Are my mitigation numbers off ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Answer to below:

Yes, it is.
But dungeons are hardly challenging. And for larger pulls, Bloodbath+Spam-Overpower or Blood Price+Spam-(DA)Abyssal Drain provides far more "mitigation" than Bulwark.
Without talking about the AoE enmity and damage gap...

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Aye upon further thought, I'm not sure where I was going with that point. It's probably my mind trailing off.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Shield presence is not very high when it comes to average mitigation.

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You're being ignorant, or very selective again.

I'll be using data from this source, this source and this source. But as one of it is outdated, I'll be using the numbers of Darksteel Scutum and use that as reference for 3.0 gear

A tower shield of current ilvl would have 14-15% chance to block for 28% worth of damage with the Hive Scutum. Over time that's good for 3.92-4.2% physical mitigation.
The base parry is supposedly 10%, so I'll just go with that. Parrying always mitigates 20% of physical attacks when it occurs. Corrected with shield for paladin the mitigation over time is:
Paladin: 5.62-5.92%
Warrior: 2%
Dark Knight 2%

That's over 3% difference. In case you haven't noticed, the "active mitigation" numbers in your opening post are between 2% and 5%. If you consider tower shields being a thing for 3.0 lately and sheltron guarantees a block, it guarantees a/an additional 28% mitigation on any physical tankbuster. While warriors can do something similar with Raw Intuition, it's CD time is significantly higher and isn't readily available for every physical tankbuster like how Paladins have Sheltron available.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

For tankbuster mitigation, you need frequent mitigation, duration is mostly irrelevant. And Inner Beast still has the shortest cooldown.

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Yes, I'm glad you realise that. I hope you do realise that the "active mitigation amount" you've presented in your opening post is also irrelevant. Also: Inner beast also has the shortest duration - Not like this should be an issue for warriors who know what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You can also mention I didn't include fight duration, since, if the fight is shorter, the tank and the raid will take less damage overall, and self healing skills.
As for group collabored mitigation, it really doesn't depend on the tank, so there's no reason it should affect their relative numbers.

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You conveniently used Thordan EX's AoE damage - Which isn't dependant on the tank either as it's not concentrated on the tank - as an argument in an earlier post:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

Thordan Ex's (mostly) physical damage called. It says "Hello".

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Oh, nice. Long time I had news from him.
How do his children do ? You know, Lightning Storm, Ancient Quaka, Sacred Cross, Holiest Of Holy...

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You're being very selective again on the data you're choosing.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But, even with all this, PLD is far from being the king of mitigation. And is, in fact, absolutely not, in several content.
If you look at the other side of the spectrum, WAR (and DRK) DPS is undoubtedly higher that PLD.

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We're talking about mitigation here and I doubt anyone here doubts the Paladin's position with the DPS driven meta, thus irrelevant.

As for "king of mitigation", on attacks where it counts they actually do possess the most mitigation. Whether they actually deserve the title of "king" is another story. Warriors using everything they have on a physical attack mitigates 48.16% of the damage. Sentinel combined with Shield Oath has 48.16% at the expense of one CD. Even if it's their longest CD aside from Hallowed Ground. For the next tankbuster within the next 90 seconds, Warriors are down to 19% mitigation. That's less than what just Shield Oath or Rampart has to offer. If it was a magical attack, warriors would have even less mitigation. Dark Knight on the other hand would hold a much better position. Their weakness for repeated physical tank busters becomes very apparent.

The new content caters the Dark Knight job far more than Paladin. But if Dark Knights were around for coil, they would have been the least favourite tank.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

As for "king of mitigation", on attacks where it counts they actually do possess the most mitigation. Whether they actually deserve the title of "king" is another story. Warriors using everything they have on a physical attack mitigates 48.16% of the damage. Sentinel combined with Shield Oath has 48.16% at the expense of one CD. Even if it's their longest CD aside from Hallowed Ground. For the next tankbuster within the next 90 seconds, Warriors are down to 19% mitigation. That's less than what just Shield Oath or Rampart has to offer.

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You seem to completely forget the eHP thing. Defiance (Equivalent to Shield Oath for tank busters) and Thrill of Battle + Convo (equivalent to 17% mitigation) also exist. And you're again forgetting Raw Intuition. The king of mitigation right now is WAR, bottom line.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

You seem to completely forget the eHP thing. Defiance (Equivalent to Shield Oath for tank busters) and Thrill of Battle + Convo (equivalent to 17% mitigation) also exist. And you're again forgetting Raw Intuition. The king of mitigation right now is WAR, bottom line.

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He's talking about mitigation. I mentioned eHP in my one of my previous post and I did include Raw Inuitition in the Warrior mitigation percentage in this post.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

We're talking about mitigation here and I doubt anyone here doubts the Paladin's position with the DPS driven meta, thus irrelevant.

As for "king of mitigation", on attacks where it counts they actually do possess the most mitigation. Whether they actually deserve the title of "king" is another story. Warriors using everything they have on a physical attack mitigates 48.16% of the damage. Sentinel combined with Shield Oath has 48.16% at the expense of one CD. Even if it's their longest CD aside from Hallowed Ground. For the next tankbuster within the next 90 seconds, Warriors are down to 19% mitigation. That's less than what just Shield Oath or Rampart has to offer. If it was a magical attack, warriors would have even less mitigation. Dark Knight on the other hand would hold a much better position. Their weakness for repeated physical tank busters becomes very apparent.

The new content caters the Dark Knight job far more than Paladin. But if Dark Knights were around for coil, they would have been the least favourite tank.

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...What? If a Warrior throws every Physical Friendly tool at something(This being Defiance, Raw Intuition, Vengeance, Thrill+Conva, Path, Foresight, and Inner Beast) it is an effective 75.36% reduction in damage. Exactly 90 seconds later they can toss everything except for Vengeance and Thrill+Conva back in there to get 57.6%. If PLD does exactly the same thing they have 77.1% on the first hit and 58.5% 90 seconds later.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

He's talking about mitigation. I mentioned eHP in my one of my previous post and I did include Raw Inuitition in the Warrior mitigation percentage in this post.

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OKay but do you know that eHP is an equivalent to direct mitigation ? You don't seem to know what you're talking about here.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

...What? If a Warrior throws every Physical Friendly tool at something(This being Defiance, Raw Intuition, Vengeance, Thrill+Conva, Path, Foresight, and Inner Beast) it is an effective 75.36% reduction in damage. Exactly 90 seconds later they can toss everything except for Vengeance and Thrill+Conva back in there to get 57.6%. If PLD does exactly the same thing they have 77.1% on the first hit and 58.5% 90 seconds later.

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You'll have to throw that at the OP as he's not including eHP or self healing. I'll respond with similar circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

You'll have to throw that at the OP as he's not including eHP or self healing. I'll respond with similar circumstances.

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Well that's a dumb reaction. You should have corrected him then and bring eHP to the calculations instead of just "respond with similar circumstances".

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

OKay but do you know that eHP is an equivalent to direct mitigation ? You don't seem to know what you're talking about here.

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eHP is only one part of mitigation.

If you want to break it down, mitigation is a combination of eHP and healing efficiency.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

eHP is only one part of mitigation.

Mitigation is a combination of eHP and healing efficiency.

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Yeah that's what I was talking about by just saying "eHP". I included Convo with ToB earlier to say that it's equivalent to 17% mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

You'll have to throw that at the OP as he's not including eHP or self healing. I'll respond with similar circumstances.

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Yes, I'm not, and on purpose.
I've taken every proactive skill on PLD's toolkit (Except Stoneskin, since you frequently have a healer casting it on you, and it has the exact same effect on WAR), and still, PLD is, at best, slightly higher than WAR.

If you add every not-included skill on WAR's toolkit, you'll only increase the gap towards WAR. Which is exactly the problem, since, again, they claimed that PLD is "the tank that mitigates damage".

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, I'm not, and on purpose.
I've taken every proactive skill on PLD's toolkit (Except Stoneskin, since you frequently have a healer casting it on you, and it has the exact same effect on WAR), and still, PLD is, at best, slightly higher than WAR.

If you add every not-included skill on WAR's toolkit, you'll only increase the gap towards WAR. Which is exactly the problem, since, again, they claimed that PLD is "the tank that mitigates damage".

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You really have to take things that Yoshi P says with a grain of salt. He has made numerous misguided statements about the game and in some cases directly contradicted by his development team.

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

You really have to take things that Yoshi P says with a grain of salt. He has made numerous misguided statements about the game and in some cases directly contradicted by his development team.

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"GIT GUD"
/YoshiP

I love how you include Dark Mind when it only affects magic damage even though you're taking an 'average mitigation per second' approach to this given that 99% of the attacks a tank takes at any time is -physical damage-.

There is no Boss currently in game that does only magic damage.

Edit*: Wait, no Vault guy. There is no Raid* Boss currently in game that does only magic damage. Pending a quick research Edit** may appear soon!

Edit**: Node enemies in Coil apparently, but I'm half certain ADS still does physical auto attacks.

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

You really have to take things that Yoshi P says with a grain of salt.

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Ok, suppose PLD doesn't deserve this title, so it's useless to ask for proper adjustment.
What does it do ?
Mitigation ? Not very different than the other two
Enmity ? Enough, but less than the other two
Utility ? Interesting...but not as useful as the other two
Single target damage ? Not "bad" per se, but lower than the other two
Multiple target damage ? Hmmm...lol
So ? What's left ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

(For the sake of calculation, we'll put each tank on an appropriate target. Block and Parry can be fully used, as well as Magical mitigation, tank will also fully focused on mitigation, so 100% uptime for mitigation comboes)

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^

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Edit**: Node enemies in Coil apparently, but I'm half certain ADS still does physical auto attacks.

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Manipulator only does magical damage.

It is not pointless to ask for an adjustment... It is just the TYPE of adjustment you want is pointless. You would have to break the game to give PLD enough mitigation to make it worth brining over higher DPSing tanks.

PLD needs much more utility. Honestly I feel like PLD should bring more healing related buffs. It would be nice if they find some way that the mere inclusion of a PLD to your party comp in some way buffs healers ability to heal THE WHOLE PARTY.

Also your idea of making a tank SO tanky that healers can DPS goes against the obvious design that SE is looking to force healers (RIP healer ACC).

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

PLD needs much more utility. Honestly I feel like PLD should bring more healing related buffs. It would be nice if they find some way that the mere inclusion of a PLD to your party comp in some way buffs healers ability to heal THE WHOLE PARTY.

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Ok, but would it change anything ? Let's say that you have a PLD, so you can heal everyone more easily...what would you do apart from that ?
If you can't DPS, then bringing a PLD will still be worse than bringing a WAR...

If PLD stays at a lower DPS, it must increase the overall DPS of the party in some way to compensate.
What can be done is allowing it to replenish the party MP or TP, allowing BRD and MCH to go full DPS...but that's something that better fits the DRK, for me, because of all the "leech" effect DRK already have.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If PLD stays at a lower DPS, it must increase the overall DPS of the party in some way to compensate.

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The most direct route would be to give PLD a way to apply Vulnerability to their opponent. In this way, they would be indirectly contributing to group DPS. If balanced properly, it would make up the gap between PLD MT and DRK and WAR MT DPS. And in order to avoid making PLD suddenly necessary again, make it not 100% uptime (though still a result of our action, so we can control when it applies). Not sure how this would fit in with the job fantasy, but it would definitely make PLD a lot more desirable.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

The most direct route would be to give PLD a way to apply Vulnerability to their opponent. In this way, they would be indirectly contributing to group DPS. If balanced properly, it would make up the gap between PLD MT and DRK and WAR MT DPS. And in order to avoid making PLD suddenly necessary again, make it not 100% uptime (though still a result of our action, so we can control when it applies). Not sure how this would fit in with the job fantasy, but it would definitely make PLD a lot more desirable.

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I like this idea, actually just suggested something similar in the other Paladin thread.

Though I think the idea of the Paladin inspiring party members and giving them a damage buff may fit the Paladin theme a bit more than applying a debuff like ninja's trick attack would. Ultimately either would work while leaving the Warrior to be the "damage" tank and letting paladin still contribute to raid damage.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

The most direct route would be to give PLD a .....PLD a lot more desirable.

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For my personal Preference I would rather have Paladin be more tankish as well as better in the dmg reduction support, but that standpoint is a lore standpoint and not a gameplay standpoint....

If something like that would be implemented You are definitly right that it should not have 100% uptime, maybe a 5s vulnerability after shild swipe (so at most 33% uptime but i'm not sure if that is still to strong), the other Problem would be not having it while OT.

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Originally Posted by Anthius

Though I think the idea of the Paladin inspiring party members and giving them a damage buff

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Some kind of Divine Veil counterpart...OR, maybe Divine Veil effect could change wether you use Shield Oath or Sword Oath...

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Originally Posted by Tam_Hawkins

If something like that would be implemented You are definitly right that it should not have 100% uptime, maybe a 5s vulnerability after shild swipe (so at most 33% uptime but i'm not sure if that is still to strong), the other Problem would be not having it while OT.

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Exactly why Shied swipe is the absolute worst move to modify out of all of Pld's skill set. It has to be proc'd to be used. This means that changing the effect of Shield Swipe would be severely limiting the utility of Pld's. For one, to even use it you basically must be MT. It's for this reason that Shield Swipe was never considered a good way of maintaining TP. OT Pld's are constantly screwed, and that's crap. Any changes made should consider the possibility of Pld OT'ing as well as the possibility that the boss simply doesn't attack physically (A4, anyone?). Not to mention the fact that you would be basing a large part of Pld utility on random chance. I disagree with that on principle. Whatever changes they make should be based on player skill, not luck.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

He's talking about mitigation. I mentioned eHP in my one of my previous post and I did include Raw Inuitition in the Warrior mitigation percentage in this post.

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You've already acknowledged just talking about actual mitigation abilities is dumb, so why continue? This should be about abilities that either effect eHP (if you're talking about taking a big hit or lots of damage in a short time) or healing efficiency (when you're talking about healer's ability to sustain you).

It's fine if you want to use mitigation as a term that encompasses eHP and healing efficiency (although it can be confusing for anyone being too literal about it). But you need to convert other abilities that effect hit points and healing directly into their mitigation equivalents to do so. Can't just leave those out and have any kind of meaningful discussion on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Exactly why Shied swipe is the absolute worst move to modify out of all of Pld's skill set. It has to be proc'd to be used. This means that changing the effect of Shield Swipe would be severely limiting the utility of Pld's. For one, to even use it you basically must be MT. It's for this reason that Shield Swipe was never considered a good way of maintaining TP. OT Pld's are constantly screwed, and that's crap. Any changes made should consider the possibility of Pld OT'ing as well as the possibility that the boss simply doesn't attack physically (A4, anyone?). Not to mention the fact that you would be basing a large part of Pld utility on random chance. I disagree with that on principle. Whatever changes they make should be based on player skill, not luck.

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It was a good idea to adjust that move as they did. DRK & WAR have specific DPS boosts for when they are getting hit or when they're in tank stance to improve MT DPS. This finally brings something like that to the PLD to close the DPS gap a little while tanking.

If there was a problem, it's that there weren't more adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Some kind of Divine Veil counterpart...OR, maybe Divine Veil effect could change wether you use Shield Oath or Sword Oath...

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That would be nice... but Divine Veil has an awfully long CD and very specific utility. That, in itself, is not a killer (Battle Litany also has a long CD, but it's still effective), but Pld's already use it at pre-scripted parts of fights (such as high AoE dmg boss mechs). So, in fights with fluctuating boss defense (like Ravana) Pld's would not be nearly as efficient and be torn between using Divine Veil to boost offense during vulnerability phases or defense during LB's and raid wide dmg. Most Plds would have to opt for offensive uses of Divine Veil because during a lot (as in most) of Raid wide damaging attacks, the boss becomes un-target-able. Meaning the Pld would be saving the party from dmg, but wasting most of the dmg buff. Basically, no matter how a Pld used it, half of it's utility would be wasted. The only way to completely get full efficiency out of Divine Veil like this would be to bring Two Pld's and have them decided in advance who is using Divine Veil for Offense and who is using it for Defense. It's nice to have options and all... but I see this causing more problems than solving them.

I do like the idea of changing effects based on Oath though. It would dramatically improve the enjoyment of the players and the utility of our Oaths if we had actual reasons to stance dance (besides taking full advantage of Fight or Flight). I think SE could potentially fix all of Pld's problems if they just utilized the system they already have in place.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Some kind of Divine Veil counterpart...OR, maybe Divine Veil effect could change wether you use Shield Oath or Sword Oath...

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I wish flash had blind on it baseline so it was a more meaningful cross class ability.

And I wish the PLD flash talent applied a debuff that increased damage (or at least magic damage) to the target for the next 5-10seconds. Would help lagging PLD aoe DPS without just giving them a straight AoE DPS move.

No, it would not be a solution to give one of the tanks a unique vulnerability up debuff. That would be terrible because if it's balanced at an equal amount of gear, that tank would be overpowered during the middle part of progression when the DPS get weapons first (especially once all 4 have it) even assuming that the 3.2 changes linearize how fast tank DPS scales as we outgear content. If the 3.2 changes don't do that it would be even more messed up when one tank is in VIT and another is in DPS gear.

Just give up on this stupid insistance that PLD is the pure tank when we all know it would be game-breaking to actually make them a measurably better tank than the other two and increase Paladin's DPS; it's not even contrary to the lore or anything since PLD are basically the elite royal guard and not some sort of juggernaut that made a pacifistic oath. There's literally no reason whatsoever PLD should have low DPS or a lack of magic mitigating skills (or DRK should lack physical mitigating skills, TP management in Grit, or any utility whatsoever as OT).

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

It was a good idea to adjust that move as they did. DRK & WAR have specific DPS boosts for when they are getting hit or when they're in tank stance to improve MT DPS. This finally brings something like that to the PLD to close the DPS gap a little while tanking.

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This is actually false.

It is a fact that taking Shield Swipe off of the GCD improves Pld Dps on Bosses; however, the amount of Dps gained is marginal (as in nearly pointless, especially with the potency nerf inflicted on SW) and there are HUGE trade offs for this tiny concession. Without going into specific numbers, Mob tanking/enmity/mitigation/and dmg as well as general Tp consumption have gotten immensely worse on Pld because of this change.

Shield Swipe no longer acts as a stopgap for Plds, because it no longer delays their primary combos. There are now ZERO interruption to Pld Tp consumption (unless you include Flash, which does ZERO dmg and hurts party dps output), so they can burn their Tp bar like it's going out of fashion. This used to be a problem mostly for boss fights, but now it can be seen even in Mob tanking. Pld's no longer have the option of threading their Primary combos with Shield Swipe, so their RoH combo can only be interrupted by Flash. To hold aggro efficiently, they have now been restricted to using Flash more often which, again, hurts dmg values.

Mob tanking itself has taken a hit because of this. Pld's no longer have the ability to exploit Shield Swipe as a means of holding mob aggro. After 3.0 you could run into a mob, Shield Lob > Flash > and then cycle your RoH combo with Shield Swipes threaded in between each move (FB > SW > SB > SW > RoH etc). If you made sure you had RoH land on a different target every time, you reduced your overall incoming dmg using the debuff while maxing your enmity on that target. If you did the same thing with Shield Swipe (alternated a new target each time) you were maxing enmity while debuffing with Pacify. If you were doing a bigger pull you could pop Bulwark to make this rotation even more efficient. If you spread your enmity well enough using Shield Swipe, you could even forego the use of RoH after one or two applications in favour of Goring Blade to increase your Dps even further. It got to the point where, if you knew how to do this really well, a Pld needed no more than 1 or 2 Flashes to hold aggro and it was all about dealing pure dmg while increasing mitigation. For a blissfully short time, we weren't miles behind War's and Drks on holding mob aggro while outputting Dps and were even a little ahead in terms of mob mitigation because of Pacify/RoH applications. Now we can't do this nearly as efficiently.

TL;DR:
Pros of taking SW off the GCD: Minuscule increase to Pld Dps on Bosses

Cons: Reduced Enmity on Mobs. Reduced Dmg on Mobs. Reduced dmg mitigation on mobs. Increased Tp consumption without respite. Reduced efficiency and utility of Bulwark/Shelltron.

Verdict: Was taking Shield Swipe off of the GCD a "good" change? In short, no.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I wish flash had blind on it baseline so it was a more meaningful cross class ability.

And I wish the PLD flash talent applied a debuff that increased damage (or at least magic damage) to the target for the next 5-10seconds. Would help lagging PLD aoe DPS without just giving them a straight AoE DPS move.

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Neither of these would be effective for actual Tanking...

If Flash bound its targets, positioning them accordingly would be extremely difficult. Tank's have to think about that kind of thing. If i'm doing a stretch or drag pull, Flash would stop me dead in my tracks. If I wanted to keep Mob Aoe's away from the party, Flash would stop me from doing that. Given that Flash is the only AoE way a Pld can fast grab group enmity, this would be terrible for them.

The debuff wold be bad too, especially for casters. It sounds like a really good idea at first, but, again, it wouldn't work for a tank. The whole point of Flash is to hold aggro. If it applied a Debuff that allowed AoE casters to do more dmg, Pld's would be risking increasing the enmity of their party more than their own. It would be like applying the effect of overhealing to your casters. Pld's already have a hard enough time holding mob enmity (weakest enmity multiplier and zero aoe dmg), doing this would only make it worse.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Verdict: Was taking Shield Swipe off of the GCD a "good" change? In short, no.

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If there was a problem, it's that there weren't more adjustments. Specifically to other abilities to deal with PLD shortcomings in terms of TP and threat.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Neither of these would be effective for actual Tanking...

If Flash bound its targets..

The whole point of Flash is to hold aggro....

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BLIND

All the casters have access to moves to control enmity. If they use them appropriately, there shouldn't be an issue regardless of who is tanking.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

If there was a problem, it's that there weren't more adjustments. Specifically to other abilities to deal with PLD shortcomings in terms of TP and threat.

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That doesn't change that it is currently a bad change to Pld's and can actually be considered a nerf in terms of everyday mob tanking... and, quite frankly, I don't think it's likely that they will make the changes that would be required to restore balance.The only 3 that I can even think of off of the top of my head are: 1. Increased Enmity gen off of RoH. 2. Shorter CoS CD and increased enmity gen, or 3. make flash do dmg. 1. Might be viable if Tp consumption wasn't such a nightmare. 2. Seems okay, but they could have done this at any time over the last year and have refused to, and 3... well, 3 is just straight up unlikely due to the fact that it's a cross class skill.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

BLIND

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Oh jeez. Speaking of blind, apparently I am XD. Sorry about that. I don't have any problem with Blind being cross class effect... But I don't think it would really make a difference. The diminishing returns on Blind would be the same, and it's hardly a noticeable effect when Pld's use it, so, really, take it or leave it. Casters would probably get more use out of it than Plds do (all the power to them), but I don't see it making enough of a difference to warrant anyone changing their cross class skills for it.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

All the casters have access to moves to control enmity. If they use them appropriately, there shouldn't be an issue regardless of who is tanking.

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That is fine and dandy on paper, but it makes no difference in practice. Casters already have the ability to control their enmity right now, but they can still steal hate easily enough off of Plds. Even as small a difference as 10 item levels can crush a Pld's underwhelming enmity over AoE spamming Dps. If they can steal hate with nerfs to their own enmity, giving them a buff would make it all that much easier.

Now, I'm not saying that it's a bad idea outright. I'd be fine with it, but not with the current state of Pld. Right now, they just don't have enough enmity to warrant making this viable. Pld's already have enough things that force them to over-use Flash to hold hate. Buffing caster dmg without giving Pld's a way to compensate would only make this worse.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Shield Swipe complaints

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Taking Shield Swipe off GCD was a good change. It adds the same amount of DPS as Spirits Within/Circle of Scorn in single target (~50 with a Thordan weapon and STR accessories). If you ever used Shield Swipe in 3.1 you were honestly just wasting GCDs. The TP you saved likely wouldn't be enough to make up for the damage you lost, and using it on trash pulls is an even bigger waste because it means you're not applying Goring (your highest potency ability) to multiple targets. I've never had trouble holding aggro with a couple of Flashes followed by a buffed Circle of Scorn, with another Flash or two later for the blind. I don't need the tiny damage reduction from having Halone up on 2.5 targets, or from pacification.

Pacify+Blind was actually pretty huge in dungeons since you could prevent things like the Rotoswipe from the dread or cleave from the giant in Fractal basically as you wished while taking limited auto-attack damage. The threat was also very helpful if I got a bad (DPS) healer and decided to SwO the entire dungeon since it let me generate threat quickly if one target was dying faster without having to prep my combo or cancel my Goring Blade combo.

All told I think it was better than no change at all, but still a bad change. Now we don't have a valid method to make our Goring Blade DoT duration make sense and the TP situation is worse than it was in 3.0 (even in A4S where you only got to swipe on adds!) The DPS gained is also quite small unless you're really lucky (if you get it to proc 100% of the time on cooldown it's like 50 DPS, but my experience has been more like 15-30). Increasing the potency so that it was a comparable gain on average to Reprisal instead of just taking it off the GCD to be as similar to Reprisal as possible would have been preferable. It's just another symptom of the total lack of any thought that's been put into the tanks as of 3.0 and SE's attempt to give us the easiest possible change and pretend it will fix a deep problem.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

That would be terrible because if it's balanced at an equal amount of gear, that tank would be overpowered during the middle part of progression when the DPS get weapons first

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Why ?

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

Just give up on this stupid insistance that PLD is the pure tank when we all know it would be game-breaking to actually make them a measurably better tank than the other two and increase Paladin's DPS

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Again, why ? For the increase "tankiness" part. The "increase DPS" part, for me, is not a good solution if we want each tank to be really different than the others.

It's a good thing to explain your reasoning, and even give examples, of why something would be "game-breaking" or "break the balance".

Buff Paladin correctly/better plz FFXIV dev team


Step 1: Stop listening to your boss Yoshi-P, and do what is right, and fix the problem, then ignoring it.

Step 2: Buff emnity on Savage/Rage of Halone multipliers to that of the other tanks, and boost the potency of Halone.

Step 3: Buff Plds dps, mainly looking at Plds dps loss while in shield oath, and bring Shield Swipe potency back up to 210.

Step 4: Buff Plds utilities or overhaul them, or just completely throw away Clemancy/Divine Veil out of the window, and just give us two skills that are actually more useful, like idk a dmg aoe for Pld, then more niche items in a already heavy, niche, Pld tool set, or give our highly situational skills to have dual uses, like Tempered Will giving Pld a Surecast or Swiftcast effect.

Step 5: Make Plds cross class skills more useful to Pld(seriously I only use Mercy Stroke/Bloodbath/Foresight anymore during raids, and that is it....stoneskin lol..cast time, and -dps, but still a great skill, but current meta just makes it less useful.

a. If Pld is meant to cast spells then have Skill Speed affect the speed which spells are casted by a Pld.

b. Vit is suppose to be tanks main stat so have spell strength on Pld be scaled with Vit, looking at Cure 1 cross class skill a less powerful, but a more mp friend alternative to Clemancy, with a actual gcd cast time of 2.5secs, and not 3secs. So scale CNJ spells first before giving Pld other spells or heals. Seriously why doesn't Pld have a trait to make CNJ skills useful for Pld.

Edit: Mmm...spell strength is also effected by weapon strength, correct? So have spell scale off both weapon strength, and Vit for Pld.

Step 6: Stop this terrible meta of physical/magical, and heavy dps tanks ideology. Tanks are tanks telling a tank by class design they can't or are less effective to tank whatever is a very bad idea, and design choice. Change the physcial/magical mitigation, and dps heavy meta, so each tank can mt or ot effectively. Tank differance in mitigation/dps should not leave a big enough gap, where a tank can't perform it's primary role, or seen less effective/burden in content.

But whatever just my quick thoughts, and means nothing on the OF, but these are things I find annoying when I play Pld, and need to change imo, and all we got is wait till 3.2 for these "tank dps changes," since Pld really didn't get buffs it needed in 3.1. But really if SE can't fix a class now, and refuses to fix, and prefers to just ignore it. I don't see how these 3.2 whatever changes are going to be anything different. It's like putting another a band-aid on top of a band-aid, does that really help? :/

***And really Plds mitigation doesn't make up for it's difference in less dps compared to the other tanks in the current raid tier. Maybe if it was so high it allowed raid groups to only bring 1 healer or just 1 tank to a group, but people would only scream unbalanced, and how broken Pld defenses are if that was a thing, Pld already has this stigma from past raids in Coil. Easiest change would be just boost Pld dps in general.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Why ?

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Currently PLD is just about 20% under the other tanks for a few Paladins in the world and much more than that for the rest. To make up for that you would need a vulnerability up debuff that adds about 4-5% to total party DPS. That's like 3x Trick Attack so it would be by far the biggest party-wide DPS buff in the game.

If you give the DPS weapons first, the PLD's DPS added would go up along with theirs since that 5% is tied up in party DPS while the other tanks' would not go up. In fact, you could give the other tank and the Scholar a weapon first since the PLD buffs each of their DPS as well. This is sort of what you see with Bard (except their gear also gives much less weapon damage than other jobs). This is really bad, but it wouldn't really be game-breaking since we're still talking about less than 100 DPS. On the other hand, if they don't eliminate DPS gearing for tanks in 3.2, a PLD could gear for HP when needed and still retain a few hundred extra DPS for free on top of that in the form of this vulnerability up debuff, which really does start to cause serious balance problems on one side or the other.

As for the tankiness part, we know that that is a problem because of how 2.0 worked out. If damage on the tank is sufficiently threatening then the tank with superior mitigation provides an excessive advantage over the other tank. (Basically, an i70 PLD could fairly comfortably survive Death Sentence and even an i55 one could if perfectly prepped and WARs struggled even with higher tiers of gear until they got a mitigating toolkit in 2.1). If damage on the tank is not sufficiently threatening, that extra mitigation has little value (not quite none, but it very quickly falls toward none) as we have seen with PLD in A3S in this patch. The only time this isn't true is if you can eliminate one of the tanks or healers entirely (like how a PLD could solo-tank Bahamut Prime even with the adds tethered to him and through Ahk Morn), but this is a problem in and of itself that SE has worked very had to make impossible with mechanics like Hand of Prayer.

Trying to make the tanks unique from one another by differentiating their capability at tanking...is not the way to go. A tank needs to hit all the functions of a tank that are required by the game (right now: mitigation, DPS, effective healing, threat generation) and the uniqueness of the class should be from mechanics or unique utility skills (like Defiance or Cover).

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

Currently PLD is just about 10% under the other tanks. To make up for that you would need a vulnerability up debuff that adds about 2-3% to total party DPS.

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Isn't that the same with slashing debuff ? WAR increases damage for NIN and other tanks, included itself. Of course, it doesn't increase the damage for the whole party, but you can have it applied 100% of the time. Adjusting the uptime of the vulnerability debuff is an easy to prevent too much DPS increase...and of course, not stacking it with Trick Attack.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

As for the tankiness part, we know that that is a problem because of how 2.0 worked out.

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2.0 was a little extreme on that. It wasn't that PLD had better mitigation than WAR, but that WAR had barely enough mitigation for the content.
Personnaly, I think they overdid it a little between :
- not any mitigation and healing boost tied to wrath
and
- constant healing boost to Defiance, mitigation in Inner Beast, mitigation in Storm's Path, mitigation in Vengeance and "ultimate survival" in Holmgang

Again, the extra mitigation is not inherently useless. Tanks survive because healers cure them. More mitigation requires less healing, thus healers could do something else...like DPSing.
The problem, in the current state of the game, is that the tank with the worst mitigation (Whatever it is) already allows healers to do lot of DPS, so, whatever additionnal mitigation PLD offers, it's not significant...whereas its personal lesser DPS is.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

the uniqueness of the class should be from mechanics or unique, moderate-power utility skills (like Defiance or Cover).

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Which is already a problem, since every tank use the same mechanic to survive. It could have been much more interesting to have one tank that survives through mitigation, one through self-healing, one though leeching, etc...
If they were, they could have the exact same mitigation and the exact same DPS, because each player would pick one depending on the gameplay. Exactly like how most DPS are mostly on par with each other, but with different mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It could have been much more interesting to have one tank that survives through mitigation, one through self-healing, one though leeching, etc

EDITING

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I mean in 2.0 WAR had the self-healing and that just didn't work for the way the game works. Mitigation for tank busters is the main mechanic for tanks right now.

I'm talking about Wrath vs. oGCD Cooldowns+Casting. Unfortunately, they've made casting basically un-viable on PLD so it's just oGCD Cooldowns, oGCD Cooldowns with Dark Arts before one of them, and oGCD Cooldowns+Wrath.

I edited my post since PLD is actually 15-25% behind it seems when I checked the latest numbers.

As for mitigation=>healer DPS...it has to be a lot of extra mitigation. Like so much extra mitigation that damage that would kill a DRK or WAR in a few GCD can just be handled by Regen on a PLD. First of all healers don't get accuracy on their gear anymore and their DoTs are like twice the potency of their filler spells. Second of all this content cycle they've intentionally prevented defensive tanking from improving healer DPS by making mechanics like DPS down in A3, Throttle, and massive damage on the raid instead of on the tank so either the healers can DPS with any tank or they can't DPS with any tank.

Once you get that much extra mitigation, it's going to become a distinct advantage while learning content to just have this invincible tank that can help you top the party up instead of one of the other tanks.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

I mean in 2.0 WAR had the self-healing and that just didn't work for the way the game works.

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I'm not sure that self-healing really didn't work.
The problem was that Defiance (by itself) was clearly weaker than Shield Oath. To be on par, you had to keep all your Wrath, but by doing this, you couldn't use Inner Beast...
So, basically, to use your self-healing, you had to withdraw your healing boost...
If WAR had kept the same self-healing abilities (And they're even better now with Equilibrium) AND their current healing boost, they probably wouldn't need that much "mitigation".

As for DRK, I really think it should have been more interesting to give them a "spike" stance, where each time you're hit, you reflect a fragment of the damage (20% and capped by your HP max) and leech for the same amount. Which would have also been their major mean of DPSing, so their personal skills would have their potency reduced, for balance purpose.

Even your #s for rampart/sentinel are off since 2 forms of the same reduction are multiplicative not additive.

Since your form of "tank stance" is % taken, rampart is actually 16% reduction and sentinel is 32%, assuming you're using those with shield oath. (20% and 40% x .8 not 20% off +20% off or 20+40%)

And you can't just not include holmgang/walking dead. Maybe it'll turn out to be too complex to calculate but you can't just say they get nothing for it. When used properly the only difference between them and Hallowed is a benediction after. So damage taken becomes irrelevant and you might as well count it as on par with Hallowed (or figure out how much mitigation that benediction is worth and subtract it). And then multiply it by how much more frequently it can be used vs Hallowed.

PLD is truly in a sad state.