Never Make Your Players Have to "Find the Fun"

Why will someone that the devs say "This is fun. Do it!" instead of "Here are some contents. Look what give you the most fun." ?

Finding the fun yourself is part of the fun.

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Originally Posted by hobostew

Given the OPs complaint and the general support it's getting I'm pretty sure most of these people wouldn't touch MMOs with a ten foot pole if it ever went back to its niche roots. MMOs of old were even grindier(in fact the grind was 90% of the "compelling" gameplay) and you could do almost nothing without a group.

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I have to agree with this. I don't think most people nowadays would want to wait 24-72 hours for a mob to spawn, which had a low drop rate for its treasure, and could only be claimed by one group.

People need to accept that grinds are part of the MMO genre. However, that doesn't mean that all grinds are equally entertaining.

I think that the biggest problem I am having right now is that when I log on there is nothing I can just get into and have fun with. Maybe it is because I have been playing a lot of single player games recently and Blade and Soul due to the drought of things to do and am getting used to the instant gratification of fun that comes with that. Pop in a disc and I am having fun and getting into something from the moment I turn on the console. It didn't always used to be this way.

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Originally Posted by hobostew

Given the OPs complaint and the general support it's getting I'm pretty sure most of these people wouldn't touch MMOs with a ten foot pole if it ever went back to its niche roots. MMOs of old were even grindier(in fact the grind was 90% of the "compelling" gameplay) and you could do almost nothing without a group.

Mind you I'd argue that since the audience of MMOs of old was so small that it couldn't have been that compelling to the vast majority of people. They were niche games for a reason.

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I don't play a lot of MMOs they really not my style the last one I played was also by SE which was XI and compared to XIV, XI was way more of a grind then XIV will ever be so nothing in XIV really bothers me. Actually wish kind of had more elements from XI but from the posts in this thread such as OP would be creating even more complaints then.

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Originally Posted by hobostew

Given the OPs complaint and the general support it's getting I'm pretty sure most of these people wouldn't touch MMOs with a ten foot pole if it ever went back to its niche roots. MMOs of old were even grindier(in fact the grind was 90% of the "compelling" gameplay) and you could do almost nothing without a group.

Mind you I'd argue that since the audience of MMOs of old was so small that it couldn't have been that compelling to the vast majority of people. They were niche games for a reason.

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You actually aren't understanding my complaint. I didn't complain about grinding at all. I complained about not being able to grind whenever I want because of lockouts and time gates. I have no problem with grinding. I've done 2 Zetas and finished my i210 relic last week. I grinded for every Lucis tool when they were current, have almost all my jobs at max level, and have done every quest (minus a few job quests from the non-max level jobs), including the fishing quests.

As for finding groups inconvenient, you're only half correct, because my complaint isn't so much that finding groups is inconvenient it's that time gates make finding groups MORE inconvenient than need be. For example, will people who have cleared A1S this week run it again this week? Will people who have their loot/farthing from Void Ark run that again this week? NO. SE is actively making it harder for people to find groups for content by removing players from the pool of people we could group with.

Your basic argument is the same argument that gets thrown about all the time on these forums whenever someone doesn't like something - "If you don't like one (or a few) particular things in this game then this game or this whole genre is not for you."

Now that I've broken this argument down to it's essence, I hope you can see why it's wrong; I love FFXIV and I love MMOs. I think this game could be better and, in fact, I need for it to be better, because there are many other compelling ways to spend one's time. When I quit playing, it won't necessarily be because I hate this game or this genre, it will most likely be that there are other games or activities that I find MORE enjoyable. If I had infinite money and infinite time, I wouldn't ask SE to change a thing.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

I don't play a lot of MMOs they really not my style the last one I played was also by SE which was XI and compared to XIV, XI was way more of a grind then XIV will ever be so nothing in XIV really bothers me. Actually wish kind of had more elements from XI but from the posts in this thread such as OP would be creating even more complaints then.

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Actually, I liked FFXI better than FFXIV, because grinds aren't my issue, as I stated above. There are reasons I play FFXIV over FFXI though - FFXIV is prettier, more populated, I got to start from the beginning (of ARR at least), and crafting is more fun (to name just a few reasons). The main thing I don't like is that I can't do the things I want to do as often as I want to do them. I'd love to grind until one job is BiS, then tackle the next job, etc. Instead, the game tells me "nope, you are done for the day or week." Sure, there are plenty of other things to do but I'm not always in the mood to do those things. I want more freedom in the game. Removing lockouts would not at all discourage me from playing because I couldn't grind enough to do everything I want to do before the next patch.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Also, I would suggest that you not get dismissive of folks that happen to have a different opinion than you and are enjoying the game, as their enjoyment is just as valid as your lack thereof.

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There are appropriate ways of voicing one's opinion. People who voice their opinion in rude or insulting ways will absolutely get dismissed. You're right that the opinion of others is valid but that also means that others have to treat my opinion as valid. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Personally I prefer time gates to RNG.
With time gates I can decide whether or not I want to bother hitting my cap for the week/day/whatever whereas with RNG my progress may be hindered by bad luck.

The only time based gates that really bother me are the ones for gathering nodes. I found them tolerable in ARR since they were only for max level crafting items for the most part. I hate that Heavensward has incorporated materials from time based nodes into leveling crafts.

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Originally Posted by Zadist

I think that the biggest problem I am having right now is that when I log on there is nothing I can just get into and have fun with. Maybe it is because I have been playing a lot of single player games recently and Blade and Soul due to the drought of things to do and am getting used to the instant gratification of fun that comes with that. Pop in a disc and I am having fun and getting into something from the moment I turn on the console. It didn't always used to be this way.

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I think you understand where I'm coming from. A lot of people are taking issue with my thread title "finding the fun" but from my experience on these forums it's because some people are very literal minded (or intentionally interpret things literally in order to be argumentative). Finding the fun is a term that came from D&D and I used it as a hook and to make a connection to FFXIV dev mindsets. A developer is basically the dungeon master so this is not a stretch. But a more appropriate title for this thread that might appease the literalists is "waiting for the fun."

It takes inordinate time to find a group for endgame content and a lot of this is because of endgame lockouts. I can't just log on and do my nodes because they only spawn at certain times. Etc. Etc. This game simply does not let players "jump into content" whenever they want. It's a major, major design flaw. This game is great don't get me wrong, but that has got to be changed moving forward (I'll add "in my opinion" just to please the literalists who cannot interpret this to be my opinion without my saying so).

I don't think grinds themselves are the main complaint, but the lack of variety when it comes to grinds. It doesn't make me happy knowing that 3.2 grinds are just going to be another 2 dungeons for expert roulette, a new tomestone with the usual 450 cap, and another part of Alexander. Variety is the spice of etc.

I'd be happy with just having tomes tied to class, rather than character, so we could choose to gear up multiple classes per lockout

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

This game simply does not let players "jump into content" whenever they want. It's a major, major design flaw.

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But this is objectively untrue. The whole existence of the Duty Finder is to allow players to "jump into content" whenever they want. Yes, some content rewards are gated by time and in the world, some things have respawn timers, but the largest majority of the game's content is meant to be consumed whenever you want.

No, you can't farm Esoterics until your eyes bleed, but the alternative is a lot more RNG (or massively increased costs for items that are currency-based). In order to maintain challenge for raid-difficulty content), the developers need to have some ability to anticipate the power level of the player characters. If we could gear up as rapidly as we want to, the developers would need to balance that content essentially always assuming maximum-level gear, which would create a lot of problems progression-wise for players that can't play twelve hours a day, making the game far more difficult to balance.

Other content that has spawn timers, like Hunts and FATEs, are in party designed that way to help break monotony so that grinding aspects don't become too repetitive.

And quite frankly, I like that the game has things that don't always involve jumping right into content because the game's GCD-based combat system makes it rather difficult to socialize with my friends when I'm actually engaged in combat. The periods of downtime are welcome because they help keep the "massively multiplayer" part of the game alive.

I do think the developers made mistakes in adding another aspect to the game that is time gated (the whole Crafting/Gatherer Red Scrip system), but in general, if I wanted to have total control over my content consumption, I'd play a console RPG, personally.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

I'd be happy with just having tomes tied to class, rather than character, so we could choose to gear up multiple classes per lockout

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I would like to see them do this eventually, but it would need to be done per role rather than per class, unless they move to making all gear job-specific (which, at least at this point, doesn't seem likely).

So OP you want all time gates gone, SE most likely increase the grind then, that body piece on tome lockout that cost 825 tomes remove the lock out now cost 10,000 tomes while still getting no more then 100 tomes at most per run. Want no cap on scrips ok instead of 5 favors for 1 scrip now 5 favors for 100 scrips. The current day gamer would be even more upset with that type of set up though I think so the current system works for most people that play the game.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

But this is objectively untrue. The whole existence of the Duty Finder is to allow players to "jump into content" whenever they want.

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Duty Finder let's you queue for content whenever you want, not play the content whenever you want. That relies on being matched with a group. Loot restrictions remove players from the pool of people you could be matched with. And incentives determine whether players are willing to add themselves to the pool of possible players to be matched with. SE could improve matching by removing restrictions and/or adding incentives.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

So OP you want all time gates gone, SE most likely increase the grind then, that body piece on tome lockout that cost 825 tomes remove the lock out now cost 10,000 tomes while still getting no more then 100 tomes at most per run. Want no cap on scrips ok instead of 5 favors for 1 scrip now 5 favors for 100 scrips. The current day gamer would be even more upset with that type of set up though I think so the current system works for most people that play the game.

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This is a false dichotomy. You're presenting it as if there are only 2 systems - lockouts or ridiculous grinds. I'm sure there is a middle ground, the body piece you mention costing 1600 tomes instead of 10k.

My argument is that the game should not be based around the players that can and will grind 20 hours per day. Sure, there will be those players and they will "get ahead" of other players in a way they can't now, with lockouts, but they will be a minority of players. I think those who want to preserve the lockout system mostly want to preserve the small gap that exists between players' ilevel (they can be just a few ilevel different from someone who is actually clearing the raids). But what they don't realize is that gameplay will improve in almost every way with lockouts removed. For example, there will be more people doing more content which equals faster group matching and formation.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

Duty Finder let's you queue for content whenever you want, not play the content whenever you want. That relies on being matched with a group. Loot restrictions remove players from the pool of people you could be matched with. And incentives determine whether players are willing to add themselves to the pool of possible players to be matched with. SE could improve matching by removing restrictions and/or adding incentives.

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In all probability, the impact that having no lockouts would have on queue times would be fairly small, as queue times are far more impacted by data center populations and overall role distributions than they are by the fact that people can only get 450 Esoterics per week. The weekly tome lockout was originally 300 per week, and queue times didn't lessen by any noticable margins when they increased it to 450, nor did they noticeably improve when the cap was 900 tomes of Poetics toward the end of ARR.

The reason for this is largely that the population of players who would farm content for tomes/etc beyond the lockout to any particular degree is a pretty small subset of the overall population. There are probably more players who already don't cap tomestones every week than there are players who would farm 1000 or 2000 of them a week simply because the majority of the playerbase doesn't play that much.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

But what they don't realize is that gameplay will improve in almost every way with lockouts removed.

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This isn't necessarily true. Even with content locks as they currently are, the latter half of every raid cycle already sees a drop off in player engagement, lengthening queue times for everyone. If content were all lockout-free, more players would be finished with the available content sooner, and thus engagement would taper off earlier in a raid tier's life cycle, which would increase increase matchmaking times except in the early stages of a raid tier. You can see this pretty clearly with content where we can farm to our hearts content: namely Hunts and EX Primals, which have massive engagement early on in their cycle of relevancy and largely die out not long after that.

The only way to get around that would be more rapid production of content, something we're not likely to see anytime in the near future since the development team for the game is already strapped for both manpower and time.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

In all probability, the impact that having no lockouts would have on queue times would be fairly small, as queue times are far more impacted by data center populations and overall role distributions than they are by the fact that people can only get 450 Esoterics per week. The weekly tome lockout was originally 300 per week, and queue times didn't lessen by any noticable margins when they increased it to 450, nor did they noticeably improve when the cap was 900 tomes of Poetics toward the end of ARR.

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You're judging the impact on 300 vs 450, which is only 2 ex roulettes. So obviously the impact will be small. When the limit is 450 vs. infinite, one would expect a MUCH bigger impact. Look at what happened when SE added this new relic quest - queue times for Alexander normal increased tenfold. We can't act like incentives for running content doesn't make a big difference as outside of helping the occasional person people aren't running the content for any other reason.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

This is a false dichotomy. You're presenting it as if there are only 2 systems - lockouts or ridiculous grinds. I'm sure there is a middle ground, the body piece you mention costing 1600 tomes instead of 10k.

My argument is that the game should not be based around the players that can and will grind 20 hours per day. Sure, there will be those players and they will "get ahead" of other players in a way they can't now, with lockouts, but they will be a minority of players. I think those who want to preserve the lockout system mostly want to preserve the small gap that exists between players' ilevel (they can be just a few ilevel different from someone who is actually clearing the raids). But what they don't realize is that gameplay will improve in almost every way with lockouts removed. For example, there will be more people doing more content which equals faster group matching and formation.

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What are you talking about? Only minority of players would grind everything out? The people that wouldn't grind everything out would be the minority not the other way around. I don't know about your server but least on Balmung there be ton of people that would just grind all day long.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

You're judging the impact on 300 vs 450, which is only 2 ex roulettes. So obviously the impact will be small. When the limit is 450 vs. infinite, one would expect a MUCH bigger impact. Look at what happened when SE added this new relic quest - queue times for Alexander normal increased tenfold. We can't act like incentives for running content doesn't make a big difference as outside of helping the occasional person people aren't running the content for any other reason.

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Back when the tome cap was 300 and increased to 450, you could only get at most, 40 tomestones per run (and more typically, 30, since WP was preferred to AK), which is a difference of 4-5 runs, not 2. Even doubling the tome cap didn't noticeably impact queue times, though—it's unlikely that making it infinite would do so either. And even if it did, it would only temporarily increase queue times, because, as I mentioned later, players who got all the tomes they need would eventually stop doing the content entirely, as they already do for Hunts, the unlocked tomestone, and EX Primals once they've gotten what they need.

It's not that removing lockouts wouldn't have any impact, it's that the impact would largely get lost because lockouts are one of the smallest contributing factors to queue time length, with role distribution, player population, and time of day having far greater effects.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

What are you talking about? Only minority of players would grind everything out? The people that wouldn't grind everything out would be the minority not the other way around. I don't know about your server but least on Balmung there be ton of people that would just grind all day long.

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Only a minority of players would grind everything out within a short timeframe. Example: Relic. The average player working on relic will get a relic just before 3.2 comes out. This is perfect pacing - players aren't getting overwhelmed, they're not falling behind. From a financial standpoint, they're staying subbed. But some people had the new relics in just a few days. And from a financial standpoint, this is okay too, as those players are also staying subbed because there are other things that they want to do.

I'm not going to go back and forth a ton more about this as my time is actually important to me but I would invite you to please read the fixes listed in my original post. Fixes like, for example, having more fun stuff to do while waiting for queues or PF to fill. If you can honestly say these fixes are unreasonable, I don't know how to respond to you.

Nothing in my original post mentioned removing gates. In fact, I stated that my problem is that gates have gotten way out of hand to include much more than tomes. Just about every game system added since the start of ARR has had a time gate attached. You have to wait hours to dye or breed your chocobo, for example. You cannot challenge Triple Triad NPCs whenever you want. Scrips are on 2 different timers - the weekly cap of how much you can get AND having to wait for nodes to spawn.

I feel like I'm in a straight jacket juggling all these timers. Suppose I want to do everything in the game, what would my play routine look like?

- if it's 15 min past or before the real life hour, go to Gold Saucer for GATES
- if it's 8:00ish Eorzea time, go start the red/blue scrip node train that ends at roughly 2pm
- queue for something during or in between that
- try to fit in triple triad challenges in sometime in between that (oh wait, my Idle Imperial timer conflicts with my node timer - I can't do both until/unless I cap scrips)

I mean I could go on but I won't. This thread is not about removing content lockouts (even though I would personally jump for joy), it's about reconsidering time restrictions to every new thing that was added. They even added a cooldown timer to Diadem because Yoshi wanted to "give people a break." It wasn't even to restrict loot access but to prevent people from burning out on the content. Well, if I want to run content until my eyes bleed, that's my prerogative. Yoshi P isn't my daddy and it's time for him to quit acting like it.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

The only time based gates that really bother me are the ones for gathering nodes. I found them tolerable in ARR since they were only for max level crafting items for the most part. I hate that Heavensward has incorporated materials from time based nodes into leveling crafts.

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You can buy most of them from NPCs as NQ mats, if you mean the lv51-59 timed mats

A friend of mine summed up the problem after becoming thoroughly disgusted with the many of the end-game players he was encountering in-game. Paraphrasing, he said that some people need to just stop and remember how to enjoy a game, because they have forgotten how. Sadly, few are willing to even consider that simple advice.

An MMORPG is a game that sets a feast before it's players, FFXIV is no exception to that. You serve yourself, you have choice of what to do for enjoyment, it's not a matter of having to find the fun, it's more picking and choosing from what is available around you.

The entire point of an MMORPG with a persistent world is to explore it, and discover things. Along the way there are numerous side tracks you can go down, be it FATE, beast tribe quests, side quests, glamor, alternate classes and jobs, housing, crafting, gathering, helping others, taking awesome pictures, etc... the fun is right there, just open your eyes when you are out in the world.

On the other hand, if you spend your time idling in the ironically named Idyllshire, and 'port from point to point when you do travel, you are depriving yourself of the very thing that exists for you to enjoy.

There is also a great deal of truth to the idea that what you get out of a game depends on what you put in to it. If you approach a game expecting not enough content, content that is just boring, obsolete or pointless, and/or content being a job-like grind; then that is precisely what you will find because that is in effect what you are looking for.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I feel like I'm in a straight jacket juggling all these timers. Suppose I want to do everything in the game, what would my play routine look like?

- if it's 15 min past or before the real life hour, go to Gold Saucer for GATES
- if it's 8:00ish Eorzea time, go start the red/blue scrip node train that ends at roughly 2pm
- queue for something during or in between that
- try to fit in triple triad challenges in sometime in between that (oh wait, my Idle Imperial timer conflicts with my node timer - I can't do both until/unless I cap scrips)

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Sounds more like a personal problem then a game problem, decide content you want to do and spend you time doing that instead of running around like crazy person trying to do it all at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Sounds more like a personal problem then a game problem, decide content you want to do and spend you time doing that instead of running around like crazy person trying to do it all at the same time.

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My personal problem becomes SE's game problem when I unsub because I don't find "running around like a crazy person" fun. Not that I at all do that tyvm. Let's say I find one thing I want to do, as some suggest. Ok, that's totally reasonable. Let's say that is farming Triple Triad cards. What am I doing in between NPC timers? Let's say I am only doing GATES. What am I doing in between timers? Let's say I am only doing Alexander Savage. What am I doing while I'm waiting for my group to fill?

It doesn't matter whether you do a single piece of content or some combination of content, timers restrict (unreasonably in my view) the ability to do the content you want to do when you want to do it. This is objective fact, not opinion, and it is completely inarguable by anyone w/ an ounce of sanity or intelligence. I understand timers as a way of slowing progress (understand, not agree with) but SE doesn't have to put a time restriction on every piece of content. Progress doesn't have to be slowed on everything.

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Originally Posted by Felis

You can buy most of them from NPCs as NQ mats, if you mean the lv51-59 timed mats

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Yeah I remember seeing the tea leaves on a vendor for 1000 each or so.
I much prefer gathering my own materials though.

I just wanted to make a couple suggestions/comments.

1. I am not saying make a specific Fate spawn. But a zone should never have less then 3 fates up. In theory completing every Fate would make yours spawn faster, maybe. Unless we end up with the response [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FKvJMLX.jpg[/IMG]

2. Why do we need timed nodes? Why could they not spread stuff better through out nodes adjusting gathering needed for an item. I am more ok with saying you need X amount of gathering then you need to be here for X time. Who hasn't went to a node then had an instance pop 3 mins before it spawns. Also they have enough items from 2.0 that was bought they could have spread into 50+ nodes with time gated items to have another full set. Adding a bit more variety. I do admit that this would probably require some more adjusting then a quick fix.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

This is a false dichotomy. You're presenting it as if there are only 2 systems - lockouts or ridiculous grinds. I'm sure there is a middle ground...

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What is the middle ground? Oh right you dont have any idea what that could be but still arogantly assert that it must be true despite not even being able to explain why you dont like it in the first place. Why are you trying to argue against something you admit you dont understand?

You're the one forcing yourself to abide by every lockout available. You're the one turing the game into a chore. You don't have to. Thats the point of themepark MMO's play them however you want to.

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Originally Posted by Kitano123

What is the middle ground? Oh right you dont have any idea what that could be but still arogantly assert that it must be true despite not even being able to explain why you dont like it in the first place. Why are you trying to argue against something you admit you dont understand?

You're the one forcing yourself to abide by every lockout available. You're the one turing the game into a chore. You don't have to. Thats the point of themepark MMO's play them however you want to.

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Your reading comprehension either sucks or you're trying to be deliberately misleading. I'm actually going with the latter since you cut off my suggestion by only quoting part of my statement. That feels pretty deliberate to me. I CLEARLY offered the middle ground - which is items costing more in tomes (specifically a body piece costing 1600 rather than 825 tomes). Point being items can cost more without being 100000000 tomes and we can have RNG without having .00000000001 drop rates. Everyone is acting like removing lockouts would send the game to some ridiculous, unplayable extreme.

For reference, here's my full statement:

This is a false dichotomy. You're presenting it as if there are only 2 systems - lockouts or ridiculous grinds. I'm sure there is a middle ground, the body piece you mention costing 1600 tomes instead of 10k.

So to say I didn't present a solution is just a lie.

Also, just a reminder but this thread isn't about removing lockouts on tomes and gear drops (although I would definitely be in favor of this change). It's about not going OVERBOARD with timers. Is there any reason we can't play Triple Triad NPCs whenever we want, for example? Everything in this game is coming with a time restriction attached and I'm just sick of it.

Don't you have friends to play with? Guildies? Static?

I only raid now and voice and voice chatting with my static alone everyday is enough fun for me to keep my sub going. What you say may have truth, but your opinion does fall into the minority. There are many people like me who enjoys the small things. I still got buds who continue to play the game when their main is still 50.
Trying to push your opinion onto the entire community as if it's the absolute truth is not the way to go.

Too bad there isn't any notorious monster's in FFXIV with special gear that people can sell or glamour.

My cousin used to tell me how fun it was to camp out versus other players to try and get these items to use or to sell and how competitive it was to try and claim it, he said also like rare items nobody would have for a while when they added a new NM.

I came to FFXI after they turned everything to rare/ex so nobody was really hunting them much, which lost its thrill of the hunt because he said RMT ruined it, though I don't think RMT could ruin it in FFXIV as long as they keep it in area's that they cannot reach like the heavensward area how its locked unless they beat something.

but yeah fates and all that can get a little worn out after a while.

I would like something else beside standing around or mining the whole time give me something I can hunt or keep track of worth doing.


Also I do get what the OP is saying just doing it but then again you still have to wait for stuff in other MMO's also, tossing party together is a wait, waiting for monsters to pop, also running to areas you need the quest, that's what MMO's are.

Though I do get what you are saying for some things like in FFXI you didn't have to wait for a tank to join if you were good at your job you just did it, no waiting needed or pop item or whatever you could solo to have fun more things to go after you didn't have to wait for it that I can understand.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

...and use RNG instead of time gates to slow progression...

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OMG. You pointed out the issues, however, above suggestion would be worse, I am pretty sure most players hate RNG here.

i.e The issue "Waiting for FATE" conuld be considered as RNG, this is one exmaple how SE implemented RNG ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

OMG. You pointed out the issues, however, above suggestion would be worse, I am pretty sure most players hate RNG here.

i.e The issue "Waiting for FATE" conuld be considered as RNG, this is one exmaple how SE implemented RNG ^^;

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RNGesus already hates me as bad as I hate him, would prefure less RNG if possible but never more.

RNG removes all amounts of skill from everything it touches.

In 1.x we were sitting next to the fire and did some RP while waiting... the players on entrances showed us if waiting was worth or not and we could form groups with those who were interested.
I am not saying 2.x changed that much, but mostly desynced the players. We had to wait for friends to catch up with story or even to get access to the dungeons, sometimes we needed to wait hours just for one questline to finish!
3.x clearly have focus on 12h/day players and it feels like you barely can keep up with one Job. After finishing some dailys you are already out of time and there were no "helping friends" or "Roleplay on fire" moments...
While in 2.x it felt like stairs: One dungeon unlocks the next one... 3.x feels like daily grinding without interaction, its more like working on a checklist and does not feel like gaming any more!

The Problem isn't the stairs design, but the rewards -> we having too many currencies, that is not normal...

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Originally Posted by PArcher

OK, how would you suggest they do that? Drops that have a 0.00000001% chance of dropping from a world boss? Requiring a stack of items that cost a thousand tomes each?

So many people say "this needs to change!" with no suggestions how to do so.

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I don't think it should be up to the community to fix a game - SE has developers, those developers should be able to come up with fun stuff to do.
It's about money, and fun isn't in the budget, only profit - fun costs to much time and money - better to spend that on big titles instead.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I feel like I'm in a straight jacket juggling all these timers. Suppose I want to do everything in the game, what would my play routine look like?

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If you want to do absolutely everything in the game you will have trouble, with or without timers. Which is why the vast majority of players don't even try to do everything - it is just too much work.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

In 1.x we were sitting next to the fire and did some RP while waiting... the players on entrances showed us if waiting was worth or not and we could form groups with those who were interested.

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It was faster to just shout for party in Ul'dah.
The majority who showed up at the entrances of the dungeons and primal fights where already in a party they formed in Ul'dah.

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Originally Posted by Felis

It was faster to just shout for party in Ul'dah.
The majority who showed up at the entrances of the dungeons and primal fights where already in a party they formed in Ul'dah.

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Depending when you compare, post 1.2 or not...

Edit:
Hydra as example was easier to go to entrance (same with hamlet defence), but most groups were searching both, one on entrance while an other was recruiting in uldah...

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

This game feels like a bloody chore to me, and that is why I haven't done anything worthwhile in game for quite a long time. But hey, I'm just one player. Take it for what you want.

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When the game feels like this, it is no longer a game for you. Take a break, either temporarily or permanently.

On one issue, the gating of things, if there was no gates on it then you would be here asking why there is nothing to do since you did it all and the devs can't keep up. I hate time gated material, but I understand it's need. It will either be time gated, or major grind (no relic is not a major grind. Check original Everquest hell levels and epic quests. Took my cousin something like 6 months to get his monk epic ... most of which was waiting for a single mob to spawn.)

The Time Gate Paradox - Forcing you to do the content while discouring you from doing it... too much.

All these gates just make it harder for the new players to catch up, while kicking you out of the content if you dare to change your main job.

Imagine that you would like to do savage on your job who is in the law gear. How long will you have to wait to have fun with the job in the savage? Long enough to change your job several times, as the alt jobs are the thing we do to avoid the boredom between the weekly lockouts.

Why can't we have soft caps instead of the hard caps?

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

When the game feels like this, it is no longer a game for you. Take a break, either temporarily or permanently.

On one issue, the gating of things, if there was no gates on it then you would be here asking why there is nothing to do since you did it all and the devs can't keep up. I hate time gated material, but I understand it's need. It will either be time gated, or major grind (no relic is not a major grind. Check original Everquest hell levels and epic quests. Took my cousin something like 6 months to get his monk epic ... most of which was waiting for a single mob to spawn.)

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Not everyone who complains about gates is a content locust that will do everything instantly without them. I have certainly had my share of not capping tomes and I also get annoyed at the fact that I cannot get them when I am interested in farming them as much as I want to.

And why is it that the thing that made MMO such a niche genre somehow seen as good because they "are not as bad" as they were previously? Things that make the game not as fun to play are not features.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Not everyone who complains about gates is a content locust that will do everything instantly without them. I have certainly had my share of not capping tomes and I also get annoyed at the fact that I cannot get them when I am interested in farming them as much as I want to.

And why is it that the thing that made MMO such a niche genre somehow seen as good because they "are not as bad" as they were previously? Things that make the game not as fun to play are not features.

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This is definitely annoying. I spent last month leveling an alt character on the Balmung and I had so much fun doing it that I totally neglected all the weekly caps on my main character. Now I am suffering the penalty for playing the game to have fun...

Funny story, I am also weekly capped on the both characters atm. The weekly limit is so low that not even two characters are able to fill the whole week. Maybe I should start the third one! /jk

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

That was the advice of a Dungeon's and Dragons DM's guide. And it's advice SE should take to heart. A typical game of FFXIV goes like this:

- Gameplay that is dictated by timers. It is time for a GATE, have to go do that. It is time for gathering nodes, have to go do that. Haven't capped esoteric tomes this week, have to go do that. Haven't gotten my Void Ark item this week, have to go do that. Haven't done my roulettes today, have to go do that. Have to check the plants. Have to enter my house so it doesn't get demolished. It's a chore list, NOT engaging gameplay.

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This I can somewhat agree upon. Tomes/Scripts are perhaps the most glaringly transparent and fundamentally boring system implemented to slow player progression. Granted, I know they do so partially to prevent people from grinding it all out in a few days/weeks and leaving new players behind, but what the devs do not seem to appreciate is hardcore players will simply find workarounds-- primarily in the form of alts. I am already starting to work on leveling up a few in preparation for Specialist crap. Red Scripts is especially infuriating as I approach my Crafting endgame. Instead of being rewarded for my hard work grinding, I'm essentially told, "this will take nine months regardless of what you do, your dedication or the time invested." That is not fun.

Worst of all, it accomplishes nothing. I'm only five months into playing this game and still have to wait the same allotted time players did come Heavensward. So how exactly did Red Scripts slow them down enough to allow new crafters to close the gap? Now I want to emphasis, I'm not faulting veterans, but merely the system. If I'm willing to grind for 10+ hours a day, I should be able to catch up. That's my choice. At least then I would have something to show for my effort, whereas now I just cap 450 scripts and sit on my hands for a week.

But I digress, since this, frankly, the only portion of your post I agree with.

Roulettes are a daily activity. You have a full 24 hours to complete them from whenever they reset. What exactly do you want changed? If you cannot be bothered to find the time to do them, well, that's on you, not the game.

As for housing:

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

Let me guess, you're part of the player base who doesn't have a house? It sure would be great if players who aren't using their houses would vacate so the players who want the houses could put them to some better use, right?

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In a word, yes. While I will not begrudge you the prerogative of how you use your house-- you bought it, do with it as you wish. Don't expect me to care when you whine about having to log in and walk inside it. Honestly, a complaint such as this pegs you as rather selfish. You are inconvenience for what, a minute every four five days? Get over it. With a limited supply, people have a right to be frustrated with players who scarily use their houses, yet cry foul if SE dares to say, "yo, use it or lose it."

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- Waiting for FATES. Whenever I have to wait for a FATE, I am NOT even PLAYING the game. I am doing rl stuff or playing a different game. While this isn't entirely bad from a time management perspective (a forced break), game developers shouldn't be encouraging their players to do something else other than play their game. What if someone finds a better game while they're waiting on a FATE. Then they're like, "Hmm, play this FUN game OR continue playing a game that forces me to stare at my screen doing nothing?"

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Fates generally respawn within a fifteen minute span, and there are multiple ones per zone to occupy the void. If you haven't the patience to wait, I don't know what else to say. If they were instantaneously, people would simply camp whichever one offered the most EXP and endlessly grind it. When leveling, everyone typically uses the path of least resistance.

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- Waiting for groups. My Frontline queue today ON A SATURDAY was 3 HOURS. Was I even playing the game during this timeframe? No. I was reading a book. The book was more fun and doesn't require a sub. Also, for the past 2 weeks, I've repeatedly joined or made PF groups for A1S. It's an easy turn now that people are geared and know the fight, yet what happens is it takes 1+ hrs to find a group, usually 30 min wiping, then the group disbands. Again, this is not compelling gameplay - it's just another purposeless waiting game. I don't have a static and a static is not practical for me at this time because of a changing schedule. I don't think a static should be REQUIRED just to play the game.

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I will grant you, PvP queues are dreadful most hours of the day, which is something SE hopes to alleviate with The Feast. It cannot be entirely helped FFXIV caters to a primarily PvE centric playerbase, thereby making them less interested in PvP content by extension. Put simply, people don't want to do it, so the queues are long.

As for your PF complaints, there is not much Square can do. Even your proposed solution will not change the fact NA/EU players aren't nearly as keen helping one another, especially on content deemed "old." Ultimately, I do agree there needs to be more mid-core content, however that will not necessarily change the spectrum. Still, open world bosses that actually possess a challenge is something I would like to see FFXIV explore, if only to give people options.