have less tolerance for people who do not play or think as they do, who make make mistakes or have attitude... Personally that's all part of the experience.

As for killing off making friends I've never seen random lugging do this, it's all about your own attitude and approach. Set the example and take the initiate if you don't like how your groups are going.

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If anything it gives more reason NOT to talk to people.....

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

Im going to laugh when this content finder is the equivalent to Auto-Party in FFXI.

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I know I'll be right there saying I told you so, in fact I will make a thread about it!

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I agree with you, but as someone said either in this thread or many of the others ones like it (grumbles), it's possible SE will make us traverse to the dungeon and queue just the same. (of course this is being added as a means of convenience so that may not happen)

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The Dungeons are right next to aethers current. We port to dungeons now.

Anyways my last word on this. Content Finder is coming.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

How do you know this, have you XP'd in a dungeon whilst all at the same level before, what makes dungeon XP any different ?, they are basically the same monsters, XP is based on level after all.

Like I say SE could very well make dungeons with the purpose of Xping and I would support it fully, if they release new classes of course :P

I see no difference hacking and slashing in a dungeon (which could be randomly generated as I said, including monster), or going to the same camp for X amount of levels to grind on the same mobs.

Do you know what MMM is btw ?

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If you are talking about instanced dungeons it isnt the level that is the issue its the amount and the no respawn its much more efficient to xp farm at camps though im sure you know this. That could change though with content finder as they may want to promote XPing in dungeons which I find no issues with. The people that truly want to have a strong community will while those that want it but dont want to put forth any effort will continue to blame SE for it.

Like I've said before, my only real concern isn't the mechanic itself or the effect on the community. While there are issues there I am concerned how designing around this mechanic will effect the development direction of the game.

I can "Not use it" all I want but if everything in the game is designed around it (instanced) I don't have much choice if I want to play the game do I?

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Originally Posted by Rokien

IF people are not going to use it(like the goobuu) why put it in there in the first place -.-

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people do use the gobbue and they seem to always want to use them on narrow walks ways next to me D=

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Originally Posted by Jinko

How do you know this, have you XP'd in a dungeon whilst all at the same level before, what makes dungeon XP any different ?, they are basically the same monsters, XP is based on level after all.

Like I say SE could very well make dungeons with the purpose of Xping and I would support it fully, if they release new classes of course :P

I see no difference hacking and slashing in a dungeon (which could be randomly generated as I said, including monster), or going to the same camp for X amount of levels to grind on the same mobs.

Do you know what MMM is btw ?

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1) Yes I have leveled in Dungeons and its quite slow Vs Open World leveling + no wait time after you completed Dungeon
2) Yes there is no Difference in Hack and slash in Dungeon or in Open World, however, your always contently doing something on the go Open world leveling once you have set camp
3) It doesn't seem likely they are doing this because of this: The Timer in which you have to wait till you go inside the Dungeon and B, Exp will be Dumbed down . Those two alone doesn't want me to Exping in a Dungeon
4) There is more mobs in open world then in a Dungeon in which in Open world they always repop and fast, Dungeons don't repop
5) If your party dies, you have to travel all that way to get to where you were at (without Chocobo mind you)

I have not played MMM in FFXI, but I have been in Several Dungeons to know this. Open world Dungeons are fine because Mobs will always repop. Instanced dungeons are not. It seems like all Dungeons will be Instanced.

I'm just saying things from my experience and how I see things, this doesn't validate any of this to be fact.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

IF people are not going to use it(like the goobuu) why put it in there in the first place -.-

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SE added the original party finder - people didn't use it.
SE added the new search feature - people barely use it.

There is a pattern forming here and I hope that Content finder doesn't end up the same, of course most of the problem with the previous features were they weren't intuitive or demanded a players attention so they went unnoticed.

3rd times the charm .. as they say :D

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I can "Not use it" all I want but if everything in the game is designed around it (instanced) I don't have much choice if I want to play the game do I?

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Pretty much, but then you have to re-evaluate whether it is worth playing a game you don't enjoy any longer.

Fact is as others have said content finder is coming, you have to accept that and make a decision.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Fact is as others have said content finder is coming, you have to accept that and make a decision.

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Thanks for the tip but I'll continue to fight tooth and nail for the type of game I want. If content finder ends up making the game less enjoyable for me I will pack my bags and leave but until that time...

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Like I've said before, my only real concern isn't the mechanic itself or the effect on the community. While there are issues there I am concerned how designing around this mechanic will effect the development direction of the game.

I can "Not use it" all I want but if everything in the game is designed around it (instanced) I don't have much choice if I want to play the game do I?

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Instanced doesn't mean you have to use the content finder though. You can get a group of people you know or even randoms on your own server and go do it. The only time you would be forced to use it is if you had to use the content finder to enter said instance. There is nothing to suggest that this will be the case.