How do these changes fix the issues with Paladin?

These Paladin changes are horrible.

Even if raid and fight design changes in the future, DRK and WAR will still bring better DPS, utility, and good enough mitigation for every fight.

I'll post it here too, the changes to Shield Swipe should have been the beginning of the list of adjustments, not essentially the end of them. The people on this forum are throwing out ridiculous figures for the relative DPS adjustment that are just totally detached from reality. 5%? 7%? 9%? Really guys? Look up my A1S kill this last week on FFLogs and Reprisal on A1S, which was pushed every time it came up, on a boss with a physical auto-attack uptime of 100% every time they're on screen yielded 2.35% of my damage done. That's it. Shield Swipe in 3.1 used perfectly on cooldown, with a 0ms lapse between uses, is an increase over Reprisal of 90 potency. That's a nice, rounded 30% increase over Reprisal. Factor that into Reprisal's damage and you end up at just over 3%.

This is roughly a 3% damage increase, by the numbers. Stop making shit up.

EDIT: I should also note, that a 3% increase, ONLY while main tanking, does nothing to solve the problems the job faces. It's something, but the job is still fundamentally broken in the current meta. With the changes to Limit Break being role-based, and not job-based, there is now zero argument against running a 2-Warrior setup. Anything else is just worse.

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Originally Posted by rawker

then keep promoting that rook auto-turret of yours ;)

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Cute. :P I switched to back to PLD about a month ago, though. I was main PLD back when t5 was still relevant content.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Oh, it will be.

The TP decrease on GB drops the TP drain to 110 meaning that Paladins will last about 9% longer before they run out of TP.

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That means we'll last 3 minutes instead of 2:45 on stationary targets that have no downtime. Super exciting? A DRK not using grit lasts about 3:30 and warrior lasts until its hands fall off. I don't know how that translates to A3S/A4S since my static imploded like most did, but obviously you'll last longer on fights where you have some downtime even without the change.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

With the changes to Limit Break being role-based, and not job-based, there is no zero argument against running a 2-Warrior setup.

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This was propably most biggest thing in patch notes when it comes to battle content, with this change double warrior will be the way to go. I still kinda hope that it was mis translated as it seems to brake things even more, lucily i only need one more level for my warrior so if this LB thing ends to be true then i can pretty much bench both PLD/DRK and roll for WAR(not to mention double war offers easier way to maintain 100% uptime on both debuffs and it allows both do even more DPS as they can BB combo moar).

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

With the changes to Limit Break being role-based, and not job-based, there is now zero argument against running a 2-Warrior setup. Anything else is just worse.

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No. DRK has higher MT DPS than WAR. It's well known now. If you take a WAR over a DRK as a MT you're gimping your groups DPS. Sometimes, a MT DRK out of Grit will outDPS a WAR in Deliverance (especially in fights like A3S with a lot of parry-able stuff). DRK also allows to not run a MNK without losing the INT debuff. There is zero reason to replace it by another WAR considering that your OT WAR already gives the Storm's debuffs. The MT WAR does not add anything to the party.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

(not to mention double war offers easier way to maintain 100% uptime on both debuffs and it allows both do even more DPS as they can BB combo moar).

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This is also false. WARs have to keep Maim and Fracture up while using Fell Cleave, so they pretty much have to use a Maim combo every other combo most of the time. And if you say something like "this WAR is in charge of Path, the other one is in charge of eye" then it's even worse because the WAR using Path will lose the DPS that the other WAR will gain by never using it. Don't forget also that Path doesn't need near 100% uptime, it just needs to be up here and there, and in A4S it does nothing. Having 2 WARs instead of DRK/WAR is essentially useless and just makes you lose the small but existent utilities of the DRK and its incredibly high MT DPS.

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Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

Since shield swiping will likely still require a successful block (reprisal is drk's equivalent with parry and is also an "Ability"), it'll be a small upgrade for a main tank paladin on a boss that uses physical damage. As offtank, it won't do anything. Person that said it was a 70dps increase is assuming you can use it immediately every 15 seconds, but they didn't say it won't require a successful block to trigger it.

10 tp off goring blade is not going to be noticed. The shield bash change is nice for people doing A4S probably?

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If this change to Shield Swipe still requires an activator this is a direct downgrade to dps, enmity and utility. As soon as the expansion came out Shield Swipe became useless for anything other than crowd control as its damage and enmity multiplier weren't bumped up high enough to compete with the new skills given to DPS and Healer roles. I started noticing its lackluster performance while leveling and now in A2s I have since been tempted to remove it from my hotbar. Goring Blade and Royal Authority more than made up for trying to use Shield Swipe like it was in 2.X. It's the same case for Fracture as well, Goring Blade pretty much single handedly rendered Fracture worthless on Paladin. Especially since it costs 80 TP as well. Mercy Stroke actually took the place for me since it's free damage and I **might** get some HP back if I somehow time it absolutely perfectly.....Mercy Stroke should have been Sole Survivor all along.

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Originally Posted by Shining_Tiger_Excalibur

If this change to Shield Swipe still requires an activator this is a direct downgrade to dps, enmity and utility.

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I think you're not realizing that an oGCD cannot be a DPS loss ? Even if its potency was 1 it would still be an increase compared to what using it provides in 3.0, because it's changing from being on the GCD to being off the GCD, it's basically FREE DAMAGE. What's wrong with you guys not understanding that ? The fact that it requires an activator doesn't change anything and the activator required which is blocking is happening super often with a PLD. Sheltron gives you the possibility to at least get that Shield Swipe every 30 sec, you just need a random block in between these 30sec in order to have it almost on cooldown. That's a fucking good buff to the skill and an actual increase in DPS AND enmity generation for PLD, and it means that it will require less RoH to maintain aggro, thus leading into more DPS gain from having the possibility to use RA more.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

I think you're not realizing that an oGCD cannot be a DPS loss ? Even if its potency was 1 it would still be an increase compared to what using it provides in 3.0, because it's changing from being on the GCD to being off the GCD, it's basically FREE DAMAGE. What's wrong with you guys not understanding that ? The fact that it requires an activator doesn't change anything and the activator required which is blocking is happening super often with a PLD. Sheltron gives you the possibility to at least get that Shield Swipe every 30 sec, you just need a random block in between these 30sec in order to have it almost on cooldown. That's a fucking good buff to the skill and an actual increase in DPS AND enmity generation for PLD, and it means that it will require less RoH to maintain aggro, thus leading into more DPS gain from having the possibility to use RA more.

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'I'll post it here too, the changes to Shield Swipe should have been the beginning of the list of adjustments, not essentially the end of them. The people on this forum are throwing out ridiculous figures for the relative DPS adjustment that are just totally detached from reality. 5%? 7%? 9%? Really guys? Look up my A1S kill this last week on FFLogs and Reprisal on A1S, which was pushed every time it came up, on a boss with a physical auto-attack uptime of 100% every time they're on screen yielded 2.35% of my damage done. That's it. Shield Swipe in 3.1 used perfectly on cooldown, with a 0ms lapse between uses, is an increase over Reprisal of 90 potency. That's a nice, rounded 30% increase over Reprisal. Factor that into Reprisal's damage and you end up at just over 3%.

This is roughly a 3% damage increase, by the numbers. Stop making shit up.

EDIT: I should also note, that's a 3% increase, ONLY while main tanking, does nothing to solve the problems the job faces. It's something, but the job is still fundamentally broken in the current meta.' ---Kyne Lyons

I'm inclined to agree with him in that this is in no way as great a change as people are making it out to be and has actually changed the job for the worst. This is not enough from them to warrant this kind of praise in the slightest. You only focused on the DPS part of my statement as well....DPS certainly is an issue, but it's not the only issue Paladins face with having something like this changed. Pacification in dungeons was a good thing when you noticed your healer somewhat struggling to heal you, and that's gone now since it's a 15 second recast time. We've been waiting for over 4 months and THIS is the best they can do????? I'm growing increasingly tired of them forcing EITHER Dark Knight or Paladin to be main tank all the time every time. People should have at least some choice.

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Originally Posted by Shining_Tiger_Excalibur

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I never said that it was a huge DPS increase, it's just a huge buff for the skill itself, and I never said that PLD didn't need any more changes. Yeah, its DPS will still be shite compared to the other tanks even after this change, but it will be LESS shite. It's an increase. What you were basically stating is that it was a loss, which is false. I also never said that PLD only needed tweaks on the DPS side of things. I just pointed out the mistake you made about judging the change to Shield Swipe as a DPS and enmity loss since it's obviously an increase in both domains.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

I never said that it was a huge DPS increase, it's just a huge buff for the skill itself, and I never said that PLD didn't need any more changes. Yeah, its DPS will still be shite compared to the other tanks even after this change, but it will be LESS shite. It's an increase. What you were basically stating is that it was a loss, which is false. I also never said that PLD only needed tweaks on the DPS side of things. I just pointed out the mistake you made about judging the change to Shield Swipe as a DPS and enmity loss since it's obviously an increase in both domains.

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I'm not willing to be as easily pleased as some people. This isn't good enough to settle down and forget Paladins being mocked since 2.1 in increasing frequency meanwhile the company doesn't give a shit to fix things for all jobs yet has the time to damned near perfect 3-4 of them. It's inexcusable and "slightly better" isn't slightly better to me. I'll admit that some of my statements are slightly erroneous but just saying 'hey it's slightly less than dog shit now' isn't something that should even be uttered from people's mouths.

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Originally Posted by Shining_Tiger_Excalibur

I'm not willing to be as easily pleased as some people. This isn't good enough to settle down and forget Paladins being mocked since 2.1 in increasing frequency meanwhile the company doesn't give a shit to fix things for all jobs yet has the time to damned near perfect 3-4 of them. It's inexcusable and "slightly better" isn't slightly better to me. I'll admit that some of my statements are slightly erroneous but just saying 'hey it's slightly less than dog shit now' isn't something that should even be uttered from people's mouths.

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I'm not saying that Paladins should be pleased with that. I'm just saying that the Shield Swipe change is a buff, that's all. Yeah they need more, a lot more, but it's not because they need more that this change is negative. It's still an increase in performance at some degree. Actually I think that tank changes are gonna come in 3.2. Yoshi stated in the last interview that he wants to alleviate the differences between tanks in terms of weaknesses and strengths in order to prevent one from being almost excluded from raid content like PLD is right now or like WAR was in 2.0. We also know that they want to change the encounter design, they'll also change the damage calculation for tanks, and the accessories are gonna be reworked (they said that the new raid and token accessories from 3.2 will be much more powerful than now). The meta might change a lot in 3.2, they can't do anything to change the meta in 3.1 because it doesn't bring a new raid tier, it just adds more side content to the already established 3.0 meta.

I don't know where you saw that PLD is being mocked since 2.1... Until 2.55 it was the most popular MT and everyone loved it. PLD's fall started with 3.0 and will hopefully for all PLD mains end in 3.2 with the release of the next raid tier.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Stuff.

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I've already seen 2 FCs run Double Warrior through A4S and they kill it much faster than we do with DRK/WAR. So no, you're wrong. Like, very wrong. Do you expect MT Warriors to sit in Defiance all day or something? People who clear the content don't do this. On top of that, with Double Warrior you take a Monk for Dragon Kick, and most of the time Monks have higher DPS than a Ninja, or a Dragoon anyways. Yes, this is including Disembowel and Battle Litany.

Source:
http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#boss=21
http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#boss=20

^The fights where DPS is actually a concern. Please get out with anecdotal logic.

Truth be told, I think the LB change was meant to help out DPS options more than tanks, but despite the prolonged suffering PLD's and possibly DRK's will have to endure it might make SE see the see how lopsided WAR is favored now that the LB limitation is gone.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

With the changes to Limit Break being role-based, and not job-based, there is now zero argument against running a 2-Warrior setup. Anything else is just worse.

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Except they didn't say anything about removing the previous penalty you get if you take two or more members of the same job/class and instead looks to be a means to prevent from taking 3 healers, 3 tanks, 3 physical dps or 3 ranged. Also you don't que for Savage via duty finder, maybe that'll change.

If anything seems that new primal fights such as the new Thordan battle is going to be effected by these changes assuming it doesn't go right to DF with the option to que for it solo.

No kidding you don't queue for Savage via the duty finder, is that what you think this is about? People are cagey about it because, as you said, it wasn't explicitly stated. It also forces every group to run 2-melee, which is superior anyways, but seems like a strange design decision. The dev's headspace is really hard to get into right now.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

No kidding you don't queue for Savage via the duty finder, is that what you think this is about? People are cagey about it because, as you said, it wasn't explicitly stated. It also forces every group to run 2-melee, which is superior anyways, but seems like a strange design decision. The dev's headspace is really hard to get into right now.

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More along the lines that double war may not be a thing, at least for early progression, since you may still be killing the rate of your LB gauge rising due to assumptions instead of facts of the LB bar.

Hard to get into right now as it seems to have been a waste of development time they could have used for something else. :/

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

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Yeah you selected parses about the best MNKs, and I can tell you that the DRKs in these groups are pretty low. Look at what really good DRKs are doing http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...pec=DarkKnight almost every A3S parses with real DRKs have the WAR being behind the DRK. You also don't seem to be taking into account the fact that in these parses, the WAR is OTing, thus doesn't need to activate his tanking stance as much as the DRK.

MNK may be the highest DPS right now but DRG and NIN both increase the DPS of everyone else in the party (DRG with Battle Litany + bringing Disembowel for the BRD/MCH, NIN with fucking Trick Attack which is awesomely awesome), and MNK utility is erased by the DRK which IS the highest MT DPS PERIOD. I hell know that a WAR isn't staying in Defiance while tanking, as much as a DRK isn't standing in Grit either. And Gritless DRK > Deliverance WAR in physical fights, that's also a known fact. The only fight where DRK isn't that high in MT DPS is A4S because there is nothing to parry except the adds. I can't believe there is still someone believing that WAR is above DRK while MTing.

You're ignoring all data that doesn't agree with you and being selective/ignoring the facts, maybe because you only know how your group performs? I think we're done here.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

You're ignoring all data that doesn't agree with you and being selective/ignoring the facts, maybe because you only know how your group performs? I think we're done here.

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Yeah that's why I sent you multiple FFlogs parses with numbers that clearly shows DRK is the best MT DPS. The one who is ignoring facts that doesn't agree with him between us is you. I'm also not the only one stating that. It's a well known fact.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

My opinions are facts, even though people who can actually beat the content generally disagree.

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Yeah, okay.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

Yeah, okay.

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You're the only one disagreeing here.

Good luck on A3S.

Funny guy. I've been trolled enough. Not gonna answer again. I'm giving you credits.

DRK actually does outdps WAR when mting in the hands of equally skilled players. A gritless MT DRK is practically dps godmode as they havr access to literally everything in their toolkit and it does push them into the lead. DRK MTs that are actively stance dancing in savage have been demonstrating this for months now.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

DRK actually does outdps WAR when mting in the hands of equally skilled players. A gritless MT DRK is practically dps godmode as they havr access to literally everything in their toolkit and it does push them into the lead. DRK MTs that are actively stance dancing in savage have been demonstrating this for months now.

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Yeah.. no that is impossible. Sorry, maybe your Warrior isn't that good or using a level 1 weapon.

Internal Release+Berserk+Vengeance+Deliverance+Bloodbath

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Nope just stating facts proven by folks that actually, you know, raid.

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Ok, link to these facts. I want to see where you get your information. =)

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Yeah.. no that is impossible. Sorry, maybe your Warrior isn't that good or using a level 1 weapon.

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Nope just stating facts proven by folks that actually, you know, raid.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Yeah.. no that is impossible. Sorry, maybe your Warrior isn't that good or using a level 1 weapon.

Internal Release+Berserk+Vengeance+Unchained+Deliverance+Bloodbath

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http://puu.sh/ld9Do/e68ae4a34a.png

I loled when I read this.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Nope just stating facts proven by folks that actually, you know, raid.

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Or, you know, even know anything about the classes they're talking out their ass about. xD

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I loled when I read this.

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Just stating combos. I'm pretty sick atm and i've got snot running down my face and fogging up my darn glasses. I was stating what you could do in defiance, when I said + deliverance I meant you could switch to that, or use unchained both if your under level 52. I forgot unchained is pretty pointless now that we have deliverance.

Regardless, it is impossible for a Warrior to lose to a Dark Knight whilst MTing unless they don't know how to play Warrior.

Can we get back on track with the thread topic instead of arguing which of the other two tanks is better at doing over 1100 dps and closer to 1200.......

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Originally Posted by Shining_Tiger_Excalibur

Can we get back on track with the thread topic instead of arguing which of the other two tanks is better at doing over 1100 dps and closer to 1200.......

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Yes please. I'm all for it.

Ready for a sick segueway?

For similar reasons to why a DRK Gritless MT DRK's DPS is so high, now a SwO PLD MTing may now be able to do some very competitive DPS now with both benefits from SwO on top of Shield Swipe procs. I dunno if it'll come close to their WAR or DRK OT but it'll still be pretty good I'll wager.

What they need to focus on IMO is not PLD's DPS. Yes I think it could be higher and particularly RoH needs to be buffed to like 280-290 pot and the enmity modifiers definitely need a buff.

But at the end of the day, no matter what they do with PLD's DPS/enmity it still leaves them with a toolkit that is 50% useless and/or difficult to use effectively. Their defensive utilities like Clemency, Cover, Divine Veil... these all need a huge overhaul to make them attractive and frequently used mechanics of the kit. PLDs could get a 1000 Potency Turbo Fell Cleave Extreme and it wouldn't change the fact that half of their kit is fucking useless and cumbersome and requires you to try extremely niche strategies and tactics to get any mileage of them. When you have utilities that are supposed to be helping your party but other people have to play their jobs differently or be forced into different roles for them be actually useful you have a huge problem.

One design choice that absolutely makes no sense that SE needs to fix immediately is that the two tanks with the highest DPS also have the highest enmity modifiers. There's zero logic to this. If PLD is going to be the lower DPS tank its enmity modifiers need a proportionate boost in relation to those of DRK and WAR, in fact I'd go so far as to say they should be even higher.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Ready for a sick segueway?

For similar reasons to why a DRK Gritless MT DRK's DPS is so high, now a SwO PLD MTing may now be able to do some very competitive DPS now with both benefits from SwO on top of Shield Swipe procs. I dunno if it'll come close to their WAR or DRK OT but it'll still be pretty good I'll wager.

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It won't be anything even remotely near a noticeable difference. If it is indeed going to work like Reprisal for DRK with a tad more potency....we're looking at **maybe** double digit improvement and that's it. Paladins, based off the numbers to measure dick sizes being provided in this thread, are anywhere from 150 to about 350 DPS behind depending on the encounter design and uptime on boss......

For Oppressor max DPS Paladin is close to a flat 1000. Warrior is clocked at about 1300-ish. Dark Knight is near Warrior with about 1220-ish DPS.
When the encounter design is around tank swaps and peeling away from the boss for a tether like during Living Liquid the gap closes, but that's ONLY because the Warrior needs to build himself back up to do massive damage via stacks and debuff while a Paladin just keeps doing what they're doing. Even then Dark Knight isn't far behind Warrior in numbers while Paladin still sits 150 DPS behind.

Basically, this change to Shield Swipe isn't enough to even begin attaining balance.

EDIT: Another basically thing is, the longer Warrior and Dark Knight are on a boss with no need to swap or grab tethers compared to Paladin, the more they stomp the ever living hell out of Paladin. It's only when their focus is taken away and their stacks drop that we're even close to being on level ground at 100-125ish DPS behind. Which in an encounter that lasts for more than five minutes will show a divide of TENS of THOUSANDS of damage on the LOW end of us being 125 DPS behind. When we get into the encounters where the other two tanks are 300+ DPS ahead of us that gap is magnified exponentially.

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Originally Posted by Shining_Tiger_Excalibur

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The balance does not just concern DPS though. If you gave PLD WAR or DRK-level deeps it still wouldn't fix the rest of their kit which is disjointed and revolves around mechanics that are utterly divorced from eachother with the sole exception of Sheltron for block procs and MP. PLD wouldn't need insane DPS if their utility simply got the fix it deserves, for the same reason that BRDs don't need to do MNK or SMN-level dps. Imagine if they did something (totally unrealistic) like giving Paeon or Ballad to PLD. You could ditch your BRD/MCH and bring an extra caster. BRD/MCH would still have their place in DRK/WAR groups. You could also forgo a DRG for a MNK/NIN since you'd have no ranged DPS needing the piercing debuff. Something like that could open party compositions up to entirely new possibilities. As I said, its highly unlikely. But balance is something that concerns the entire party, not just the tanks.

You could even give PLD abilities to make it function as a healer/tank hybrid, like a Lustrate/Tetra clone and perhaps a Soil/Asylum clone as well. Thus allowing you to forgo a WHM, bring a SCH/AST and allow them to dip into cleric stance far more often. It'd be a totally different playstyle and would fit in with the direction that they've established for PLD. PLD isn't the raging berserker that is WAR and its not the menacing death-dealer that is DRK. Its a protector, a meat shield. They are not going to abandon that design choice any more than they are going to nerf WAR or DRK's DPS.

Giving PLD high personal DPS is A. Not likely to happen and B. Not the only fix to the problem.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

The balance does not just concern DPS though. If you gave PLD WAR or DRK-level deeps it still wouldn't fix the rest of their kit which is disjointed and revolves around mechanics that are utterly divorced from eachother with the sole exception of Sheltron for block procs and MP. PLD wouldn't need insane DPS if their utility simply got the fix it deserves, for the same reason that BRDs don't need to do MNK or SMN-level dps. Imagine if they did something (totally unrealistic) like giving Paeon or Ballad to PLD. You could ditch your BRD/MCH and bring an extra caster. BRD/MCH would still have their place in DRK/WAR groups. You could also forgo a DRG for a MNK/NIN since you'd have no ranged DPS needing the piercing debuff. Something like that could open party compositions up to entirely new possibilities. As I said, its highly unlikely. But balance is something that concerns the entire party, not just the tanks.

You could even give PLD abilities to make it function as a healer/tank hybrid, like a Lustrate/Tetra clone and perhaps a Soil/Asylum clone as well. Thus allowing you to forgo a WHM, bring a SCH/AST and allow them to dip into cleric stance far more often. It'd be a totally different playstyle and would fit in with the direction that they've established for PLD. PLD isn't the raging berserker that is WAR and its not the menacing death-dealer that is DRK. Its a protector, a meat shield. They are not going to abandon that design choice any more than they are going to nerf WAR or DRK's DPS.

Giving PLD high personal DPS is A. Not likely to happen and B. Not the only fix to the problem.

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Oh, I completely understand where you're coming from saying that it's not just a DPS issue. Our kit is indeed a mess. I have a signature in my posts of a thread I took days to type out for suggesting changes they could make to the job that would be a way to fix it. The community pretty much accepted the thread with neutrality and it's since died. I've been saying the job needs reworked to even accomplish balance for a while now. I also said the longer they prolong fixing it the more and more and more obvious it will become that it's a mess right now. The job has to be reworked. It has to work with itself and others, it has to overcome its own weaknesses over time. That's the whole reason why Warrior is the ideal job right now. It's not at all because it just puts up massive numbers. It ensures its own survival while also boosting its damage. The DPS is just a benefit and the skills have been tailored around that.

Square, give that kind of shit to everyone, we need to be able to have built in obstacle destruction.

It may be nice that Swipe is may be used more often because of this, but I don't think that lowering the cost of gore blade, shield bash, and nerfing the benefits shield Swipe had is fixing more problem than they are not. In fact this barely fixes two problems.

The total changes to Paladin are incredibly minimal. Shield Swipe will result in roughly a 3% DPS increase on fights with Physical attacks to block throughout, and you'll save 30 TP per minute with the changes to Goring Blade. An adjustment this small won't make any meaningful movement in the problems Paladin faces in the current meta.

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Originally Posted by Shining_Tiger_Excalibur

I have a signature in my posts of a thread I took days to type out for suggesting changes they could make to the job that would be a way to fix it.

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I'll be heading over to your thread in just a bit once I've finished posting my initial thoughts here. I'll edit here as well when I've finished reading it fully.

When I look at these changes I see:
- TP consuption worsened by lack of Shield Swipe as a low-TP GCD. The 10-TP deduction on GB, used only every 24s, does not make up for the loss of the 20-TP deduction on Shield Swipe, which is ideally used once per GB to best time GB's DoT refresh.
- Blocking/parrying magic refused, even at reduced values.
- Block/dodge/parry RNG remains untouched. As the one job utilizing all three, PLD especially feels left in muck.
- PLD MT dps mostly unchanged. PLD OT dps was already in a fairly good place whereas MT dps floundered behind the other tanks. I'm fairly certain that if they were keeping its refresh component then that would be mentioned on the patch notes. Removing the ability for Shield Swipe to refresh on block removes the entirety of its MT benefits. Though those were few enough at 60, already, that will make a significant loss to spot-enmity in dungeon pulls and mitigation utility, and will feel like a shot to foot in any High-level roulette when you pop Bulwark for a free (at that time significantly enmity- and control-increasing) Shield Swipe spam.

Now, if they go ahead and keep the refresh component atop the 15s oGCD (Hell yes...), my only question--not even a complaint, really--is... why ever use a Tower Shield? We're not exactly mitigating 33% of anything out here, especially now that STR doesn't affect block values.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'll be heading over to your thread in just a bit once I've finished posting my initial thoughts here. I'll edit here as well when I've finished reading it fully.

When I look at these changes I see:
- TP consuption worsened by lack of Shield Swipe as a low-TP GCD. The 10-TP deduction on GB, used only every 24s, does not make up for the loss of the 20-TP deduction on Shield Swipe, which is ideally used once per GB to best time GB's DoT refresh.
- Blocking/parrying magic refused, even at reduced values.
- Block/dodge/parry RNG remains untouched. As the one job utilizing all three, PLD especially feels left in muck.
- PLD MT dps mostly unchanged. PLD OT dps was already in a fairly good place whereas MT dps floundered behind the other tanks. Removing the ability for Shield Swipe removes the entirety of its MT benefits. Though those were few enough at 60, already, that will make a significant loss to spot-enmity in dungeon pulls and mitigation utility, and will feel like a shot to foot in any High-level roulette when you pop Bulwark for a free (at that time significantly enmity- and control-increasing) Shield Swipe spam.

Now, if they go ahead and keep the refresh component atop the 15s oGCD (Hell yes...), my only question--not even a complaint, really--is... why ever use a Tower Shield? We're not exactly mitigating 33% of anything out here, especially now that STR doesn't affect block values.

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Well don't expect anything other than "well that would be sorta' cool" from my thread. I think it's got great ideas that were actually given to other jobs instead, which considering the mess right now, is a fucking tragedy.

Ok I haven't seen anyone touch up on this or if they have I apologize but..

What about when you pop Bulwark and spam SS...is doing that now (before 3.1) a DPS loss? because obviously after we cant do that.. so if its a DPS loss I'd like to know the reasoning why. If its not too much trouble.

Shield Swipe spam currently is a DPS loss. If A) Goring Blade is already on your target and B) You don't need threat (Halone) you should be using C) Royal Authority as it's higher average potency to complete a combo. If a boss is about to change phase with no chance of keeping your combo going (A1S, A3S only) you might see a slight gain by using a Shield Swipe before they go away, but only if your next move would have been a Fast Blade.

So basically never.